Tonight - Bill O v. Bill M

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
Glad to hear it!

In all seriousness...I rarely discuss politics in "the real world". It is fun to vent at times and I enjoy a great heated discussion as long as it stays sane.

I hope that nobody gets offended, though. But, If you are gonna enter the political discussion arena then you better be ready to battle!

Besides...no matter how much we all disagree on politics...at least we all know that we have great taste in music!!!!

Rob:cool:

:D

I live and breathe politics and shout out my views from the rooftop, so this is just an extension of the stuff I talk about every day. :laugh:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally posted by Rob67
Besides...no matter how much we all disagree on politics...at least we all know that we have great taste in music!!!!

Rob:cool:

That's one thing I'll thank Clinton for...bringing the Mac back :nod: :D

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
:D

I live and breathe politics and shout out my views from the rooftop, so this is just an extension of the stuff I talk about every day. :laugh:

I have actually found that most people avoid political discussions becasue they hate to debate and would rather talk about the pleasures of life...Sex, drugs & Rock 'n' Roll!!!:D

Rob:cool:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by GardenStateGirlie
That's one thing I'll thank Clinton for...bringing the Mac back :nod: :D

I definitley think that was one of the major accomplishments of his adminstration!!:laugh:

Rob:cool:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by GardenStateGirlie
?

Finding Saddam was a shock to many people BECAUSE the media was not alerted and tipped off on the mission to extract him from his hole. We didn't see that one coming...and that's the way it should have been. No need to broadcast it to everyone so someone can let him know, hey, they're onto you! Get out! I don't feel we should be alerted on EVERY movement and EVERY tactic that will be taken in efforts to find Osama or any other threat for that matter.



I wanted to get into a little more depth on this earlier but I had to leave. My opinion is that we didn't actually find Saddam. I think the Kurds had him first and were trying to negotiate for the $25 million reward and when that fell through, or perhaps they were offered some cash, they gave up his locale. Before any of you assail this theory, remember the bull**** they fed us about the Jessica Lynch "rescue". Something to think about.
With respect to Osama, 166 million dollars and 500 lives go a long way toward finding him. As a taxpayer, I would much rather see their efforts in this direction than on the illegal invasion of Iraq. Yes, I believe it to have been illegal. We really had no basis for invading this country and I think that is going to come to light (it already has) for the reasons I have cited in many posts.
Thirdly, if we would stop funding the apartheid that is going on in Israel, 9/11 may never have happened. We currently give them about $3 billion a year. They have nuclear weapons, while their neighbors (Palestine) have none. No weapons whatsoever. It makes us look very bad in the Arab world. Therefore they perceive us to be their enemy as well. Mix that with a lot of money and a lot of religious fundamentalism and you've got a big problem. Don't forget, President Bush is in so tight with Sultan Bin Bandar (I think that I am spelling his name correctly) that they call him Bandar Bush. The very first oil company ever set up for Shrub by his father was financed by Salem Bin Laden. After 9/11, Bush flew out the remaining Bin Ladens without even questioning them to see if they might have known where Bin Laden was. He was at his nephew's wedding less than six months earlier, so it is complete hogwash that the family had nothing to do with him. Bin Laden requires regular kidney dialysis, so there is no way he is living in a cave, at least not for any lenght of time. As a free thinking person, let me ask you, does this sit well with you? Wouldn't you have to agree that something doesn't add up?

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I wanted to get into a little more depth on this earlier but I had to leave. My opinion is that we didn't actually find Saddam. I think the Kurds had him first and were trying to negotiate for the $25 million reward and when that fell through, or perhaps they were offered some cash, they gave up his locale. Before any of you assail this theory, remember the bull**** they fed us about the Jessica Lynch "rescue". Something to think about.
With respect to Osama, 166 million dollars and 500 lives go a long way toward finding him. As a taxpayer, I would much rather see their efforts in this direction than on the illegal invasion of Iraq. Yes, I believe it to have been illegal. We really had no basis for invading this country and I think that is going to come to light (it already has) for the reasons I have cited in many posts.
Thirdly, if we would stop funding the apartheid that is going on in Israel, 9/11 may never have happened. We currently give them about $3 billion a year. They have nuclear weapons, while their neighbors (Palestine) have none. No weapons whatsoever. It makes us look very bad in the Arab world. Therefore they perceive us to be their enemy as well. Mix that with a lot of money and a lot of religious fundamentalism and you've got a big problem. Don't forget, President Bush is in so tight with Sultan Bin Bandar (I think that I am spelling his name correctly) that they call him Bandar Bush. The very first oil company ever set up for Shrub by his father was financed by Salem Bin Laden. After 9/11, Bush flew out the remaining Bin Ladens without even questioning them to see if they might have known where Bin Laden was. He was at his nephew's wedding less than six months earlier, so it is complete hogwash that the family had nothing to do with him. Bin Laden requires regular kidney dialysis, so there is no way he is living in a cave, at least not for any lenght of time. As a free thinking person, let me ask you, does this sit well with you? Wouldn't you have to agree that something doesn't add up?

I would have to see the Oliver Stone movie first!:laugh:

Rob:cool:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
All accounts as of now point to these missles being used to carry chemical WMD. If that is proven false so be it. I am not married to the idea. I am just saying that they were buried in an obvious attempt to hide them gives credibility to the argument that SH was hiding WMD.

They weren't missles, they were mortars. I think they were forgotten. This is not a huge cache. I mean, how many times has our government misplaced things? (Please consider I live about 10 miles from Rocky Flats). You can't tell me that the Iraqi's were running a more efficient operation than ours. I won't be in the least surprised if they come out tomorrow and say the field tests were false positives. That's how the tests are designed, as I have said, to protect the soldiers.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
It still in no way enforces what the administration told us. If his possession of those buried weapons, which we more than likely gave him to kill the Iranians with and were buried before the UN resolutions, was justification of this joke of a war, I heartily disagree. You haven't said a lot of things that are out there, but this is definitely one of them. :nod: People are too quick to dispose of Shrub's lies.

As for Osama, Albright was 100% correct when she said we'll get an October surprise. I wouldn't be surprised if the supposed WMDs showed up around that time, too.

And you want something to salivate over? I think the capture of Saddam was very fishy and perhaps may have been a bit staged, much like the Jessica Lynch rescue (that rescue was a joke!). ;)

We must have been hit by the same thunderbolt because I was posting the very same thing at the very same time you were.:)

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
Me too! He had me in hysterics on last nights debate with his pie chart. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I watched it all over again on C-SPAN just for that. :nod:

You gotta love the guy. He stands up for what he believes in. Did you know that he fired the police chief on the six o'clock news when he was the mayor of Cleveland?

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
My opinion is that we didn't actually find Saddam.

*smacks self in forehead with palm* :cool:

Wow - I guess everything and anything is suspect . . .

Yes, I think that the way the Jessica Lynch story was "embellished" was unfortunate, but I don't think we can automatically assume that the capture of every single person from the "deck of cards" is now questionable. The important thing is that he is in custody now, and whoever found him deserves a big THANK YOU.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Rob67
I have actually found that most people avoid political discussions becasue they hate to debate and would rather talk about the pleasures of life...Sex, drugs & Rock 'n' Roll!!!:D

Rob:cool:

What a sad statement that attests to the dumbing down of our society.

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
What a sad statement that attests to the dumbing down of our society.

Puh-lease...lighten up!!!!! It's a JOKE!

Besides...I resemble that remark.

Rob:cool:

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
We must have been hit by the same thunderbolt because I was posting the very same thing at the very same time you were.:)

Great minds think alike. :nod: :D The two of us have to stick together; we're like blind folks in a room full of deaf folks. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Mad4stevie
*smacks self in forehead with palm* :cool:

Wow - I guess everything and anything is suspect . . .

Yes, I think that the way the Jessica Lynch story was "embellished" was unfortunate, but I don't think we can automatically assume that the capture of every single person from the "deck of cards" is now questionable.

I don't. I only said the capture of Hussein doesn't add up to me. I do believe his sons are dead.
If they lied about Lynch, what else are they lying about? Why is that so implausible to you?

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
You gotta love the guy. He stands up for what he believes in. Did you know that he fired the police chief on the six o'clock news when he was the mayor of Cleveland?

No, I didn't!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I don't. I only said the capture of Hussein doesn't add up to me. I do believe his sons are dead.

Dumbing down of our society, huh?:rolleyes: :D

Rob:cool:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
Great minds think alike. :nod: :D The two of us have to stick together; we're like blind folks in a room full of deaf folks. :laugh:

LMAO!:laugh: :wavey:

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I do believe his sons are dead.

I don't...;)

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Thirdly, if we would stop funding the apartheid that is going on in Israel, 9/11 may never have happened.

Are you ready for this: I agree with you in that I don't think our policies in Isreal help our "reputation" in the Arab world, but I do not agree that this somehow contributed to cause 9/11. The blame lies with those who were involved in the hijacking, Osama, his network of cowards, those who contributed cash to train these terrorists, and the fact that someone in the intelligence community was asleep at the wheel. :cool:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally posted by Merf
Well, Risster, your theory has definitely been proven by this administration! And that's all there is to say about that! :nod:

;)

Well, again, matter of opinion. I feel this administration was dealt some ****ty cards to begin with and are dealing with it as best they can and of course, it isn't going to be good enough for everyone. It's a win/loose situation. We'll never know how good old Al Gore would have dealt with it but I have a feeling, it wouldn't have been any better.

No President in the history of the United States has actually ran the country. The Presidency has been a joke for years now regardless of which party is in control of the office. He's someone to either blame or applaud and that is it.

Wow .04 today.

