Stevie Nicks' Feeling on Michael Jackson?

[diamondsnake]

Has Stevie ever said anything about him? I know a lot of celebrities support him and I think it is sick. The fact that he gets a standing ovation at different music awards is so disturbing. I'm crossing my fingers that Stevie doesn't support him. Does anyone know?

Sorry if I am stiring things up on this board, I don't know if there are any MJ supporters here...

[misterbug]

I don't know if there are any MJ supporters here...

there's at least one: me.

why do you think it is sick that celebrities support him? why are you so disturbed that he receives a standing ovation?
what is wrong with celebrating an extraordinarily talented singer and dancer?

i hope the media's sensationalist approach to MJ coverage has not unduly influenced you. why are you so offended by MJ? have you heard both sides of the story?

i strongly suggest you visit the following websites before you unleash any wild judgments about mj:
http://www.geocities.com/plabcures/snarlindex.html
http://www.geocities.com/plabcures/peterpan.html

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by misterbug
there's at least one: me.

why do you think it is sick that celebrities support him? why are you so disturbed that he receives a standing ovation?
what is wrong with celebrating an extraordinarily talented singer and dancer?

i hope the media's sensationalist approach to MJ coverage has not unduly influenced you. why are you so offended by MJ? have you heard both sides of the story?

i strongly suggest you visit the following websites before you unleash any wild judgments about mj:
http://www.geocities.com/plabcures/snarlindex.html
http://www.geocities.com/plabcures/peterpan.html

Listen, the fact that he has admited that he slept in bed with a child that was not part of his family is enough for me to think he is a nut case.

[DeeGeMe]

Here's the rule that I generally apply to celebrities in these kind of situations. If a normal person was doing something--say my next door neighbor--how would I feel about or classify their actions? Illegal, immoral or just plain weird? If they fail my test, then the celeb does too. And I'm sorry, any 45-year old man who admitted he slept with children fails all three of those tests!

I highly suggest that if you think Michael Jackson is innocent, that you spend some time educating yourself on the psychological profile of the average child molester. You'll find some alarming similarities between them and Jackson. They don't ever think they are hurting their victim either and they usually categorize their interactions with children as "innocent, beautiful", etc. Sound familiar? And oh yes, when confronted, they also usually proclaim their innocence loudly all the while blaming the victim for misunderstanding their actions/intentions.

Neverland is a pedophile's dream come true-the perfect lure to attract victims with--again, another typical child molestor tactic. Have you stopped to think about the type of psychological damage that molestation does to the victim for the rest of their lives? If not, I suggest you look that up to.

And you know what--I love Stevie to death, but I could care less what presidential candidate she supports, whether she belives there is life on Mars or if Michael Jackson is innocent. I don't look to celebrities to give me insight into what I should be able to figure out myself.

[Merf]

Originally posted by misterbug
there's at least one: me.

why do you think it is sick that celebrities support him? why are you so disturbed that he receives a standing ovation?
what is wrong with celebrating an extraordinarily talented singer and dancer?

i hope the media's sensationalist approach to MJ coverage has not unduly influenced you. why are you so offended by MJ? have you heard both sides of the story?

i strongly suggest you visit the following websites before you unleash any wild judgments about mj:
http://www.geocities.com/plabcures/snarlindex.html
http://www.geocities.com/plabcures/peterpan.html

:rolleyes: I hardly believe Christopher was releasing any "wild judgements." You, of course, have the absolute right to support MJ as a fan. And I have the right to say what I'm about to say. Don't jump down the throat of those who think that he is guilty. Because quite honestly? Look at the facts! I would suggest that in addition to reading those websites above, that you personally check out information about pedophilia, THE CRIME that MJ is accused of. Because MJ fits the profile. Why is everyone so quick to blame the VICTIMS when a celebrity is involved? MJ may be a celebrity but NO ONE is above the law!!!

I am totally with DeeGeeMe 100% on everything she said.

[misterbug]

Here's the rule that I generally apply to celebrities...

Your rule is psychologically unsound. It has the same problem as those useless checkout aisle dream dictionaries. Sure, there are some dream images that are suggestive in any context. However, for an accurate reading, each dream symbol needs to be analyzed in the context of the patient's individual experience. Similarly, a man's action needs to be looked at relative to his own life experience. You can't just say "Aha! Molester!" without legitimate evidence.

My point is that MJ is by no means "normal", and this is largely due to his upbringing. He was forced to perform all the time--against his wishes. His father belittled him constantly. His father beat him with electrical cords and belts, to the degree that the mere sight of Old Man Jackson induced vomiting.

So, am I unreasonable to conclude that MJ was deprived of a childhood in the full sense of the word? No. MJ never got to play with his friends, he was just shuttled off to the next concert or TV venue.

Consequently, I am much more inclined to think that Neverland is not a pedophile's dream, but rather a child's dream. Specifically, it fulfills the childhood wishes MJ was never allowed to live. And now that he is a multimillionaire, why shouldn't he be allowed to live his dreams? Yes, it may be eccentric, but if he wants to ride a merry-go-round at age 45 because he never got to at age 5, who are we to condemn him? One of the links I provided above offers a convincing argument that MJ is trying to look like Peter Pan. No surprise, considering MJ's many references to the boy who is eternally young (e.g. statues in Neverland, mention of him in interviews).

Ok, you might now ask, what about all the children he "sleeps with" and invites over? In fact, they are merely peers not objects of sexual desire. MJ's emotional growth was halted because he was forced into adult situations long before he should have been. So he is simply trying to live his childhood. The "profile of a pedophile" keeps getting waved in my face, but another significant aspect of it is that the wrongdoer is an emotional adult. MJ thinks of "sleeping with kids" like we thought of slumber parties when we were 10 or 12 years old. Just because he has a 45 year old body does not mean he is operating on a commensurate emotional level.

Moreover, if we are hypothesizing that MJ was a molester, it seems highly unusual that allegations would occur a decade apart. Like gambling, alcohol, and other psychological addictions, pedophelia is a compulsion. A ten year span between incidents is unheard of in actual pedophiles. And surely if MJ was committing sex crimes during those ten years, we would have heard a lot more allegations. For me, the evidence to support a claim of pedophilia is lacking.

And oh yes, when confronted, they also usually proclaim their innocence loudly all the while blaming the victim for misunderstanding their actions/intentions.

When did MJ claim the victim was at fault? And I'm not sure I can agree with the argument that proclamations of innocence are: 1) significant characteristics of pedophiles; and 2) grounds for greater suspicion(!).

[misterbug]

Listen, the fact that he has admited that he slept in bed with a child that was not part of his family is enough for me to think he is a nut case.

Well, if by "admited" you mean "admitted", then that statement is incorrect. In fact, MJ admitted that if kids are staying over, he lets them sleep in the bed while he takes his repose upon the FLOOR.

