An informal survey

[BklynBlue]

Hi,
I was hoping for some help with an informal survey. I'm curious as to when most people, especially in the U.S., first became aware of the Peter Green era Fleetwood Mac.
My theory is that most listeners today found these recordings by working their way backwards from the Buckingham / Nicks LPs / CDs which most likely introduced them to the band.
I may be completely wrong in my thinking here (wouldn't be the first time, ask my wife) and I realize age would play a large part; though I was too young to purchase the records when they were released, my older brother was not and though he had Mayall and Cream and Hendrix, neither he nor the older brothers (or sisters) of any of my friends, who's record collections we would inherit as we got older, ever had any Fleetwood Mac.
I never heard the band on the radio, although I grew up in New York and most rock radio was "free format" (oh for those days once more!)
The first time I heard the Green era FM was on a "House of Blues" radio program promoting the re-issue of the "Blues Jam in Chicago" sessions on CD.
Growing up, I'd never seen any but the post Blue Horizon LPs in the stores - (the artwork on Mystery to Me and Heroes Are Hard To Find guaranteed I'd never pick those up!) -
but anyway, I discovered the Green years through my interest in The Blues - I'd love to know how others found their way to it -
thanks in advance

[chiliD]

The VERY short version:

An older cousin, who lived in Boston (I live in California), introduced me to John Mayall's Bluesbreakers back in 1966. Became a big Clapton fan (I hadn't known he was in one of my favorite bands, The Yardbirds then). When I read he left Mayall to co-form Cream, I didn't think there would be anyone who could step into his shoes. Enter Peter Green. Later, I read he'd left to form his own band. I DID hear "Black Magic Woman" early on...but then didn't hear anything by Fleetwood Mac again until "Oh Well". That hooked me; been a Mac fan ever since, through good times & bad, and all the personnel changes.

[greenfire]

"My theory is that most listeners today found these recordings by working their way backwards from the Buckingham / Nicks LPs / CDs which most likely introduced them to the band."

--BklynBlue


I do support your theory but thought I would add a different perspective on it. Strangely enough, I am a relatively new fan but I did start from the back and gradually worked my way forward, skipping around a bit. I still haven't gotten to Rumours!

When I first started with FM in Sept 1996. I had been reading about them in a Rolling Stone book. I was familiar with "Black Magic Woman" but associated it with Santana and didn't have a clue that it was a Peter Green FM original. I never knew FM existed prior to 1975. I read that they began as a trad. Blues band and about their #1 British hit in 68 with "Albatross". I was really curious what they sounded like...so I tried to investigate. I couldn't find the album with "Albatross". The only one the record store could get that had "Albatross" was The Chain box set. I think even on cassette it was $40 some dollars and on cd over $100. It was more than I could spend to just hear their sound. I found I could get Then Play On from 69 and figured this would be a good indicator of the early FM.

Upon first hearing, I didn't really like it. I really don't know what I expected but it really wasn't quite what I thought I would like. I had never really listened to Blues prior to this. I was a bit disappointed and just forgot about it for awhile. I then listened to it again a couple months later figuring there just had to be something to this stuff. I listened to it a few times and yeah, I was starting to get it. Ok, yeah, this is good,....wow, Hey...this is GREAT! I kept going from there. Bare Trees was the next one. I had heard what I would come to know as "Sentimental Lady" but had never heard this version. It was funny, I had always liked that song but never really knew who it was. I found out in a BIG way!

[BklynBlue]

thank you both for your replies -

Couple of questions:

1) ChiliD - Were you able to find the Blue Horizon LPs, FM's or other BH artists (Chicken Shack, Duster Bennett, Dave Kelly etc.)during the years the label was active?

2) Greenfire - did you find that the Internet was helpful in tracking down titles otherwise not available or in obtaining information to help in making a purchasing decision?

Greenfire, I know exactly what you're talking about - the first Fleetwood Mac I picked up was the "Live at the BBC" collection, having read a positive write up in a guitar magazine.
Like you, I didn't quite know what to make of it. It was all over the map. The only tracks I knew from this line up at the time, were "Black Magic Woman", "Albatross", "Watch Out" and "I Can't Hold Out". Which actually should have prepared me for the eclecticism found on the two BBC discs - but for some reason, I expected, and wanted just straight forward Blues - or maybe something closer to Cream :0!
I returned it, (there was a skip in "Jumping At Shadows") but over time, I found myself thinking a about the tracks on there that I really did like, and now I wanted them!
One day, (I remember becasuse it was one of the few times I was flush with cash) I spotted the Blue Horizon box, liked the price point and bought it. Only gamble I ever made that paid off like that!
Here's what I was looking for! And I've been building my collection since then.

