Fleetwood Mac on Dick Clark's *Primetime* New Year's Rockin' Eve

[Johnny Stew]

From Musicstation.com (http://www.musicstation.com/cgi-bin/rotv/rotv_cgi?search_type=description&sort_by=date&type=tv&search=select+listing_id%2C+episode_id%2C+episode_name%2C+listing_date%2C+listing_time%2C+network%2C +show_name%2C++show_id%2C+network_id+from+r_rotv_listing_table+where+sort_date+%3E+%28sysdate+%2D+1% 29+AND+episode_id+IN+%28select+episode_id+from+r_artist_epi_map+where+artist_id+%3D+155379%29+ORDER+ BY+sort_date%2C+sort_time%2C+network&page=1&curr_res=%2Fstudio%2Frotv%2Frotv_cgi%3Fsearch_type%3Dartist_exact%26sort_by%3Dartist%26search%3D1553 79%26type%3Dtv%26page%3D1)....


Dick Clark's Primetime New Year's Rockin' Eve
(ABC) American Broadcasting Corporation
Wednesday - December 31, 2003
10:00 pm - 11:00 pm ET

Featured Artists:
Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Fleetwood Mac, Kiss, Avril Lavigne, Tim McGraw

Dick Clark reports "live" on the festivities in Times Square, New York. Joining him will be correspondents Steve Doocy from "Fox & Friends" and Mario Lopez, who will report on other happenings around New York City. Clark will also introduce highlight performances from some of this past year's most successful tours, including Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Fleetwood Mac, KISS, Avril Lavigne and Tim McGraw.

[Pisces Queen]

Please let them play Thrown Down oh please please please!

[Neal]

Originally posted by Pisces Queen
Please let them play Thrown Down oh please please please!

That would be awesome, but more then likely we're in for another painful performance of Peacekeeper... :(

[dissention]

Originally posted by Pisces Queen
Please let them play Thrown Down oh please please please!

Dream on, silly dreamer...:(

It's another half-baked rendition of that song we're all sick of...Peacekeeper. :rolleyes: I probably won't even tune in.

[Johnny Stew]

Since they did "Peacekeeper" on the AMAs, I think (and hope!) they'd do "Say You Will" on this broadcast.

The site is saying the show will feature "highlights" of the year's biggest tours, so I'm also assuming this will not be a new performance, but a pre-filmed one.

Some European fans have said they've seen a live video for "Say You Will," that seems to have been filmed at the same time as the "Peacekeeper" video that aired on VH1 earlier this year... so maybe we'll just be seeing that.

[CarneVaca]

I'll take bets again: Peacekeeper.

[sodascouts]

I'm rooting for SYW, because it plays better live, but.... I'm pretty sure it'll be Peacekeeper again.

[diamondsnake]

I hope it is Say You Will because Stevie rules! Lindsey's Peacekeeper is bad! I prefered Ashanti's Rain On Me at the AMAs or even Britney Spears's In the Zone performance that night. Sorry to Say...

But I would settle for Say You Will! Even though I am hoping for Thrown Down, which would make sense since it is the new single and Peacekeeper was a single from almost a year ago!

[celestenadia]

Thank you for the news Johnny Stew.
They are so predictable, so you'd figure they WOULD do
"Peacekeeper".
However, in light of the fact that it IS New Year's Eve, they
might surpise us, and pull "Say You Will" out of
the hat since the subject matter is lighter.

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally posted by celestenadia
Thank you for the news Johnny Stew.
They are so predictable, so you'd figure they WOULD do
"Peacekeeper".
However, in light of the fact that it IS New Year's Eve, they
might surpise us, and pull "Say You Will" out of
the hat since the subject matter is lighter.
Good thinking Celestinadia! :nod:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I was thinkin they might show an old song this time...Go Your Own Way...or The Chain


Chris

[Merf]

I'm going to guess they show SYW from an earlier show (maybe in Boston since they were filming then) because it's just "cuter" on stage, with Stevie's dancing and the little dance they do during the solo. But I won't be surprised if we see "Peacekeeper" again. Oh well, I'm sure I'll just be off somewhere partying anyway. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

I will be in NYC for NYE. Hopefully, hey will be there!!!!!!! Am I going to have to have cocktils at "Stevie's Waldorf" just to make sure :laugh:

I certainly hope they do not play PK. It is a snore and they sound bad. I think they should play something rockin' like Second Hand News, Eyes, etc. But, I am a dreamer.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I hope it is Say You Will because Stevie rules! Lindsey's Peacekeeper is bad! I prefered Ashanti's Rain On Me at the AMAs or even Britney Spears's In the Zone performance that night. Sorry to Say...

Taste is a matter of taste. But from a musical and lyrical standpoint, Peacekeeper blows Say You Will away. Hands down. As for the other comparisons, I don't even know what they are...

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Taste is a matter of taste. But from a musical and lyrical standpoint, Peacekeeper blows Say You Will away. Hands down. As for the other comparisons, I don't even know what they are...

Well, SYW is a happy song and PK is not. Having said that, I would put her use of the phrase "fever dance" to describe immediate love up against anything in the sardonic PK. But, everyone likes different things and I like them both, just not PK live :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

In truth, PK live has fallen flat. But I wasn't terribly impressed with the live versions of SYW I've heard. Musically, PK is far more interesting. At least to my ear.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
In truth, PK live has fallen flat. But I wasn't terribly impressed with the live versions of SYW I've heard. Musically, PK is far more interesting. At least to my ear.

PK, esp. the first version with LB only, was one of the most musically superior things to me on SYW. I think he should do Murrow like he did at the PBS Sounstage thing. The song is perfect for La Nicks to chime in. But, I am afraid their performance will be rote, but at least we get to see them. :cool:

[diamondsnake]

On a somewhat different note, am I the only one that thinks that Stevie is drowned out during the chorus of Say You Will (live versions from the tour, at least)? Whenever I listen to a bootleg of this song from the tour I can hear nothing but a couple of annoying backup singers and Stevie's voice is so faint. Is it supposed to be like this? I don't understand why they wouldn't want her to sing this part though.

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Thrown Down will never happen. Deep down, I think we all know that. I really don't care to hear another live rendition of Peacekeeper, and I think they gave up on Say You Will. So, I think they should pull out a nostalgic oldie for New Year's Eve. I vote for anything except Dreams, Rhiannon, Big Love or Landslide.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
On a somewhat different note, am I the only one that thinks that Stevie is drowned out during the chorus of Say You Will (live versions from the tour, at least)? Whenever I listen to a bootleg of this song from the tour I can hear nothing but a couple of annoying backup singers and Stevie's voice is so faint. Is it supposed to be like this? I don't understand why they wouldn't want her to sing this part though.

I am pretty sure it was her choice to sing the power part because on the sniglets of video we saw on the fanclub site before the record was released, Stevie was telling LB he had to sing the high parts.

[rianbay1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CarneVaca
Taste is a matter of taste. But from a musical and lyrical standpoint, Peacekeeper blows Say You Will away. Hands down. As for the other comparisons, I don't even know what they are...


If "Taste is a matter of taste," then practice what you preach. I love both songs. I don't think one blows the other away. It's like comparing apples and oranges...like saying "Everybody finds out" blows "Steal Your heart away" out of the water or comparing "Miranda" to "thrown Down." It's all a matter of opinion.

[Cammie]

:wavey: Ohhh Plllease! Feel the Fever...COME!
or Second Hand News!Not sad Pk.! Sky;)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by rianbay1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CarneVaca
Taste is a matter of taste. But from a musical and lyrical standpoint, Peacekeeper blows Say You Will away. Hands down. As for the other comparisons, I don't even know what they are...


If "Taste is a matter of taste," then practice what you preach. I love both songs. I don't think one blows the other away. It's like comparing apples and oranges...like saying "Everybody finds out" blows "Steal Your heart away" out of the water or comparing "Miranda" to "thrown Down." It's all a matter of opinion.

I do practice what I preach. I said taste is a matter of taste, then I discussed the musicality angle. Like it or not, Peacekeeper musically is superior to Say You Will. And in fact, just about every Lindsey song in SYW is superior to Stevie's stuff. See, he actually is striking more than two notes vocally and coming up with some fairly compelling melodies.

If your thing is drone-like trance vocals a la Illume and Say You Will, that is a matter of taste. But that does not musically a better song make.

[wondergirl9847]

Oh how I missed you Carne. :D

I like PK better of the two, but dang her for writing that catchy chorus!!! :mad:

LOL

[strandinthewind]

Carne - I agree Stevie's voice is limited by its own nature (perhaps self-imposed) in Illume. In fact and although I like the song, I will never get why she chose to sing it like that, when IMO she could have and should have branched out a little more. I think it would have made the IMO beautiful imagery of the song more compelling.

But, I submit the vocal on "Smile at You" is the superior vocal on the record from an academic standpoint (I am not discussing the relevance or quality of the song). In it, she goes into two octaves and nails it. Thrown Down probably is the second. Her voice literally floats in most of that song.

Nothing LB does on SYW approaches that vocally. Rather, LB's vocals are mostly heavily produced in that he likes to distort the human voice with a filter, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with that, in fact he is very clever and effective at doing it, esp. considering singing, although he certainly can sing, is not his strongest suit (no slam - even he admits Stevie's got a great voice). In fact, my only problem with that process is it can be difficult to reproduce live a la PK. But, anyone at the PBS Soundstage taping will readily tell you, although it was considerably pared down compared to the album cut, "Murrow" translated incredibly well. There just weren't 10 or so gimmicky vocal noises and words floating around like on the record.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I do practice what I preach. I said taste is a matter of taste, then I discussed the musicality angle. Like it or not, Peacekeeper musically is superior to Say You Will. And in fact, just about every Lindsey song in SYW is superior to Stevie's stuff. See, he actually is striking more than two notes vocally and coming up with some fairly compelling melodies.

If your thing is drone-like trance vocals a la Illume and Say You Will, that is a matter of taste. But that does not musically a better song make.

You are speaking on a matter of opinion here, and calling it fact...saying a song is better is opinion, no matter how you say it. Who says that a great song has to have atleast two notes vocally? I mean really...and what you consider compelling melodies are not what everyone else does. I personally like the song Peacekeeper and I agree I would say it is musically a better song, but I don't think that's the case for all of Lindsey's songs on Say You Will. (Although I think Peacekeeper is rather boring live, and would much rather hear Say You Will live.)

Opinions are what make a song good to you..what YOU Like...and you can say there's a difference, but there is not. I don't think the guitar part in Peacekeeper is any more artistic than the guitar part in Say You Will..do you?

Chris

[Carolina Girl]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
If your thing is drone-like trance vocals a la Illume and Say You Will, that is a matter of taste.

That's what has always bothered me about Say You Will: it seems to be sung in the wrong...tempo? key? I have no musical training, so I don't know the right words to use here, but to me the lyrics seem to want a more upbeat song. The lyrics are catchy, and I thing it could have been a very popular song, but something is just not quite right about it.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Like it or not, Peacekeeper musically is superior to Say You Will. And in fact, just about every Lindsey song in SYW is superior to Stevie's stuff. See, he actually is striking more than two notes vocally and coming up with some fairly compelling melodies.I'm not going to get into a "fight" here, and I'm going to preface my comments by again stating how much I love Lindsey's music, but, come on... how many fans and critics have noted the distinct similarities between many of Lindsey's 'SYW' tunes and those he's recorded before?
Even "Peacekeeper"... which is the song you're directly referring to here... has been "criticized" for a striking similarity to Paul Simon's "Kodachrome."

And just about every sonic trick he used on the production of this album, is something he's used on a previous recording.

Now, I should hope that Lindsey can come up with compelling instrumentation... after all, he's a playing musician and a seasoned producer... but to say his music is "superior" to Stevie's, or vice versa, is going some, and absolutely a matter of opinion.

I like this critique by Marcello Carlin... "If Stevie provides the emotional adventure, Lindsey provides the sonics."

To get back to the topic of the thread, I think "Say You Will" would be more fitting for a New Year's Eve special. The lyrics are hopeful and romantic, tempered by the wisdom of someone who's seen the good and bad aspects of love, and the chorus is exceedingly catchy. Not to mention that it's just plain fun.

[snwriter]

Perfectly said Johnny Stew.

[diamondsnake]

Stevie does not "drone" or sing "two notes" on the album. Her voice is unique, sexy, myterious, raspy... and needless to say, I love it! Of course this is just my opinion.

Her voice is obviously not for everyone. In fact, everytime I pop in a Stevie record my sister chimes in with "Is that her real voice?"

And as another person mentioned, listen to Smile at You or Running through the Garden. Her vocals rock on those songs especially.

And from what I have heard this tour, Stevie's voice is "far superior" to Lindsey's, who appears to just scream out the lyrics. Of course, I can understand that because I am sure his guitar playing takes a lot out of him.

And Say You Will is not week lyricly if you ask me. I love it, it is so romantic and Lindsey's guitar solo just adds to the romance of that song. Almost as if no words need to be said. That little guitar solo is like the time when Stevie's old flame is supposed to think about getting back together with her and he is supposed to think about giving her "one more chance". So maybe that is why there is not a lot of lyrics in that song. Of course, this is just how I interpret SYW.

And I bet the band likes SYW better then Peacekeeper seeing how it is the title of the album.

[CarneVaca]

Y'all take a deep breath now, heah?

Strip it down. That's all. Strip every single one of those songs down to the bare vocal and essential rhythm. Go to Dissention's site and listen to some of the center-channel mixes, particularly Red Rover. Everyone of Lindsey's songs on SYW is more dynamic from a melodic standpoint. Strand makes a good point about Smile at You. But outside of that one, Stevie rarely stretches her vocals in a melodically interesting way. We can all discuss opinions of what we like and don't like, but you want to insist that from a musical standpoint her songs are better, you either don't know better or you're kidding yourself.

And by the way, Peacekeeper was changed for SYW to fit her vocal. I'm convinced of it. In the process, it became a less appealing song.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Strip it down. That's all. Strip every single one of those songs down to the bare vocal and essential rhythm. Go to Dissention's site and listen to some of the center-channel mixes, particularly Red Rover. Everyone of Lindsey's songs on SYW is more dynamic from a melodic standpoint.I'm going to admit something here, that I didn't dare say before for fear of a flame-war... but I'll just go ahead and say it.
I think Lindsey's vocal on the center-channel mix of "Red Rover" (from dissention's site) is awful.

In fact, as I listened to it the first time, my brother was in the room and said, "what the hell is that crap?"

Thankfully the full-production masks that.

So if you're going to use that mix as an example, I can't help you out there, because I see nothing more "dynamic" about that track than the center-channel mixes of Stevie's songs.

Her stuff holds up extremely well, even when it's damn-near acapella. In fact, some of her songs are even more arresting in this context.
They're not subservient to the music going on around them.

No, she doesn't have the greatest range vocally, but the appeal of her voice, and her delivery, goes beyond perfect-pitch. That, coupled with the unique outlook conveyed in her lyrics, is what causes her songs to be infinitely more interesting to me than any other artist out there.

Of course, that's simply my opinion. ;)

[wondergirl9847]

I just wanna pop in and say Smile At You has Stevie's greatest vocal on the album! The breaks in her voice are phenominal!!

I have to disagree with ya Christopher on the vocal argument, but it's all about opinion anyways. I think Lindsey's voice is AMAZING this tour!! I just posted in his forum about him singing Say Goodbye (also, I didn't mention it, but NGBA is greatness too!) and how, to me, he sounded flawless and perfect. His breaks are also phenominal this tour. Stevie did a great break too during, I think, Goodbye Baby or some song and I was like "WOW, that sounded cool!!"

Stevie has a unique voice, unlike any other, but this tour, IMO, is Lindsey's showcase in more ways than one. :nod:

She really made me happy when she got a lil crazy on Rhiannon ("weeeellll, I don't THINK you do!!"), Gold Dust Woman ("go hooooooooomeeee aaaahhhh!!!"), Silver Springs and Stand Back this tour, especially in England. I was like "Come on, Stevie!!!!" when she'd pull that mic and go for it!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
And by the way, Peacekeeper was changed for SYW to fit her vocal. I'm convinced of it. In the process, it became a less appealing song. I find the album version much more appealing than the 'Gift Of Screws' version.

I thought the addition of Stevie's harmony vocals and the ditching of the tinny drum-machine were terrific improvements.

But, for some reason or another, it's damn near lifeless in a live context... and I don't think it would have made any difference if Lindsey had never changed it.

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I'm going to admit something here, that I didn't dare say before for fear of a flame-war... but I'll just go ahead and say it.
I think Lindsey's vocal on the center-channel mix of "Red Rover" (from dissention's site) is awful.

In fact, as I listened to it the first time, my brother was in the room and said, "what the hell is that crap?"

LMAO!! I had Red Rover on really loud one day and my mom comes in "What are you listening to?" in a disgusted voice. I was thinking "A masterpiece, but you wouldn't understand that." LOL

I am DYING to hear the Soundstage Red Rover to hear his voice live without the production covering it up!!!!!!! If they cut that out...HEADS WILL ROLL!!!!! :mad:

I can't say this enough, but it's so weird how one song can make a person break down with tears of sheer joy and make another cringe like they are about to get shot. :laugh: Ahhh, the complexities of the human race. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
LMAO!! I had Red Rover on really loud one day and my mom comes in "What are you listening to?" in a disgusted voice. I was thinking "A masterpiece, but you wouldn't understand that." LOL

I can't say this enough, but it's so weird how one song can make a person break down with tears of sheer joy and make another cringe like they are about to get shot. :laugh: Ahhh, the complexities of the human race. ;) *lol*
I know how you feel, Christy!
Since my brother had such a negative reaction to the center-channel mix of "Red Rover," I wanted to prove to him that Lindsey still rocks, so I played "Murrow"... which, in my opinion, is nothing short of genius.

Unfortunately, he just shrugged his shoulders, said, "it's over-produced," and walked off. :(

Like you said, it's amazing how a song can just absolutely blow one person away, while leaving someone else cold.

[CarneVaca]

Well, Johnny, what can I say? Sometimes there's no accounting for poor taste. ;)

[CarneVaca]

And by the way, your brother is right about Murrow. It is overproduced, as is much of the album. That doesn't necessarily make it bad though.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Well, Johnny, what can I say? Sometimes there's no accounting for poor taste. ;) Oh, I whole-heartedly agree with you there, buddy. ;)

[strandinthewind]

Interestingly, if La Nicks' songs are musically "at fault," a position I do not take in general, I submit that "fault" belongs mostly to LB. After all, he was the producer. He drastically altered several of her songs from the original demos I have heard. Also, no slam to Stevie, but she pretty much is not capable of this level of production.

A good example of this is "Goodbye Baby." The demo for this song was just Stevie at a piano playing a very, very spare arrangement consisting of two, possibly three chords and her singing in that incredible 70's high, high voice (sheebus! ). While the vocal melody, though lower and softer, on SYW is pretty much the same as the piano demo. with added lyrics and a new chorus, musically, the cut on SYW is very, very different. John is playing the original piano melody with the bass notes and LB is playing a new and IMO very interesting guitar overlay (Ba Ba Bum, Ba Ba Bum, Ba Ba Bum . . . ) onto the new gauze-like synth parts. So, the sparse original musical construction of the demo was completely altered - very successfully IMO - by LB.

Another good example is "Thrown Down." LB's new riff on this is just brilliant as are John and Mick's new rythm parts. LB's soft repeating of "together together together together" is also just great production. However, LB's production of the chorus on the SYW regular cut as opposed to the "Wall of Sound" cut just, IMO, sits there and goes no where in relation to her voice dancing with the lyrics in the non-chorus part of the song. Interestingly, the chorus on the DVD of SYW is slightly different in that it has an echo harmony after each phrase e.g "Thrown Down (then higher Thrown Down") - "Like a barricade" (then higher "Like a Barricade"), etc. This arrangement works much better than the reg. CD cut IMO. It lifts the chorus up and makes it stad out from the rest of the song.

Stevie made a comment about leaving for the mixing of the record saying she really would not have been able to do it because LB had labored for hours laying many, many tracks and parts for each song that only he knew what was going on in them :laugh: Ah - the tortured genius of LB

[BlueGrass]

I have a question regaurding the other SYW demos of like SYHA and SYW that sound more raw and live. Are these really early mixes or just someone playing around with the sound?

[Cammie]

:wavey: Hope they use a Mac Rocker like Come!:eek:
Not the changed Peacekeeper!!! A female's
voice makes the lyrics irrelavent... it is not
about a romance...its about Life...a man is
crying from his gut...it ruins the dynamics!!
The man is scared for his family so He Kills!

"Take no prisoners...ONLLLY... KILLLLL!!!":confused:
Not exactly New Years Eve lyrics for NYC!!!

Say You Will or Say Goodbye would be better!;):)

Okay...Now you can "let me have it"! Just MHO!Sky

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Cammie
:wavey: Hope they use a Mac Rocker like Come!:eek:
Not the changed Peacekeeper!!! A female's
voice makes the lyrics irrelavent... it is not
about a romance...its about Life...a man is
crying from his gut...it ruins the dynamics!!
The man is scared for his family so He Kills!


Interesting observation. I'm going to think about that for a minute...

[Merf]

Not the changed Peacekeeper!!! A female's
voice makes the lyrics irrelavent... it is not
about a romance...its about Life...

:confused:

So you're saying that a female voice is only suitable to sing romantic lyrics? That a female voice makes the lyrics "irrelevant" if said lyrics are NOT of a romantic nature? I'm sorry, but I find that completely off base and unfair to female singer/songwriters everywhere (including and especially Stevie Nicks, whose voice you find so deplorable on a song Lindsey wrote and wanted her to sing as well.) Let us not forget it was Lindsey's choice to add Stevie's vocal, and if he felt it made the song "irrelevant" he wouldn't have added them. Bottom line.

"Come" on New Year's Rockin' Eve? I doubt it highly. :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Merf, I think Cammie meant that Lindsey decided to turn Peacekeeper into a romantic song after the fact. He didn't write it as such. I don't believe the implication was that Stevie can't sing anything but romantic songs. That's clearly not the case.

It is important to remember the point you made: that lindsey wanted Stevie in the song.

[Merf]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
It is important to remember the point you made: that lindsey wanted Stevie in the song.

I see your point. Thanks, Carne.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Her stuff holds up extremely well, even when it's damn-near acapella. In fact, some of her songs are even more arresting in this context.

Have you heard the center mix of Illume? That sucker's painful.

IMO, Stevie's voice has been very limited since the late 80s, that's just a fact. She did so much damage to it back in the day. Lately, when it comes to vocals, it's hit or miss with her. TISL was pro-tooled to death and even then, although I like the album a lot, there are some atrocious vocals on it. Now for SYW. The vocal on Thrown Down (album version) is another painful thing to sit through. It's flat, droning, and has nothing special to it. The emotion seems faked and more vocals from Lindsey are desired. This vocal makes the one on Destiny Rules seem golden.

The song Say You Will is rather bland. It's a sunny pop tune with nothing unique about it. LeAnn Rimes could do it just as well as Stevie. She doesn't sing so much as talk on it and it wouldn't leave anyone with the impression that Stevie is a particularly good singer.

Sorry, but I think Stevie's granny voice rears it's ugly head once in awhile.

But I still love her.

[diamondsnake]

[i] TISL was pro-tooled to death and even then, although I like the album a lot, there are some atrocious vocals on it. [/B]

What do you mean by "pro-tooled"?

Also, what vocals on TISL are atrocious? I love her voice now. It is great and I dare say I like her c. 2000 voice better then her c. 1970 voice. Of course she doesn't have as much range, but I just can't get enough of her "rasp".

[Jen77]

Also, what vocals on TISL are atrocious? I love her voice now. It is great and I dare say I like her c. 2000 voice better then her c. 1970 voice. Of course she doesn't have as much range, but I just can't get enough of her "rasp".

:wavey:
I just wanted to say that I agree:nod: :laugh:

Jen~*

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
What do you mean by "pro-tooled"?

Also, what vocals on TISL are atrocious? I love her voice now. It is great and I dare say I like her c. 2000 voice better then her c. 1970 voice. Of course she doesn't have as much range, but I just can't get enough of her "rasp".

I love her newer, raspy voice better, too. It's much stronger than it was 15 years ago. Listening to the studio version of Silver Springs makes me want to stick my head in a gas oven; it's whinier than anything I've ever heard.

By saying pro-tooled, I mean "fixed." Over-produced, made to sound a lot better than it actually is, etc. It sounds to me that they did a lot of post-production work to her vocals, and the pro-tool engineers even get credit under each of the lyrics.

What vocals on TISL are bad? Parts of Candlebright, Everyday (the whole song), most of It's Only Love (sounds like it was recorded while she was still smoking a pack of Kools a day), and Too Far From Texxxxxxxaaaaaaasssssssss. The rest of the album ranges from amazing to okay.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
I love her newer, raspy voice better, too. It's much stronger than it was 15 years ago.That statement seems to contradict what you said in your prior post about her voice now sounding flat, droning, etc., but I guess I can see how you can both love it and hate it at the same time.

Frankly, I love her voice now... pure and simple. But I guess no one would really be surprised to hear that!

You mentioned "It's Only Love" as an example of a "bad" vocal, but I guess I'm not hearing what you're hearing, because that's one of the most nuanced and gentle vocals on the entire album. She hits some very pretty notes during the course of that song.

With "Illumé," I tend to ignore comments about "droning" vocals, because in my opinion, that's all part of the framework of the song. The track starts out slow, almost like a chant, then builds in intensity... then it sort of bottoms out with that little interlude (with the treated vocals), and then builds again, reaches its crescendo, and then gently fades out with Stevie's voice sounding almost as if she's singing a lullaby ("la la-la la....").

I love the way she starts "Destiny Rules" with that really low, rumbly vocal. Haunting.
I also think "Thrown Down" has a terrific vocal, but her re-recorded vocal for the second verse of "Say You Will" is definitely better than the album vocal.
Originally posted by dissention
By saying pro-tooled, I mean "fixed." Over-produced, made to sound a lot better than it actually is, etc. It sounds to me that they did a lot of post-production work to her vocals, and the pro-tool engineers even get credit under each of the lyrics.Underneath the lyrics, they also list the producer(s), the regular engineers, and of course the musicans and backing singers. So I don't think the Pro Tools engineer credit is indicative of anything.
In fact, six of the album's thirteen songs weren't aided by Pro Tools at all... including "Sorcerer," in which Stevie hits some rather high notes for her voice.

It would be interesting to see in exactly which capacity they were used for 'TISL.'
Stevie made mention that they didn't use Pro-Tools at all for 'Say You Will,' and in my opinion, every one of her vocals there matches, and sometimes surpasses, her vocals on 'TISL.'
Even on Lindsey's songs, like "Miranda," "Say Goodbye," and "Peacekeeper."

So if she can sound that incredible without the aid of Pro Tools, it makes me wonder if Pro Tools were in fact used for her vocals on 'TISL' at all, or if they were used in some other capacity... which is highly possible.

[rianbay1]

I agree with you Johnny. I was blown away with the vocals on TISL, especially "Sorcerer" and "It's Only Love." Those high notes are all Stevie, I'd bet on it. In fact, I remember reading an interview in which she talked about how she hit the high notes...seems like something Sheryl suggested to her on how to sing them...wish i could find the interview. Can't remember the specifics off hand.

BACK to new years eve..Don't bands who perform on there often get to do more than one song? I haven't watched it for a LONG time, but it seems like I remember bands doing two or even three songs. I could be wrong though. I was a kid last time I saw it.

[SmthngOfADreamr]

I love the soft and gentle vocal on It's Only Love! When I first heard it, I coulnd't believe she could still sing like that. And I think the Stevie vocals on Sorcerer and Candlebright are great too. What makes those songs trying to the ears sometimes is the way that Sheryl Crow is belting out her high pitched whining. The funny thing is I love Sheryl's voice normally, but IMO she needed to tone it down a few notches in those particular songs, especially when she's only singing backup.

I totally agree with the TFFT and Everyday comments though. The vocals on those are pretty bad, even though I really like the song TFFT.

[stefan]

Concerning her demos... The ones I heard are completely boring. Just her voice, a few piano chords, no suprises, no alterations one song sounding like the other... A song like Illume would be unlistenable to me in a raw form. Smile at you in demo form is ennervating. It's just like LB said- it`s very raw material she delivers. The production then makes the song projects alive. Imo songwriting is not her strongest part and the difference in quality between her solo approaches and the FM (LB) produced songs is striking. So all in all her songs are not really her songs because of the complete change and development they go through until there is the finished product. But in fact that doesn't matter to me- it's the result that counts and that I often like.
Illume is one of my faves on the entire album- I think LB's instrumentation and the sound experience on that terrific. O.K Say you will is a harmless nice boring little pop song but that's the exception on her very good contributions to the album (do I still have to say that Silver girl is not part of this considerations :laugh: )
I think her voice sounds good on the album- I saw them perform live and Stevie was in a great shape and I loved her performance.
Concerning this thread's topic: It would be a shame if they performed any Rumours song there. They ought to do some new songs or stay at home (O.K. it`s prerecorded anyway)

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Originally posted by stefan
. So all in all her songs are not really her songs because of the complete change and development they go through until there is the finished product.

To me a song is a meldoy and lyrics. If you really have listened to the demos then you know that those aspects really do not change. What changes is the icing and glitz on top known as production. This icing is different when you compare her FM songs to solo songs because they are different producers. I agree that Lindsey is her best producer too, but that does not diminish the basic qualities of her songs on her solo recordings. To say that she loses ownership of her songs due to production is rediculous.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
That statement seems to contradict what you said in your prior post about her voice now sounding flat, droning, etc., but I guess I can see how you can both love it and hate it at the same time.
I love the way she starts "Destiny Rules" with that really low, rumbly vocal. Haunting.
I also think "Thrown Down" has a terrific vocal, but her re-recorded vocal for the second verse of "Say You Will" is definitely better than the album vocal.
Underneath the lyrics, they also list the producer(s), the regular engineers, and of course the musicans and backing singers. So I don't think the Pro Tools engineer credit is indicative of anything.
In fact, six of the album's thirteen songs weren't aided by Pro Tools at all... including "Sorcerer," in which Stevie hits some rather high notes for her voice.

So if she can sound that incredible without the aid of Pro Tools, it makes me wonder if Pro Tools were in fact used for her vocals on 'TISL' at all, or if they were used in some other capacity... which is highly possible.

It doesn't contradict anything. I could say that Celine Dion has a very beautiful voice, but at the same time, I could say that I don't like some of the ways she uses her voice.

I love the beginning of Destiny Rules, but the rest of the song has a lazy vocal.

I'll never be a fan of the album version of Thrown Down, mostly due to her atrocious vocal. If, like you said, they didn't use pro-tools, it's VERY evident on that sucker.

RTTG has a great vocal, but there are points in that song where her voice gives out, ESPECIALLY during the period leading up to the second chorus. It cracks big time.

Sorry, but I don't think Stevie hit those notes on Sorcerer all by herself; there was some major help in the studio. :nod: She didn't even dare to try to hit those notes in concert; people would've cringed at the sound that came from her mouth. And I think that's what must be kept in mind: she may sound good on an album, but how will she sound live in comparison? I still believe that the reason RTTG was dropped is because it's too challenging for her to do onstage. While I still love her voice with all of its flaws and eccentricities, she very limited onstage these days and I don't see how it could necessarily be much better in the studio. We all heard some of the making-of clips on the official site before the album was released and she wasn't very good in some of them...but you'll never admit that. :laugh:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Dissention...what about the making of clips of songs like Thrown Down and Steal Your Heart Away? Are you s aying those weren't good either...I think you should revisit those clips possibly...

[dissention]

Originally posted by ShangriLaTroubl
Dissention...what about the making of clips of songs like Thrown Down and Steal Your Heart Away? Are you s aying those weren't good either...I think you should revisit those clips possibly...

I think you should revisit my post; I said some of them.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
It doesn't contradict anything. I could say that Celine Dion has a very beautiful voice, but at the same time, I could say that I don't like some of the ways she uses her voice.

I love the beginning of Destiny Rules, but the rest of the song has a lazy vocal.

I'll never be a fan of the album version of Thrown Down, mostly due to her atrocious vocal. If, like you said, they didn't use pro-tools, it's VERY evident on that sucker.

RTTG has a great vocal, but there are points in that song where her voice gives out, ESPECIALLY during the period leading up to the second chorus. It cracks big time.

Sorry, but I don't think Stevie hit those notes on Sorcerer all by herself; there was some major help in the studio. :nod: She didn't even dare to try to hit those notes in concert; people would've cringed at the sound that came from her mouth. And I think that's what must be kept in mind: she may sound good on an album, but how will she sound live in comparison? I still believe that the reason RTTG was dropped is because it's too challenging for her to do onstage. While I still love her voice with all of its flaws and eccentricities, she very limited onstage these days and I don't see how it could necessarily be much better in the studio. We all heard some of the making-of clips on the official site before the album was released and she wasn't very good in some of them...but you'll never admit that. :laugh: If I found myself cringing while listening to something, I'd absolutely admit that, but it's simply not the case.
I watched every one of those making-of clips, and I was sitting here nodding my head, with a smile on my face, and thinking, "Hot damn, she sounds great!"

Regarding the "voice crack" you hear on the second verse of "Running Through The Garden"... do you really think that, if it was not intentional, or at least welcomed, Stevie wouldn't have insisted on recording it again??
If you're recording an album and your voice cracked while singing one of the songs, wouldn't you insist on recording it again, given the potential for millions of people to hear it?

Now regarding "Sorcerer"... if Pro Tools weren't used on "Sorcerer" (and that is one of the songs for which a Pro Tools engineer is not listed), then what kind of "major" studio aid would have helped Stevie hit those notes? And what would be the point of faking high-notes, when she could have just sung them in her normal range and no one would have ever questioned it?

Of course she shied away from them on stage... they're not in her comfortable range. And these days she's not about to risk singing notes on stage that she has to work to hit, for fear that some nights she won't acheive them, and she'll be back to the days of receiving bad reviews for her voice.
But that's not saying she CAN'T hit them, or didn't hit them in a studio environment.

I also still have a hard time figuring out how anyone could find the vocal on "Thrown Down" to be "atrocious."
Compared to what?
If we're comparing the album versions and the "Wall of Sound" versions, her voice on the latter is more nasally, and she's singing deeper than she is on the former. Seems to me that most people... if choosing a preference... would pick the album version as the "better" vocal.

There are times when Stevie's voice will be nasally, times when it will be deep and rumbly, times when it will be raspy or gravelly, times when it will quaver, etc.... because all of those things are essential shadings to the overall sound of her voice.

I wonder if fans of artists such as Marianne Faithful and Bob Dylan have such dissective discussions about their voices, or if they just appreciate them for the things that make those voices unique.

I know I personally get a whole hell of a lot more enjoyment out of music by not being cynical or sceptical.
Though I am a realist, and I know full well that Stevie doesn't have a textbook perfect voice, or a voice that will appeal to everyone.

But for me, it's perfect in all of its imperfections... "and nothing else matters." :nod:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by stefan
Concerning her demos... The ones I heard are completely boring. Just her voice, a few piano chords, no suprises, no alterations one song sounding like the other... A song like Illume would be unlistenable to me in a raw form. Smile at you in demo form is ennervating. It's just like LB said- it`s very raw material she delivers. The production then makes the song projects alive. Imo songwriting is not her strongest part and the difference in quality between her solo approaches and the FM (LB) produced songs is striking. So all in all her songs are not really her songs because of the complete change and development they go through until there is the finished product.Stefan, I'm sorry, but I think you're giving Lindsey and other producers WAY too much credit for Stevie's songs.

The meat and potatoes of the songs... the lyrics and melody... are all hers.
Everything else is gravy.

Producers take her "little skeleton songs" (as she has referred to them), and they flesh them out. But they certainly don't create them, like they're playing Dr. Frankenstein or something.

I readily admit that I'm not ga-ga for every one of her demos... she can sometimes ramble or meander as she's writing... but I see a great deal of potential in most of them.
And you have to figure, in many cases we're listening to Stevie actually writing the song, in "real time"... so of course, things will eventually get re-worked or discarded as the song takes shape.

Lindsey, Jimmy Iovine, and others, deserve credit for polishing her rough gems into something even better... but they most definitely do not deserve all the credit for the appeal of her songs.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
If I found myself cringing while listening to something, I'd absolutely admit that, but it's simply not the case.

I was joking, which I thought the icon would indicate; obviously not.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Regarding the "voice crack" you hear on the second verse of "Running Through The Garden"... do you really think that, if it was not intentional, or at least welcomed, Stevie wouldn't have insisted on recording it again??
If you're recording an album and your voice cracked while singing one of the songs, wouldn't you insist on recording it again, given the potential for millions of people to hear it?.

The constant argument that everything is intentional when it comes to a criticism of a flaw in something Stevie does is getting rather old. If intentional, as you say, what purpose does it serve? If I was recording osmething and my voice cracked, it would depend on whether I wanted to fix it or if I thought it would serve the song. But I don't see where her cracking vocals on RTTG serve the song. Please explain. ;)

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Now regarding "Sorcerer"... if Pro Tools weren't used on "Sorcerer" (and that is one of the songs for which a Pro Tools engineer is not listed), then what kind of "major" studio aid would have helped Stevie hit those notes? And what would be the point of faking high-notes, when she could have just sung them in her normal range and no one would have ever questioned it?

I have no idea what helped her in reaching those notes, I'm not a technical aficianado when it comes to music; I have no clue. As for the other question, asked Sheryl Crow and Stevie Nicks, I don't know. But I think she had some help.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Of course she shied away from them on stage... they're not in her comfortable range. And these days she's not about to risk singing notes on stage that she has to work to hit, for fear that some nights she won't acheive them, and she'll be back to the days of receiving bad reviews for her voice.
But that's not saying she CAN'T hit them, or didn't hit them in a studio environment.

She shied away from doing it because she couldn't do it onstage and if she did, it certainly would not have sounded like it did on the album. And she still gets many negative remarks on her voice and lack of effort to do anything special with it. Like I said, I believe she hit them in the studio with a bit of help.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I also still have a hard time figuring out how anyone could find the vocal on "Thrown Down" to be "atrocious."
Compared to what?
If we're comparing the album versions and the "Wall of Sound" versions, her voice on the latter is more nasally, and she's singing deeper than she is on the former. Seems to me that most people... if choosing a preference... would pick the album version as the "better" vocal.

I told you why I found it atrocious: it's flat, monotonal, and grating. I still have a hard time figuring out how someone loves some of the RAL vocals and the vocals on WISYA. Compared to what? Maybe personal taste??? That's wonderful if everyone else likes the album version the most, but that's not the point, I don't and we were talking about personal taste. I like the vocals on the WOS version more because they're more interesting, she doesn't sound as bad, and, to these ears, they sound more passionate and not as emotionally absent.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I wonder if fans of artists such as Marianne Faithful and Bob Dylan have such dissective discussions about their voices, or if they just appreciate them for the things that make those voices unique.

I've had them. I can appreciate their voices, but I hear a vocal that is just so absolutely awful compared to good vocals from them that I've heard, I say so. If someone appreciates Babs' voice and she records a song whee she sings flatly throughout, don't you think they'll say something?

[stefan]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And you have to figure, in many cases we're listening to Stevie actually writing the song, in "real time"... so of course, things will eventually get re-worked or discarded as the song takes shape.

That's a good point Johnny. And those demos probably were never supposed for public access.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
I was joking, which I thought the icon would indicate; obviously not.I'm sorry, I assumed the laughing icon was meant to back up your remark that I (and other fans) would never admit that the vocals were bad.
I didn't realize the icon was used to lighten the entire statement.


Originally posted by dissention
The constant argument that everything is intentional when it comes to a criticism of a flaw in something Stevie does is getting rather old. If intentional, as you say, what purpose does it serve? If I was recording osmething and my voice cracked, it would depend on whether I wanted to fix it or if I thought it would serve the song. But I don't see where her cracking vocals on RTTG serve the song. Please explain. ;)I guess we're even then, because I'm tired of all the "flat," "droning," "monotone," "grating," criticisms, that are lobbed over and over... and then over again.
If my defense of Stevie's vocals has gotten old, it's every bit as old and tiring as the unending carping that goes on.
If you, or anyone else, is going to express their opinion, then I'm going to express mine.

As you said yourself, you wouldn't change your own "flawed" vocal, if you though it "served the song"... so doesn't that amount to it being "intentionally" left that way? What's the difference between what I said, and what you said? Other than wording?
They have the ability to record and re-record these vocals multiple times (God knows they don't work with a time-limit!), so if something is released to the world as it is, I'm left to believe it was "intentionally" used. They liked it, they wanted to keep it, and they did.
Period.

And this is Stevie's voice, pure and simple. We're not changing it, so why criticize it?
Yes, it's absolutely a matter of taste... but if someone doesn't like her voice more often than not, I don't understand why they bother continuing to listen.
This isn't directed at you specifically, but to anyone who seems to hate Stevie's voice more often than they actually like it. Both then and now.

If I don't like someone's voice, I just don't listen to their songs. I don't sit there and say, "they should do this or that."

But hey, I'm having these debates with someone whose screenname is "dissention"... so what did I expect? ;) :D

[CarneVaca]

Dissention, I pretty much agree with your assessment. Besides, using Pro Tools to alter one's voice is pretty much an admission that you can't hit certain notes. Make no mistake about it: With Pro Tools an engineer can change pitch and alter notes. If you belt out an A instead of G, the softare will fix it. Is that really singing, then?

I like Stevie. I give her a lot of credit for cleaning up her act. I just can't listen to most of her new stuff, Goodbye Baby being a huge exception. And, man, what a beautiful song! Running Through the Garden has decent vocals, but the production is too 80s for me, so that could be Lindsey's fault.

Johnny Stew, Stevie could moo on tape and you'd still defend it to the death. Admit it. Nothing wrong with your fandom, my friend. In fact, I kind of admire how you stick up for her. The last thing I would want to do is discourage anyone from listening to something they like. So even when I knock Stevie's voice or songwriting, I am by no means trying to get people to not listen to her.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Dissention, I pretty much agree with your assessment. Besides, using Pro Tools to alter one's voice is pretty much an admission that you can't hit certain notes. Make no mistake about it: With Pro Tools an engineer can change pitch and alter notes. If you belt out an A instead of G, the softare will fix it. Is that really singing, then?

I like Stevie. I give her a lot of credit for cleaning up her act. I just can't listen to most of her new stuff, Goodbye Baby being a huge exception. And, man, what a beautiful song! Running Through the Garden has decent vocals, but the production is too 80s for me, so that could be Lindsey's fault.

Johnny Stew, Stevie could moo on tape and you'd still defend it to the death. Admit it. Nothing wrong with your fandom, my friend. In fact, I kind of admire how you stick up for her. The last thing I would want to do is discourage anyone from listening to something they like. So even when I knock Stevie's voice or songwriting, I am by no means trying to get people to not listen to her. I forget which producer said it recently, but the fella said he hasn't yet worked with a singer who wasn't aided by Pro Tools. Maybe I can have my career in music after all! :D

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stevie wouldn't, or hasn't, or didn't... I just wished to bring up another possibility... and that possibility is, that Pro Tools were used in some other capacity.
After all, fixing vocals is not their sole use.

They weren't necessarily used to "extensively" repair Stevie's voice, simply because the Pro Tools engineer receives a credit... as was stated by dissention.

I also wanted to make clear the fact that Pro Tools were apparently not used (given the lack of a Pro Tools engineer credit) on "Sorcerer," where Stevie is singing notes we don't usually hear from her.

Since dissention insisted that she couldn't have hit those notes without "major help," I wanted to present the other side of the argument.

CarneVaca, I realize I'm one of Stevie's most vocal "defenders" here (as if she really needs me or anyone to defend her), just as you're one of Lindsey's biggest defenders.
The one thing that should be understood though, is that I've never said, or hopefully even implied, that I think she's perfect or has done no wrong.

But when sweeping statements are made, or when opinions are offered in a tone that implies they're fact, I am going to offer a rebuttal of sorts. :)

As I've said in the past... probably many times by now... when I get enjoyment out of something, I don't put a lot of conditions upon it, or look at it with a cynical eye.
It's not that I have an unrealistic view of things, but life's just too damn short to be cynical and jaded all the time... especially when it comes to music, which is meant to be entertaining.
If something doesn't entertain me, I move on. I've been a Nicks die-hard for seventeen years now, and I haven't lost interest once... which unfortunately I can't say for most every other artist I've been a fan of over the years.

Now, as far as whether I would defend Stevie mooing on tape.... hmmm, I guess if I thought she was doing something experimental and avant garde, then I might defend it, sure. ;) :D

By the way, I appreciated your comments about not meaning to discourage anyone from listening to something they like. :)

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Now, as far as whether I would defend Stevie mooing on tape.... hmmm, I guess if I thought she was doing something experimental and avant garde, then I might defend it, sure.

You both know that mooing is more Lindsey's kind of thing. :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And this is Stevie's voice, pure and simple. We're not changing it, so why criticize it?
Yes, it's absolutely a matter of taste... but if someone doesn't like her voice more often than not, I don't understand why they bother continuing to listen.
This isn't directed at you specifically, but to anyone who seems to hate Stevie's voice more often than they actually like it. Both then and now.

If I don't like someone's voice, I just don't listen to their songs. I don't sit there and say, "they should do this or that."

But hey, I'm having these debates with someone whose screenname is "dissention"... so what did I expect? ;) :D

You don't seem to get my point, dude. It's not her voice that I'm taking issue with, it's how she decided to use it in certain songs. Thrown Down would be fantastic for me if she sang it differently and not so flatly and droning.

And I've never said I dislike her voice more often than not, that's putting words in my mouth. Actually, I don't believe I ever said I don't like her voice; quite the opposite, I think it's the best voice in music. I said I don't like some of the newer vocals, but that doesn't mean I don't get some kind of enjoyment out of the songs (with the exception of Thrown Down). Just because I love Stevie to death, it doesn't mean that I can't have criticisms of her and her work. After all, this is a message board where we discuss things about the band.

And, Johnny, were those icons at the end of your post supposed to lighten up your post? ;) :laugh:

[MACFAN]

The impression I have gotten from this thread is that Stevie has some very peculiar fans. They love her, yet she gets ripped to shreds for everything from her clothing to her singing? Song parodies about her clothing (some of them were pretty vicious to say the least), stating her singing is flat, droning etc..etc. Defending Stevie to non-fans is bad enough but to read some of these posts by fans is mortifying.

Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does, with the exception of wearing that god awful fur on the today show. And at first I was a little dismayed with the little button down jacket but it's not that bad and obviously she likes it. Call me crazy but Im just so happy with the fact that she did not kill herself years ago and that she is still here singing the **** out of songs in concert. Has her voice changed? Sure, so what!. People change with age it happens to everyone and we all know Stevie has always extensively toured over the years. Obviously I am a long time fan since around 1977/78 so maybe I am a little biased but I just can't stand to hear people knocking Stevie...it irritates me. Obviously we all have opinions and tastes but jeez Louise I thought we were fans.

Barbra Streisand although a technically perfect singer leave me quite cold. I find her singing nasal and whiny and that's why I am not a fan. And yes I do like other female singers besides Stevie, but to me Stevie's the real deal. The way she uses her voice is the way she uses her voice.

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Originally posted by MACFAN
The impression I have gotten from this thread is that Stevie has some very peculiar fans. They love her, yet she gets ripped to shreds for everything from her clothing to her singing? Song parodies about her clothing (some of them were pretty vicious to say the least), stating her singing is flat, droning etc..etc. Defending Stevie to non-fans is bad enough but to read some of these posts by fans is mortifying.

Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does, with the exception of wearing that god awful fur on the today show. And at first I was a little dismayed with the little button down jacket but it's not that bad and obviously she likes it. Call me crazy but Im just so happy with the fact that she did not kill herself years ago and that she is still here singing the **** out of songs in concert. Has her voice changed? Sure, so what!. People change with age it happens to everyone and we all know Stevie has always extensively toured over the years. Obviously I am a long time fan since around 1977/78 so maybe I am a little biased but I just can't stand to hear people knocking Stevie...it irritates me. Obviously we all have opinions and tastes but jeez Louise I thought we were fans.

Barbra Streisand although a technically perfect singer leave me quite cold. I find her singing nasal and whiny and that's why I am not a fan. And yes I do like other female singers besides Stevie, but to me Stevie's the real deal. The way she uses her voice is the way she uses her voice.

I think it's natural to be critical of the ones you love. You want them to be at their best/look their best/act their best/sing their best always. And what's the harm in sharing your opinion and letting others know when you think something's wrong??? Otherwise isn't it just blind idolotrious (sp?) worship?

[MACFAN]

There is a big difference between being critical and knocking/mocking someone. Leave the criticism to the professional critics, God knows Stevie has plenty of critics. I don't see myself as being a blind idol worshipper (there is no such word as idolotrious so I would'nt really concern myself with getting the spelling correct) just a fan. And over the years I have noticed that Stevie has some brutal critics in her own fan base.

[strandinthewind]

Does anyone here believe that any singer does NOT use pro-tools to augment/perfect their voice in this day and age - if so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale that you might be interested in :laugh: Having said that, Stevie said no pro tools were used during the recording of SYW. But, certainly LB used some vocal altering device on both of their voices.

So, I say the real test is the live performance. That, might I add, is where Stevie shines, esp. on this tour and esp. in "Beautiful Child" (sheebus). I have been to five concerts and she hit just about every note in every one of them.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Does anyone here believe that any singer does NOT use pro-tools to augment/perfect their voice in this day and age

I could give you lots of examples.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by MACFAN
They love her, yet she gets ripped to shreds for everything from her clothing to her singing? Song parodies about her clothing (some of them were pretty vicious to say the least), stating her singing is flat, droning etc..etc. Defending Stevie to non-fans is bad enough but to read some of these posts by fans is mortifying.

Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does, with the exception of wearing that god awful fur on the today show. And at first I was a little dismayed with the little button down jacket ...

No comment necessary here.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I could give you lots of examples.

Fire Away :laugh:

I submit they may not actually use that program, but they use some form of voice refining program/device, even if it is reverb. Even the devine Sara Mclaughlin (sp.?) admitted on the Rosie show to using Pro Tools.

Also, I have no problem with anyone using any type of studio device like this. My only issue is when they cannot reporduce it live, which I submit Stevie has demonstrated she can. :cool:

[dissention]

Originally posted by MACFAN
Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does

That one line speaks volumes. ;)

It's fine that you disagree with some of the discussions, that's your right, but this is a message board after all. It's here to discuss the band and its members in every musical aspect.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
My only issue is when they cannot reporduce it live, which I submit Stevie has demonstrated she can. :cool:

Like I said, if she tried to do Sorcerer a la high notes, or even Everybody Finds Out, she'd fall on her face. I think she's afraid to do those songs for fear of whether or not she could do them well. She doesn't have the vocal stamina that she once had and that's why I believe RTTG was dropped immediately; I'm sure it took a lot out of her.

[Somajoseph]

MACFAN

I really agree with your post. There are alot of vicious "fans" on these boards who seem to enjoy knocking what they dont like into the ground, along with everyone who dosent agree with them. I enjoy reading Johnny's posts, and Gaius, because they semm to celebrate the music and what we love about it, while respectfully not putting others down. A few of you out there are really a little too much. Lighten up, and remember this is a fan forum. Let's celebrate the music that has brought us joy for many years.


Joseph

[MACFAN]

yawn

[MACFAN]

Dissention elaborate on the volumes you have deduced from that one line. Hope this is free of charge? I spent a whole load of money on Christmas gifts!

[diamondsnake]

I know that I am going to get flamed for this, but I am going to go ahead and say it-

Everybody here really needs to grow up. I don't understand how everyone can sit down and write pages about if Stevie used certain tools or not. We will never know! No one will ever agree on any of this and it is pointless to keep on writing the same comments over and over again.

And Johnny, I completely agree that we should just enjoy the music. Who cares how Stevie acheives a certain vocal on each song? Her voice is very enjoyable to me and the best voice in rock. By that, I mean the voice I most love in rock. Even though most artists have more range or whatever, I could care less. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I can't get enough of her raspy whisky voice. I love it...

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Originally posted by MACFAN
there is no such word as idolotrious so I would'nt really concern myself with getting the spelling correct

Despite your lack of encouragement, I did check the spelling, and it's "idolatrous." maybe you should check the dictionary too :shrug:

But seriously, I do agree with you that there is a big difference between being critical of someone and mocking them. Thankfully though, I don't think anyone who "mocks" Stevie here is doing so with much malice... except for Carne. (just kidding!) :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by MACFAN
Dissention elaborate on the volumes you have deduced from that one line. Hope this is free of charge? I spent a whole load of money on Christmas gifts!

Oh, honey, it's gonna cost ya; I've gotta pay my bills somehow. :laugh:

I just meant that perhaps you might not exactly be the most objective person since you "love everything Stevie does." That's all.

[dissention]

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr
Thankfully though, I don't think anyone who "mocks" Stevie here is doing so with much malice... except for Carne. (just kidding!) :laugh:

Exactly!

:wavey:

[dissention]

Originally posted by MACFAN
Song parodies about her clothing (some of them were pretty vicious to say the least)

You actually took those seriously??? :confused: :eek:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr
Despite your lack of encouragement, I did check the spelling, and it's "idolatrous."

I knew what you meant. ;)

[CarneVaca]

Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya...

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
You don't seem to get my point, dude. It's not her voice that I'm taking issue with, it's how she decided to use it in certain songs. Thrown Down would be fantastic for me if she sang it differently and not so flatly and droning.To me, the way she sings any song is part and parcel to the overall sound of her voice. And the songs you've pointed out are, to me, just more examples of the various shadings and nuances... those perfect imperfections... that I mentioned before.
So I honestly have a hard time figuring out what's so "atrocious" about the vocals on the songs you mentioned, and I guess that's where you and I kept getting tripped up. And probably always will. :)Originally posted by dissention
And I've never said I dislike her voice more often than not, that's putting words in my mouth. Actually, I don't believe I ever said I don't like her voice; quite the opposite, I think it's the best voice in music. I said I don't like some of the newer vocals, but that doesn't mean I don't get some kind of enjoyment out of the songs (with the exception of Thrown Down).I apologize if I put words in your mouth regarding your comments about Stevie's vocals... it seems I hear more complaints than not, so I misconstrued your opinion. Either way, it wasn't my intention to put words in someone's mouth, and for that, I apologize.

But I'm very glad to hear that you think she has the best voice in music... on that, we can definitely agree. :DOriginally posted by dissention
And, Johnny, were those icons at the end of your post supposed to lighten up your post? ;) :laugh: They were just meant to give a wink and a nod to my last comment, regarding your screenname, not to necessarily lighten up the entire post.

Not sure what "tone"... if any... comes across in my posts, but nothing I've said, or say, is ever meant to come across in any way other than a civil and friendly debate.
Even when CarneVaca and I are "arguing."

Hopefully that's apparent. :)

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Like I said, if she tried to do Sorcerer a la high notes, or even Everybody Finds Out, she'd fall on her face. I think she's afraid to do those songs for fear of whether or not she could do them well. She doesn't have the vocal stamina that she once had and that's why I believe RTTG was dropped immediately; I'm sure it took a lot out of her.

I submit the lack of reproduction of the Sorcerer falsettos was an isolated instance when her voice was not in the best shape due to illness on that tour - note: she was sick for many shows before she had to cancel the shows she did. Of course, now that she has done it that way, history demonstrates she will not significantly change it.

Also, on this current tour, which requires far more singing than her TISL tour and currently is about three times longer than her TISL tour, the song "Beautiful Child" is sung to perfection and has notes seemingly as high as those falsettos in Sorcerer. So, she can do it IMO. :cool:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :wavey: :wavey:

[snwriter]

Johnny Stew--

You hit it right on the head about Stevie's demos. Though some meander and ramble, many of the "skeleton" songs show great potential. Lindsey DOES get too much credit about "creating" Stevie's songs.

[dissention]

Originally posted by snwriter
Lindsey DOES get too much credit about "creating" Stevie's songs.

See, I always thought that he didn't get enough credit. LOL :D

[face of glass]

Once again the oddball of this board is coming to the thread late. Bon voyage people, don’t forget to take something to eat with you. ;)

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Strip it down. That's all. Strip every single one of those songs down to the bare vocal and essential rhythm. Go to Dissention's site and listen to some of the center-channel mixes, particularly Red Rover. Everyone of Lindsey's songs on SYW is more dynamic from a melodic standpoint.

I don’t believe it’s the vocal melody itself that matters, it’s what chords are those notes against that usually determines how strongly the song is written. It’s not like LB’s musical sophistication has grown that much during his career; he’s confessed himself that he only knows three or four different keys.

So, we’re getting into this age-old “complexity vs. simplicity” battle, aren’t we? Hey, why don’t we actually notate the entire Say You Will album. Let’s look at the notation now; yes, LB uses more notes from the stave than SN does. Now let’s compare the SYW notation to any piece of classical music. Now which is more simplistic and derivative? Everything on SYW would be laughable if taken from this viewpoint. The notation, however, fails to convey the tone colours and the rhythmic subtleties. That’s where the fascination of rock, pop and jazz is.

So how does this relate to the Stevie’s writing vs. Lindsey’s writing battle? You could easily claim that LB is a better writer because he has a better grasp of complexity than Stevie does. But so what; LB himself would be beaten by Burt Bacharach, Brian Wilson, Anderson/Ulvaeus, Rodgers/Hammerstein, Porter, the Gershwins et cetera if we were to start comparing the complexity in the writing of these gentlemen. These men, in turn, would be beaten by classical composers. Comparing LB’s and SN’s writing is, as someone said before me, like comparing apples with oranges. Or like comparing classical music with blues. I know I coined the term “Nicksian drone” before (referring to the usual statement that Stevie has been writing just one long song throughout her career), but I might as well change it to “Nicksian blues” now. The Nicksian drone/blues, like the most basic blues, is always superficially the same, always uses the same chord progressions and isn’t aiming at changing the world of music. It’s an approach of personal expression. All blues would sound the same if the performer wasn’t capable of injecting his/her own personality into the proceedings. The differences between every blues performance are not immediately notable; you need to have some listening background before that. When you have that background you will start to notice subtle differences and then the songs will establish an identity of their own in your mind.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Strand makes a good point about Smile at You. But outside of that one, Stevie rarely stretches her vocals in a melodically interesting way. We can all discuss opinions of what we like and don't like, but you want to insist that from a musical standpoint her songs are better, you either don't know better or you're kidding yourself.

I guess I wouldn’t want to insist on that; after all I do think that the core of Stevie’s songwriting, the basic chords have lost their freshness a long time ago. But it would be pretty much useless because Stevie’s main appeal has never been songwriting in the “classic” sense. Her music needs to be taken as a whole; the lyrics, the vocal delivery, the basic songwriting and the arrangement. So it is with most blues. It isn’t easy to explain the appeal of Stevie’s current writing (mind you, I don’t find the demos that appealing myself, but I’m just trying to understand the fans who do so), but I guess I once read something that could do the trick. It was written by a Norwegian called Tarjei Vatne:

I sometimes think of music [that’s simple sounding, but has subtle, elaborate structure and dynamics] as being in essence a kind of hologram composed with the aid of a dozen mirrors or so. The mirrors stand round it and reflect the light that makes up the hologram. Change the position, however slightly, of just one of them, and the hologram, the "central essence" of the music is in fact completely changed. In music like this, the balance between chords, phrase lenghts, melodic figures, rythmic accents, dynamic variations, lyrics(for non-instrumental music), voicings etc. is very delicate. And although the music seems like entering our feelings in an instant, there are so many things going on at once! In this respect, music can never be "simple".

That’s basically what Stevie’s songs do; they sound simple but there’s a lot being expressed in the performance. Or at least that’s how I believe it is for most hardcore fans.

As for her voice; a similar argument could be brought up. This is originally an excerpt from Robert Tally’s review of the Rolling Stones’ Let It Bleed album, but I think it works just as well here:

…by Let It Bleed, they were taking very simple musical ideas and playing them in a way no beginner possibly could. Take the slide guitar on 'No Expectations' - there's a world of complexity within each note. All of the players on that track display an utmost amount of patience. A beginner would grow impatient waiting for the next chord to come along and start hurrying through it, sacrificing any sense of subtlety. A musician doesn't need to be a technical virtuoso to master this aspect of playing. This is why I don't buy into the argument that progressive musicians are necessarily better. As far as 'great music' being 'sophisticated and complex,' this may be true, but there are a lot of ways to be complex. In the case of Let It Bleed, the notes, chords and rhythms are fairly simple, but the emotions put across through the music are pretty complex. There's more than meets the ear, so to speak.

That, I believe, can be said about Stevie’s voice. She doesn’t just bluntly express a single emotion; she’s expressing something else too. It is a voice that has lost some of its range, yes. It is a voice that’s not as versatile as it used to be. She may not be capable of expressing the broadest scale of emotion these days; she’s using what she has to convey the subtleties and the “shades of grey” that these emotions have. She’s never been an operatic virtuoso, she’s a virtuoso in using her limited vocals fully.

As you said in the LB forum, CarneVaca, you yourself take Lindsey’s music as a whole, with all those bells and whistles. I’m going to insist that same should be done with Stevie’s music. It’s useless to claim that her songwriting is bad when it’s always been the same (as can be said for blues music too). You need to take her music as a whole, otherwise you’re missing something crucial.
Originally posted by strandinthewind
Carne - I agree Stevie's voice is limited by its own nature (perhaps self-imposed) in Illume. In fact and although I like the song, I will never get why she chose to sing it like that, when IMO she could have and should have branched out a little more. I think it would have made the IMO beautiful imagery of the song more compelling.

It’s kind of weird for me but with Say You Will I found that the songs where Stevie is at her most “limited” vocally are the ones that move me the most. Especially “Illume”. Yes, it is a monotone, drone-like vocal. However, it comes off as very insistent. She doesn’t vary her delivery. If the song is, like Johnny Stew said, “a chant”, a mourning over what has happened, then the “branching out” would be inappropriate. For me, when that insistent vocal changes into LB’s cartoonish parody of the message and then into this intense delivery of Stevie, it’s a moment when I start to cry in lumps. I can’t explain it, but the song certainly wouldn’t have the impression it has now if Stevie chose a different approach.
Originally posted by strandinthewind
Nothing LB does on SYW approaches that vocally. Rather, LB's vocals are mostly heavily produced in that he likes to distort the human voice with a filter, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with that, in fact he is very clever and effective at doing it, esp. considering singing, although he certainly can sing, is not his strongest suit (no slam - even he admits Stevie's got a great voice).
I agree here. I’ve never thought of Lindsey as the greatest in any field, be it producing, arranging, singing, playing or songwriting. When he uses his limited skills in all these fields, then we’re talking! I do admit that he doesn’t have the greatest voice in the classic sense but I do believe that he has always put his soul into singing. However, he doesn’t always make it so obvious. That’s why he’s doing the voice manipulations. He knows his voice doesn’t have the same subtleties that Stevie’s has. Les stated on the LB board that Lindsey likes to run two or more different emotions at the same time within a song. You can’t convey that with a single voice, not even Stevie can. Those filters, etc. help him with that goal. In “Say Goodbye” the sadness that he expresses is contrasted with those left-field harmonies that distort the superficial emotion; it would be natural to put some kind grandiose choir in there to endorse the drama. Instead he uses these cartoonish voices that almost end up mocking the sadness.

And of course using those filters is a must when he wants to add some subtlety inside the vocal performance. Stevie has never needed that stuff.

However, Stevie herself hasn’t come up with anything as directly arresting as the vocal performances on the acoustic versions of “Big Love” and “Go Insane”. Both sound like they’re coming from the dark, murky depths of mind, directly from the human psyche without going through any filters, aural or psychological. Stevie hasn’t wanted to go into that area for a long time; a choice that I do grumble over a bit, even though it’s an understandable one.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
…come on... how many fans and critics have noted the distinct similarities between many of Lindsey's 'SYW' tunes and those he's recorded before?

And come on, how many fans have noticed the similarity between nearly every Stevie song throughout the years? ;) It would be extremely noticeable if Lindsey wasn’t producing. The subtlety that her writing has is noticeable only to those who have listened to her for a long, long time. The hardcore fans, that is.

Lindsey may have recycled “Big Love” (for instance) for “Doing What I Can”, “Miranda” and “Destiny Rules”. However, if he uses the same idea he puts it into a different context. The original “Big Love”, the subtle pop composition that it is, was turned into a speedy rocker for “Doing What I Can” while for “Miranda” he used the same idea to create an image of a self-destructive woman while setting the tune to bouncy, uplifting music. Of course he shatters that illusion in the closing section where I can easily picture the woman plunging into total madness. For “Destiny Rules” he plays the chorus riff of “Big Love” in a different harmony (and with a dobro), creating this image of dryness, of a desert, that perfectly suits Stevie’s vocals in the opening.

I think there’s very little new you can do with rock music these days; those that use the ideas of the past in a new context are the ones who will succeed. If Lindsey’s work, with the man himself in late middle age, can be compared with artists as diverse as Steve Reich, Roy Wood, The Smiths and The Associates (as Marcello Carlin did), then he’s still obviously very relevant instead of just rehashing on the past ideas.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Even "Peacekeeper"... which is the song you're directly referring to here... has been "criticized" for a striking similarity to Paul Simon's "Kodachrome."

I’m not a musician, but I find what Sarah G posted on this at Burnish more believable than something a non-musician would say:

I don't think they are related at all, except that they share the same intervals between the first three notes of the chorus. There's no telling how many songs have that same interval. Paul sustains the third note, and Lindsey sustains the fourth.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And just about every sonic trick he used on the production of this album, is something he's used on a previous recording.

Which isn’t surprising. After all, there’s this woman in the band who stubbornly refuses to vary her writing style. ;)

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I like this critique by Marcello Carlin... "If Stevie provides the emotional adventure, Lindsey provides the sonics.

As well-written and moving as his review was, I still find that statement a bit “flawed”. It’s Lindsey, with his diversity, who provides this emotional adventure for me. From the obsessive statements in the verses of “Come” to the huge “slap in the face” that the chorus is, from the hyperactive nuttiness of “Red Rover” to romanticism of “Bleed To Love Her”, from the grief of “Say Goodbye” to the angry flaming of “Murrow”, it’s he who runs the gamut of emotions, even inserting some of these into the same song. The diversity enters Stevie’s songs through his production. With Stevie though, it’s more like watching at the same two or three things. However, it’s from different angles, hence the subtlety. But it’s also more difficult to discover the differences.

If Marcello Carlin wanted to state that you can only express true emotion through a human voice, I have to disagree with him. Lindsey is expressing through “the sonics” as much as he is expressing vocally.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Her stuff holds up extremely well, even when it's damn-near acapella. In fact, some of her songs are even more arresting in this context.
They're not subservient to the music going on around them.

And this is what makes her demos “fan-only”. If you identify with her persona, you will most likely be pleased with every single demo that there is. Whatever “emotional nakedness” we can find from a certain song is always a product of the listeners’ minds. That’s how I believe it is. There’s no way anyone can objectively state whether LB or SN are into their performances or not.

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Interestingly, if La Nicks' songs are musically "at fault," a position I do not take in general, I submit that "fault" belongs mostly to LB. After all, he was the producer. He drastically altered several of her songs from the original demos I have heard. Also, no slam to Stevie, but she pretty much is not capable of this level of production.

I understand your intentions Strand. After all, this past year saw the usual bashing of Stevie’s songs on TITN. You made a good point in saying that the band and especially LB, as the producer, should share the blame. And I agree, Lindsey could have worked on “WTTR…S” and “WISYA” more. Yet I thought that Carne’s (and mine) critique was directed at the core of her songwriting, the chords and the vocal melody she chooses to use. LB doesn’t touch those. It’s as if Stevie’s drawing a sketch, or a black-and-white picture with those demo arrangements and then Lindsey gets to colour them.

My personal belief is that this “drastic alteration” is necessary if these songs are going to be made appealing for the common listener. So if a song is unsuccessful, I do think that Lindsey should take a part of the “blame” along with the group, since Stevie’s sketches are very, very rough. However, I do believe that the main “blame” should still be on the songwriter. If he/she has very substandard material to offer, like on TITN, then you can’t really blame the producer.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
The meat and potatoes of the songs... the lyrics and melody... are all hers.
Everything else is gravy.

I still think that depends on what you take from music. Since you’re a lyrics person, as you’ve stated before, you will think of those as the “meat and potatoes”.
I’m someone who listens to the entire track. And that’s what matters to the common listener too; very rarely do they listen to only certain elements of the song. You need to find something that makes the track ear-catching and that’s what you can’t find from Stevie’s demos these days, unless you’re “trained” (=a big fan).

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And you have to figure, in many cases we're listening to Stevie actually writing the song, in "real time"... so of course, things will eventually get re-worked or discarded as the song takes shape.

I guess that’s true for the legendary 16-minute “Sara” and the “Gypsy” demo. But for those that made it on to albums, I’m mostly listening to the finished track without the crucial arrangements and those, if we’re speaking of the post-70’s demos with the drum machine and some keyboard drone, are not enough for me. And I’m quite sure that only the hardcores are interested in them. Release them publicly and give them the same promotion as TISL received. They will most likely be the biggest flop in Stevie’s career.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Lindsey, Jimmy Iovine, and others, deserve credit for polishing her rough gems into something even better... but they most definitely do not deserve all the credit for the appeal of her songs.

I agree that they shouldn’t get “all the credit”. But I still think that too many fans in this forum have been somewhat belittling Lindsey’s, Jimmy’s, et cetera contributions. I can understand that position because I guess some have made the claim that the producer is totally responsible for the magic. I do think that Stevie should get at least half the credit for everything she’s released. Without those lyrics and without that voice the producer wouldn’t be able to create an arrangement like that. I can’t imagine all those great works without those lyrics, without that voice and without the basic song writing. Everything contributes to the “atmosphere” and that’s the one I always pay attention first in music. Not everything has to be catchy or instantly memorable.