[SteveMacD]

While I fully subscribe to innocent until proven guilty, Jacko did one thing that suggests to me that he is guilty. When he made the absurd comments about the police roughing him up and that he was still in pain from the handcuffs, he was clearly trying to get sympathy. That's a tactic of guilty people. When they get in trouble, they try to be a victim.

As for blaming it on his up-bringing, I don't buy it. There are many people who grew up in extremely difficult circumstances. They, too, didn't have normal childhoods. But, they don't do the type of weird things Jacko does.

[misterbug]

There are many people who grew up in extremely difficult circumstances

That is another generalization. But how many people grew up with exactly the same circumstances as MJ? Nobody but MJ. So the argument that many people had difficult childhoods... is not valid at all. It doesn't work.

[diamondsnake]

Hey, no one answered my question. Has Stevie ever made a statement about MJ? I know it shouldn't matter what she has to say, but I truely would not respect her as much (as a person) if she supported him- the same man that admits to sleeping with children, however "innocent" it may be.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by misterbug
That is another generalization. But how many people grew up with exactly the same circumstances as MJ? Nobody but MJ. So the argument that many people had difficult childhoods... is not valid at all. It doesn't work.

Your right. Many people have much worse childhoods. Raised in foster care, being beaten by their parent, having a life threatening disease like cancer, losing their parents, depression, the list goes on and on. And almost all of these people survive and turn into healthy adults.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by SteveMacD
While I fully subscribe to innocent until proven guilty, Jacko did one thing that suggests to me that he is guilty. When he made the absurd comments about the police roughing him up and that he was still in pain from the handcuffs, he was clearly trying to get sympathy. That's a tactic of guilty people. When they get in trouble, they try to be a victim.

As for blaming it on his up-bringing, I don't buy it. There are many people who grew up in extremely difficult circumstances. They, too, didn't have normal childhoods. But, they don't do the type of weird things Jacko does.

This is exactly why Jackson has lost so much credibility. He has lied about so many other things unrelated to the sexual abuse allegations that it is hard to find him trustworthy. Lying about plastic surgery is one thing, but going on TV and spending practically the entire interview talking about how much pain you are in because of the police "mistreatment" is another. He just cannot keep his trap shut!

He has shown complete disregard and disrespect for the court system and the charges filed against him by showing up very late to his arraingment and by dancing on his SUV and having an party back at Neverland after the court appearance. Insanity. Even his lawyers can't control him, and that is a BIG problem.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by misterbug
My point is that MJ is by no means "normal", and this is largely due to his upbringing. He was forced to perform all the time--against his wishes. His father belittled him constantly. His father beat him with electrical cords and belts, to the degree that the mere sight of Old Man Jackson induced vomiting.

So, am I unreasonable to conclude that MJ was deprived of a childhood in the full sense of the word? No. MJ never got to play with his friends, he was just shuttled off to the next concert or TV venue.

Consequently, I am much more inclined to think that Neverland is not a pedophile's dream, but rather a child's dream. Specifically, it fulfills the childhood wishes MJ was never allowed to live. And now that he is a multimillionaire, why shouldn't he be allowed to live his dreams? Yes, it may be eccentric, but if he wants to ride a merry-go-round at age 45 because he never got to at age 5, who are we to condemn him? One of the links I provided above offers a convincing argument that MJ is trying to look like Peter Pan. No surprise, considering MJ's many references to the boy who is eternally young (e.g. statues in Neverland, mention of him in interviews).

Ok, you might now ask, what about all the children he "sleeps with" and invites over? In fact, they are merely peers not objects of sexual desire. MJ's emotional growth was halted because he was forced into adult situations long before he should have been. So he is simply trying to live his childhood. The "profile of a pedophile" keeps getting waved in my face, but another significant aspect of it is that the wrongdoer is an emotional adult. MJ thinks of "sleeping with kids" like we thought of slumber parties when we were 10 or 12 years old. Just because he has a 45 year old body does not mean he is operating on a commensurate emotional level.

How do you know they aren't objects of desire for him? Whether or not he is an "emotional adult" does not mean that he doesn't have sexual desires. He is a grown man, and with that comes sexual desire in one form or another. Now that his children's paternity may be in question, we don't know if he ever even slept with Debbie Rowe. Too many things don't add up.

[DeeGeMe]

Originally posted by misterbug
A ten year span between incidents is unheard of in actual pedophiles. And surely if MJ was committing sex crimes during those ten years, we would have heard a lot more allegations. For me, the evidence to support a claim of pedophilia is lacking.
When did MJ claim the victim was at fault? And I'm not sure I can agree with the argument that proclamations of innocence are: 1) significant characteristics of pedophiles; and 2) grounds for greater suspicion(!).

Are you out of your tree? Pedophiles absolutely tend to go on for years and years until they are locked up. You've got to understand that they are sexually attracted to children. It's their sexual orientation. As a result, they have one of the lowest "cure" rates among any criminal offenders and/or sexual offenders! I worked in law enforcement for several years and Investigators, Victim Advocates & Sex Crime Experts will all tell you that they honestly don't believe that pedophiles can ever be "cured". It is not unusual for a pedophile to molest generations of someone within their reach--i.e, their own family or a neighbor, etc. In the criminal population, pedophiles and child murderers are considered to be the lowest of the low.

The Today show this morning had a fascinating interview with Maureen Orth of Vanity Fair. In an issue that will hit the stands next week she details the latest allegations against MJ and documents other cases where the parents and the victims were too intimidated by MJ and his thug lawyers to proceed, or that they were just flat out paid off. Orth is a very highly regarded investigative journalist and has been following Jackson for 10 years now. She alleges that MJ has paid off the families of his victims with cash, cars, etc. The patterns are all similar--he prefers victims who come from broken homes--he stashes the parents away in seperate guest houses, he intimidates his own employees from testifying against him, he gives his victims alcohol in soft drink cans & plies them with pornography to weaken their inhibations. Yeah, that's normal behavior all right.

Listen, I'm glad you're so thrilled with him and that you think that his "bad childhood" gives him free reign to molest children. You're the ideal juror for his upcoming trial. He wants people just like you on the jury so he can get off and continue to molest children. Why he doesn't even need to supply his excuses--he's got people like you who are all too willing to do it for him. I think it was PT Barnum who said something about suckers being born every day. Congratulations, you prove Mr. Barnum correct.

[misterbug]

I am NOT saying that his bad childhood gives him free reign to molest children (if I have not made it clear before, I feel MJ is totally innocent of molestation charges). I AM saying his upbringing is a good explanation for his child-like behavior, which suggests he is NOT a molestor.

This is exactly why Jackson has lost so much credibility. He has lied about so many other things unrelated to the sexual abuse allegations that it is hard to find him trustworthy. Lying about plastic surgery is one thing, but going on TV and spending practically the entire interview talking about how much pain you are in because of the police "mistreatment" is another. He just cannot keep his trap shut!