Again, thanks for taking the time, look forward to hearing from you again

[ShamHy89]

"My theory is that most listeners today found these recordings by working their way backwards from the Buckingham / Nicks LPs / CDs which most likely introduced them to the band."

Well, I am certainly living proof of your theory. I began with the Rumours Era and worked my way backwards. I find that I like the pre-BN era better, and that was judging by the Bob Welch period in the band. Now, I am finally discovering Peter Green, as I just bought Then Play On and the Blue Horizon Set about a month ago. (Both of which i am still listening through and appreciating *slowly*) I had KNOWN of PG, but it is just now that I am becoming familiar with his work in FM.

[greenfire]

BlkynBlue,

I like that Eddie Vetter quote:

"All the rusted signs we ignore throughout our lives, choosing the shiny ones instead"

There is so much fantastic music out there which are hidden gems. You can apply some of that to the Peter Green and 71-74 Fleetwood Mac and not hearing much of it on the radio. I have to admit though, we did get a new radio station here and in recent years I have heard "Oh Well", "Black Magic Woman" (PG's not Santana), "Bare Trees", "Emerald Eyes", "Bright Fire" & "Hypnotized" or "World Turning" & "Monday Morning" from the 'white album'. I know "Hypnotized" is a common track in some areas of the country but before 1996 I had never heard it.

I've only been on the internet since 2001, so I didn't have that as a resource until the last few years, but your right, it has been of immense help finding these "rusted signs". I did find some good music encyclopedias and discographies which were really helpful. Like I said, if I hadn't seen that reference in that one Rolling Stone book, I may never have discovered FM. At one time, I used a music finder over the telephone to locate hard to find cds. I remember trying to get "dog & dustbin" & Mr. Wonderful. I remember the guy told me he found cd copies of each for $60...wayyyy too much! I couldn't afford that. This was back around 2000 and I think they have been re-issued since, but like you, I found the Blue Horizon Box and that covered those and more.

Your right though, the Internet has been a big help in tracking down hard to find music. Sometimes you can get some great bargains on eBay but you have to really watch what your bidding on and the terms. The Internet has been a big help connecting with fellow fans and being able to bounce ideas off one another like we do here! You might also like that 1971 CBS Greatest Hits. I'm sure your aware of it, I don't have it either, but it has "Green Manalishi", "Man of the World" and Danny's "Dragon Fly". I remember reading in that box set, Peter Green's comment that "Dragon Fly" was his favorite Danny Kirwan song. I'm sure you've seen that comment if you read the booklet within your box. There is another Jermey Spencer song which I think was released on the b-side, can't remember which, maybe I heard it was "Dragon Fly", but it's called "The Purple Dancer".

I know I started from the back, but I have a new found appreciation for the latter music. Those "shiny signs" were right in front of me all along and yet they might just have well been the rusted ones. All in all, it's been a lot fun!

[macfan 57]

It's been the same for me. I first became aware of Fleetwood Mac in 1975 with Christine & the Rumours line-up. But, it wasn't until around the early 1990's, I think, that I started getting interested in the 1971-1974 years. It was around the time that these albums were first released on CD. As soon as I heard these albums, then I wished that I hadn't waited so long to get them. Mystery To Me is now my favorite Fleetwood Mac album, period.

I first got on the internet in 1999. Sometime later, I got Then Play One, the Blue Horizon box set, English Rose, Pious Bird Of Good Omen, the Original Fleetwood Mac & then finally the Live at the BBC set. But, my favorite album from this era is the 1971 Greatest Hits CD, since my favorite songs from this era are really the Peter Green songs. At this time, I also got Christine's Chicken Shack albums-2 studio albums & 2 live albums plus her Christine Perfect album(I've got 3 copies of that on vinyl & CD). I used the discography section here on this website and I got all of this stuff online, mostly eBay & Amazon. I even got all of the albums from 1970-1974 on vinyl, all on eBay. If it hadn't been for the internet, I probably wouldn't have gotten any of this stuff. I live in a small town and I just had no way of finding any of this stuff or even knowing that it existed. :)

[chiliD]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
1) ChiliD - Were you able to find the Blue Horizon LPs, FM's or other BH artists (Chicken Shack, Duster Bennett, Dave Kelly etc.)during the years the label was active?


I remember seeing both the first album AND English Rose in a store, but didn't have the $$ to buy them at the time...but, by the time I DID, they were out of print. HOWEVER, CBS had released them as their double-LP set Black Magic Woman. I later went back & got the original US albums (AND the original UK Mr Wonderful & Pious Bird Of Good Omen), all at the same time when I found them in a used record store a few years later. Additionally, I found one Duster Bennett album on BH the same time.