Lindsey still hasn’t been recognized by the public for the great work he’s done for producing Fleetwood Mac. I guess it bothers me that when the man should get all the support possible, some fans are actually underestimating his achievements. I will always praise him for this though, and I won’t stop until Lindsey has been rightfully placed alongside the greatest producers in the history of popular music. But no, he shouldn’t get all the credit, that’s for sure.

This debate will most likely rage on, in different threads also. I came to these boards as a lurker about a year ago and it was already here, in other forms but still visible. I have nothing against this; it’s a different thing to badmouth someone’s persona than something that the person has written. There’s no problem discussing the musical contributions, but when the debate sinks to the level of “Lindsey’s a dominative ego-feeding idiot” and “Stevie’s an airhead living in a fairy-tale world”, then there’s something seriously wrong. It hasn’t happened here and I thank everyone for that.

Overall, I guess we all should learn something from debaters of the opposite side; we should at least learn to understand why they think the way they think. Then there will be less need to call someone’s work “bad”. Just calling something “bad” or “good” isn’t informative at all.

Ah well, “seems like everything goes in cycles”. Let’s do this again next year, shall we? ;)

[dissention]

Gaius,

I have to hand it to you. Even though I don't agree with everything you said, that was an awesome post. :nod:

:wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
…come on... how many fans and critics have noted the distinct similarities between many of Lindsey's 'SYW' tunes and those he's recorded before?Originally posted by face of glass
And come on, how many fans have noticed the similarity between nearly every Stevie song throughout the years? ;)I'm not denying that Stevie's songs have a definite similarity, or that that statement isn't an accurate one, I just wanted to add that if one is going to knock Stevie's tunes for "sounding the same" as things she's done in the past, then we absolutely have to keep in mind that the same can be said, and has been said, about many of Lindsey's songs.

I was just trying to keep the playing field level... you know my thing about double-standards. :)

In a technical way, I think it's safe to say that neither Stevie or Lindsey is lightyears ahead of what they're were doing back in 1973... but I think they are definitely ahead in the overall tone of their songs.
They both convey things now lyrically that they never could have 30 years ago, and they're both more sophisticated in the ways in which they get that across, performance-wise.

As usual, Gaius, yours is one of the best-written, most interesting posts in this entire thread... thank you for sharing your thoughts with us! :)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by face of glass
I don’t believe it’s the vocal melody itself that matters, it’s what chords are those notes against that usually determines how strongly the song is written.

I grant you that point, but it doesn't diminish my assertion that if you strip the songs down -- melody notes against the chords -- Lindsey still comes out ahead. It is the dynamic interplay between melody, chord structure and rhythm that makes a song good or bad musically. As an example of something that sounds simple, but is very dynamic and irrepressibly evocative, take a listen to Save Me a Place. Or better yet, take Go Insane acoustic, in which you have the man and his guitar, and put it up against one of Stevie's vocals-and-piano demos.

So, we’re getting into this age-old “complexity vs. simplicity” battle, aren’t we?

Not really. The point, which I stopped just short of making, is to strip down the songs to the core. There, if you try, you will tap the inherent complexities in the apparent simplicity. So you could have a three-note melody that sounds positively out of this world as a result of how it was put together. My point with the two-note comment about Stevie's songs was that she will strike the same note repeatedly before making a change to the second note, whereas Lindsey's melodies are more dynamic. Compare Say Goodbye to Say You Will for a good example of what we're talking about in relation to the interplay between melody, chord structure and rhythm.

You could easily claim that LB is a better writer because he has a better grasp of complexity than Stevie does. But so what;

He may or may not, but that's not the point. The point is when the writer sits down at the keyboard or with a guitar, does the writer take up the challenge presented by the interplay mentioned earlier or does the writer simply put new words to the same chords he/she has used before? So it comes down, not to a matter of skill, but artistic complacency.

As you say:

[quote]I do think that the core of Stevie’s songwriting, the basic chords have lost their freshness a long time ago.

And you add:

[quote]Her music needs to be taken as a whole; the lyrics, the vocal delivery, the basic songwriting and the arrangement.

And taking it as a whole, I stand by my original assertion.

And I'm not so sure that comparing Stevie's tired chord structures to the blues is appropriate. Pop music, though in some ways derivative of the blues, is a whole different animal. Anyone can write a melody using the same 12-bar blues in E without being accused of copyright infringement or artistic laziness (necessarily), but if you keep using the same G-Em-C-D chord structure (as an example) in multiple songs, it will most likely become tiresome. Pop has evolved to the point where the chord structure of the song becomes one of the means of expression. So think of pop songs as sculpture that you can shape anyway you want, as opposed to the blues 12-bar form, which is a canvas to which you can throw whatever color of paint you want. But you still have to use the canvas. With pop, you can take the plaster, shape it however you like, and add pastic horns to it if you wish.

Ultimately, we're probably not that far apart, but I wanted to address the nuances.

Oh, and by the way, this seems inconsistent:

I’ve never thought of Lindsey as the greatest in any field, be it producing, arranging, singing, playing or songwriting.

I won’t stop until Lindsey has been rightfully placed alongside the greatest producers...

So you do consider him to be among the greatest when it comes to producing, but not the other roles unless you combine them?

To me, he is one of the greatest in the individual roles, as well as in the sum of all roles. Of course, that doesn't mean everyone has to agree. I was just a little confused by your comments.

[celestenadia]

Just felt like poking the fire a little bit...
I think that "Dreams" might be one of the most
perfectly, simplistic songs ever written.
I was a serious classical pianist
in my youth for about ten years. I
then started to play guitar. But I'm
telling you, 'til this day, I love it when
I can hear a song just once, and then
right away proceed to bang out the chords on the
piano or strum out the chord progressions on
guitar. It's also pretty funny, any song that
I instantly love, is always the most simple...

[CarneVaca]

Dreams is a beautifully simple song with two-chord verses and two-chord choruses. But contrast the way Stevie approaches that song vocally with Say You Will. In Dreams, she floats in and out over the progression, adding little melodic nuances. In Say You Will, she's chained her vocal down to the rigidity of the progression.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Dreams is a beautifully simple song with two-chord verses and two-chord choruses. But contrast the way Stevie approaches that song vocally with Say You Will. In Dreams, she floats in and out over the progression, adding little melodic nuances. In Say You Will, she's chained her vocal down to the rigidity of the progression.

I agree (WE AGREEE :wavey: ) I submit Stevie's current lack of an upper register she consistently is willing to use (I still maintain its there but she finds it easier not to use it) makes it impossible for her to be as melodic as she was in "Dreams." As you said, she positively floats her vocals throughout that song and sort of comes vocally from the top down, never straining to reach a note. Now, her "new voice" is suited to what she is doing, which is singing the melody only. This produces a very different result - almost chant like. then, she stuns with "Smile at You."

Note: I like all of Stevie's voices throughout the years. I am just making observations on the changing of her styles to suit the changes of of voice.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I was just trying to keep the playing field level... you know my thing about double-standards. :)

Oh, alright. That’s often very necessary in these boards, for sure. :)

And thanks for the compliments, Dissention and Johnny. :)

Originally posted by CarneVaca
-- Lindsey still comes out ahead. It is the dynamic interplay between melody, chord structure and rhythm that makes a song good or bad musically.
If it’s pure songwriting, stuff you put down on paper as notation, then I do agree. But then again, no one is capable of conveying that interplay through notation alone. It is only through performance when it is conveyed.
Originally posted by CarneVaca
As an example of something that sounds simple, but is very dynamic and irrepressibly evocative, take a listen to Save Me a Place.
I’m sorry Carne, I know that “Save Me A Place” is one of your very favourites, but I’ve never found it an attractive piece of songwriting. It sounds to me about as simplistic as any Stevie demo. Such as piece can only be salvaged by a performer who can express also the untrivial emotions (think of Stevie, think of the late Johnny Cash, etc). I don’t think Lindsey is always up to that challenge. Instead he made this piece work by paying attention to the production details: the way those guitars (and his cardboard box drumming) were recorded and the warm harmonies. It wouldn’t work as a simplistic demo with just strumming and a basic vocal performance, at least for me.
Or better yet, take Go Insane acoustic, in which you have the man and his guitar, and put it up against one of Stevie's vocals-and-piano demos.
No contest there. But then again we all know that Lindsey easily beats Stevie in arranging. And I do believe that with most of her demos Stevie was just drawing rough sketches; she wasn’t trying to do a finished work of any kind. The acoustic “Go Insane”, on the other hand, is a very thoroughly arranged and calculated (by this I do not mean that it’s “emotionally devoid” or anything like that) piece. Lindsey prepared that arrangement especially for the OOTC tour and I do believe that he never wanted to approach it as a simple “strum-and-sing” piece. It is based on pre-arranged riffage; there was a slight, notable change in the opening phrase between the OOTC tour and the Dance versions but that was about it. There’s never been a rough demo version of “Go Insane” in circulation (which is too bad, since we LB fans could use any alternate version of any song!), so I do think it can’t be used as a proper example here.
There’s been one rough version (or maybe more, I don’t know how many) of “Down On Rodeo” available, though. I have to say that even though I love the song, I still find that the demo is miles away from what we all assume is the final version. There’s still a lot to of work to be done. A similar case could be made for “Soul Drifter”. At MadnessFades.net there’s this video clip of Lindsey playing the song alone in the studio, accompanying himself with a few strums, so it’s not like the version he played as an encore during the OOTC tour. That, too, is still a long way from the final take (even though, I guess, it was filmed in 1993). This is why I’m not capable of following your example and calling Lindsey one of the greatest songwriters. Ok, those two performances of “Down On Rodeo” and “Soul Drifter” are more appealing to me than Stevie’s recent demos, but a lot of the impact that the final takes had is not there.
My point with the two-note comment about Stevie's songs was that she will strike the same note repeatedly before making a change to the second note, whereas Lindsey's melodies are more dynamic.
Ok, so Stevie does that. So does Lennon in “I Am The Walrus”, which is still considered by many to be his finest piece of writing. But then again, I guess that’s once again beside the point.
He may or may not, but that's not the point. The point is when the writer sits down at the keyboard or with a guitar, does the writer take up the challenge presented by the interplay mentioned earlier or does the writer simply put new words to the same chords he/she has used before? So it comes down, not to a matter of skill, but artistic complacency.
Basically I think that there won’t be great songwriters in the classic sense anymore. That’s simply because there’s only a limited amount of purely musical things that will sound appealing to the ear. Most of those things have been used and reused for a long time. So what matters these days is not what you do in the compositional stage (because you’re most likely bound to repeat yourself or break some ear-pleasing rules), but how the overall track sounds and what tone colours you choose to complement your writing. So, purely as a songwriter, Lindsey isn’t in a much better situation than Stevie.

And I'm not so sure that comparing Stevie's tired chord structures to the blues is appropriate. Pop music, though in some ways derivative of the blues, is a whole different animal. Anyone can write a melody using the same 12-bar blues in E without being accused of copyright infringement or artistic laziness (necessarily), but if you keep using the same G-Em-C-D chord structure (as an example) in multiple songs, it will most likely become tiresome.
I admit my comparison may seem far-fetched. However, it felt natural to me because that’s the only way I can find some value in those current demos. Blues hasn’t been about composition for decades, neither have Stevie’s demos been about composition for a long time. It may seem that Stevie is still writing “pop music” (although I’ve never cared that much for genre boundaries). In the end, though, her songwriting rules are similar to those of the blues. Stevie’s demos, like most blues, can superficially sound the same. So it should be assumed that they will always sound the same at first; the impact of the track is due to whether the performer is capable of showing a new side of the same old emotion or not. It’s clear that both Stevie and the blues artists are putting the emphasis on their performances, not on what they write musically. Stevie refers to her recent works as “poems”, so it’s obvious she hasn’t been concentrating on the traditional songwriting for a long time. She’s still searching for new ways of expressing the same “two or three things”, she’s trying to find the nuances, just like a blues performer. It’s evident in her voice, there’s a richness there that LB isn’t capable of capturing vocally (but in some other terms he is). Johnny Stew said it best:
They both convey things now lyrically that they never could have 30 years ago, and they're both more sophisticated in the ways in which they get that across, performance-wise.
I understand Carne, that you prefer Stevie’s older performances and past writings. It’s easy to look at the surface and say that Stevie’s voice is now a lot weaker and that her scribbles are derivative. When you speak of Stevie striking “the same note repeatedly before making a change to the second note”, it reminds me of something that Branford Marsalis said of Billie Holiday’s “April In Paris”. Billie’s voice had lost most of the surprisingly small range it used to have before the recording of that song. Yet Mr. Marsalis praised the performance even though Billie was using about one or two notes throughout. It was obvious to him that she was expressing a lot with so little. That’s what I believe can be said of Stevie’s singing these days. If she had sung with that voice in the golden days of Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Bessie Smith, Edith Piaf, etc., she would be considered a legend alongside those other ladies. For me the best female vocalists of the 20th century weren’t always the most attractive in the traditional sense of singing, and they certainly were limited from an academic standpoint. Yet they made most of what they had with emotionally devastating results, especially those ladies I just mentioned. For me Stevie is in that league too and we shouldn’t be afraid of admitting that.
So I think comparing Lindsey’s and Stevie’s writing styles is not entirely appropriate; after all they both put the emphasis on different things; Stevie on her performance and LB on the way the track will sound.
I wish we all could learn to appreciate their differences. I don’t think Stevie should be criticized for not writing/arranging like Lindsey. And Lindsey shouldn’t be criticized for not singing like Stevie. But I’m being very utopian here.
Originally posted by CarneVaca
So you do consider him to be among the greatest when it comes to producing, but not the other roles unless you combine them?
Well yes, one of the greatest in producing/arranging (since they can be essentially the same); that’s what I was trying to say. One of the curses of a long post at work there.
I do find him a great guitar player and a vocalist as well but there are many others I’d place on the same level. I think LB has been putting the emphasis on his production work for a long time; the guitar showcases in the sense of playing long solos in the studio have never been that constant throughout his career. The overall arranging is still what he does best. Even when he engages in a long solo in the studio it seems like it serves to the outcome of the track itself. The male aggression mocking of “Come” needs that hair-metal solo as its “extension”. ;)
Happy Christmas to everyone. May it be full of every excess you can think of. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by face of glass
So I think comparing Lindsey’s and Stevie’s writing styles is not entirely appropriate; after all they both put the emphasis on different things; Stevie on her performance and LB on the way the track will sound.
I wish we all could learn to appreciate their differences. I don’t think Stevie should be criticized for not writing/arranging like Lindsey. And Lindsey shouldn’t be criticized for not singing like Stevie. But I’m being very utopian here.AMEN :nod:

I said a long time ago that if Lindsey and Stevie had never recorded together, or been in the same band together, no one would ever dream of comparing the two as artists.
They both come from very different places.

But when they're together, they each bring something the other "lacks"... so it's the best of both worlds for all of us lucky enough to hear their music. :)

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
AMEN :nod:

I said a long time ago that if Lindsey and Stevie had never recorded together, or been in the same band together, no one would ever dream of comparing the two as artists.
They both come from very different places.

IS there a parallel universe where they were never together?:eek: Say it isn't so.

- Jake

[strandinthewind]

Gaius (Face of Glass)

I agree about vocal imperfection adding interest to a singer's voice. I mean Whittney (in the old days) and Celine are fantastic singers and rarely if ever miss a note or pitch. But, could they sing "Have a Heart" or "I Can't Make you Love Me" like Bonnie Raitt can. BR's vocals in those are imperfect, which adds to the heartbrake for me. Same for Marlene D. when she sang very flatly in German to the Israeli's (many of whom were concentration camp survivors or their progeny) in the 60's (?) - not a dry eye in the house due to personage and delivery, both of which Stevie has in spades.

Finally, I agree Illume is moving as sung and I totally get, understand, appreciate, and like her moving trance-like message. I just wish she would have written a third stanza because I do not care for the repetition. Same for the song SYW. But and again, I like the songs as recorded. I just want more, everyone's a critic, etc. :cool:

[Tango]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
IS there a parallel universe where they were never together?:eek: Say it isn't so.

- Jake

I think we have to closely examine "the text" to get an answer to this one Jake. ;)

Destiny Rules
Maybe we are together in a parallel universe.


You see that? She doesn't say:
Maybe we are together in the parallel universe.

Perhaps her use of the article "a" suggests more than one parallel universe. You bring up an interesting point and we have entered The OUTTER Limits!

:laugh:

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by Tango
You bring up an interesting point and we have entered The OUTTER Limits!

:laugh:

Just an alternative TimeSpace.:)

- Jake

[face of glass]

Once again Strand and Johnny made good points. Of course I have to come back and correct a mistake I made:

Originally posted by face of glass
Billie Holiday’s “April In Paris”.

It’s actually “Autumn In New York” that Branford Marsalis was talking about and I can’t for the life of me understand how my brain could have made such a mistake. It’s sometimes not too good in the name department. :distress:

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Finally, I agree Illume is moving as sung and I totally get, understand, appreciate, and like her moving trance-like message. I just wish she would have written a third stanza because I do not care for the repetition. Same for the song SYW. But and again, I like the songs as recorded. I just want more, everyone's a critic, etc. :cool:

For me, I think, the repetition and the “monotonous” vocal (which I know you’re not criticizing) is necessary for the song itself. The vocal on “Illume” shows great self-restraint; it’s a vocal that she wouldn’t have been able to do 12-13 years ago. It demands this mature approach that she has now. If it was “her voice dancing with the lyrics” (as you stated earlier when discussing “Thrown Down”), it wouldn’t have the same impact. I appreciate it how she doesn’t try to make the vocal “prettier” or more varying. Her vocal goes well with this groove-like, static arrangement. The whole “intentionally restrained monotony” (that the repetitive lyrics support) builds up to Lindsey’s goofy voice and then climaxes when Stevie’s voice returns. That’s the moment that makes everything before it rewarding; her vocals at the end feel even more intense than usual because of the self-control she has during most of the track. It’s just as devastating as the dramatic shift from the verses of “Come” to the chorus.

That’s just my take on it. For me it's a song that only goes to prove the age-old cliché: “sometimes less is more”.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by face of glass
. . . and then climaxes when Stevie’s voice returns. That’s the moment that makes everything before it rewarding; her vocals at the end feel even more intense than usual because of the self-control she has during most of the track.

The sense of urgency in her voice in that last movement is to me one of the most compelling things she has ever done. I agree it is made glorious by the monotony (sp.? and meant in a good way) of the song in general. It is as if she is awakening out of the trance like state she was in while looking all the way to Point Doom (sp.?) and crying out, perhaps to God, for help. :cool: No singer I know can have this effect - perhaps Annie Lenox comes close, but the way she does it is very very different (see "Why," "Little Bird," and the new LOTR song for good examples).

[gldstwmn]

Just read on a mialing list that I am on that The NYE Performance is a taped performance from the Keil, Germany show.:)

[pinklotus]

Hello Everybody

Just a question, will they do only one song or more from each artist ? If they would show more then one, it would be much nicer.

I also have another question. In the SLN Tour Diary ( http://stevie-nicks.info/fanclub.html ) I read about the Oberhausen Show:

November 13th, 2003
Oberhausen, Germany
..... There was also a lot of commotion today due to the fact that we were recording Peacekeeper for a television show (Editor’s note: it was for the AMA awards). I’m not even sure what show it was for, I just know that there was a television camera crew there, and that I heard the word Peacekeeper 4 million times today. It was the talk of the town.....

So, I really wonder, was the Performance now from Oberhausen or from Kiel ? I haven´t been in Kiel, but I was in Oberhausen. And there where much more Cameras then in Frankfurt.

Talking about the Peacekeeper performance at the AMA.
I´m really looking for a GOOD copy of it. I´m living in Germany, so I doubt that people will send me a VHS copy, especially I don´t have something interesting to trade. A GOOD mpeg version would be nice as well. I´m on WINMX all the time (Pinklotus 1971)
so I could download it from ther as well.
My eMail address is: [email protected]
Thanx a lot : ))

Alexandra
www.pinklotus.de

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
It is as if she is awakening out of the trance like state she was in while looking all the way to Point Doom (sp.?)

I think it's Point Dune, but who the hell knows with her.

- Jake

[gldstwmn]

Point Dume is in CA although I'm intrigued with Point Doom.:cool: Dune was that bad movie that Sting made.

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Point Dume is in CA although I'm intrigued with Point Doom.:cool: Dune was that bad movie that Sting made.

Maybe she was sucking up so he'll record with her.:)

- Jake

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Point Dume is in CA although I'm intrigued with Point Doom.:cool: Dune was that bad movie that Sting made.

:laugh: I agree "Point Doom" is quite a concept - very "Tolkeinesq" (sp.?) :cool:

I LIKED Sting's Dune :laugh: I actually read almost all of those Frank Hebert books. For awhile, my dearly departed Scottie (Mimi) got so fat I called her a "Shai Hulud" which was the Fremen word for the giant worms of Dune :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
:laugh: I agree "Point Doom" is quite a concept - very "Tolkeinesq" (sp.?) :cool:

I LIKED Sting's Dune :laugh: I actually read almost all of those Frank Hebert books. For awhile, my dearly departed Scottie (Mimi) got so fat I called her a "Shai Hulud" which was the Fremen word for the giant worms of Dune :laugh:

Actually when you think of a Point Doom, it fits in very well with the concept of the song.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Actually when you think of a Point Doom, it fits in very well with the concept of the song.

ITA - and that is what I thought it was until someone (Dissention perhaps or maybe you) told me there is a place called Point Dume in CA near SN's house. Personally, I think Stevie was doing her "play on words" thing a la "Bombay Sapphires," "lonliness of a one night stand," etc.

[pinklotus]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
ITA - and that is what I thought it was until someone (Dissention perhaps or maybe you) told me there is a place called Point Dume in CA near SN's house. Personally, I think Stevie was doing her "play on words" thing a la "Bombay Sapphires," "lonliness of a one night stand," etc.

Bombay Sapphire is a brand for a Gin ;)

Alexandra
www.pinklotus.de

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=130835

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
Maybe she was sucking up so he'll record with her.:)


:laugh: I guess that'll be one Stevie release you won't be buying, Jake? ;)

[bootylicous]

I almost forgot about this! Gosh I hope they show a Stevie song, I'm so sick of Peacekeeper!

[Cammie]

:wavey:Thanks to The Musical Executives
they did a Thrilling - Up rendition of
SECOND HAND NEWS!!! Loved how
Lindsey smiled at his adoring girls!
Stevie was on fire with her tambo!
That was a darn good choice!!!:woohoo:


Bombay Sapphire is a gorgeous blue!
Gin isn't my drink...but it is pretty!!!:eek:

Stevie is smart to "suck-up" to Sting!;)
She goes after the married guys!haha!

:blob2: A Very Happy NYC New Years!:blob2:

[AgainLindsey]

:thumbsup: "second hand news" is my favorite song from the "say you will tour"!!!!!!

sweeeeeeeeet!!!

awesome performance!!!!!

[macmar71]

Don't get me wrong...I like Peace Keeper but I think it has been played enough and to give a new song a turn would be nice. I almost did not tape the show because I was so sure it would be PK but I hit record and I am glad I did as it was a great version of SECOND HAND NEWS!!!

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
:laugh: I guess that'll be one Stevie release you won't be buying, Jake? ;)

Don't MAKE me tell the Sting/Stung story again.:mad: :wavey:

- Jake