Where is your proof that he was lying about his pain? And even if he was, it just supports my theory that he is a child in his mind. It's hard to be more childlike than to exaggerate an injury to get something you want. Children lie like that all the time. I know I did.

Most of you people are confusing eccentricity with guilt.

Your right. Many people have much worse childhoods. Raised in foster care, being beaten by their parent, having a life threatening disease like cancer, losing their parents, depression, the list goes on and on. And almost all of these people survive and turn into healthy adults.

Anyone with any any actual psychological knowledge knows that you can't say, "Just because Mr. X's childhood seems TO ME worse than MJ's, MJ must be guilty. If other people with completely different upbringings can survive and become 'healthy,' MJ must be guilty." Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. I can name many examples of cases where the patient had a GOOD upbringing with perhaps one bad event, who showed much stranger pathology than somebody with a "bad" abusive upbringing.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally posted by misterbug
I am NOT saying that his bad childhood gives him free reign to molest children (if I have not made it clear before, I feel MJ is totally innocent of molestation charges). I AM saying his upbringing is a good explanation for his child-like behavior, which suggests he is NOT a molestor.



Where is your proof that he was lying about his pain? And even if he was, it just supports my theory that he is a child in his mind. It's hard to be more childlike than to exaggerate an injury to get something you want. Children lie like that all the time. I know I did.

Most of you people are confusing eccentricity with guilt.





Okay..you kind of proved other's points there...he's got a child-like mentality?? Children lie all the time!! Well....if he'll lie about something as ridiculous as plastic surgery (an actually think people will believe him) Then what's to stop him from lying about the molestations to save his own ass??

Also...didn't he have several siblings...who all grew up in the same family....now Latoya is eccentric...MJ is just plain chalk full of NUTS!!!!

[misterbug]

Listen, I'm glad you're so thrilled with him and that you think that his "bad childhood" gives him free reign to molest children. You're the ideal juror for his upcoming trial. He wants people just like you on the jury so he can get off and continue to molest children. Why he doesn't even need to supply his excuses--he's got people like you who are all too willing to do it for him. I think it was PT Barnum who said something about suckers being born every day. Congratulations, you prove Mr. Barnum correct.

First, Barnum said "There's one born every minute" (not day). If you are implying that I was sucked in by some smoke and mirrors act by MJ, think again.

MJ wants people like me on the jury because we have considered the evidence before just accusing him. You may find it hard to believe, but I have not always been an MJ supporter. At one time, years ago, I was like you--fumbling wildly in the dark, eager to point an accusing finger. Only when I began to look closer at the so-called "evidence" did I detect something rotten in the state of Denmark. Now that I have examined biographical details and looked closely at his eccentric behavior of today, I feel confident in proclaiming MJ is innocent.

I'm no sucker; I changed into an MJ supporter of my own volition after I examined all of the evidence. Furthermore, I have even persuaded other family members to my point of view, thanks to the strong evidence for MJ.

I would suggest you all take a serious look at the evidence, but since MJ-bashing is so safe, I doubt any of you will. As somebody above tried to say, there's a sucker born every minute. Well, you all seem to be eating up every little pellet of MJ misinformation doled out by the media. So, "congratulations, you prove Mr. Barnum correct".

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by misterbug
Where is your proof that he was lying about his pain? And even if he was, it just supports my theory that he is a child in his mind. It's hard to be more childlike than to exaggerate an injury to get something you want. Children lie like that all the time. I know I did.

Michael is NOT a child. Even if he is more like a child emotionally, he is an adult mentally and physically. He makes his own decisions about how to conduct himself, and should be held accountable. He is just used to controlling everything and everybody. He lives in a dream world of his own creation.

His lying about his pain and/or the reasons for it were evident by the fact that the video shows him thanking law enforcement for their kind treatment of him. It also shows him waving and flashing his "victory" sign with his "injured" arm when he is leaving the police station. Not to mention that during the interview, he said he couldn't raise his arm past a certain point because of the "terrible pain", and not one minute later, is seen on camera raising that same arm to smooth back his hair. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by misterbug
I am NOT saying that his bad childhood gives him free reign to molest children (if I have not made it clear before, I feel MJ is totally innocent of molestation charges). I AM saying his upbringing is a good explanation for his child-like behavior, which suggests he is NOT a molestor.

Anyone with any any actual psychological knowledge knows that you can't say, "Just because Mr. X's childhood seems TO ME worse than MJ's, MJ must be guilty. If other people with completely different upbringings can survive and become 'healthy,' MJ must be guilty." Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. I can name many examples of cases where the patient had a GOOD upbringing with perhaps one bad event, who showed much stranger pathology than somebody with a "bad" abusive upbringing.

Do you have some type of job/education credentials that would allow you to make these assertions about psychology and the pathology of pedofiles? Just wondering . . . .

[Tango]

. . . from Stevie or the rest of FM for that matter Christopher. One would assume they are focusing on their own matters right now. I guess most people are waiting until the verdict comes in, but chances are good many people will speak up. Stevie wasn't too thrilled with Madonna's using Britney for "PR", saying Madonna was much too "old." But the Jackson matter is totally different. I can't imagine Stevie, Fleetwood Mac or most of the public will give Michael Jackson much slack, talented or not, if he is found guilty. But the trial is hardly even underway yet. He IS talented. I give the man his due, including his day(S) in court.

[misterbug]

Okay..you kind of proved other's points there...he's got a child-like mentality??
Yes, I said that he is child-like emotionally.

Children lie all the time!!
Yep, I said that too.


Well....if he'll lie about something as ridiculous as plastic surgery (an actually think people will believe him) Then what's to stop him from lying about the molestations to save his own ass??
MJ's child-like mentality is shown by, among other things, lies about seemingly unimportant details. When children lie, they frequently lie about insignificant acts. But they cannot sustain a lie about something major that everybody is breathing down their necks about. Children are notoriously bad liars when it comes to something significant. I can think of countless examples where I could lie about something minor (comparable to MJ's plastic surgery), but broke down when I tried to keep a lie going about something major (comparable to the allegations). One time when I came home from the 3rd grade and my parent accused me of being in a fight, I tried to lie but broke down quickly.

Also, your logic is faulty: "He told a minor lie, therefore, he is likely to tell a major lie and any important statements he makes are to be called into question." So since I lied about why I was late to class the other day--a minor lie--does that mean I should be suspected of lying when I say, "I don't know anything about the virus that's sweeping the university."? After all, I did tell a minor lie. So what's to stop me from lying about the virus?

About the other family members...they were often part of the problem. For example, MJ's brothers would frequently have sexual intercourse with girls in the same room as MJ, who had to lay awake and listen in confusion and alarm. Don't forget that MJ was *the star* though, which brought added pressure, which was compounded by his younger age.

[misterbug]

Do you have some type of job/education credentials that would allow you to make these assertions about psychology and the pathology of pedofiles? Just wondering . . . .

Yes, I am graduating from Boston College this year having studied psychology and psychoanalysis.