[HomerMcvie]

For me, I was SO into FM around the Tusk tour, that I traced the FM discography in the Tusk Tour book, wanting anything with Chris on it. Luckily, I started with Mystery To Me, which is still my favorite album.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by greenfire
... and Danny's "Dragon Fly". I remember reading in that box set, Peter Green's comment that "Dragon Fly" was his favorite Danny Kirwan song. I'm sure you've seen that comment if you read the booklet within your box. There is another Jermey Spencer song which I think was released on the b-side, can't remember which, maybe I heard it was "Dragon Fly", but it's called "The Purple Dancer".

Yep, "Purple Dancer" was the B-side to "Dragonfly". Although, it is CO-written by Danny & Jeremy. Plus, Christine plays keyboards and sings, too. It's obvious who wrote which part as they share lead vocals on the song, too...they each sing their own written part (like back in the early days of the Beatles when the lead vocal would shift from John to Paul or vice versa). It is really the "missing" link song between the sound that was Kiln House and the sound that became Future Games...it has various parts that are very reminicent of "Station Man", "Dragonfly", "One Together" & "Morning Rain".

[greenfire]

In the Penguin Fleetwood Mac discography, under other albums, I noticed the Reprise - The Best of Fleetwood Mac LP. It's on page 3 and is album #140. This appears to be the only full length album with The Purple Dancer. It looks like a great selection of songs, but unfortunately as John pointed out in his review, Searching For Madge is edited down to five minutes and then just abruptly ending it. It looks like an interesting set of songs!

Oh Well
Dragonfly
Rattlesnake Shake
World In Harmony
The Green Manalishi
Searching For Madge [instrumental]
Before The Beginning
The Purple Dancer
Fighting For Madge [instrumental]
Coming Your Way

Let's hope for a cd re-issue someday with the unedited version of Searching For Madge!

[chiliD]

That Best Of Fleetwood Mac LP was released in Germany only.

If you want an unedited "Searching For Madge" get the Vaudeville Years, Volume 1 set. It has the entire 16+ minutes under the title "The Madge Sessions". Also, has the full 16+ minute version of "Underway" (of which only the first 2 or 3 minutes comprises what was released on Then Play On)

[sharksfan2000]

I returned it, (there was a skip in "Jumping At Shadows") but over time, I found myself thinking a about the tracks on there that I really did like, and now I wanted them!

BklynBlue, you mentioned the skip in "Jumping at Shadows" on the Live at the BBC double CD - as far as I know this skip is on the master recording since it appears on every CD I've heard with that particular track. Too bad about the skip, but I still love this version of "Jumping at Shadows" - it's so different from any of the other live versions out there.

[BklynBlue]

When I did repurchase the CD, the skip was no longer on there. Now I do have a bootleg, which has some other, unreleased BBC tracks, with "Jumping At Shadows" and yes, the skip is still there!
Not sure what they did, or if Castle got a "cleaner" master for subsequent repressings -
I agree, that's one of the best versions of one of my favorite recordings with Green -
The version from the Boston Tea Party stand (not released on the three CDs) that appears on both the Castle "Jumping At Shadows" and the second disc of Reciever's "Show-Biz Blues" is also highly recommended

[sharksfan2000]

Wow, that's really interesting. I have the original import Live at the BBC CDs - is your "clean" version of Jumping at Shadows on the more recent US release? I'd repurchase it just to get that.

I agree, all of the live versions of Jumping at Shadows are terrific, some of Peter's best work. Other live favorites are All Over Again (Got a Mind to Give Up Living), Worried Dream, and of course the epic Rattlesnake Shake / Madge / Underway medleys.

I'm new to the forum here, and since I didn't answer your original question...
My first exposure to Fleetwood Mac was my freshman year in college in fall '75. My dorm roommate was a fan and he had most of their US-released records up to that point. Songs from Heroes are Hard to Find were still on the local FM radio station (Silver Heels was getting a fair amount of airplay), so the Bob Welch version of the band was the first one I was really familiar with.

As I started listening to my roommates records, I was blown away by the guitar playing on Then Play On. I recall that it took a little while for the songs themselves to sink in - they were pretty different from Bob Welch era Mac, or anything else on the radio for that matter. From that point, I was hooked on Peter Green. I've never really gotten into the Buckingham-Nicks Mac - although I enjoy some of it, their style of music is just not my favorite, although there's no denying they were very good at it.