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
LMAO!:laugh: :wavey:

:wavey:

And Rob and Jason are like one-legged men in a butt kicking contest; they can't win with us. :D

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Mad4stevie
Are you ready for this: I agree with you in that I don't think our policies in Isreal help our "reputation" in the Arab world, but I do not agree that this somehow contributed to cause 9/11. The blame lies with those who were involved in the hijacking, Osama, his network of cowards, those who contributed cash to train these terrorists, and the fact that someone in the intelligence community was asleep at the wheel. :cool:

If you listen to or read the transcripts of Bin Laden's tapes he is often blaming the Zionist oppresors. He feels that we are amongst that group. Two of the big neocons, Wolfowitz and Perle, certainly are. I'm not justifying it but I see were the jihadists are making their connection. Part of conquering your enemy is to first understand them, no?

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by dissention
I don't...;)

:eek: :rolleyes: ;) :wavey:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
If you listens to the transcript of Bin Laden's tape he is often blaming the Zionist oppresor's.


Ahhh..the ramblings of a mad man. He obviously makes a lot of sense. ;)

Rob:cool:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
:wavey:

And Rob and Jason are like one-legged men in a butt kicking contest; they can't win with us. :D

But, damnit, if you can't win...you might as well have fun trying!!:laugh:

Rob:cool:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Mad4stevie
and the fact that someone in the intelligence community was asleep at the wheel. :cool:

But no one was asleep at the wheel; Condie Rice had gotten lengthy intel reports about an upcoming terrorist attack involving hijacked planes and other things in the late summer of '01, passed it on to Shrub, and then everyone from the cabinet members to Ashcroft began flying private jets...

They even slipped up in October of '01 and stupidly admitted that they had 9/11 intel almost two months beforehand. But now they want to cover it up by refusing to cooperate with the current investigation.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by GardenStateGirlie
Well, again, matter of opinion. I feel this administration was dealt some ****ty cards to begin with and are dealing with it as best they can and of course, it isn't going to be good enough for everyone. It's a win/loose situation. We'll never know how good old Al Gore would have dealt with it but I have a feeling, it wouldn't have been any better.

:nod: Good lord, it makes me :distress: to think of Gore being the top banana on 9/11.

Yes - there was alot of crap the GW did inherit, including the impression from Clinton and Albright that SH had WMD.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by GardenStateGirlie
Well, again, matter of opinion. I feel this administration was dealt some ****ty cards to begin with and are dealing with it as best they can and of course, it isn't going to be good enough for everyone. It's a win/loose situation. We'll never know how good old Al Gore would have dealt with it but I have a feeling, it wouldn't have been any better.

No President in the history of the United States has actually ran the country. The Presidency has been a joke for years now regardless of which party is in control of the office. He's someone to either blame or applaud and that is it.

Wow .04 today.

George Washington? Come on now.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by Rob67
Ahhh..the ramblings of a mad man. He obviously makes a lot of sense. ;)

Rob:cool:

:laugh: As I spit my drink across the room! :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
Ahhh..the ramblings of a mad man. He obviously makes a lot of sense. ;)

Rob:cool:

A Shrub remark is due after that comment.

"I know it's hard to put food on your family."

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Rob67
Ahhh..the ramblings of a mad man. He obviously makes a lot of sense. ;)

Rob:cool:

That wasn't my point. You and Mad4Stevie are about as lost as Helen Keller in the forest without Jason here to do your reasoning and arguing for you. Do you have anything intelligent to say about 9/11, Iraq or the Middle East? I don't think so.

[dissention]

I'm going to bust out my DVD of Primary Colors and watch it tomorrow. Thanks for the insipration. :D

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
That wasn't my point.

I got your point and it was very well made. However, no one in this country wants to invest the time in even attempting to understand another group, culture, or individual. They're too concerned with whether Trista and Ryan stay together than with foreign affairs. And the politicians just do whatever makes them a quick buck or lines their pockets with even more gold.

It's depressing.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Part of conquering your enemy is to first understand them, no?

Agreed. But . . . I don't think we will ever understand them. They have a particular type of religious frenzy that I don't think really compares to anything here in this country. I am sure you are gonna have a field day with this one ;)

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
George Washington? Come on now.

Perhaps not George but it wasn't long after him.

If it hasn't become infinitely clear by now, I abhor politics.

Ask me again why that and my other FAVORITE subject of broadcast journalism were my majors?

Frankly, i'm clueless.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
I got your point and it was very well made. However, no one in this country wants to invest the time in even attempting to understand another group, culture, or individual. They're too concerned with whether Trista and Ryan stay together than with foreign affairs. And the politicians just do whatever makes them a quick buck or lines their pockets with even more gold.

It's depressing.

I think Mad4Stevie likes Bush because she's getting a big fat tax cut at the expense of the poor people.:)

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
I'm going to bust out my DVD of Primary Colors and watch it tomorrow. Thanks for the insipration. :D

It's one of my favorite movies. I still can't believe that Joe Klein wrote the book. "You are my sunshine, my only sunshine, you make me happy when skies are gray...":)

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
A Shrub remark is due after that comment.

"I know it's hard to put food on your family."

That was a good one, wasn't it? :laugh:

But, I am sure we would all have some zingers that get quoted if we had to speak in public as much as a president of the U S of A.

Rob:cool:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Mad4stevie
Agreed. But . . . I don't think we will ever understand them. They have a particular type of religious frenzy that I don't think really compares to anything here in this country. I am sure you are gonna have a field day with this one ;)

I sure am.

If no one wants to put forth the effort in educating themselves about them, then they will never understand them.

Ignorance is not a defense, it's something to be scoffed and laughed at.

But, as long as people are getting these fat tax cuts. :rolleyes:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
They're too concerned with whether Trista and Ryan stay together than with foreign affairs.
It's depressing.

Ah, Trista and Ryan. Two more reasons why Denver is still such a cow town.:)

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
That wasn't my point. You and Mad4Stevie are about as lost as Helen Keller in the forest without Jason here to do your reasoning and arguing for you. Do you have anything intelligent to say about 9/11, Iraq or the Middle East? I don't think so.

Now, now - there is no reason to be insulting.

Saying you disagree is one thing, but calling us unintelligent is not :cool: Why do you always go there? Just because this board has long been a liberal haven does not mean we can't jump into the fray and voice our opinion.

It appears that your intolerance is the very thing you are critical of the administration for doing. :rolleyes:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
That wasn't my point. You and Mad4Stevie are about as lost as Helen Keller in the forest without Jason here to do your reasoning and arguing for you. Do you have anything intelligent to say about 9/11, Iraq or the Middle East? I don't think so.

Testy are we? I sense a little bitterness. All of my stances on these subjects have been answered repeatedly...look closer.:)

Logic has a way of pissing people off...I've found.

Rob:cool:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Mad4stevie
Now, now - there is no reason to be insulting.

Saying you disagree is one thing, but calling us unintelligent is not :cool: Why do you always go there? Just because this board has long been a liberal haven does not mean we can't jump into the fray and voice our opinion.

It appears that your intolerance is the very thing you are critical of the administration for doing. :rolleyes:

Well Heather, I'd answer you but it might be scary. Good night.:wavey:

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
It's one of my favorite movies. I still can't believe that Joe Klein wrote the book. "You are my sunshine, my only sunshine, you make me happy when skies are gray...":)

:D

It was quite shocking to find out that he wrote it. :nod:

I firmly believe that Kathy Bates' character was meant to be Vince. :nod:

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by dissention
I sure am.

If no one wants to put forth the effort in educating themselves about them, then they will never understand them.

Ignorance is not a defense, it's something to be scoffed and laughed at.

But, as long as people are getting these fat tax cuts. :rolleyes:

That is not what I mean. To rephrase: we cannot possibly understand their motivation totally because we do not live their lives. Their culture, religion and way of life in not anything like what anyone has experienced here in this country. I am all for understanding, but I also recognize the limitations.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Rob67
Testy are we? I sense a little bitterness. All of my stances on these subjects have been answered repeatedly...look closer.:)

Logic has a way of pissing people off...I've found.

Rob:cool:

Well Rob, if I could find one insightful post containing an original thought, perhaps I'd take you more seriously. Ciao!:wavey:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Mad4stevie
a liberal haven

Under Shrub's dictatorship rule, there is no such thing.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Well Heather, I'd answer you but it might be scary. Good night.:wavey:

Let's just agree to disagree without the insults so we can play fair. Deal? :wavey:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
I got your point and it was very well made. However, no one in this country wants to invest the time in even attempting to understand another group, culture, or individual. They're too concerned with whether Trista and Ryan stay together than with foreign affairs. And the politicians just do whatever makes them a quick buck or lines their pockets with even more gold.

It's depressing.

And why, exactly, should I try and understand the logic behind flying planes filled with innocent people into buildings filled with innocent people?

I understand other cultures and groups of people just as well as anyone else here. In fact, I am one of the more tolerant people that I know. But I cannot defend or even rationalize the kind of actions that result from following fundamentalist Islam. It is the great evil of our century...like it or not.

Just my two cents.

Rob:cool:

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by dissention
Under Shrub's dictatorship rule, there is no such thing.

Ya know - I am actually starting to know what you are gonna post before you do it. So predictable . . . :D

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
And why, exactly, should I try and understand the logic behind flying planes filled with innocent people into buildings filled with innocent people?

I understand other cultures and groups of people just as well as anyone else here. In fact, I am one of the more tolerant people that I know. But I cannot defend or even rationalize the kind of actions that result from following fundamentalist Islam. It is the great evil of our century...like it or not.

Just my two cents.