[misterbug]

Michael is NOT a child. Even if he is more like a child emotionally, he is an adult mentally and physically. He makes his own decisions about how to conduct himself, and should be held accountable. He is just used to controlling everything and everybody. He lives in a dream world of his own creation.

I know that MJ is not an actual child. He is a physical adult. But an emotional child. As you said, he lives in a "dream world of his own creation" and is "used to controlling everything and everybody." It sounds like you are describing a spoiled brat who daydreams and has imaginary friends.

I feel that for MJ, sex is not of interest. Notice how he speaks in a constant falsetto (that is not his real voice; his real voice is much deeper, and one can catch it during his concerts when he is out of breath from dancing and the lower voice accidentally pops out). I think his use of a falsetto is a denial (either on a cs. or ucs. level) of his sexual maturity and "manhood". He may not even realize he is doing it.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by misterbug

Also, your logic is faulty: "He told a minor lie, therefore, he is likely to tell a major lie and any important statements he makes are to be called into question." So since I lied about why I was late to class the other day--a minor lie--does that mean I should be suspected of lying when I say, "I don't know anything about the virus that's sweeping the university."? After all, I did tell a minor lie. So what's to stop me from lying about the virus?


This is not faulty logic. This "lie in one, lie in all" idea is something that is used everyday in the criminal justice and court system. That is why Jackson is going to have an uphill battle when it comes to his credibility at trial. This is why no defendant show give a statement or interview to the media when charges are filed against them. More often than not, it just gives ammunition to the prosecution.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by misterbug
I know that MJ is not an actual child. He is a physical adult. But an emotional child. As you said, he lives in a "dream world of his own creation" and is "used to controlling everything and everybody." It sounds like you are describing a spoiled brat who daydreams and has imaginary friends.

He is spoiled. I don't see how anyone can not agree with that when you watch his "shopping spree" in Las Vegas. To me, spoiled means getting what you want, when you want it, all the time. That is Michael Jackson. For example, he showed up late to his court appearance simply because he didn't give a darn whether or not he was there on time. You can't use the excuse, "but I am Michael Jackson" as a way to get out of those types of responsibilities.

[misterbug]

Well, just becuase the court uses it doesn't mean it is correct. We all remember Johnny Cochran's logic: "If it does not fit, you must acquit."

He is spoiled. I don't see how anyone can not agree with that when you watch his "shopping spree" in Las Vegas. To me, spoiled means getting what you want, when you want it, all the time. That is Michael Jackson. For example, he showed up late to his court appearance simply because he didn't give a darn whether or not he was there on time. You can't use the excuse, "but I am Michael Jackson" as a way to get out of those types of responsibilities.
Precisely! I was going to use the shopping spree example myself. Such acts only go to prove he is an emotional child. MJ really IS a spoiled child, emotionally--something he never got to be when he was a physical child. The same goes for him jumping on top of his SUV after the first hearing. That seems like the act of an innocent child to me. If MJ really was guilty, I highly doubt he would be jumping all over the place with glee. So, I do agree that MJ wants to be and can afford to be a spoiled kid.

Am I the lone MJ supporter on the Ledge? I thought there was at least one other.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I for one will hold judgement until I hear the facts and evidence from the trial. I know better than to believe everything the media says, as well as everything a celebrity says.

If he is found guilty I will trust that and that will be the end of it for me, but until then I will continue to listen to and enjoy his music...and if he is found innocent I will continue to listen to his music.

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing..I think Stevie usually keeps her comments to herself about these sensitive subjects like this, and subjects like the war in Iraq..and politics..

Chris

[tommer]

just a thought:

imagine MJ in Oz, how many episodes could he survive?
:angel: :angel: :angel:

[DrummerDeanna]

I have not stated that I think Michael is guilty or anything, I, like some others, am waiting to hear more of what comes out of this whole ordeal, right now the media is filled with one side, and I am aware of that since I work in the media business.

What I do think, however, is that the man IS sick, he has problems and has lied about dumb things in the past. No, they may be simple little lies but once someone lies to me all trust is gone and I do think that is someone is willing to lie about little things then lies about big things are next. And perhaps MJ doesn't think he is lying (if he is) Many sick minds delude themselves so much that what may be a lie, to them is pure truth.

Now the court system is supposed to have an innocent until proven guilty stance, though it often times seems more like guilty until proven innocent. Either way, he's in this mess yet again and there are some disturbing facts brought to light.

But whatever the outcome...all I can do is sit back and accept whatever the court system finds in this case...

[greatdarkwing]

I felt a *little* bit bad for him until the interview where he said the police roughed him up....I would buy that if it was wrapped around a Stevie shawl!

That interview is just one of MANY things that has screwed MJ. Frankly he is full of it if he says the police abused him. Perfect example was when he moved his arm up to smooth his hair...PLEASE...the man is not all there. And when you take into account his sleeping in bed with children, something just does not add up. I do not care how much of a childhood you didnt have, that is just wrong. Sociology will tell you so.

~Alex

[dissention]

Michael jackson supporters do not have the facts or rationale to back up their support. They come across as over-zealous and just as crazy as Jacko himself.

On the other hand, people who have a shred of sanity can see him for what he truly is: an insane pervert.

I'd like to see someone come to the defense of Michael after those papers documenting his stalking and harrassing of the boy and his family bubbled to the surface.

Jacko is a pig and his public behavior makes him seem like a cold and careless man.

[greatdarkwing]

Originally posted by dissention
Michael

Jacko is a pig and his public behavior makes him seem like a cold and careless man.

I could not agree more! Thanks Dissention..

~Alex

[dissention]

Originally posted by greatdarkwing
I could not agree more! Thanks Dissention..

~Alex

You're quite welcome, Alex. :D :wavey:

[misterbug]

I certainly do not want to deny MJ could use some psychological treatment. He is not a child molester, but I'll be the first to admit he may need counseling. Let's remember, pedophilia is neither the ONLY explanation for MJ's eccentricities, nor the MOST LIKELY and SATISFACTORY (MJ shows many more non-pedophilic than pedophilic traits; of the latter, he shows few if any). Isn't the first part of that statement enough for at least reasonble doubt? I am constantly amazed that so many people can be so set in their opinion without having looked at all the available facts and theories.

For those of you (Tango, Drummer, Shangri) who state you want to wait until more evidence comes out, it is very refreshing to hear such a reasonable reaction to the allegations.

Michael jackson supporters do not have the facts or rationale to back up their support. They come across as over-zealous and just as crazy as Jacko himself.

I don't follow you. I think I have shown more support for my claims than anti-MJ folk have for theirs, and also, I have done a more complete job of fitting all of the circumstances into one theory. The only "rationale" and "facts" I have heard from the anti-MJ posters here are statements such as "Jacko is a pig," "Many people have difficult childhoods," "MJ is just plain chalk [sic] full of NUTS!!!!". These statements are just the same unfounded, biased blather the media spouts out every day. None of them would stand up in court.