Although I've looked at the Penguin website in the past for its great discography and I've checked out some of the Q&A sessions, I've just recently looked at the Ledge forums, mainly because I'd heard that the latest info on Peter's split from the Splinter Group could be found here. Although I'm not as big a fan of his Splinter Group work as I am of his Mac days, I hope that he continues to make music, and obviously I hope his health is ok.

[BklynBlue]

The "new" copy of "Live at the BBC" is copyrighted 2001 - but it is from the BMG club - I have to believe this is a later pressing of discs -
I agree, a live setting is really the best way to experience what the Green era Mac was truly capable of -
another favorite of mine is "If You Let Me Love You" - what I wouldn't give to get a clean copy of that - (if you don't already have the disc, check out my review for "The Last Goodbye" at the site here - if you're interested let me know)
What I'd really love to hear is their version of "Crossroads". They performed this a few times in '68 - incredibly, right when Cream's version was released on "Wheel's of Fire" -
what I'm most curious about is the arrangement - did Green perform it solo? Did they do a full band version?
Just find it interesting that with Cream's version out there, they'd go head to head with them like that -

I agree with you too, as far the Splinter Group material - I thought the first line-up was the stronger of the two - but as you say, my only wish is for him to be well; with all the pleasure I've taken from Green's music over the years, it really seems unfair to ask for more from the man -

[chiliD]

With so many parallels between Peter Green & Eric Clapton, I sort of equate the PGSG as being Peter's "Derek & the Dominoes" as opposed to his days in Fleetwood Mac as being his "Cream".

Maybe his split from the PGSG will now evolve into the equivalent of Peter's "461 Ocean Blvd" era...??? :laugh:

[BklynBlue]

thanks for the chuckle ChiliD!
Excellent analogy - the number of parallels in their work is uncanny -
on "461 Ocean Blvd." Clapton covered both Elmore James' "I Can't Hold Out" (favorite FM version, at the moment, the '68 BBC session on "Jumping At Shadows" & "Vaudeville Years" - under the alternate title "Talk to Me Baby")
and Robert Johnson's "Steady Rollin' Man"

To really add grist to the mill, EC is releasing an album of Johnson covers on March 19th - don't know if they'll be solo, or with a band - possibly both -

got a long way to go to top "Hot Foot Powder"

[chiliD]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
To really add grist to the mill, EC is releasing an album of Johnson covers on March 19th - don't know if they'll be solo, or with a band - possibly both - got a long way to go to top "Hot Foot Powder"


Are these going to be ALL newly recorded covers? Or, compilation of his previously recorded Robert Johnson tunes plus some newer recordings?

[BklynBlue]

ChiliD,
to the best of my knowledge (limited as that is) these are all NEW recordings -
Without doing a complete check, I don't believe he's actually covered that many over the years -
I know Vanguard recently did that with John Hammond, but again, these are going to be all new - be interesting to see if he revisits any he's already recorded -

Of course he was once quoted as saying that no one should attempt to cover "Hellhound On My Trail" as it would be an exercise in futility - but it's my belief that he only said that after hearing Jeremy mangle it on the first album < g >

[chiliD]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
ChiliD,
to the best of my knowledge (limited as that is) these are all NEW recordings -
Without doing a complete check, I don't believe he's actually covered that many over the years -

Hmmm...well...

Ramblin' On My Mind with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers (and later on his 1974 tour...EC Was Here album & Crossroads 2 box set)
From Four Until Late with Cream
Crossroads with Cream (and Derek & The Dominoes)
Steady Rollin' Man from 461 Ocean Blvd
Sweet Home Chicago & Kindhearted Woman (live from bootlegs of the From The Cradle tour)
Walkin' Blues from Unplugged

Yeah, so not as many as one would think. ;)

[sharksfan2000]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
What I'd really love to hear is their version of "Crossroads". They performed this a few times in '68 - incredibly, right when Cream's version was released on "Wheel's of Fire" -
what I'm most curious about is the arrangement - did Green perform it solo? Did they do a full band version?
Just find it interesting that with Cream's version out there, they'd go head to head with them like that -


I have one of the boots with "Crossroads" on it, and it's done by the full band (July '68, pre-Danny), but with Jeremy singing and taking the lead, not Peter. Very much in his Elmore James style, and needless to say, not even remotely similar to Cream's version. I'd say it's more interesting as a historical footnote than for the music.

[chiliD]

Well, ya know...Elmore James did a song called "Standing At The Crossroads" (interestingly covered by Ten Years After on their debut album) which is remotely similar lyrically but not EXACTLY the same song as the Robert Johnson tune. So, I wonder if Jeremy took his version from the Elmore James tune instead. :shrug:

[sharksfan2000]

Originally posted by chiliD
Well, ya know...Elmore James did a song called "Standing At The Crossroads" (interestingly covered by Ten Years After on their debut album) which is remotely similar lyrically but not EXACTLY the same song as the Robert Johnson tune. So, I wonder if Jeremy took his version from the Elmore James tune instead. :shrug:
I just listened to Jeremy's "Crossroads" again, and it's definitely the Robert Johnson song, not the Elmore James one you mention. The tempo is relatively slow, and it's actually more interesting than what I had remembered. From the Robert Johnson Complete Recordings, it's based on "Take 2" of Cross Road Blues (same as Cream's version is based). Jeremy sings the first 3 verses and then repeats the third one after an instrumental break. He omits the fourth verse (the "Willie Brown" one). Cream's version uses only the first, second and fourth verses and omits the third one.

BklynBlue, thanks for that tip on the Live at the BBC set. Maybe I'll try ordering from BMG and hopefully I'll get one without that skip in "Jumping at Shadows".

[EricBliss12345]

I started in the middle and kind of picked around. :laugh:

When the first press about the new album and tour started coming around it aroused my curiosity again. When all the hoopla happened with the Dance I remember trying to listen to their stuff via my dad's Chain boxed set and didn't like any of it at all. I found it to be boring old people soft rock. Hell, I was 16. LOL

So this time around I did the same thing, picked around on the Chain set. I found myself listening to a lot of disc 4 and really liking it, so I bought my first Mac CD, Bare Trees, and really liked it. THen I picked up Mystery To Me, and REALLY liked that. I thought, Stevie who? This other chick and Bob Magoo is what it's all about!

Being the prog-rock fan I am I decided to pick up Tusk next and challenge myself. I was excited to hear that this band wasn't scared to be arty and a little on the edge once in a while too. It has my favorite Stevie songs all in one album and some great ones from Chris too. Even though Lindsey's songs here don't always make for the best listening at least the production is interesting.

Then I bought the rest of the Welch period of the band. Some of the albums are patchy but all have their highlights. Heroes Are Hard To Find remains my favorite overall. Then I got Mirage, which I find half of to be absolutely stellar and the other half not so stellar, and then I got Say You Will a few months ago, which ended my sudden Mac fanatacism to a screeching halt with it's startling below-averageness. Rumours I already have 9 of the 11 songs on the set and am quite familiar with Oh Daddy from the radio and I Don't Wanna Know. And of course, the gem Silver Springs. :D

I think when I investigate again it's going to be Kiln House backwards. I downloaded Time instead of buying it because I didn't trust it, and sure enough the album sucked. So it's time for some pre-chick Mac, but not TOO much blues. Maybe one older one, Then Play On, and Kiln House.

[sharksfan2000]

More on "Crossroads"...

The performance I mentioned before was from a show in New York City, in July '68, and is the Robert Johnson song.

I found I have one more perfomance of "Crossroads", from a show in Orebro, Sweden, in November '68. The sound quality is poor and it's tough to make out all the lyrics, but this one is definitely the Elmore James song that chiliD noted!

So they actually did both songs! Jeremy gives the Elmore James song his standard Elmore treatment, pretty much the same as any number of other songs, in contrast to the slower and somewhat different treatment he gives the Robert Johnson song.

[BklynBlue]

thanks for the additional info - something else I'll need to keep an eye out for!
Very interesting - this is exactly the type of information that I wish you could find in the available discographies / sessionographies - not only who is singing lead, who is playing which instruments (I say that because Jeremy shows himself to be much more of a "team player", mainly on the BBC sessions, taking over on piano while Peter Green plays lead guitar, even when he, Jeremy, is on lead vocal - and he's rarely, if ever, given credit for it), but also, if the song is a cover or an original -

Another good example is their take on "Mean Old World", recorded for the Aug '68 BBC air-shot - theirs is based on T-Bone Walker' s late '50's recording of the song that he did for Atlantic Records.
He changed the lyrics and the intro from his original Black & White version and most British groups, most famously, Derek & the Dominos (there's the E.C. connection again!) used Little Walter's recording (different last verse) for their template

[chiliD]

Originally posted by sharksfan2000
Cream's version uses only the first, second and fourth verses and omits the third one.


Didn't Eric substitute a verse from "Terraplane Blues" into "Crossroads" on the Cream version?

[sharksfan2000]

Originally posted by chiliD
Didn't Eric substitute a verse from "Terraplane Blues" into "Crossroads" on the Cream version?

Actually it's a verse from "Traveling Riverside Blues", but you're right, that is in the Cream version.