Rob:cool:

You wouldn't like to know their rationale behind their actions? I do. It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'd just like to know why they feel such hostility towards us. There is no way to find out without education and patience.

Ignorance is an unbecoming characteristic.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Mad4stevie
Ya know - I am actually starting to know what you are gonna post before you do it. So predictable . . . :D

Same here. :) Us liberals say the same things, just like you conservatives say the same things.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by dissention
Same here. :) Us liberals say the same things, just like you conservatives say the same things.

Yeah - at this point in the thread, I don't really know if there is an original thought from either side to be had :laugh:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Well Rob, if I could find one insightful post containing an original thought, perhaps I'd take you more seriously. Ciao!:wavey:

Oh come on now...I have countered many of your points with valid arguments throughout my posts. I am not going to waste the time to repost my views. I have also noticed an almost hostile sarcasm and little comments coming through in a lot of your posts. I know you are smarter and more mature then that. Why resort to this?

And if you want to get picky, everything that I have seen in your posts is either Bush bashing or conspiracy theories. I don’t want to go negative here, it’s not my style. But YOU have not put down one argument or theory of your own on any subject that I can recall. Aside from the boring “liberal” lines of “Blood for oil” or “Bush is Hitler” or “Tax cuts for the Rich”….What do you think our government should do to counter terrorism, long term? What kind of economic theory to you subscribe to on the Federal level? Do you believe in a socialist\Marxist style of governing or are you a proponent of a capitalist society according to Adam Smith? Make me see your point of view! I want something good that will make me think.

I have no ill will towards anyone here and I am entertained by our discussions. But if the maturity level of some people cannot accept differing opinions then I will cease to post and return to the LB board and post music only entries. I will not resort to bickering and name calling. I leave that to extremists!;)

Peace out!

Rob:cool:

[Sugar]

Originally posted by dissention
Me too! He had me in hysterics on last nights debate with his pie chart. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I watched it all over again on C-SPAN just for that. :nod:

Sorry to interupt the...discussion...

But did anyone catch the debate on NPR last week? When apparently he held up his pie chart and the moderator said, "Kucinich (sp?) is holding up a pie chart which doesn't work very well on the radio...":laugh:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally posted by dissention
You wouldn't like to know their rationale behind their actions? I do. It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'd just like to know why they feel such hostility towards us. There is no way to find out without education and patience.

I've run out of patience for a group of people who don't even value their own lives nor that of other people in the name of all things...religion. We're two totally different societies. What they deem rational, we deem extremist and they see us in the same light. We're not looking to dominate the world (disagree all you want) but way back in history at some point, we became the savior to many and have been put in this awkward postion.

I've spent much time in and out of the classroom on the topic of the middle east with one professor even alluding to the fact that we deserved what we got (this I kid you not). There's too much history and too much bad blood not just with us, but with surrounding countries to come to any sort of ground with them.

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
You wouldn't like to know their rationale behind their actions? I do. It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'd just like to know why they feel such hostility towards us. There is no way to find out without education and patience.

Ignorance is an unbecoming characteristic.

I understand their rational as far as what they say and do. I read their statements. I don't agree with it, plain and simple. It doesn't mean I don't understand it. Perhaps we interpret things differently, and that’s ok. Their actions reinforce my belief that fundamentalist religious followers are dangerous and....ignorant.

Rob:cool:

[Mad4stevie]

Originally posted by GardenStateGirlie
I've run out of patience for a group of people who don't even value their own lives nor that of other people in the name of all things...religion. We're two totally different societies. What they deem rational, we deem extremist and they see us in the same light. We're not looking to dominate the world (disagree all you want) but way back in history at some point, we became the savior to many and have been put in this awkward postion.

I've spent much time in and out of the classroom on the topic of the middle east with one professor even alluding to the fact that we deserved what we got (this I kid you not). There's too much history and too much bad blood not just with us, but with surrounding countries to come to any sort of ground with them.

Agreed. I can't believe the ignorance of people who think "we deserved" 9/11. Who was that who said it was God's punishment for embracing the homosexual lifestyle - Fallwell? Now that is off the deep end of the right wing!:distress:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
:D

It was quite shocking to find out that he wrote it. :nod:

I firmly believe that Kathy Bates' character was meant to be Vince. :nod:

Oh absolutely. I just wonder if it speaks to the "why.";)

[estranged4life]

the "Today Show" this morning? Paul O'Neill was interviewed and he had a few interesting things to say:

He doesnt see the Treasury Dept. investigation as a payback from the Bush administration...He would have done the same thing himself.

He will vote for Bush in the upcoming election because he believes there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as the current President.

He feels the political process in the U.S. is broken and unfixable due to "bi-partisan politics".

--------------------------

It was quite an interesting listen IMHO...

Brian j.

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Oh absolutely. I just wonder if it speaks to the "why.";)

Exactly! However, in the movie, they didn't really add the air of mystery to Bates' death like there was in real life; they just played it as a suicide. I don't think we'll ever know what really happened, but...

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Rob67
Their actions reinforce my belief that fundamentalist religious followers are dangerous and....ignorant.

So how do you explain your support for Dubya?

[Rob67]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
So how do you explain your support for Dubya?

Well, first, I don't support him on everything. Second, he isn't what I would classify as a religious extremist. I am talking about cultists (see Branch Davidians), and extremists like militant Muslim groups. I guess you could include the KKK if you want a "Christian" based example.

Rob:cool:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
Well, first, I don't support him on everything. Second, he isn't what I would classify as a religious extremist. I am talking about cultists (see Branch Davidians), and extremists like militant Muslim groups. I guess you could include the KKK if you want a "Christian" based example.

Rob:cool:

:confused:

He believes that God speaks to him. He believes that God tells him to do things. He requires that all of his staff pray before each meeting or else they will be barred until they do so. He constantly works God into his speeches.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by dissention
:confused:

He believes that God speaks to him. He believes that God tells him to do things. He requires that all of his staff pray before each meeting or else they will be barred until they do so. He constantly works God into his speeches.

What you said. If that isn't extremist, I don't know what is. And, if you ask me, constitutionally troubling

[Rob67]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
What you said. If that isn't extremist, I don't know what is. And, if you ask me, constitutionally troubling

Well, I guess I would define extremist as flying planes into skyscrapers, setting yourself and your followers on fire, and lynching members of another race because you interpret the bible to say that yours is superior.

Holding a morning prayer session is hardly extremist. Why do you consider that extreme? I am not a religious person but that doesn't scares me at all. It’s the fanatics who use violence against the innocent in the name of their “God” that scare me. And this includes the Crusaders of the Middle Ages. I am not just talking about Muslims.

Rob

:cool:

[Merf]

I feel this administration was dealt some ****ty cards to begin with and are dealing with it as best they can and of course, it isn't going to be good enough for everyone.

Marissa, darling, you know I adore you, but I had to reply to this.

Dubya was dealt no ****ty cards, IMO. If eight years of peace and prosperity and the strongest American economy since after WWII are "****ty cards," then I only hope our future presidents are so cursed.

If you would care to elaborate on what "****ty cards" Dubya was dealt to begin with, that would be awesome.

Who are really getting dealt the "****ty cards" now? The lower and middle class working people of the United States after Bush's tax cut for the richest 1% of the population. I know my family does not and barring a Powerball lottery win will NEVER fit into that category. Cutting taxes for the rich means that the lower/middle class has to make up the difference. Robbing the poor to help the rich? Now that is criminal. :rolleyes:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
Holding a morning prayer session is hardly extremist.

I didn't say it was.

I said that forcing people to pray is extremist. He forces them to pray and if they refuse, he refuses to let them take part in his meetings. It's not only ridiculous, it's offensive.

And you don't think that someone who believes God actually *speaks* to him is an extremist? Once again, let's agree to disagree.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
:wavey:

And Rob and Jason are like one-legged men in a butt kicking contest; they can't win with us. :D

Well, considering gldstwmn will never party with me again if I win . . . . :laugh:

Seruiously, I think we all hold our own!!!!!!! :cool:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by estranged4life
the "Today Show" this morning? Paul O'Neill was interviewed and he had a few interesting things to say:

He doesnt see the Treasury Dept. investigation as a payback from the Bush administration...He would have done the same thing himself.

He will vote for Bush in the upcoming election because he believes there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as the current President.

He feels the political process in the U.S. is broken and unfixable due to "bi-partisan politics".

--------------------------

It was quite an interesting listen IMHO...

Brian j.

I might as well have written that except for the vitong for W part!!! :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Rob67
Well, first, I don't support him on everything. Second, he isn't what I would classify as a religious extremist. I am talking about cultists (see Branch Davidians), and extremists like militant Muslim groups. I guess you could include the KKK if you want a "Christian" based example.

Rob:cool:

W is far from a religious extremist when compared to P. Robertson, etc.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
:confused:

He believes that God speaks to him. He believes that God tells him to do things. He requires that all of his staff pray before each meeting or else they will be barred until they do so. He constantly works God into his speeches.

They are not required to pray. That is just flat out false. Please site the source for that.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
They are not required to pray. That is just flat out false. Please site the source for that.

Let me do some digging and I will. I read it in an article from Esquire back in November (or early December).

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Merf
Marissa, darling, you know I adore you, but I had to reply to this.

Dubya was dealt no ****ty cards, IMO. If eight years of peace and prosperity and the strongest American economy since after WWII are "****ty cards," then I only hope our future presidents are so cursed.

If you would care to elaborate on what "****ty cards" Dubya was dealt to begin with, that would be awesome.

Who are really getting dealt the "****ty cards" now? The lower and middle class working people of the United States after Bush's tax cut for the richest 1% of the population. I know my family does not and barring a Powerball lottery win will NEVER fit into that category. Cutting taxes for the rich means that the lower/middle class has to make up the difference. Robbing the poor to help the rich? Now that is criminal. :rolleyes:

Oh Come on :laugh:

The economy was well on its way into a recession when W took office. Moreover, economic theory and history prove that tax cuts are the way to improve the economy. Do you have a credible economic source to refute that? Finally, when you give a tax cut to everyone, the people who pay the most taxes are going to get the most benefit. Maybe you are for giving tax cuts only to people determined by some arbitrary poverty line, but I am not. I mean it takes many many arbitrarily defined poor people to make up the tazes on on very wealthy purchase like a $325,000 Rolls Royce, which gets about a 7-9% sales tax and then the fed. luxusry tax and perhaps the fed. gas guzzler tax, and, perhaps ad volrem tax (each state and municipality is different) for a total of about $50,000 - $75,000. It would take about 30 to 40 $32,500 car buyers to make up this revenue for the city, state, etc. This is a somewhat silly example I agree, but it does illustrate the point that tax cuts should be for everyone. I mean why does everyone think the rich don't deserve a break? That to me is prejudice.

Having said all of that (Phew :laugh: ) that is why I am for a flat income federal tax of 20% with do deductions whatsoever. That way everyone pays their share and no favorites are created.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Let me do some digging and I will. I read it in an article from Esquire back in November (or early December).

I am pretty sure W and the a$$hole Ashcroft have prayer meetings/breakfasts, but no one is required to go. I have a friend who works at the DOJ in DC and he certainly would not go. My problem with prayer breakfasts is that they should not be done on the govt's dime and they smack of "if you do not go, which is your option, you are going to miss something important to your job." That is wrong strongarming to me. Yet, they have been in existence since Washington was President. So, I guess they are sadly here to stay.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Merf
Marissa, darling, you know I adore you, but I had to reply to this.

Dubya was dealt no ****ty cards, IMO. If eight years of peace and prosperity and the strongest American economy since after WWII are "****ty cards," then I only hope our future presidents are so cursed.



Word. I just hope we can get back to that place.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Word. I just hope we can get back to that place.

Interestingly, I think the worst of W's mistakes was that he and his administration were told Al-Q was the biggest looming threat. But, they did not take that information and run with it. We all know how that turned out. Note: I am not saying W consciously knew of the suicide attack plans, I am just saying that the info. was there and his admin. could not put it together. In fairness, I am not sure anyone could have put the pieces together to stop the events of 9/11. Hopefully, we will do better in the future.

Also, Clinton did not have eight years of peace. That is just wrong. Somalia, Bosnia, the first WTC attack, the attack pon the Cole, the attacks on our embassy (I think ) in Kenya, the attack on our troops' barracks in I forget where. Although these events standing alone pale in comparison to the 9/11 attacks, taken together they are a pretty close second. So, I submit it was not all wine and roses.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
So, I submit it was not all wine and roses.

No, it was wine and caviar, whereas now, we're dining on sparkling grape juice and Price Rite cheese spread.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
No, it was wine and caviar, whereas now, we're dining on sparkling grape juice and Price Rite cheese spread.

:laugh: :laugh: I HATE CHEESE SPREAD!!!!!!

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I HATE CHEESE SPREAD!!!!!!

Then vote Democrat.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Then vote Democrat.

I do. I voted for Clinton and Gore even though Gore was kind of like a cheese spread :cool:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
.

Also, Clinton did not have eight years of peace. That is just wrong. Somalia, Bosnia, the first WTC attack, the attack pon the Cole, the attacks on our embassy (I think ) in Kenya, the attack on our troops' barracks in I forget where. Although these events standing alone pale in comparison to the 9/11 attacks, taken together they are a pretty close second. So, I submit it was not all wine and roses.

I think Merf's point was that we didn't make any pre-emptive strikes on any country on Clinton's watch. In fact, it has never been done in the history of this country.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I think Merf's point was that we didn't make any pre-emptive strikes on any country on Clinton's watch. In fact, it has never been done in the history of this country.

Touche'

But - her point came across to me as if it was all peace and then this. So, sorry Merf if I miscontrued :sorry:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I do. I voted for Clinton and Gore even though Gore was kind of like a cheese spread :cool:

He certainly was, but he was the kind you could buy at Bread and Circus, not that processed garbage we're eating now. :laugh:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Also, Clinton did not have eight years of peace. That is just wrong. Somalia, Bosnia, the first WTC attack, the attack pon the Cole, the attacks on our embassy (I think ) in Kenya, the attack on our troops' barracks in I forget where. Although these events standing alone pale in comparison to the 9/11 attacks, taken together they are a pretty close second. So, I submit it was not all wine and roses.

You are absolutely right. Point being, the threat has been out there for years and no, I wouldn't want to walk into what Bush and his administration did and to be honest with you, I'm sure Al Gore was relieved he didn't win for that very reason...he would not be up for the challenge. And yes, it is a challenge because no matter how you try to rectify the situation, the realism is that not everyone is going to be pleased (as we see in this thread).

Again, the events Jason mentioned probably weren't the headline of the day for most people and the reality of being attacked at home was not believable (even sans the WTC attack in 93') so it went unnoticed, so-to-speak.

So no Mere, in my opinion, I don't believe he walked into some situation that was peaches and cream. Leaving out political party affiliation, I don't think ANYONE who would have been voted into that office would have had an easy task.

[dissention]

Originally posted by GardenStateGirlie
You are absolutely right. Point being, the threat has been out there for years and no, I wouldn't want to walk into what Bush and his administration did and to be honest with you, I'm sure Al Gore was relieved he didn't win for that very reason...he would not be up for the challenge. And yes, it is a challenge because no matter how you try to rectify the situation, the realism is that not everyone is going to be pleased (as we see in this thread).

I don't believe that for one second. Gore knew the deal about al-Qaeda and such from his eight years as VP, he would've used the intel that was made available months before 9/11 and taken some sort of precautions. Gore wasn't relieved, he was ready to fight for the presidency and he did. He demanded the recounts and that's not the type of behavior from someone who's glad they lost. Unfortunately, the Shrub admin. is not up to the challenge; they have no idea what to do so they make more of a challenge for the themselves and the presidents of the future.

Gore wasn't the brightest crayon in the Crayola box, but Bush and his cabinet are just plain dumb.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
I don't believe that for one second. Gore knew the deal about al-Qaeda and such from his eight years as VP, he would've used the intel that was made available months before 9/11 and taken some sort of precautions. Gore wasn't relieved, he was ready to fight for the presidency and he did. He demanded the recounts and that's not the type of behavior from someone who's glad they lost. Unfortunately, the Shrub admin. is not up to the challenge; they have no idea what to do so they make more of a challenge for the themselves and the presidents of the future.

Gore wasn't the brightest crayon in the Crayola box, but Bush and his cabinet are just plain dumb.

I was watching Bill Maher's new (I think) HBO special. He had a good point when he said that pretty much any President would rise to the occasion and be able to point a finger at Afganistan and say "Destroy It" - which is what W pretty much did. I mean I do not see what else could W have done with Afganistan short of appeasement a la Iraq.

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
I didn't say it was.

I said that forcing people to pray is extremist. He forces them to pray and if they refuse, he refuses to let them take part in his meetings. It's not only ridiculous, it's offensive.

And you don't think that someone who believes God actually *speaks* to him is an extremist? Once again, let's agree to disagree.

You must not know a lot of spiritual people!:D

I have never heard that he forces people to pray with him...but I will take your word for it. But who cares? I had to say the pledge of allegiance every morning in high school. It didn't bother me. It shouldn't be offensive to anyone but the ones being forced to against their will...

Rob:cool:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Oh Come on :laugh:

The economy was well on its way into a recession when W took office. Moreover, economic theory and history prove that tax cuts are the way to improve the economy. Do you have a credible economic source to refute that? Finally, when you give a tax cut to everyone, the people who pay the most taxes are going to get the most benefit. Maybe you are for giving tax cuts only to people determined by some arbitrary poverty line, but I am not. I mean it takes many many arbitrarily defined poor people to make up the tazes on on very wealthy purchase like a $325,000 Rolls Royce, which gets about a 7-9% sales tax and then the fed. luxusry tax and perhaps the fed. gas guzzler tax, and, perhaps ad volrem tax (each state and municipality is different) for a total of about $50,000 - $75,000. It would take about 30 to 40 $32,500 car buyers to make up this revenue for the city, state, etc. This is a somewhat silly example I agree, but it does illustrate the point that tax cuts should be for everyone. I mean why does everyone think the rich don't deserve a break? That to me is prejudice.

Having said all of that (Phew :laugh: ) that is why I am for a flat income federal tax of 20% with do deductions whatsoever. That way everyone pays their share and no favorites are created.

Thank you...I just started responding to that and now I don't have to.

Agreed!:)

Rob :cool:

[dissention]

Is anyone planning on going to the Democratic National Convention this summer in Boston?

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
I don't believe that for one second. Gore knew the deal about al-Qaeda and such from his eight years as VP, he would've used the intel that was made available months before 9/11 and taken some sort of precautions. Gore wasn't relieved, he was ready to fight for the presidency and he did. He demanded the recounts and that's not the type of behavior from someone who's glad they lost. Unfortunately, the Shrub admin. is not up to the challenge; they have no idea what to do so they make more of a challenge for the themselves and the presidents of the future.

Gore wasn't the brightest crayon in the Crayola box, but Bush and his cabinet are just plain dumb.

I don't think you could call Ms. Rice dumb. She seems rather intelligent...:wavey:

Rob:cool:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
Is anyone planning on going to the Democratic National Convention this summer in Boston?

That would be interesting....

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
I don't think you could call Ms. Rice dumb. She seems rather intelligent...:wavey:

Rob:cool:

If she was, she would never have agreed to serve with Bush and she wouldn't continue to perpetuate his lies and cover-ups.

Chances are that if he's reelected, she will stay, but Powell will be outta there faster than you can "misleader."

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Rob67
Thank you...I just started responding to that and now I don't have to.

Agreed!:)

Rob :cool:

I know - and, no slam to Merf intended as she did not actually say this exact thing, but I just do not see how people in general can say:

"oh - you make over $100,000 a year and therefore any problems you may have (and you should have non because you are rich) pale in comparison to everyone else because America had a de facto conclusion that the rich are inherently bad people who should never, ever, under penaty of death, open their mouths about paying the most taxes (wich they do) - much less when a tax break rolls around - off with their crowned heads for sugesting thier burden be lessened!" :laugh: If we wanted socialism, then Amercia woud not be a Republic.

P.S. this is a classic example of me using ewxxageraton for emphass! :cool:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
That would be interesting....

I'm already stashing away money so that I can attend. :laugh:

It will be absolute hell in Boston for two days straight, but I'm gonna love every minute of it. :nod: They're already estimating that Boston's economy will get a nice $150 boost (and it sure as hell needs it) and that 45,000 will descend on the Fleet Center (where it's being held).

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Is anyone planning on going to the Democratic National Convention this summer in Boston?

I very well may be there. I am working on something with a friend right now. It probably will not work out. If it does, I'll let you know!!!!

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
If we wanted socialism, then Amercia woud not be a Republic.

Ooh, say that dirty word again...

Socialism.

Whisper it in my ear, babe. :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I very well may be there. I am working on something with a friend right now. It probably will not work out. If it does, I'll let you know!!!!

Yes, lemme know, maybe we can meet up...and I'll reveal you as an impostor, a Republican in disguise!!! :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Interestingly, when I was in college and the RNC was held in New Orleans (where I essentially lived), I was a voluteer driver for UPI (now AP) and my passener was Jack Anderson, who mut have pissed someone off (Surpirse :laugh: ) because he was staying at like a Motel 8 across the river!! :laugh: He was fascinating!!!!

Also, I was about 20 feet at the UPI place on the press tables hat flanked the speaker's podium when Bush. Sr. gave his speech accepting the nomination.

Let me tell you, New Orleans was a wild party place that week!!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Yes, lemme know, maybe we can meet up...and I'll reveal you as an impostor, a Republican in disguise!!! :laugh:

I will take you for drinks at that hot bed Republicanism the Ritz Carlton and we can get loaded and talk politics, although that might be a little like the "Thunderdome" - "two enter - one survives!!" :laugh:

Seriously, if I am there, you and I are hookin up :cool:

[dissention]

Yo, everybody gonna get sick someday
But nobody knows how they gonna pay
Health care, managed care, HMOs
Ain't gonna work, no sir, not those
'Cause the thing that's the same in every one of these
Is these motherf*ckers there, the insurance companies!

(insurance, insurance)

You can call it single-payer or Canadian way
Only socialized medicine will ever save the day!
Come on now, lemme hear that dirty word -
SOCIALISM!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Yo, everybody gonna get sick someday
But nobody knows how they gonna pay
Health care, managed care, HMOs
Ain't gonna work, no sir, not those
'Cause the thing that's the same in every one of these
Is these motherf*ckers there, the insurance companies!

(insurance, insurance)

You can call it single-payer or Canadian way
Only socialized medicine will ever save the day!
Come on now, lemme hear that dirty word -
SOCIALISM!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I will take you for drinks at that hot bed Republicanism the Ritz Carlton and we can get loaded and talk politics, although that might be a little like the "Thunderdome" - "two enter - one survives!!" :laugh:

Seriously, if I am there, you and I are hookin up :cool:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I will take you for drinks at that hot bed Republicanism the Ritz Carlton and we can get loaded and talk politics, although that might be a little like the "Thunderdome" - "two enter - one survives!!" :laugh:

Seriously, if I am there, you and I are hookin up :cool:

You do realize gldstwmn will HAVE to be there!!!!!! Two against one - HMMMMMMMM b :cool:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
He certainly was, but he was the kind you could buy at Bread and Circus, not that processed garbage we're eating now. :laugh:

LMAO!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
You do realize gldstwmn will HAVE to be there!!!!!! Two against one - HMMMMMMMM b :cool:

She'll have to be there somehow! Lord, that would be quite a night...we'd convert you to extreme liberalism in two days, no sweat.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
She'll have to be there somehow! Lord, that would be quite a night...we'd convert you to extreme liberalism in two days, no sweat.

Not vice versa? :wavey: :wavey:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
Ooh, say that dirty word again...

Socialism.

Whisper it in my ear, babe. :laugh:

I'm hot for socialism.:)

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Interestingly, when I was in college and the RNC was held in New Orleans (where I essentially lived), I was a voluteer driver for UPI (now AP) and my passener was Jack Anderson, who mut have pissed someone off (Surpirse :laugh: ) because he was staying at like a Motel 8 across the river!! :laugh: He was fascinating!!!!



LMAO!

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
You do realize gldstwmn will HAVE to be there!!!!!! Two against one - HMMMMMMMM b :cool:

Only if I have a driver and a POSH hotel suite.;) Seriously though, it would be fabulous.

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I'm hot for socialism.:)

Me, too! The prospect of it makes me quiver...:nod: :D

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Only if I have a driver and a POSH hotel suite.;) Seriously though, it would be fabulous.

Do you seriusly think I would have otherwise? :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Do you seriusly think I would have otherwise? :laugh:

Not at all.:)

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
And why, exactly, should I try and understand the logic behind flying planes filled with innocent people into buildings filled with innocent people?

I understand other cultures and groups of people just as well as anyone else here. In fact, I am one of the more tolerant people that I know. But I cannot defend or even rationalize the kind of actions that result from following fundamentalist Islam. It is the great evil of our century...like it or not.

Did you ever see "At Play In the Fields of the Lord" with Kathy Bates, Daryl Hannah, and Tom Berenger? Quite an amazing movie, IMO. Really relates to what we were discussing about understanding other cultures and the logic behind the motives of other groups. :)

It's really long (over 3 hours) but it is a great flick. :nod:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
Did you ever see "At Play In the Fields of the Lord" with Kathy Bates, Daryl Hannah, and Tom Berenger? Quite an amazing movie, IMO. Really relates to what we were discussing about understanding other cultures and the logic behind the motives of other groups. :)

It's really long (over 3 hours) but it is a great flick. :nod:

Is it an older film? I never heard of it. The title is great.

Rob:cool:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
Is it an older film? I never heard of it. The title is great.

Rob:cool:

It's from 1991 from the same guy that directed Kiss of the Spider Woman (another fab flick!). Here's more information about "At Play..." from the Internet Movie Database:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0101373/

It's worth renting for Kathy Bates alone. She's fantastic. Her character goes through so many changes (well, they all do) that by the end, she literally goes insane. But I don't want to spoil it for ya!

:D

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
It still in no way enforces what the administration told us. If his possession of those buried weapons, which we more than likely gave him to kill the Iranians with and were buried before the UN resolutions, was justification of this joke of a war, I heartily disagree. You haven't said a lot of things that are out there, but this is definitely one of them. People are too quick to dispose of Shrub's lies.

As for Osama, Albright was 100% correct when she said we'll get an October surprise. I wouldn't be surprised if the supposed WMDs showed up around that time, too.

And you want something to salivate over? I think the capture of Saddam was very fishy and perhaps may have been a bit staged, much like the Jessica Lynch rescue (that rescue was a joke!).

Hat in hand - no chemical agents were gound in these mortar shells. I WAS WRONG YOU (AND OTHERS) WERE RIGHT on that point :laugh:

But, I gotta say that these were buried in the desert and never to my knowledge reported as required does smack of an unwillingness to abide by the the agreement with the UN, even if they were older than the agreement - the agreement was to report all such weapons, etc. :D

Also, I did not see this earlier, I am not disposing of W's lies. I have maintained all along that W flat out lied about the nuclear threat to gain support for this invasion. I think that was unnecessarily stupid and wrong and he should be taken to task for it if not impeached.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108390,00.html

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Hat in hand - no chemical agents were gound in these mortar shells. I WAS WRONG YOU WERE RIGHT on that point :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Sorry - I edited as you posted :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Sorry - I edited as you posted :)

No apologies necessary; the liberals scored one!

:wavey:

PS: Click "Take me to the Liberal Oasis!" ;)

[dissention]

Someone just emailed this to me, enjoy! :wavey:

GEORGE W. BUSH: "PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004."

MY RESUME

George W. Bush
The White House, USA

EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:

LAW ENFORCEMENT:

I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving
under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and
had my driver's license suspended for 30 days.

My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.

MILITARY:

I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL.

I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my
drug use.

By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid
combat duty in Vietnam.

COLLEGE:

I graduated from Yale University with a low C average.

I was a cheerleader.

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in
1975.

I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas.
The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal
that took land using taxpayer money.

With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil
industry(including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of
Texas.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies,
making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my
tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden
city in America.

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of
billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in
American history.

With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my
father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President
after losing by over 500,000 votes.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a
criminal record.

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of
over one billion dollars per week.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S.
Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S.
history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in
any 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month
period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of
the U.S. stock market.

In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their
jobs and that trend continues every month.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any
administration in U.S. history.

My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil
tanker named after her.

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S.
President.

I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the
most corporate campaign donations.

My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best
friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate
bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.

My political party used Enron private jets and corporate
attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court
during my election decision.

I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against
investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent
investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent
investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and
refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry
was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be
awarded government contracts.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any
President in U.S. history.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest
bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

I've broken more international treaties than any President in
U.S. history.

I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United
Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. "prisoners of war"
detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva
Convention.

I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

I set the record for fewest number of press conferences of any
President since the advent of television.

I set the the all-time record for most days on vacation in any
one-year period.

After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the
worst security failure in U.S. history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade
Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most
hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in
world history.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to
simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people),
shattering the record for protest against any person in the
history of mankind.

I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign
nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the
majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a
cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families
-- in war time.

In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for
attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I am the first President in history to have a majority of
Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to
world peace and security.

I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker
Buster," a WMD.

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

[dissention]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/oneill_charges_040113.html

A White House official confirms O'Neill's statements!

[strandinthewind]

W did not lose the Florida election, he won it - even the New York Times admits that!

Also, yes he lost the popular vote - but big deal, that is not how Pres. are elected. Everyone knows this, it has happened before, and they knew it going into the election.

If Gore had won the electoral vote, but not the popular vote (as was indicated would happen prior to the election interestingly enough) , I think you'd be making this agrument and I'd have to admit you were correct :laugh: :cool: :wavey:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
W did not lose the Florida election, he won it - even the New York Times admits that!

Also, yes he lost the popular vote - but big deal, that is not how Pres. are elected. Everyone knows this, it has happened before, and they knew it going into the election.

If Gore had won the electoral vote, but not the popular vote (as was indicated would happen prior to the election interestingly enough) , I think you's be making this agrument and I's have to admit you were correct :laugh: :cool: :wavey:

:D

We can pussyfoot around all we want, but the American people did not elect him. :mad:

[estranged4life]

said a very true statement about Al "I created the internet, Fleetwood Mac, the telephone, William Shatner, the Earth :laugh: ." Gore..."He didnt lose because of Florida, He lost because he could not win his own home state of Tennessee."

Brian j.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/oneill_charges_040113.html

A White House official confirms O'Neill's statements!

Again, even if this is true and even if Bush had a picture of SH on a dartboard in his office, regime change in Iraq was America's policy. So, they should have been working on a way to get rid of SH.

Also, the article states:
_______________________________________
In The Price of Loyalty, O'Neill says that from the very start of his administration, Bush was focused on ousting Saddam. Bush says that his policy at the time was merely a continuation of the Clinton administration's stance. White House aides have suggested O'Neill, whom Bush fired in December 2002, is merely trying to sell books.

Both the official who spoke to ABCNEWS and O'Neill have acknowledged that Bush had not yet made up his mind for a ground invasion at the start of his administration, but they say officials were told to find ways to get rid of the Iraqi leader.

"Getting Hussein was now the administration's focus, that much was already clear," O'Neill says in his book.
________________________________________________

So, even O'Neill admits W left all options open regarding how to acheive the policy of regime change :cool: So, when people (not necessarily you :cool: ) assert that W's essential continuation and augmentation of the former administration's plan to oust SH is somehow a bad act, I just have to cry foul because that is what they were supposed to be doing :laugh:


Also:
___________________________________________________

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld disputed O'Neill's account today. "I don't know what meetings he could have been in," Rumsfeld told reporters during a Pentagon briefing.
___________________________________________________

senility is a bad thing :laugh:

[dissention]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/189564E117AF585586256E17007E600A?OpenDocument&Headline=White+House+seeks+control+on+health,+safety

:eek:

"Under a new proposal, the White House would decide what and when the public would be told about an outbreak of mad cow disease, an anthrax release, a nuclear plant accident or any other crisis."

[dissention]

At the present moment, I don't believe a word that comes out of O'Neill's mouth. Not one word. Someone has gotten to him. :nod: I'll stick by anything he said before Monday, but nothing else. He's been gotten to.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
:D

We can pussyfoot around all we want, but the American people did not elect him. :mad:

Wrong - they did elect him.

The popular vote is meaningless.

America is a republic and that is how we elect Presidents.

For you statement "American people did not elect him" to be true and not misleading in that I think it asserts, although I could be wrong, just a hint of "W stole the office of the Presidency" :laugh: - I think it should read, "Although W failed to win the popular vote which means a majority of Americans did not vote for him, W won the election fair and square because the popular vote does not determine who wins an election, the electoral vote does that and W won the electoral vote by all recounts" :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

BrianJ - agreed poor Gore could not even win his home state - I mean come on :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
At the present moment, I don't believe a word that comes out of O'Neill's mouth. Not one word. Someone has gotten to him. :nod: I'll stick by anything he said before Monday, but nothing else. He's been gotten to.

But I think what he is saying now is not different than what he said Monday. I think the press spun it that way.

[estranged4life]

Originally posted by dissention
At the present moment, I don't believe a word that comes out of O'Neill's mouth. Not one word. Someone has gotten to him. :nod: I'll stick by anything he said before Monday, but nothing else. He's been gotten to.

about O'Neill on the "Today Show" earlier he sure didn't sound like a person who wanted to expose the President...

And what was really odd & confusing though is that he made sure to mention several times the co-author of the book (I cannot recall his name, But he was present on the "Today Show" appearance) should take a majority of the credit...

Brian j.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/189564E117AF585586256E17007E600A?OpenDocument&Headline=White+House+seeks+control+on+health,+safety

:eek:

"Under a new proposal, the White House would decide what and when the public would be told about an outbreak of mad cow disease, an anthrax release, a nuclear plant accident or any other crisis."

:eek: is right :laugh: I think they should release all information to a website and let the public determine, if they want to and can wade through it, what constitutes a threat. But, hey - what do i know :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
But I think what he is saying now is not different than what he said Monday. I think the press spun it that way.

No one light a match, I smell the pungent aroma of bull****! :laugh:

Until this week, he was a big detractor of Bush. He trashed him, plain and simple, in interviews AND in the book (which is fabulous, I just finished it). Then, as soon as ChimpCo started investigating him, he changed his tune. He's been gotten to, pal. :nod: :D

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
:eek: is right :laugh: I think they should release all information to a website and let the public determine, if they want to and can wade through it, what constitutes a threat. But, hey - what do i know :laugh:

:blob2: :blob2: :blob2:

:wavey:

[dissention]

Originally posted by estranged4life
about O'Neill on the "Today Show" earlier he sure didn't sound like a person who wanted to expose the President...

And what was really odd & confusing though is that he made sure to mention several times the co-author of the book (I cannot recall his name, But he was present on the "Today Show" appearance) should take a majority of the credit...

Brian j.

:nod:

He claims that the deaf man/blind people" quote was taken out of context, but that he's sorry about it.

Hmmmm, kinda strange that he only mentioned that *after* ChimpCo started investigating him...

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
No one light a match, I smell the pungent aroma of bull****! :laugh:

Until this week, he was a big detractor of Bush. He trashed him, plain and simple, in interviews AND in the book (which is fabulous, I just finished it). Then, as soon as ChimpCo started investigating him, he changed his tune. He's been gotten to, pal. :nod: :D

Not really. He has never said he hated Bush or that the Bush adminsitration was evil, etc. In his 60 Minutes interview (I think) , he insults Bush (blind room with deaf people), but the despite that rhetoric (which I assert may be true and funny but it also makes him look angry about being fired) - he never said W was hell bent on invading Iraq. He said all along that the administration was forming a plan, which they should be doing to be in accordance with America's lonstanding policy of regime change in Iraq. This is not inconsistent to me.

[strandinthewind]

Also, O'Neill wants to sell a book aned make a load of $$$$. So, anything he says, esp. the rhetoric, is a little suspect. :nod:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Not really. He has never said he hated Bush or that the Bush adminsitration was evil, etc. In his 60 Minutes interview (I think) , he insults Bush (blind room with deaf people), but the despite that rhetoric (which I assert may be true and funny but it also makes him look angry about being fired) - he never said W was hell bent on invading Iraq. He said all along that the administration was forming a plan, which they should be doing to be in accordance with America's lonstanding policy of regime change in Iraq. This is not inconsistent to me.

No, he never said he disliked Shrub or that he hated him, but he didn't have to: he did it well enough without coming out and saying it. Read the book, it's rather telling of his thoughts on Bush and his admin, and some of the best parts haven't even been picked up by the media. ;)

[dissention]

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~chazelle/politics/bush-article-nolink.html

AMAZING essay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
No, he never said he disliked Shrub or that he hated him, but he didn't have to: he did it well enough without coming out and saying it. Read the book, it's rather telling of his thoughts on Bush and his admin, and some of the best parts haven't even been picked up by the media. ;)

Its on the list behind many :laugh: I am kind of surprised O'Neill did not wait until Sept. 1, 2004 to release it. Talk about more of punch then. Sadly, the true things in the book will probably be forgotten or at least their effect lessened over the next 10 or so months.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Its on the list behind many :laugh: I am kind of surprised O'Neill did not wait until Sept. 1, 2004 to release it. Talk about more of punch then. Sadly, the true things in the book will probably be forgotten or at least their effect lessened over the next 10 or so months.

I know what you mean, there are so many I want to read. I've been wanting to read Joe Klein's book on the Clinton admin for a year. But the anti-Bush books take precedent. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~chazelle/politics/bush-article-nolink.html

AMAZING essay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[dissention]

Hey,

Whoopi is going to be talking politics on Hardball tonight. Should be fabulous! :nod:

:wavey:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/oneill_charges_040113.html

A White House official confirms O'Neill's statements!

Houston, we have a problem!:)

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
W did not lose the Florida election, he won it - even the New York Times admits that!



He only won because the recount was stopped. If all of the votes were recounted (which is what Gore should have asked for) I don't think Dumbo, I mean W, would be president.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by estranged4life
said a very true statement about Al "I created the internet, Fleetwood Mac, the telephone, William Shatner, the Earth :laugh: ." Gore..."He didnt lose because of Florida, He lost because he could not win his own home state of Tennessee."

Brian j.

True.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
At the present moment, I don't believe a word that comes out of O'Neill's mouth. Not one word. Someone has gotten to him. :nod: I'll stick by anything he said before Monday, but nothing else. He's been gotten to.

Agreed. Someone's twisting his arm.. There is a rumor that the Dems have had the galleys of this book for quite some time and have formulated part of their strategy from it.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
At the present moment, I don't believe a word that comes out of O'Neill's mouth. Not one word. Someone has gotten to him. :nod: I'll stick by anything he said before Monday, but nothing else. He's been gotten to.

Before I start spouting my scary, extreme liberal conspiracy theories, anyone want to take a crack as to why they might be doing this?

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by estranged4life
about O'Neill on the "Today Show" earlier he sure didn't sound like a person who wanted to expose the President...

And what was really odd & confusing though is that he made sure to mention several times the co-author of the book (I cannot recall his name, But he was present on the "Today Show" appearance) should take a majority of the credit...

Brian j.

I think an awful lot of people are interested in what Mr. O'Neill and Ron Suskind say in the book. I went to Barnes and Noble last night to get it and it had been sold out for hours.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
He only won because the recount was stopped. If all of the votes were recounted (which is what Gore should have asked for) I don't think Dumbo, I mean W, would be president.

Well, Florida did recount all of the votes twice and W still won - should they have kept counting until he did not? :laugh:

Then Gore, in his brilliance, said, let's just manually recount these jurisdictions in which I am popular - how's that for sleazy? The results of every recount I ever read about in those districts indicated W won those districts. So, perhaps I should rephrase - By the recount rules set by Gore, W won the election. :D

Interestingly, if Gore had sued to recount the state and had the court issue a uniform plan for the recount, the USSC could not have reached the decision it did. It reached its decision because votes were being counted differently in each county, which is a violation of the US Const.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Before I start spouting my scary, extreme liberal conspiracy theories, anyone want to take a crack as to why they might be doing this?

Form one conspiracy theorist to another :laugh: I think he took classified docs and they are threatening jail time - and rightly so if PO broke the law.

Also, I think all along PO has not hated the R party. I think he dislikes but not hates W partly because he got fired.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Form one conspiracy theorist to another :laugh: I think he took classified docs and they are threatening jail time - and rightly so if PO broke the law.

Also, I think all along PO has not hated the R party. I think he dislikes but not hates W partly because he got fired.

Oops! That was actually my reply to this statement:

"Under a new proposal, the White House would decide what and when the public would be told about an outbreak of mad cow disease, an anthrax release, a nuclear plant accident or any other crisis."

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Oops! That was actually my reply to this statement:

"Under a new proposal, the White House would decide what and when the public would be told about an outbreak of mad cow disease, an anthrax release, a nuclear plant accident or any other crisis."

Terrifying. Think along the lines of "The Americans are not in Bagdad - everthing is normal!" :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Terrifying. Think along the lines of "The Americans are not in Bagdad - everthing is normal!" :laugh:

Uh huh.:nod:

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I think an awful lot of people are interested in what Mr. O'Neill and Ron Suskind say in the book. I went to Barnes and Noble last night to get it and it had been sold out for hours.

I went to B&N yesterday, too, and I grabbed the last copy. The woman at the check-out told me that so many copies had been sold and restocked that she'd be glad if she never saw it again. :nod:

For the first time, I think this book of politics appeals to both neoconservatives (facists) and liberals (smart folks). :laugh:

I can't wait to see how else ChimpCo will spin this book!

[dissention]

Kerry is now locked in a dead-heat with Gephardt for second place in Iowa, according to the latest poll! And Dean quickly dwindling...

Dean Lead Shrinks in Iowa, Kerry gains
by John Whitesides political correspondent

DES MOINES, IA (Reuters)

"Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean held a shrinking three point lead and John Kerry moved into a dead heat with Richard Gephardt for second place in Iowa five days before the state's caucuses, according to a Reuters/MSNBC/Zogby poll released Wednesday.

In a shifting race for the Democratic campaign's first big prize, Dean dropped four percentage points to 24 percent in the rolling three-day tracking poll and Kerry gained four points to tie Gephardt in second place at 21 percent."

[strandinthewind]

I mean COME ON - this is classic crap and from ABC no less :laugh:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/dean_domestic_abuse_040114-1.html

[strandinthewind]

In addtition to putting them away, they should take all of their money away and I mean all of it - Do not leave them with one tiny jaguar - MOTHER FU$$ERS!!! Let them repay the debt they stole on the backs of millions :mad: Perhaps the $30 million fine does that.

Also, my fav. is regarding the wife - who must have had some cuplability to even be in the mess - the article states "Her attorney said the couple insisted on the five-month sentence to ensure that their two young sons have at least one parent at home. U.S. District Judge David Hittner demanded that he retain the right to alter Lea Fastow's term when he sentences her at a future date." Think they give that consideration to you or me or some poor black woman that the system has screwed into stealing a loaf of bread. AAARRRRGRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I mean COME ON - this is classic crap and from ABC no less :laugh:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/dean_domestic_abuse_040114-1.html

Agreed. What's the deal with Democratic presidential candidiates and state troopers? No politician is going to knowingly sign an affadavit in a divorce case involving domestic violence.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I mean COME ON - this is classic crap and from ABC no less :laugh:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/dean_domestic_abuse_040114-1.html

I saw that on World news Tonight and I just rolled my eyes. Even I thought that was ridiculous. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
I saw that on World news Tonight and I just rolled my eyes. Even I thought that was ridiculous. :laugh:

OMG - we all agree - ROB WHERE ARE YOU - a four way agreement might be cause for a cosmo :laugh:

[dissention]

Susan Estrich is on Fox News right now; gawd, I love that woman. She cracks me up and I *love* that voice. :nod:

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
OMG - we all agree - ROB WHERE ARE YOU - a four way agreement might be cause for a cosmo :laugh:

:nod: :nod: :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Susan Estrich is on Fox News right now; gawd, I love that woman. She cracks me up and I *love* that voice. :nod:

I know :laugh: I seem to remember she and the Coultergeist went at it once and Susan sort of had this "honey - you have stripper hair and you want me to take you seriously" look on her face :laugh: I want to say it was on Biily O's show way back when.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I know :laugh: I seem to remember she and the Coultergeist went at it once and Susan sort of had this "honey - you have stripper hair and you want me to take you seriously" look on her face :laugh: I want to say it was on Biily O's show way back when.

*scrambles to find a transcript*

If I find it, I'll post it!

:wavey:

[gldstwmn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/14/politics/campaigns/14MARR.html?th

Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Marriage

"The officials said they believed that the measure was especially timely because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see the federal government defend traditional marriage, after a decision by the highest court in Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that gay couples had a right to marry under the state's Constitution.

"This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conservatives and to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said."




They want to tell us how to live our lives but not if there is a nuclear accident or food contamination.

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/14/politics/campaigns/14MARR.html?th

Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Marriage

"The officials said they believed that the measure was especially timely because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see the federal government defend traditional marriage, after a decision by the highest court in Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that gay couples had a right to marry under the state's Constitution.

"This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conservatives and to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said."

They want to tell us how to live our lives but not if there is a nuclear accident or food contamination.

This makes me so f*cking mad that I see red. F*ck Bush and his beliefs, he shouldn't be pushing them on the whole country. The fact is that the country is split down the middle, fifty-fifty, so there is no majority. What he's trying to do is protect an institution that is abused beyond belief already and only keeping the people who love each other from having the right to marry. Marriage has absolutely nothing to do with the church, it has to do with the state. The state is the institution that grants the power to marry, not the church. The church only performs the ceremony. Why can't gay couples be married in town halls or by justice's of the peace? There is no reason why they shouldn't be granted that right. They are humans who want to marry the love of their life just as much as straight folks do. This whole proposal of ammending the Constitution is offensive, wrong, and utterly asinine. It's simply a way for some to force their religion and politics on others and it's SICKENING. Shrub can kiss my fat liberal ass and choke on another damn pretzel.

[gldstwmn]

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/metro/5660.php

Clark beats Dean in Ariz. poll

Two-man race?


Wesley Clark 39%

Howard Dean 32%


By C.J. Karamargin
ARIZONA DAILY STAR

"Wesley Clark is the new front-runner among Arizonans planning to vote in next month's Democratic presidential primary.

The latest Eyewitness News 4/Arizona Daily Star poll shows the retired Army general marched past Howard Dean to command the support of 39 percent of state voters. Dean, former governor of Vermont, has the backing of 32 percent.

Both candidates - Washington outsiders who never before mounted national campaigns - are well ahead of everyone else in the nine-person contest."

[gldstwmn]

Carol Moseley Braun is dropping out of the race and giving all of her support to Howard Dean!

[Rob67]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
OMG - we all agree - ROB WHERE ARE YOU - a four way agreement might be cause for a cosmo :laugh:

You better make that officially a FOUR way !!!!! :eek: :D :laugh: :laugh:


Rob:cool:

[Rob67]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
OMG - we all agree - ROB WHERE ARE YOU - a four way agreement might be cause for a cosmo :laugh:

Sorry guys...I am trying to juggle a social and professional life and still have time for the boards!!! I will try to keep up!:)

Rob:cool:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
This makes me so f*cking mad that I see red. F*ck Bush and his beliefs, he shouldn't be pushing them on the whole country. The fact is that the country is split down the middle, fifty-fifty, so there is no majority. What he's trying to do is protect an institution that is abused beyond belief already and only keeping the people who love each other from having the right to marry. Marriage has absolutely nothing to do with the church, it has to do with the state. The state is the institution that grants the power to marry, not the church. The church only performs the ceremony. Why can't gay couples be married in town halls or by justice's of the peace? There is no reason why they shouldn't be granted that right. They are humans who want to marry the love of their life just as much as straight folks do. This whole proposal of ammending the Constitution is offensive, wrong, and utterly asinine. It's simply a way for some to force their religion and politics on others and it's SICKENING. Shrub can kiss my fat liberal ass and choke on another damn pretzel.

I'll do ya one better and say the state has no business in the marriage/civil union/whatever business :laugh:

I say if you want to get married - go to your Church and do it- just do not expect ANY government entity to give you any benefits just because you exercised a religious ceremony that the govt. currently and IMO wrongly picks and chooses which marriages to sanction; why is it wrong for polygamists to marry just because Jerry Falwell does not like it?

When I say no rights for being married I mean NO rights for being married - no tax benefits, no automatic visitation, nothing. When you marry in your respective Church, let the Church provide you with the legal forms required to allow your spouse to care for you, a will, etc. Also, in my world there is only a, at the most, 20% fed. income tax and a similar state flat tax (10% perhaps); no estate (death) tax or donation of money tax exists.

How's that for liberal :cool:

Having said that, I fully realize my world will never happen essentially for two reasons. First, the mainstream religious organizations want to force their version of marriage on the populace in an apparently vain attempt to sustain the failing institution of marriage (I think it is sad marriage is a failing institution). In other words, they are scared that if the govt. does not sanction this event, it will die out and perhaps they will as well. Perhaps there is some truth in this, but many, many people get married because they love each other and for no other reason and they stay together, albeit that number appears to be dwindling.

Second, people (gay, straight, blue, pink, whatever) seem to look to various forms of government for validation. I mean it is almost like some, certainly not all, gay people think they will be "normal" (whatever that is) if the state says "we accept you and allow you to marry." I realize not all people have this view, but that is one of the big arguments supporting gay marriage - "let us be like you," etc. I don't get it because why do people care if the govt. validates their life in any way as long as they are not hurting someone and as long as they get the same rights, etc.

So, I think until society can get over these hurdles, I say let any consenting people marry. Unfortunately, the religious conservatives of the world will try never to let that happen because it is very, very easy to point at gay people, call them evil and the source of America's problems, and then ask for a donation to fight this "evil" that is going after your otherwise straight sons and daughters :rolleyes:

Finally, currenty, the numbers to pass the Const. Amendment are not there by a fairly wide margin. While this could change, I do not see it as changing. Interestingly, I think the idea of the Const. Amendment was put out there solely to reelect Bush. They know they cannot get the Amendment through, but they know that they can pick up some of the 6 to 8% of the total swing votes out there by suggesting the Amendment. I mean if you are for gay marriage, the odds are you already are the type of person who has made up their mind not to vote for W and you did not vote for him last time. But, if you are on the fence about W and/or are a far right religious conservative who will not go to the polls because you are disgusted by W's free spending or his abandonment of what you view as his core base, W's appearance of being strong against gays could woo you to the voting booth next November. From that vantage point, it is a political "win win."

It is sickening to me that people have this much hate in their hearts and that they will use one group to further their agenda :mad:

[strandinthewind]

How about this article from Fox News :laugh:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108422,00.html

[strandinthewind]

And - apparently, the Pentagon is not happy with Halliburton

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108450,00.html

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Carol Moseley Braun is dropping out of the race and giving all of her support to Howard Dean!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh, Carol! I love you to death, but good lord. I'm quite disappointed.

She was just on New England Cable News last night talking baout how she's in it to win. I knew she never should have gone on Hannity and Colmes; they got to her!! :laugh:

[dissention]

Hey Carne--

I guess you were right about Carol having a place in the Dean administration if he's elected. :nod: Who knows, maybe he'll appoint her VP. :D I'd support them if they got the nomination.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Hey Carne--

I guess you were right about Carol having a place in the Dean administration if he's elected. :nod: Who knows, maybe he'll appoint her VP. :D I'd support them if they got the nomination.

Speaking of VP's, Tim Russert was on Leno last night and they were talking about how W could select Condoleeza Rice (sp.?) as the VP if Cheney backs out for heath reasons. Now, that is an interesting choice and it would be historical if they win.

Also, I liked Carol and am sorry to see her go. :(

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Speaking of VP's, Tim Russert was on Leno last night and they were talking about how W could select Condoleeza Rice (sp.?) as the VP if Cheney backs out for heath reasons. Now, that is an interesting choice and it would be historical if they win.

Also, I liked Carol and am sorry to see her go. :(

Bush won't be re-elected, so we don't have to worry about anything. :laugh:

*think positive, dammit*

I am rather disappointed that Carol decided to pack it in. I rallied behind her because I believed in her and her integrity, but the minute things get rough, she walks out. She could've at least waited until after the caucus. But, I firmly believe that her and Dean struck a deal, maybe for VP. I'd bet money on it. Either way, her career is back in full swing and she's now a household name. She's been the most successful and recognizable female candidate in history, so she did fantastic, even if she did give up. :D

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Bush won't be re-elected, so we don't have to worry about anything. :laugh:

*think positive, dammit*

I am rather disappointed that Carol decided to pack it in. I rallied behind her because I believed in her and her integrity, but the minute things get rough, she walks out. She could've at least waited until after the caucus. But, I firmly believe that her and Dean struck a deal, maybe for VP. I'd bet money on it. Either way, her career is back in full swing and she's now a household name. She's been the most successful and recognizable female candidate in history, so she did fantastic, even if she did give up. :D

I agree - she was and is. I think she just saw the handwriting on the wall and perhaps was running low on cash. Her as a VP to anyone would be great IMO!!!!!

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I agree - she was and is. I think she just saw the handwriting on the wall and perhaps was running low on cash. Her as a VP to anyone would be great IMO!!!!!

Oh, she was going bankrupt! She was in so much debt. She missed the deadline to file for government assistance and it had a terrible effect on her. Unfortunate, because I love her.

[dissention]

John McEnroe is getting his very own liberal talk show on CNBC. :D It starts in February, I believe, and will air right after Dennis Miller's show.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
Bush won't be re-elected, so we don't have to worry about anything. :laugh:

*think positive, dammit*

I am rather disappointed that Carol decided to pack it in. I rallied behind her because I believed in her and her integrity, but the minute things get rough, she walks out. She could've at least waited until after the caucus. But, I firmly believe that her and Dean struck a deal, maybe for VP. I'd bet money on it. Either way, her career is back in full swing and she's now a household name. She's been the most successful and recognizable female candidate in history, so she did fantastic, even if she did give up. :D

I was thinking cabinet position, although VP would be a brilliant move. The 'Pubs are probably having a coronary over the thought of this.

[dissention]

Does anyone know whether or not they found Saddam's money that we were saying he had? ChimpCo claimed that he had a cache of cash, but I've heard nothing about it. Kind of funny that if they did find it, they couldn't have anything to do with it. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
Does anyone know whether or not they found Saddam's money that we were saying he had? ChimpCo claimed that he had a cache of cash, but I've heard nothing about it. Kind of funny that if they did find it, they couldn't have anything to do with it. :laugh:

As far as I know, the money hasn't been found. It's probably in Switzerland somewhere.

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
As far as I know, the money hasn't been found. It's probably in Switzerland somewhere.

Well, even if they do find it, it's still Saddam's money. :laugh: Under article 60 of the Geneva Convention, at least. ;)

PS: Why do you suppose that the Right Wing made a fuss over MoveOn.org and their Hitler ads, yet made no mention of this from the Free Republic?

http://democrats.com/scrub/freep-dean-hitler/

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Well, even if they do find it, it's still Saddam's money. :laugh: Under article 60 of the Geneva Convention, at least. ;)

PS: Why do you suppose that the Right Wing made a fuss over MoveOn.org and their Hitler ads, yet made no mention of this from the Free Republic?

http://democrats.com/scrub/freep-dean-hitler/

Well, they could levy fines at his trial(s) (both international and perhaps by Iraqi citizens if allowed) and if they can prove the American cash (which I think it is) was ill gotten (which it most certainly was at this point), I am pretty sure they can take it and use it for Iraq. So, hopefully Iraq will get his money one way or the other and rightly so IMO. Then, they can use it to pay off the Franch and Russians, who had no hope of repayment but for the U.S.' intervention and regime change ;) ;)

[gldstwmn]

It's been reported that Hussein has prostate cancer, so if he dies, I'm not sure what happens with his money.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
It's been reported that Hussein has prostate cancer, so if he dies, I'm not sure what happens with his money. Well, I do not know Iraqi law, which would appear to prevail, but if he left a will, the money would go to the heirs. If not, then it would go to whomever the state designates as his heirs. Personally, I am sure the Iraqi people will have no problem taking SH's millions if not billions, that is if the Swiss banks will turn the money over a la the Jewish money they still have after the Nazi regime in Germany.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Well, I do not know Iraqi law, which would appear to prevail, but if he left a will, the money would go to the heirs. If not, then it would go to whomever the state designates as his heirs. Personally, I am sure the Iraqi people will have no problem taking SH's millions if not billions, that is if the Swiss banks will turn the money over a la the Jewish money they still have after the Nazi regime in Germany.

I doubt the Swiss are going to turn that money over anyone but the account holders. A lot of it is probably im the name of the wives and children.