And speaking of over-zealous:
People who have a shred of sanity can see him for what he truly is: an insane pervert.

I smell a witch-hunt afoot.

----

Here's a question: how do you anti-MJ people think MJ's facial metamorphosis fits into your child molestor theory? Can anybody posit a solid explanation that is more satisfactory than the eternal child (Peter Pan)/experience childhood theory?

[DeeGeMe]

Originally posted by misterbug
Can anybody posit a solid explanation that is more satisfactory than the eternal child (Peter Pan)/experience childhood theory? [/B]

Well, yes, I think I can. It would appear that he has such self-loathing regarding his own appearance that he literally is attempting to turn himself into someone else--ideally, a white woman--which is what he looks like these days. And a damn scary one at that.

I'm sorry, but no explanation that you could possibly offer me could ever defend the actions of a child molestor. And given that I've got a few more years of living over you and have actually worked in law enforcement, I can tell you right now that at the very least he ought to be serving a term for child endangerment--that whole dangling the kid off the balcony thing was enough for me.

Tell me, when the evidence comes out, as it's beginning to, and it's not pretty, what will your defense be then for him? That he was framed?

Why on earth would anyone want to frame him? Do you think Tommy Mottola wants MJ's records not to sell? I think he thinks that if he throws enough lies out there that the air will be so cloudy that people will come away confused. And clearly, you are quite confused youself to go to such great lengths to defend this creep.

I wish you well in your future career. May you never have to work with a child molestation victim.

[misterbug]

I will agree with you that he wants to change his appearance. But not into a white woman. He looks like no white woman I have ever seen, or want to. He DOES look like Peter Pan. I hope some of you have taken the time to look the photographic comparisons here:
http://www.geocities.com/plabcures/peterpan.html

It seems far more likely he wants to look like Peter Pan. Why, he lives on a ranch called Neverland! What more evidence do we need? And why would he want to turn into a white woman? I am unable to locate any other evidence to support that. Please show me evidence that supports the white woman hypothesis.

I'm sorry, but no explanation that you could possibly offer me could ever defend the actions of a child molestor.
But that is assuming from the start he is a child molester. Rather than looking at ALL of the evidence & arguments and THEN forming a conclusion, many are entering the debate with the PRESUPPOSITION he is a molester, thereby causing them to ignore or reject evidence that runs contrary to their belief.

Tell me, when the evidence comes out...
Wait, does this mean you KNOW what the evidence is?

And clearly, you are quite confused youself to go to such great lengths to defend this creep.
Well I was wondering when the ad hominem attack would rear its vicious little snout. It's always easier to attack your opponent personally when you have no good points with which to attack his arguments.

[dissention]

Originally posted by misterbug
Wait, does this mean you KNOW what the evidence is?

To be frank, none of us know more than what has been leaked.

It seems to me that you act as if you know the evidence and you know that Michael Jackson is innocent. You're quite zealous in demonstrating this. I, and others, are just as zealous when we say that he is guilty, yet you frown upon that behavior. Let me ask you, what makes your beliefs so superior? Because you think Jacko is innocent, you believe that it's okay for you to defend him as vidorously as we tear him down, when in all actuality, your beliefs are no better than ours.

So before you start screaming once again about us not knowing the evidence, quit with the moral superiority bull****; you're in the same boat as the rest of us.

[dissention]

Originally posted by misterbug
Well I was wondering when the ad hominem attack would rear its vicious little snout. It's always easier to attack your opponent personally when you have no good points with which to attack his arguments.

Be truthful: how was the little shindig at Neverland last week? Did you get to touch his lips?

Saline or wax? 'Fess up.

[misterbug]

So before you start screaming once again about us not knowing the evidence, quit with the moral superiority bull****; you're in the same boat as the rest of us.

I'm not screaming about not knowing the evidence, I'm writing that you all should look at the available evidence and facts before just lashing out. Do you feel think statements like "Jacko is a pig" and "MJ is just plain chalk [sic] full of NUTS!!!!" are well-thought out?
Be truthful: how was the little shindig at Neverland last week? Did you get to touch his lips?
I don't understand this question. Touch his lips how? Plus, I did not even attend the get-together at Neverland. I'm in Boston not the West Coast, and I did not receive an invitation.

[dissention]

Originally posted by misterbug
I'm not screaming about not knowing the evidence, I'm writing that you all should look at the available evidence and facts before just lashing out. Surely you don't think statements like "Jacko is a pig" and "MJ is just plain chalk [sic] full of NUTS!!!!" are well-thought out??


I don't understand this question. Touch his lips how? And why?? What does it mean? Plus, I did not even attend the get-together at Neverland. I'm in Boston not the West Coast, and I did not receive an invitation.

Would you attend if you got one? Probably. :rolleyes:

I've looked at the facts and they all support the boy, not Jacko. Do you honestly think that they would go to all this trouble over a he-said he-said kind of thing? That's rather ludicrous and delusional.

Unfortunately, I think your ardent support of this cold man clouds your objectivity. I, on the other hand, have looked at it objectively and believe the boy. I really had no opinion of the first case and was never a fan of Jackson's one way or the other, but when it came out that the descriptions the boy gave of Jacko's genitals matched up with him physically, I started to really question things. Then we find out about bedroom alarms (say it was to be safe from intruders all you want, it was like trying to get into Fort Knox), a secret room of unmarked videotapes, saying he sleeps with young boys, corroboration by lawyers of the child, death threats to the man who introduced the boy to Jacko, leaked documents that prove harrassment and stalking on the part of Jacko's camp towards the boy and his family (which Geragos knew about, yet never mentioned it), and Jacko's behavior over all of this; it really makes a person wonder about guilt.

With all that info and the endless amount of other info out there, how can you say that he is absolutely innocent? His freakish look and sleep tanks and monkeys and Elephant Man bones have nothing to do with this; it's his behavior towards children and his attitude about all of this. He's guilty as sin.

[dissention]

Misterbug--

Watch Primetime tonight on ABC. Some new details about Jacko's harrassment and documents are leaked.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by misterbug
Anyone with any any actual psychological knowledge knows that you can't say, "Just because Mr. X's childhood seems TO ME worse than MJ's, MJ must be guilty

You keep referring to this "psychological knowledge" of yours. The question arises: Did you acquire this knowledge as a psychologist or as a patient?

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You keep referring to this "psychological knowledge" of yours. The question arises: Did you acquire this knowledge as a psychologist or as a patient?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Now, now, Carne. :laugh:

[misterbug]

a secret room of unmarked videotapes, saying he sleeps with young boys, corroboration by lawyers of the child, death threats to the man who introduced the boy to Jacko, leaked documents that prove harrassment and stalking on the part of Jacko's camp towards the boy and his family (which Geragos knew about, yet never mentioned it), and Jacko's behavior over all of this; it really makes a person wonder about guilt.

Unmarked videotapes? If they exist, since they are unmarked, how can you tell what they are? Do they exist, or was that just a rumor?

Sleeping with young boys...he cedes the bed to the children and sleeps on the floor. He has admitted for him "sleeping with" doesn't have the sexual connotation.

Corroboration by lawyers of the child? So if a lawyer says his client is correct, we are automatically to accept that the client is correct?

Death threats to the man who introduced the boy to Jacko. This has nothing to do with MJ. The threats were probably sent by some anti-MJ zealot.

Stalking by "Jacko's camp". Ditto--if it's not MJ personally, it doesn't mean anything. And we don't know the motives of the alleged stalking.

Watch Primetime tonight on ABC. Some new details about Jacko's harrassment and documents are leaked.
I've got my VCR set. This show should be interesting if nothing else...

Did you acquire this knowledge as a psychologist or as a patient?
Very amusing. But in all seriousness, in order to become a certified psychoanalyst, you MUST undergo treatment yourself. Freud, the father of psychoanalysis, understood the importance not only of reading case studies, but also of being analyzed yourself by another analyst. Being analyzed yourself is a key aspect of becoming a well-trained analyst.

[dissention]

Originally posted by misterbug
Unmarked videotapes? If they exist, since they are unmarked, how can you tell what they are? Do they exist, or was that just a rumor?

Sleeping with young boys...he cedes the bed to the children and sleeps on the floor. He has admitted for him "sleeping with" doesn't have the sexual connotation.

Corroboration by lawyers of the child? So if a lawyer says his client is correct, we are automatically to accept that the client is correct?

Death threats to the man who introduced the boy to Jacko. This has nothing to do with MJ. The threats were probably sent by some anti-MJ zealot.

Stalking by "Jacko's camp". Ditto--if it's not MJ personally, it doesn't mean anything. And we don't know the motives of the alleged stalking.

Yes, they exist, they were one of the main things that were being searched for when they raided Neverland. A Jackos staffer snuck in and filmed the hidden rooms throughout the house and proceeded to open and film a secret room that was hidden behind a closet and faux concrete blocks that swiveled to expose the room. From top to bottom, it was stocked with videotapes. Just where everyone hides family movies, in a secret room behind a closet in the playroom, covered with cement blocks. ;)

As for what the lawyers said, I would hope that you'd believe the lawyers who represented the child. They are two of the most respected in CA and could stand to be dis-barred for lying. They've already said that they believe him and that he should win an Oscar if he's faking it.

No, MJ fans did not threaten him; the calls came from Neverland. This was confirmed last week on MSNBC and the police are investigating it.

So, if Jacko orders someone to follow the family wherever they go and to call them constantly and bang on their door constantly and take pictures of them, it has nothing to do with him? And when a woman ordered a hit on her daughters cheerleading nemesis, she wasn't guilty of anything because it wasn't her that would follow through with the murder?

You're losing your argument and you have rather cheesy rationale, bud.

[dissention]

Originally posted by misterbug
I've got my VCR set. This show should be interesting if nothing else...

I know, it's just going to be more racists trying to call Michael a pedafire. :rolleyes:

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by misterbug
I think I have shown more support for my claims than anti-MJ folk have for theirs, and also, I have done a more complete job of fitting all of the circumstances into one theory. The only "rationale" and "facts" I have heard from the anti-MJ posters here are statements such as "Jacko is a pig," "Many people have difficult childhoods," "MJ is just plain chalk [sic] full of NUTS!!!!". These statements are just the same unfounded, biased blather the media spouts out every day. None of them would stand up in court.

:confused: :confused:

The "only" rationale you have heard from the anti-MJ posters is that he "is a pig", etc.? I don't think that is quite correct. I am still waiting for you to respond to my issues about his deception involving the so-called police mistreatment as well as his complete disregard for rules, like showing up to court late. I fail to see how those things fit into your "rationale" that MJ is an emotional child.

I also don't follow how you have determined what would "stand up in court" when you don't even think it is right that MJ's credibility could be impeached because of all his "small lies". :confused:

[diamondsnake]

Since I started this stupid thread (yippee for me :woohoo: ) I don't mind saying this:


Mister Bug you are a complete Idiot to defend such a creep!

Maybe Mr. Jackson's death white skin is blinding you from the truth: He is complete freak and whatever childhood trauma he faced does not excuse his behavior. Case closed!

Now I can understand people who defend Martha Stewart (her charges aren't very serious- who doesn't lie?), but to defend a 40-year-old man that seduces children is disgusting.

[DeeGeMe]

Originally posted by misterbug
Very amusing. But in all seriousness, in order to become a certified psychoanalyst, you MUST undergo treatment yourself. Freud, the father of psychoanalysis, understood the importance not only of reading case studies, but also of being analyzed yourself by another analyst. Being analyzed yourself is a key aspect of becoming a well-trained analyst.

Skip the future career in psychology. Why not consider a career as a criminal defense attorney instead? I'm sure that pedophiles everywhere would be happy to have you on their side. You could even specialize in celebrity sex crimes--you know, defending the Kobe Bryants, Marv Alpert's, Mike Tyson's and MJ's of this world.

[DeeGeMe]

Confidential to Jake and Christopher: You ROCK!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake

[SIZE=4]Mister Bug you are a complete Idiot to defend such a creep![/SIZE

Come on, now! He's probably just a member of the ACLU!:laugh:

[Mad4stevie]

I think it is important to keep in mind that there is a BIG, BIG difference between a REASON for being a freak, and an EXCUSE for being one.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by DeeGeMe
Skip the future career in psychology. Why not consider a career as a criminal defense attorney instead? I'm sure that pedophiles everywhere would be happy to have you on their side. You could even specialize in celebrity sex crimes--you know, defending the Kobe Bryants, Marv Alpert's, Mike Tyson's and MJ's of this world.

No he shouldn't be a lawyer because he has not even made me think twice about giving MJ the benefit of the doubt (not that there is any doubt).

[sparky]

Originally posted by misterbug
Children are notoriously bad liars when it comes to something significant. I can think of countless examples where I could lie about something minor (comparable to MJ's plastic surgery)

On what planet is his spectacular facial mutilation "minor" ? The accumulated weeks, or perhaps months of recovery from what are certainly a dozen or more surgical procedures would qualify cumulatively as a major event in anyone's life. Certainly, he has spent more time in hospitals and in recovery from cosmetic procedures than the average person.

Frankly, this "minor" issue has resulted in transforming him into a person who is not recognizable as the same race as he was, let alone the same person. He scarcely looks human anymore. If that's minor, I guess child molestation is like a hangnail.

[Johnny Stew]

Everyone has strong opinions on the Michael Jackson situation, but PLEASE refrain from insulting people for their opinions, and from personal attacks.

Consider this a warning.

[misterbug]

I'm going to stop trying to defend MJ in this forum (no, I am not conceding). It is not the place for it, and the argument has degenerated into namecalling, personal attacks, and attempts at jokes.

Look at the kind of "arguments" some people have resorted to:Mister Bug you are a complete Idiot to defend such a creep!
Why not consider a career as a criminal defense attorney instead? I'm sure that pedophiles everywhere would be happy to have you on their side.
(p.s. who whoever posted the second quote--do I detect the implication that my arguments are not only convincing enough to get the innocent off, but also to free the guilty such as Marv Albert, etc.?)


ETA: Heather I just read your post re: claims of police brutality & MJ's disregard for rules. Did you see the bruises on his arm during the interview? And about being late, because of the mob scene at the court (100s and 100s of MJ supporters and fans) it took him ages to travel even a short distance.

[dissention]

Originally posted by sparky
On what planet is his spectacular facial mutilation "minor" ? The accumulated weeks, or perhaps months of recovery from what are certainly a dozen or more surgical procedures would qualify cumulatively as a major event in anyone's life. Certainly, he has spent more time in hospitals and in recovery from cosmetic procedures than the average person.

Frankly, this "minor" issue has resulted in transforming him into a person who is not recognizable as the same race as he was, let alone the same person. He scarcely looks human anymore. If that's minor, I guess child molestation is like a hangnail.

Doll, he only had two operations...


...that day.

:laugh:

[DeeGeMe]

Originally posted by misterbug
(p.s. who whoever posted the second quote--do I detect the implication that my arguments are not only convincing enough to get the innocent off, but also to free the guilty such as Marv Albert, etc.?)


That would be a no.

[dissention]

Originally posted by misterbug
ETA: Heather I just read your post re: claims of police brutality & MJ's disregard for rules. Did you see the bruises on his arm during the interview? And about being late, because of the mob scene at the court (100s and 100s of MJ supporters and fans) it took him ages to travel even a short distance.

It wasn't a mob scene until he made it one. The police cordoned off a six foot wide path for Michael to walk through, yet he chose to go shake hands, give hugs, and sign ****. He was *already* late by 15 minutes before he started his fan club meeting outside the courtroom.

As for his arm, it's absolute bull. He said his shoulder was dislocated and that he couldn't even lift his arm up. He said he was in pain every hour of the day. Yeah, he probably just wanted an excuse to take pain pills...again. During that same interview, he used his "bad arm" to smooth out his hair! Then after court, he hoisted himself up on top of the roof of his SUV!

Good lord; you will do anything to support this man, even believe his lies.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by misterbug
ETA: Heather I just read your post re: claims of police brutality & MJ's disregard for rules. Did you see the bruises on his arm during the interview? And about being late, because of the mob scene at the court (100s and 100s of MJ supporters and fans) it took him ages to travel even a short distance.

To me, the bruises appear to be too high on his arm to even appear to be related to the handcuffs. Anyway, he said it was his shoulder that was hurt . . . but that didn't seem to be the case based upon the video that showed him waving with that arm to the crowd . . .

As far as showing up to court late - that is a HUGE NO-NO. I am a person who is probably about 5 minutes late everywhere I go, EXCEPT to court (I am a lawyer). I am always early when I go there; judges hate to be kept waiting. And it really isn't an excuse to a judge that there was traffic; their response will always be that you should have planned in advance for that :)

[CarneVaca]

Frankly, the case will probably get thrown out. The judge will call a mistrial after it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Jackson is not human. He's 50 percent botox, 20 percent high-tech polymer, 22 percent synthetic rubber and 8 percent god knows what at this point. How can you sentence an it?

[DeeGeMe]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Frankly, the case will probably get thrown out. The judge will call a mistrial after it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Jackson is not human. He's 50 percent botox, 20 percent high-tech polymer, 22 percent synthetic rubber and 8 percent god knows what at this point. How can you sentence an it?

In the first Men in Black film, wasn't MJ supposed to be one of the aliens that the MIB were keeping tabs on? Makes sense to me--he does resemble what I suppose an alien life form might look like. Although, you'd certainly hope they'd be more intelligent.

[Vianna]

Re: Michael-the whole thing is so sad to me.

In a way you can see his numerous cosmetic surgeries as a way of getting rid of who he is-which is a suicide in a way. Most of us have something about the way we look that we don't like; even if we are wealthy enough for cosmetic surgery, we'd fix that one thing. But as others have said here and it's certainly true, MJ is hardly recognizable anymore. That's destruction of self, in my humble opinion, and to me that's very sad. I'm sorry he could not accept himself as he was.

As for sleeping with children, none of us was there or knows the full story. I doubt MJ is sleeping with children in the way most of us conceive of sleeping with children, that is, as an act of a pedophile. He lives in a fantasy world and I doubt he touches earthly reality very often.

The best thing that could happen to him would be for the judge or whoever deals with this to get him some good psychiatric help, and to try to save this man. He is enormously talented and this whole thing is just such a shame.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Everyone has strong opinions on the Michael Jackson situation, but PLEASE refrain from insulting people for their opinions, and from personal attacks.

Consider this a warning.

Thanks, JS. While it's obvious to me the "police brutality" was a lie and I have no patience with "bad childhood" excuses, I don't think anyone is helping their cause by attacking the opposition on a personal level. A lot of people have been giving some good evidence that rebuts misterbug's points. However, I've found that if people mix personal invective with intelligent discussion and hard facts, they actually distract from their argument, and leave undecided readers with a bad taste in their mouths. Yeah, the choir members will be giving the debater lots of high-fives, but it sure won't help them get too many new converts.

Just something we can all keep in mind.

[Lala]

Did anyone actually answer the original question?

I don't have the patience to read through 5 pages of arguments about MJ, but I would like to know Stevie's feelings.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Lala
Did anyone actually answer the original question?

I don't have the patience to read through 5 pages of arguments about MJ, but I would like to know Stevie's feelings. There really is no factual answer to the original question, I'm afraid.

To the best of my recollection, Stevie has never discussed Michael Jackson in the press, nor has she spoken out in regards to the latest situation.

The only interaction we've witnessed between the two, was at Bill Clinton's Inaugural gala in January of 1993.
Mr. Clinton was standing on stage, next to Stevie (who was in the center of the stage, in front of Mick's drumkit, as she usually is)... when other celebrities were ushered up on stage during the song, Michael walked right up and positioned himself between Stevie and Clinton (most likely to assure that his face was in all the morning newspapers).
Stevie acknowledged his arrival, but went right back to singing "Don't Stop."
Other than that, the two didn't interact.

So based on that, it's impossible to surmise what she thinks of him.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
There really is no factual answer to the original question, I'm afraid.

To the best of my recollection, Stevie has never discussed Michael Jackson in the press, nor has she spoken out in regards to the latest situation.

The only interaction we've witnessed between the two, was at Bill Clinton's Inaugural gala in January of 1993.
Mr. Clinton was standing on stage, next to Stevie (who was in the center of the stage, in front of Mick's drumkit, as she usually is)... when other celebrities were ushered up on stage during the song, Michael walked right up and positioned himself between Stevie and Clinton (most likely to assure that his face was in all the morning newspapers).
Stevie acknowledged his arrival, but went right back to singing "Don't Stop."
Other than that, the two didn't interact.

So based on that, it's impossible to surmise what she thinks of him.

From the look on her face when Jackson paraded onto the stage, she was ready to beat him with one of her boots and strangle him with her tambo ribbons. She didn't seem like a happy camper. Pop in your tape of it and watch! :nod: :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
From the look on her face when Jackson paraded onto the stage, she was ready to beat him with one of her boots and strangle him with her tambo ribbons. She didn't seem like a happy camper. Pop in your tape of it and watch! :nod: :laugh: *lol*
Well, I started to write, "Stevie acknowledged his arrival with a less-than-thrilled look on her face," but I wanted to be kind. :lol:

But given that she was in the middle of singing, it really is kind of hard to tell exactly how she felt about the stunt, based on her facial expressions.

[Johnny Stew]

I thought I had a pic of Stevie looking directly at Jacko, as he got between her and Clinton, but I can't seem to find it.

I love the look on her face in this pic though...
"If that skinny little twerp thinks he's going to upstage me, he's got another think coming!" :laugh:

[SteveMacD]

Every time I see that, I can't help but feel bad for Stevie. That was probably one of the biggest nights of her career, and she looked awful. :( She looks, and sounds, so much better these days.

[strandinthewind]

I might have missed this if it has been posted already, but I remember reading that Stevie went to a party either for or given by MJ (perhaps for E. Taylor) at Disneyland in the early 90's.

[Lala]

Originally posted by SteveMacD
Every time I see that, I can't help but feel bad for Stevie. That was probably one of the biggest nights of her career, and she looked awful. :( She looks, and sounds, so much better these days.

:nod: uhhu

Look at that clenched fist! Definitely pissed! LOL...who knows.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I thought I had a pic of Stevie looking directly at Jacko, as he got between her and Clinton, but I can't seem to find it.

I love the look on her face in this pic though...
"If that skinny little twerp thinks he's going to upstage me, he's got another think coming!" :laugh:

Stevie is ten years older now but looks a million and thirty eight times better today. Maybe it was just the medication though, because she looks moon-faced. I can't look at this picture. It is not my favorite.

By the way, what was MJ doing at this party anyway?

[Ghosty]

One of two people are lying. Either the boy who said MJ violated him, or MJ (and I have not heard specifics, so we can't assume what that violation was - unless someone else has heard news on that?). I heard the boy has been in therapy and finally told his therapist he was violated. ???

Anyways, I won't convict anyone without hearing all the facts. But I will say this. I would never let my daughter sleep over his house. Nor would I ever visit if ever invited. And it didn't take this molestation accusation, or that last one to make me feel this way. The man has a problem.I can't see where there is any doubt of that.

And he doesn't have to be actually even having sex or even molesting a child to cause emotional and mental harm. I have read articles about kids who sleep in their own parents' beds, or in beds when visiting relatives. Nothing sexual is going on. But at a certain age, pyschologists and psychiatrists say it is not good, and emotionally damaging to the child. Period. MJ is not an exception to this

And so what if MJ is child-like himself? That does not change the fact that he *IS* an adult, and it is not recommended that adults sleep with kids. Furthermore, if he is emotionally a child, he should not be given responsibilty for taking care of children, if he is emotionally a child himself. Seems to me he needs deep therapy to heal from his childghood, not giant sleep overs where he pulls other regular, innocent children into MJ's own fantasy, unreal world. He says he was not brought up normally, and resents that. Well being brought to a "magic palace" where all your dreams come true, you get everything you could possibly dream of, and you sleep with adults, when at home in the average household, you are taught to sleep in your own bed, - all that is also not a real childhood. One extreme to another.


I think there was something really wrong with any person who would dangle their baby, or any baby out a window/balcony. If I did that with my child, I'd have been arrested or my child wouldhave been taken away until they investigated me. So to say he is being condemned because he's famous is actually the opposite of the truth. And he makes his kids wear veils over their heads. If I did that, again, I'd be seeing a therapist and my kid would probably be taken away for a while.

Also - he says he can never go anywhere to even the grocery store. Well,other celebs do. They just don't wear their celeb clothes and travel with their celeb mob. He is not the only big huge successful star out there. Others manage to shop and sneak into stores here and there and live a somewhat normal life, considering. He could disguise himself, *IF* he really wanted to.

It needs to go to trial, and let him be judged there for this crime. But I myself would never send my child to him. Never. This is my own common sense as a mother who loves her child and does not trust people just because they are rich or seem "child-like" themselves. If you see wormholes in an apple, chances are there are, or were worms. I am not about to bite into it to take the chance that maybe some are still in there. It's common sense.

[borealic]

Another overdramatic post from Diamondsnake.....:rolleyes:

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by misterbug
Well, if by "admited" you mean "admitted", then that statement is incorrect. In fact, MJ admitted that if kids are staying over, he lets them sleep in the bed while he takes his repose upon the FLOOR.

Why doesn't he just sleep in another room? I'm sure his estate has plenty of bedrooms so that M.J. doesn't have to sleep on the floor when he has little guests over. He shouldn't even be sleeping in the same room with them!

I find it funny how people try to explain and therefore excuse his disturbing behavior just because he was denied a childhood. Lots of people have less than perfect childhoods but don't act like complete kooks! The fact that M.J.'s rich and famous blinds people from facing the facts. And yes, if he was our friend or neighbor and not the famous Michael Jackson he would be scrutinized and villified without question. He'd be behind bars!

[Janet]

If I hear one more time that MJ couldn't have a normal childhood I will scream. I really will.

POOR kid had alot of talent, got famous and was a millionaire.

POOR child made a choice and BEGGED to be famous.

POOR child had all his dreams come true, was living out his dream and was put up as this wonder child for all to love.

WHATEVER!!!!!!!!

So he didn't get to play baseball or GI Joe's? I'm sure that is what scarred him for life. And I'm sure he wouldn't have played with either one anyway...

I know kids who would give their right arm just to be able to have a tiny bit of the money and love that Micheal had. Jesus Christ! I have NOOOO pity for him.

He got ALL that he wanted but he made the choice...he chose his destiny and all he should be doing now is kicking himself for being such a dumb *uck.

Sorry, I just think his childhood-NOT an excuse. Mine sucked too but I'm not sharing beds with small kids.

[Hawkeye]

when I watch that special that came out in February 2003, the thing that disturbs me the MOST isn't really the thing about the kids it's the utterly DISGUSTING amount of money he has and he spends it. The way he walks into a store and just buys something for 200,000 dollars like its nothing!!! It just pisses me off that someone can just spend money like that while we common people struggle to get good seats at Fleetwood Mac concerts.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by borealic
Another overdramatic post from Diamondsnake.....:rolleyes:

Okay, I'm sorry.:shrug: