Lindsey Buckingham is so rude!!!!!!

[diamondsnake]

Read this quote about Christine:

"As great as her songs were on recordings, they were not, generally speaking, the strongest things live," Buckingham said. "As much as I respect Christine and her legacy, this is very much in the tradition of Fleetwood Mac remaking itself once again, in a slightly smaller way this time.

"In our hearts of hearts, we were quite intrigued and excited about the possibility of doing something different. Because Christine wasn't there, the musicians had more space to maneuver."

"I'm a little bit territorial about what we've been able to achieve," he said. "If Christine were to call and say she wants to come back, would we say, 'No, you can't?' I don't know. As much as I love her, I would hope it doesn't happen. I feel like we're onto something very viable. In many ways, it's something Stevie and I have been waiting to do for a long time."



Excuse me! But since when is it his choice if Christine comes back to the band? She was there years before he even joined the band and was still in the band years after he left it. And the only people that should be able to make that kind of choice are Mick and John and from what I can tell they both love her and Stevie loves her too, calling her "her best friend". Everyone other then Lindsey loves her....

This just proves what I have been saying for the longest time Lindsey doesn't like Christine! But why?

And, not to get too defensive, but how dare he say that she is not a strong singer live? That is absolutely insane! Her songs from the dance were just as good or better then the studio recordings and besides, who is he to judge?

I'm sure he is just jealous that Christine has come up with oodles of hits over the years while he is only recognizable by one song: go your own way.

Lindsey hates Christine and loves one thing: himself.

I hate to say this but as much as I respect him as an artist, from what I can tell as a person he is not very nice....

I'm very sorry for the rant, I am just standing up for Christine!

[EnchantedSLN]

It seems you're neglecting certain parts of those quotes -- how about "I respect Christine and her legacy", or "as much as I love her..."? Besides, he didn't say she wasn't a strong singer live, he said her songs, generally speaking, were not as strong in concert as they were on the records. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's not the same as saying she isn't a strong singer.

I really don't get the vibe from these interviews that Lindsey "hates" Christine, or is dismissing her contributions to Fleetwood Mac as anything less than extraordinary. I think he has a genuine respect for her, both artistically and as a person. But you can't blame the guy for putting a positive angle on the situation. The band made it very clear that Christine chose not to be involved, and that her presence was missed. But you have to remember they had a record to promote... naturally he wasn't going to say "we really suck now that Christine's gone!" in all of these interviews.

[Rapunzel]

To be honest I can see Lindsey's point - I didn't miss her at all at the concerts this week.

Aine x

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by EnchantedSLN
It seems you're neglecting certain parts of those quotes -- how about "I respect Christine and her legacy", or "as much as I love her..."? Besides, he didn't say she wasn't a strong singer live, he said her songs, generally speaking, were not as strong in concert as they were on the records. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's not the same as saying she isn't a strong singer.

I really don't get the vibe from these interviews that Lindsey "hates" Christine, or is dismissing her contributions to Fleetwood Mac as anything less than extraordinary. I think he has a genuine respect for her, both artistically and as a person. But you can't blame the guy for putting a positive angle on the situation. The band made it very clear that Christine chose not to be involved, and that her presence was missed. But you have to remember they had a record to promote... naturally he wasn't going to say "we really suck now that Christine's gone!" in all of these interviews.

Well that is a very good point. I don't know, it is just that I get a vibe like he really doesn't care for her that much. Compared to what other bandmembers say about her, he is very negative....

But what about saying that he would reject her if she asked to comeback? Isn't that a bit bratty for him to act as if he controls the group? I really feel like everyone else, except for Lindsey, would love it if she came back...

[The Chain]

I'm sorry, I love LB's music, and he is an AWSOME artist, but come on, in someways, and sometimes, he can be a real jerk. Don't get me wrong, I think he is the coolest guy, but I have to agree with dimondsnake... Really, since when does he have the right to do decide if Chris comes back.... He has gotten MUCH more mature in the last 18 years, but I mean, in the Tango days, IMO he was totally self absorbed.... I can see your point

[darklinensuit]

I don't buy for one minute that he hates Christine, but I think it's probably easier to produce an album for three other musicians than for four. Having just two songwriters and just three personalities to please does allow him some more elbow room, and who can blame him for wanting that?

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Also, I have mixed feelings about the quote regarding Christine's live songs.
I never thought Little Lies or Everywhere translated well to the stage, but I liked Say You Love Me and Songbird, and I would have loved to have seen them include Homeward Bound, Honey Hi, or Oh Daddy in The Dance set list. Maybe it's that some of her songs didn't work live, but we could say that about some of Lindsey's and some of Stevie's, too. (Peacekeeper, anyone?)

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
I would have loved to have seen them include Homeward Bound, Honey Hi, or Oh Daddy in The Dance set list. Maybe it's that some of her songs didn't work live, but we could say that about some of Lindsey's and some of Stevie's, too. (Peacekeeper, anyone?)Actually, they did do "Oh Daddy" on the 'Dance' tour. :) Or were you referring to the concert video?

As far as the topic at hand... I had a discussion about this with an online friend of mine, a few months ago.
As a Christine fan, he was rather perturbed by Lindsey's comments... but I really don't think LB was meaning to be disrespectful towards Christine in any way, shape or form.

And I highly doubt that he hates her now, or has ever hated her. Remember, Lindsey & Christine used to work very closely together in the studio, and always seemed to have quite a bit of fun playing off each other on stage.

Lindsey has also said that he didn't pressure Christine when she said she wanted to leave the band, because he understood that need and desire.

I really don't think there is any animosity there whatsoever. It's just Lindsey, in his own way, expressing the excitement he felt towards the challenge of "reinventing" Fleetwood Mac, while also going back, in a lot of ways, to his and Stevie's roots.

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Actually, they did do "Oh Daddy" on the 'Dance' tour. :) Or were you referring to the concert video?

Either I'm getting old or I was just too distracted by the crappy Camden venue, but I have no memory of this.

I'm sure I enjoyed it, though.:nod: (Gee, that sounds like something I'll say fifty years from now after nightcaps at the senior center.)

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
Either I'm getting old or I was just too distracted by the crappy Camden venue, but I have no memory of this.You're in luck, Jake! Nancy has the Irvine Meadows, 1997 performance of "Oh Daddy" up for download right now on her bootlegs of the week page (http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/fun/bootleg.html), at BuckinghamNicks.net. :D

[darklinensuit]

Thanks, Johnny and Nancy.:wavey:

- Jake

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Surely Lindsey is entitled to an opinion. Doesn't mean he hates Christine. I'm pretty sure they've all said some scathing things about each other over the years! That's human nature!

Pip

[macfan 57]

I completely agree with just about everything diamondsnake said, except I don't think Lindsey actually hates Chris. But, these two were definitely not friends, merely colleagues. There is a great Goldmine interview that Chris did about 11 years ago. She mentioned that while she and Lindsey respected each other, they were never friends and that there was no personal connection between them. She also mentioned that he really didn't have any close personal friends at all. This interview may even be in the Blue Letter Archives on this website.

Really, all of Lindsey's interviews during that the last year have annoyed me to no end, as I suspect they have other Christine fans as well. It's really just his outlandish ego talking. The man has no class. He was never a team player, as diamondsnake said, it was always about him. And, I certainly don't agree with anything that he's said during these interviews. I'm glad to see that someone else has noticed this, too.

[Neal]

Anyone know where exactly these quotes of Lindsey's were taken from...???

[Nikolaj]

i took Lindsey's comments with a grain of salt, its kind of 'his way' and really in keeping with the tradition of Fleetwood Mac- when there's a line-up change, the tendencies of all the members seems to be to give props (reserved) to the departed member, and then say how the music can change, evolve and possibly be better. and sometimes even when they were all together- the comments!--- i'll never forget being at the LA Forum in '82 and Stevie had just finished singing 'Gypsy'-- and Lindsey said 'ok we're going to do another new song right now from 'Mirage' and THIS is one of the good ones- it was written by Christine McVie!" ('love in store' )-- Now in the SYW tourbook, he calls 'Gypsy' one of the songs he never gets tired of performing with Stevie :)
When Stevie especially, and to a lesser degree Christine, were having solo success, Lindsey said he saw their solo shows and that they were like lounge acts because they relied too much on Mac songs! Oh well!
Chris herself had a memorable quote circa 'Mirage' era regarding Stevie that ''her songs are all like her children to her, but some of them are really garbage"... Yet Stevie still says she considers Chris as a big sister, so i think these comments are just part of an almost sibling type of relationship in the band, so you get the bitter with the sweet. I think Lindsey and Stevie and Mick and John would all gladly welcome Christine back should she wish to re-join and tour, but with her gone, they're wisely promoting themselves as an obviously capable entity without her. I have to say i didn't miss Christine at the 4 shows i saw.
What i did find lacking was that for all of the talk about how the band planned on playing new songs live and stretching, the setlist is pretty darned predictable considering what they COULD be doing- more varied selections from SYW (try out a bunch of the new songs, rotate em and see what really works live!- hint: 'Miranda', 'Everybody Finds Out' and 'Thrown Down')-- don't ALWAYS make 'Dreams' the 2nd song of the night (for what, like 26 years now?)
Do throw in a 'Frozen Love' or any rare Buckingham-Nicks song to put some meaning behind the words of how they have been waiting since 1975 to be a duo in Fleetwood Mac, and shake it up a little! It's still basically a 'greatest hits' kind of tour, and Fleetwood Mac is so much better than that. With it being about 5 months ago, tho i greatly enjoyed both shows, i have to admit now that when i saw them in Worcester Mass 2 nights in a row, and the shows were IDENTICAL, i think it was the height of rock star laziness/fan unfriendly self-indulgence Fleetwood Mac should avoid. They HAD to know some of their die-hards would be there both nights, they should have thrown a bone to the fans and uttered a few different words between songs, and yes, even varied the set list a TAD so it didn't seem so.... written in stone. They also are aware that many fans travel to different cities (perhaps countries, now) and shouldn't be so stagnant and bull-headed about their set list. It's not a Broadway show, its a rock concert. Leave some room for change, a spontaneous moment, and a few surprise songs!

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by Nikolaj

When Stevie especially, and to a lesser degree Christine, were having solo success, Lindsey said he saw their solo shows and that they were like lounge acts because they relied too much on Mac songs! Oh well!

I remember that quote! He said they were like lounge acts because they rested so much on FM's laurels. I assumed he meant that they were doing several Mac songs in their acts (maybe he meant something else, who knows), which I took as strange since he did so many Mac songs in his act later.

- Jake

[cliffdweller]

Lindsey's an ass, a selfish, self-centered, control-freak and he always will be. Chrisitine is just as strong a member of Fleetwood Mac as anyone else, and like someone else pointed out, she was the main hitmaker of the bunch for a greater number of years than anyone else. Not that "hits" per se equals necessarily good music, but I think we can all agree that Christine is a gifted, competent musician and her songs are quite good, they also translate just fine live, I LOVED "Temporary One", "Say You Love Me", "Songbird", and "You Make Loving Fun" from The Dance. I also think that Fleetwood Mac's harmony (their signature three-part harmony that makes them so unique) falls flat without her. Christine has an amazing voice on its own too. If Lindsey doesn't mean anything by those quotes he should just stop saying things about Christine altogether-- if he can't say anything nice, he doesn't need to say anything at all!

[diamondsnake]

I'm glad some of you agree with me. I still enjoy his songs of course, he just rubs me the wrong way in interviews... But then again I can be a brat myself!

I especially thought it was mean to say she is not strong live. Because, if you ask me, she is the most talanted, as far as vocals go, in the band... and is the best piano player I can think of. Lindsey doesn't have a very good voice live. I have listened to his singing on some of the downloads from Say You Will shows and he basically screams and yells into the microphone. I am sure this has something to do with all the energy he is giving to his excellent guitar playing, but stilll....

Stevie's voice is my favorite because there is nothing like it. It is so unique, but it is not the strongest voice, which I am sure most would agree to. Christine obviously has the most range, I think. Stevie's voice isn't for everyone, but I can't get enough of her rasp! If that is a good way to put it.

I really feel like Lindsey should just do guitar and sing a few of his hits and let Stevie tackle the vocals. She is who most people are there to see anyways. And like I said, he is not a good live singer, in my opinion.

[jwd]

I highly doubt Chris will ever come back to the Mac and join as a full fledged member anyway. So I guess the statement Lindsey made is really just for argument's sake. Lindsey is the major creative force in the band these days. Of course there are three other members in the band who would have a say as to whether Chris could come back. But I tend to believe that if Lindsey didn't want to be involved with a Mac who became more pop and less rock oriented with Chris in the band, those three members would rather have him involved than not, and Christine would not be back in the band. Personally I would rather have her back because I think she adds another dimension to the lineup with her voice and style of songs. At least have her involved in a smaller role within the band by collaborating on a few songs. No matter who is in the band or not, I get SOME satisfaction from FM's music. They've always seemed to have found a way to keep creating a Mac sound over the years with different incarnations.



Joe

[madformac]

Lindsey is as entiltled to his opinions as we all are..

Personally I agree with much of his sentiment. Yes Christine contributed a lot to the group, but so did Peter Green, Jeremy Spencer, Danny Kirwan, Bob Welch, Vito, Burnette and others.

True there are some LB songs that fall flat live, Peacekeeper is one of them but generally they are good. Little Lies never worked live (but Lindsey wasn't on that particular tour) and I did actually like the Dance version of Say You Love Me because of the fresh twist put on it with the banjo etc.. "Temporary One" was exactly that in my opinion, only a one tour song and beneath Christine's usual standard and maybe an indicator that she was a spent force within the band. After all if any Ledgie here (somebody?) has heard the Time album (which I like and I think Christine's songs are the best on it) Chris basically said her farewells then in the lyrics.

I have to agree with LB that there are more Christine songs that don't work well live than Stevie or Lindsey songs. IMO, especially on the Dance tour it was an evident lack of emotion, Christine just didn't want to be on the road. Perhaps it's the lack of chemistry onstage from Chris on that tour during her songs that Lindsey is especially thinking about.

Christine *was* a well loved member of the band but that is in the *past*. This is the latest and probably last incarnation of Fleetwood Mac I believe.

She decided to retire which is totally understandable given her stint in the band and I hope she's really happy doing whatever she does. She didn't ask the rest of the band to stop because of her and I wouldn't expect or want any ex member of the band, which is what she is, to rejoin this line up (apart from Bob Welch maybe, that would be interesting :D )

Lindsey is the reason behind this group now. HIS solo work brought the band back together in 1997, HE produces and arranges the songs and without his energy and drive to make this album happen we wouldn't be here raving over the new album and tour. Be thankful for that.

Seem's to me Lindsey has never been given enough credit over the years for what he has done for this band and I can't blame him for wanting some praise finally. It must truly piss him off that every time he does an interview, when he want's to talk about the new incarnation of the band and the new album he keeps getting asked about an ex member of the band that left 5 years ago..... :o

It was originally Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, Peter being the creative genius within the group, now it's very much Lindsey Buckingham's Fleetwood Mac and I for one am happy with him to take the credit.

At the end of the day it's only Rock 'n' Roll anyway. :laugh:

:wavey:

[diamondsnake]

[i]

It was originally Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, Peter being the creative genius within the group, now it's very much Lindsey Buckingham's Fleetwood Mac and I for one am happy with him to take the credit.

:wavey: [/B]

I really don't beleive this is Lindsey's group because when it comes down to it, most people are going to the concerts to see Stevie and most people are buying the album to hear Stevie, as most critics have said in different articles.

If it was Lindsey's group and he was this genious then why was he forced to turn his solo record into a fleetwood mac album? because just him alone isn't good enough. no one would buy it, other then the big fans...

seriously though, it is not his band! Stevie's songs are what appeals to most of the people, even the big fans on this board. This was seen through a survivor type poll (towards the end it was practically a stevie solo album). and i don't beleive for one minute that lindsey is this master at turning stevie's songs into something great. she does that on her own, which is seen by trouble in shangrila which hit number three on the charts, just as "say you will" did. and shangrila was just as good, in my opinion!

so if it is anyones band it is stevies because that is who the general public want to see!

[shackin'up]

i am sorry ledgies, i love you all, but sometimes we are so dull....
:rolleyes:

[madformac]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I really don't beleive this is Lindsey's group because when it comes down to it, most people are going to the concerts to see Stevie and most people are buying the album to hear Stevie

If it was Lindsey's group and he was this genious then why was he forced to turn his solo record into a fleetwood mac album? because just him alone isn't good enough. no one would buy it, other then the big fans...

seriously though, it is not his band! Stevie's songs are what appeals to most of the people, even the big fans on this board. so if it is anyones band it is stevies because that is who the general public want to see!

Hmm, really?

George W Bush is your president but he doesn't run the country, it just looks like he does.... he's the figurehead. The country is run by the Senate, Chiefs Of Staff etc.. See what I'm saying?

the "big fans" on this board ( I'll trust that it's a figure of speech and you don't really mean if you are not a Stevie Nicks fan you are not a "big fan" of the band ;) ) and most people like Stevie IMO for her songs, which are very good but also because she's an icon and very easy to relate to as a celebrity. She is very good at what she does but at the end of the day she's a singer and a writer, albeit a very good one.

Lindsey is a writer, producer, arranger, engineer, guitarist and singer. In essence an artist and not just a performer. Again, he takes everything together and fashions something "Macish" from it. After he left the band Fleetwood Mac was still Fleetwood Mac but the sound changed..

John, Mick and Stevie seem to accept that it's really "his" band nowadays and he should get the praise, but yet it seems some of the "big fans" still can't accept it. :eek: :laugh:


BTW, just for the record I'm not the most major Lindsey fan on these boards and he's not my favorite Mac member, Peter Greenbaum has that honor.



:wavey: :wavey:

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by madformac
Hmm, really?

George W Bush is your president but he doesn't run the country, it just looks like he does.... he's the figurehead. The country is run by the Senate, Chiefs Of Staff etc.. See what I'm saying?

the "big fans" on this board ( I'll trust that it's a figure of speech and you don't really mean if you are not a Stevie Nicks fan you are not a "big fan" of the band ;) ) and most people like Stevie IMO for her songs, which are very good but also because she's an icon and very easy to relate to as a celebrity. She is very good at what she does but at the end of the day she's a singer and a writer, albeit a very good one.

Lindsey is a writer, producer, arranger, engineer, guitarist and singer. In essence an artist and not just a performer. Again, he takes everything together and fashions something "Macish" from it. After he left the band Fleetwood Mac was still Fleetwood Mac but the sound changed..

John, Mick and Stevie seem to accept that it's really "his" band nowadays and he should get the praise, but yet it seems some of the "big fans" still can't accept it. :eek: :laugh:


BTW, just for the record I'm not the most major Lindsey fan on these boards and he's not my favorite Mac member, Peter Greenbaum has that honor.

:wavey: :wavey:

Well obviously he is the most talanted as far as behind the scenes producing goes, but that still doesn't change the fact that Stevie is who the majority really love. So it isn't really his band.... It is everyone's band. But I really think that when it all comes down to it, Stevie Nicks is what keeps Fleetwood Mac alive. If she wasn't nice enough to hand them a few dozen demos when she was on her solo tour and if she wasn't nice enough to tour with them this year, then Fleetwood Mac would not be here today. It is as simple as that. Lindsey has even said, in not so many words, that the studio said it had to be FM with Stevie or else there was no deal.

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by madformac
John, Mick and Stevie seem to accept that it's really "his" band nowadays and he should get the praise, but yet it seems some of the "big fans" still can't accept it

I don't know if I'm being referred to as one of the "big fans" here but if I am, I just want to say that I've never been big on the idea of BN rejoining FM because it's for (what I personally deem as being for) the wrong reasons. It's for money, not for the music. They obviously think money is a good reason to do it for, so whatever, it's their decision and they've made it and are happy with it, good for them but I don't have to like it just because they do. I have no interest in them as people, I only care about the music and the sound history of the band that has been known as Fleetwood Mac and nothing more.

They can go around saying they've been "pushing envelopes" all they want on SYW but I'm sorry I disagree and I've read many a SYW review goon about how "80's" the album sounds so I can't be alone in my thinking of the album as though "good", being a retread. This is not to say I don't like the music on SYW as I liked OOTC, TISL, etc. etc. etc. as well but as an overal band sound, I think BN should've just stayed out of FM and either have FM end in 1996 or have them get new members and go on (if the "Time" lineup was not to continue) but of course with Mick's greed etc. there'll never be a "new member" of FM again because that's not in the best interests of his wallet and again, BN fans can say all they want about a FM "not being accepted without BN in it" but that's more the fault of the marketing people than the music, they COULD make it be "number 1" if they really wanted to but a "new look Mac" campaign would take more work and money from them and oh no, we can't have that! :) It's easy for them to get behind the BN stuff because they want to beat the soap opera back in to the ground where it's already been for decades becuas that's a sure thing for them making moey and demands no new thoughts on their part. Not that I care about sales but since many seem to persist in using sales as a measure to what's good and isn't, that's the only reason I say that here to make my point.

I personally don't see why Lindsey "should get praise" for "not doing anything differently than he was" and having the marketing people prove a point for him that some fans wish to believe is "his doing solely" (i.e. the "success" which is not down to him per my marketing people speech above, they are only doing that work because he and Stevie are standing there and no other reason, SYW could've had nothing but them burping on tape and they would've promoted it just the same way as they are now, though at least that would've been a change :) seriously though...).

My point is that if Mick, John & Stevie had accepted that FM was "his band" for a better reason then maybe I'd think differently but under the current set up, the money is not a good enough reason (to me personally) and I don't want to hear anyone being wise and saying "I'm sorry you don't give them your approval" as I never expected such a ridiculous thing in the first place.

Anyways, this is why I am "unaccepting" of the "LB'sFM" theory. Though true that I'm unaccepting of it, it's not for the reasons insinuated.

I just wanted to be clear regarding my stance is all and I'm happy for those of you that view this undoubtedly last incarnation of FM in a more positive light than I do. :)

John

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
I don't know if I'm being referred to as one of the "big fans" here but if I am, I just want to say that I've never been big on the idea of BN rejoining FM because it's for (what I personally deem as being for) the wrong reasons. It's for money, not for the music.While I think the financial aspect of it, is certainly appealing to all members of the band, I really don't think they would record a new album together simply for the money.

Stevie has a proven track-record as a highly profitable solo artist, so she could very easily stick with that... recording more albums more often, and touring to promote each of them... if she didn't really want to be with Fleetwood Mac for reasons other than finances.

And Stevie has said that Lindsey is quite comfortable financially, because he received royalties as both a songwriter in Fleetwood Mac, and as a producer... on top of the fact that he hasn't spent money lavishly over the years, as the other members have.
So given that, and the fact that he's traditionally been much happier working by himself, or could easily work as a producer for other artists, I feel his reasons for working with Fleetwood Mac have also been largely due to creative desires.

Again, I'm not saying that the money wouldn't be appealing to them... but in regards to Stevie & Lindsey at least, they really don't *need* Fleetwood Mac in order to earn a comfortable living.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by madformac
Seem's to me Lindsey has never been given enough credit over the years for what he has done for this band and I can't blame him for wanting some praise finally.

It was originally Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, Peter being the creative genius within the group, now it's very much Lindsey Buckingham's Fleetwood Mac and I for one am happy with him to take the credit.In some circles Lindsey doesn't get enough praise, and in other circles, he definitely gets a little too much.

It's never been fair to pin all of Fleetwood Mac's sucesss on any one member... and that includes Stevie.

Each has a talent and an appeal which lends itself to the musical chemistry of the band.

Yes, Lindsey is often brilliant in his production for the band and with his skills as a guitarist, and yes, Stevie is often brilliant in her songwriting and ability to reach a mass audience... but together, with Fleetwood Mac, they reach an even higher level of appeal.

Lindsey is getting a lot of praise for this album and his performances on this tour, but I've also read a number of reviews of both the album and the tour, that were far less impressed with him... stating that the songs are "overproduced," or that his live antics are overwrought.
The same goes for Stevie... some reviewers have stated that her songs are the best on the album, or that she's the more engaging performer on stage. Meanwhile, other critics have felt that her songs & performances are lacking in the appeal of her earlier work.

So basically, neither personality is completely dominating this incarnation of Fleetwood Mac... and that's the way it should be.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
I don't know if I'm being referred to as one of the "big fans" here but if I am, I just want to say that I've never been big on the idea of BN rejoining FM because it's for (what I personally deem as being for) the wrong reasons. It's for money, not for the music. They obviously think money is a good reason to do it for, so whatever, it's their decision and they've made it and are happy with it, good for them but I don't have to like it just because they do. I have no interest in them as people, I only care about the music and the sound history of the band that has been known as Fleetwood Mac and nothing more.

They can go around saying they've been "pushing envelopes" all they want on SYW but I'm sorry I disagree and I've read many a SYW review goon about how "80's" the album sounds so I can't be alone in my thinking of the album as though "good", being a retread. This is not to say I don't like the music on SYW as I liked OOTC, TISL, etc. etc. etc. as well but as an overal band sound, I think BN should've just stayed out of FM and either have FM end in 1996 or have them get new members and go on (if the "Time" lineup was not to continue) but of course with Mick's greed etc. there'll never be a "new member" of FM again because that's not in the best interests of his wallet and again, BN fans can say all they want about a FM "not being accepted without BN in it" but that's more the fault of the marketing people than the music, they COULD make it be "number 1" if they really wanted to but a "new look Mac" campaign would take more work and money from them and oh no, we can't have that! :) It's easy for them to get behind the BN stuff because they want to beat the soap opera back in to the ground where it's already been for decades becuas that's a sure thing for them making moey and demands no new thoughts on their part. Not that I care about sales but since many seem to persist in using sales as a measure to what's good and isn't, that's the only reason I say that here to make my point.

I personally don't see why Lindsey "should get praise" for "not doing anything differently than he was" and having the marketing people prove a point for him that some fans wish to believe is "his doing solely" (i.e. the "success" which is not down to him per my marketing people speech above, they are only doing that work because he and Stevie are standing there and no other reason, SYW could've had nothing but them burping on tape and they would've promoted it just the same way as they are now, though at least that would've been a change :) seriously though...).

My point is that if Mick, John & Stevie had accepted that FM was "his band" for a better reason then maybe I'd think differently but under the current set up, the money is not a good enough reason (to me personally) and I don't want to hear anyone being wise and saying "I'm sorry you don't give them your approval" as I never expected such a ridiculous thing in the first place.

Anyways, this is why I am "unaccepting" of the "LB'sFM" theory. Though true that I'm unaccepting of it, it's not for the reasons insinuated.

I just wanted to be clear regarding my stance is all and I'm happy for those of you that view this undoubtedly last incarnation of FM in a more positive light than I do. :)

John

Money is the driving force in just about everything in the world, so I don't blame them... however, I don't think that it is all about money. If it was then they wouldn't have made Say You Will in the first place. That took years on Lindsey's part and about a year or two on Stevie's part. And compared to what they make touring, they hardly made any money on the album and they knew that would happen from the start. So if it was really about money then they would have toured all that time and forgot about the new record. They could just call it a reunion tour.

I also really feel that Stevie's motivation for this record was to be nice to Lindsey. I really feel it was a favor to him because she has had to put her life on hold for years. And this was right after her huge comeback: Trouble in Shangri-La.

Stevie also said that she didn't want to do another fleetwood mac project without christine. However, I am sure she didn't want to be rude to Lindsey, because she knows she is the star of the show and no one would buy the record without her picture on the cover!

[Cammie]

Speaking of Rudness...My Dear...You
certainly have a large dose! Why say
such dumb things about Lindsey when
he... asked Stevie to do this project!!!
Lindsey must stop being so Honest!!!:eek:

Mick is the one needing the cd and tour!
Stevie sat on a couch...looked right at the
camera and stated," This is NOT about
MUSIC...This is about FINANCES! Sky:)

[diamondsnake]

[i]
Mick is the one needing the cd and tour!
Stevie sat on a couch...looked right at the
camera and stated," This is NOT about
MUSIC...This is about FINANCES! Sky:) [/B]

What exactly did Stevie mean when she said that. Did she mean it is about her finances and she doesn't care about the music, or did she mean that Mick doesn't care about the music? I hope Stevie was not seriously talking about herself. I thought she was a little more into the music then that...

[Johnny Stew]

When Stevie was saying "this is not about art, this about finances," we have no way of knowing in what context that was being said.

Perhaps it was said in regards to boiling the album down to one disc, as opposed to two... which they've said that they did, because they were unsure of how well a two-disc set would do in today's market.

But in relation to the recording of the album, I do not for one second believe that ANY of them did it "purely for the money."

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Cammie
Why say
such dumb things about Lindsey when
he... asked Stevie to do this project!!!
Lindsey must stop being so Honest!!!:eek:Just in the interest of keeping facts straight, I don't recall anyone in the band ever saying that Lindsey, or anyone, "asked" Stevie to do this album.

When it became apparent that Christine definitely wasn't coming back, they all decided to keep Fleetwood Mac going, and when Mick, John & Lindsey started to go full-steam ahead on a new album, Stevie willingly gave the band a CD with 15 demos that they could listen to and choose their favorites from (some of which she had actually pulled off of 'Trouble In Shangri-La' because she felt they would make better Mac songs).

I think Lindsey and Stevie were equally enthusiastic about this project (although Stevie has said that she did have some initial trepidations about recording as Fleetwood Mac, without Christine). :)

[wetcamelfood]

OK, fair enough if we agree to disagree on why they did the album, I don't profess to knowing anything about them as people or why they decide what they do, it's just my guess and I did say it was mainly Mick that I think is doing it "just for the money". I mean, it's not like they're going to say in an interview:"yeah, we just want your money, that's the only reason we're here". naturally they're going to say all of the fluffy stuff. So I guess we'll never REALLY know.

As for LB & SN., I see what you're saying Johnny Stew, but if Stevie doesn't need FM, then why DOES she stay in the band? Lindsey is happy to come back due to the fact that no one will stand in his way now regarding creative freedom and as that's what he wants, he's getting his way, so I hope he's happy about that ...and I hope Mick is happy that he's thrown the idea of FM being a BAND out the window. JMHO though. :)

Why DOES there HAVE to be a "figurehead" etc. anyways? Just curious, that must be the part I don't get. :)

I was only trying to point out why I, as, presumably, one of the "big upset fans" am "unaccepting" of LB & SN coming back to the Mac. Again, I do admit that I am unaccepting of it but not for the reasons insinuated in that post. I've said my piece so I'll leave this thread now. As also said, I respect the differing opinions of the others in this thread, I just wanted to make my stance clear as one of the "big unaccepting fans" is all. :)

John

[Nikolaj]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diamondsnake

I especially thought it was mean to say she is not strong live. Because, if you ask me, she is the most talented, as far as vocals go, in the band...

Had to respond to this diamondsnake. and i like Christine and respect the thought that goes into your posts :)
That said, did you attend many Fleetwood Mac concerts since the 70s? It's wonderful to be young, and my 6th sense thinks you may be young... Me, that boat has sailed :) I've seen them live MANY times since my teenage years of the late 1970s, and while an opinion is just an opinion, subjective, i MUST say that for me Lindsey and Stevie are by FAR stronger singers than Christine live, and always have been. -- Chris had a tendency to be flat and off-key in concert, there are a couple of versions of 'Songbird' ( i think the one i'm thinking of is on the Tusk documentary) where you hurt for her she's struggling so. Stevie for her 'raspiness' you mentioned had/has the most vocal range by far, her skill for harmonies are amazing on many of Christine's songs live (early live versions of 'You Make Loving Fun' and 'Say You Love Me' were greatly aided by Stevie helping Chris with extra vocals on stage) and Stevie can rock out and be raspy, she could always (well, usually, ha!) put over the tenderness of 'Landslide' and her "incredible show-woman" ability (Christine's words) really made Mac's early live performances legendary. For me, and some others, Stevie Nicks is the voice of Fleetwood Mac. Christine is very talented, but for me her talent is larger as a songwriter and a studio singer than as a live performer, she just never had Lindsey's and Stevie's ability on stage, and a lot of it was because Christine's singing was never as good live as on lp/cd. Chris had a quiet grace/strength on stage but there were a number of filmed performances (tv shows like 'The Midnight Special') where it seemed she was very uncomfortable being on stage, Lindsey and Stevie never had that issue. But Christine's certainly respected as a major part of Fleetwood Mac's legacy, so don't get me wrong :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Excuse me! But since when is it his choice if Christine comes back to the band? She was there years before he even joined the band and was still in the band years after he left it. And the only people that should be able to make that kind of choice are Mick and John and from what I can tell they both love her and Stevie loves her too, calling her "her best friend". Everyone other then Lindsey loves her....

This just proves what I have been saying for the longest time Lindsey hates Christine! But why?

And, not to get too defensive, but how dare he say that she is not a strong singer live? That is absolutely insane! Her songs from the dance were just as good or better then the studio recordings and besides, who is he to judge?

I'm sure he is just jealous that Christine has come up with oodles of hits over the years while he is only recognizable by one song: go your own way.

Lindsey hates Christine and loves one thing: himself.

I hate to say this but as much as I respect him as an artist, from what I can tell as a person he is not very nice....

I'm very sorry for the rant, I am just standing up for Christine!

You're excused.

1. Lindsey and Christine were never friends. They just understood each other musically.

2. He never said that it was his choice to let her come back into the band. He said he hoped it didn't happen.

3. It should not be up to John and Mick, it should be up to all four of them. After all, they are the band at this moment.

4. He never said that her singing wasn't strong live. He sadi that her songs weren't. And, when you put them next to rockers like I'm So Afraid and Rhiannon, they aren't. But I love them.

5. He is capable of judging just as much as we are of judging music.

6. He is not recognizable for just one song.

7. Hits don't matter if you are the one who is producing their sound.

8. Never did I get the impression that he hates Christine. I think he's known her long enough not to hate her.

9. It isn't wrongfor him to be enjoying the latest incarnation of the Mac.

Try to read the quotes a little more accurately next time. :) ;)

[PenguinHead]

ditto, dissention! lol

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I really don't beleive this is Lindsey's group because when it comes down to it, most people are going to the concerts to see Stevie and most people are buying the album to hear Stevie, as most critics have said in different articles.

If it was Lindsey's group and he was this genious then why was he forced to turn his solo record into a fleetwood mac album? because just him alone isn't good enough. no one would buy it, other then the big fans...

seriously though, it is not his band! Stevie's songs are what appeals to most of the people, even the big fans on this board. This was seen through a survivor type poll (towards the end it was practically a stevie solo album). and i don't beleive for one minute that lindsey is this master at turning stevie's songs into something great. she does that on her own, which is seen by trouble in shangrila which hit number three on the charts, just as "say you will" did. and shangrila was just as good, in my opinion!

so if it is anyones band it is stevies because that is who the general public want to see!

Just as many critics said that Lindsey's songs are the best on SYW and that some of Stevie's are just embarassing.

He was never forced to turn it into a FM record. He chose to do that. And record sales don't matter to many music fans as long as the music is great.

He never claimed that it is his band, but he is the one who is keeping it on the radar and profitable. If he wasn't in it, Stevie wouldn't be in it, either. If he wasn't in it, the Mac would be doing retro tours with REO Speedwagon once again. If he wasn't in it, they wouldn't be able to command $125 in ticket prices or play at the venues they play at.

And if Stevie is the only thing keeping the band afloat, explain to me why Peacekeeper was the biggest hit they've had in years and SYW flopped? Certainly her backing vocals on peacekeeper weren't that fabulous.

[Nikolaj]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dissention


1. Lindsey and Christine were never friends. They just understood each other musically.

Dissention, you rock.. and i'll never forget 'we see no change in sight, Stevie wore her ratty dress last night'-- you and gldstwmn and JohnnyStew always make me glad i read these messages :)

Lindsey and Christine sure did understand each other musically, like you said. We probably all remember Stevie commenting about being hurt (momentarily) when Lindsey&Chris collaborated right away on 'World Turning' together when she was itching for him to co-write with her. And 'Don't Stop' was practially a Chris and Lindsey duet, wasn't it?
I think Lindsey and Christine actually were tight for a while, but i think a lot of this goes in cycles- and Lindsey was sympatico enough with Chris when she wanted to leave the band to say he understood how she felt as he had experienced her feelings around the time of 'Tango'-- i think it was actually an act of 'friendship' if you will that Lindsey and the rest of the band supported Chris' decision, when they ALL wanted to bring 'The Dance' tour to Europe. I believe Lindsey and Stevie (and Mick and John!) when they wish Chris the best, say they miss her, and yet are happy to be making music together again even tho she's gone. I don't think there's any drama about Christine in their minds now, they're too busy working!
oh and dissention, if i have your ear, and you still have your website, if you have a list, sometime anytime, i'd love to hear chris isaak's and stevie's ''solitary man'' -- and thanks so much for 'sunday kind of love', i had thought i'd never get to hear it so i'm very grateful! :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by Nikolaj
Dissention, you rock.. and i'll never forget 'we see no change in sight, Stevie wore her ratty dress last night'-- you and gldstwmn and JohnnyStew always make me glad i read these messages :)

oh and dissention, if i have your ear, and you still have your website, if you have a list, sometime anytime, i'd love to hear chris isaak's and stevie's ''solitary man'' -- and thanks so much for 'sunday kind of love', i had thought i'd never get to hear it so i'm very grateful! :)

How can I ever be humble after that?! :laugh:

When I update my page, I'll add Solitary Man. Fab-o song! :nod:

[golden braid]

Originally posted by dissention
And if Stevie is the only thing keeping the band afloat, explain to me why Peacekeeper was the biggest hit they've had in years and SYW flopped? Certainly her backing vocals on peacekeeper weren't that fabulous.

I think Peacekeeper did better because it was the first single released. The band was promoting the album more at the time and the song was on AOL and the radio. It was the first new Fleetwood Mac single in a long time so because of that it got more attention.. If SYW had been released first I think it would have done better than it did.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by golden braid
I think Peacekeeper did better because it was the first single released. The band was promoting the album more at the time and the song was on AOL and the radio. It was the first new Fleetwood Mac single in a long time so because of that it got more attention.. If SYW had been released first I think it would have done better than it did.

I agree. And not only that but it practically a duet between them because after the first line Stevie sings through the entire song, not just on backup...

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Just as many critics said that Lindsey's songs are the best on SYW and that some of Stevie's are just embarassing.

He was never forced to turn it into a FM record. He chose to do that. And record sales don't matter to many music fans as long as the music is great.

He never claimed that it is his band, but he is the one who is keeping it on the radar and profitable. If he wasn't in it, Stevie wouldn't be in it, either. If he wasn't in it, the Mac would be doing retro tours with REO Speedwagon once again. If he wasn't in it, they wouldn't be able to command $125 in ticket prices or play at the venues they play at.

And if Stevie is the only thing keeping the band afloat, explain to me why Peacekeeper was the biggest hit they've had in years and SYW flopped? Certainly her backing vocals on peacekeeper weren't that fabulous.

The only reason he chose to turn it into a FM record is because they would reject it if it was a sioo record!

SYW didn't exactly flop. Peacekeeper was on the top ten of adult contemp. for about a week or two and then I never heard it again! And Say You Will was in the top twenty for a few months andf I heard it plenty of times. I don't know how often you heard the different singles though.

And obviously Lindsey is the only reason Stevie joined again, but if there was no Stevie there would be no Mac album and tour either... So when it all comes down to it, they are equally important to FM happening this time around.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Nikolaj
[QUOTE]Originally posted by diamondsnake

I especially thought it was mean to say she is not strong live. Because, if you ask me, she is the most talented, as far as vocals go, in the band...

Had to respond to this diamondsnake. and i like Christine and respect the thought that goes into your posts :)
That said, did you attend many Fleetwood Mac concerts since the 70s? It's wonderful to be young, and my 6th sense thinks you may be young... Me, that boat has sailed :) I've seen them live MANY times since my teenage years of the late 1970s, and while an opinion is just an opinion, subjective, i MUST say that for me Lindsey and Stevie are by FAR stronger singers than Christine live, and always have been. -- Chris had a tendency to be flat and off-key in concert, there are a couple of versions of 'Songbird' ( i think the one i'm thinking of is on the Tusk documentary) where you hurt for her she's struggling so. Stevie for her 'raspiness' you mentioned had/has the most vocal range by far, her skill for harmonies are amazing on many of Christine's songs live (early live versions of 'You Make Loving Fun' and 'Say You Love Me' were greatly aided by Stevie helping Chris with extra vocals on stage) and Stevie can rock out and be raspy, she could always (well, usually, ha!) put over the tenderness of 'Landslide' and her "incredible show-woman" ability (Christine's words) really made Mac's early live performances legendary. For me, and some others, Stevie Nicks is the voice of Fleetwood Mac. Christine is very talented, but for me her talent is larger as a songwriter and a studio singer than as a live performer, she just never had Lindsey's and Stevie's ability on stage, and a lot of it was because Christine's singing was never as good live as on lp/cd. Chris had a quiet grace/strength on stage but there were a number of filmed performances (tv shows like 'The Midnight Special') where it seemed she was very uncomfortable being on stage, Lindsey and Stevie never had that issue. But Christine's certainly respected as a major part of Fleetwood Mac's legacy, so don't get me wrong :)

Well Stevie is the voice of FM because it is so unique and she has my favorite out of all there voices, but as far as Studio albums go at least Christine's voice is the purest and sweetest of the voices. And I still stand by my opinon that today at least, Lindsey is not a great singer. Have you listened to some of the live downloads from this tour? He is just screaming if you ask me. And I never knew Christine had so much trouble singing live.... The live concert videos I have seen show her in top form, at least.

[xdreamsunwindx]

so if it is anyones band it is stevies because that is who the general public want to see!

Hun, that equation is incorrect on many levels.

First of all, Fleetwood Mac is not just Stevie's band. Fleetwood Mac is made up of sixteen different members, while we may not necessarily care for all of 'em, FM is still well, not one person's band. It's not Stevie's band, nor is it Lindsey's, Christine's, etc. It's made up of all of them, know what I mean?

Second of all, not everyone goes to see Stevie. When you said that, you stated that the *general public* wanted to see Stevie, not the fans. Granted, most of the fans probably want to see her, but not all of them. So when you say *general public*, you don't necessarily mean the fans, do you?

To get back on topic, Lindsey does not hate Chris. He likes to go on about "artistic freedom", sure, but he does not hate her. We all know that he respects her as both a musician and as a person, even though they may not be buddies. Besides, I'm sure that if she'd ever want to rejoin FM, he wouldn't be the one who made the final decision of whether or not she could come back again. To be honest, she's been in that band long enough so if she decides that she wants to rejoin, leave, etc she can do so as she damn well pleases. Just, please don't automatically assume wrong/point a finger/etc when you don't know exactly what one means, etc. I've done that one too many times in the past :nod:.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
I see what you're saying Johnny Stew, but if Stevie doesn't need FM, then why DOES she stay in the band?The answer is different depending on what era one is referring to.

After Lindsey left in 1987, it seems (from Stevie's more recent comments to the media) that she stayed because she felt a loyalty to Fleetwood Mac.

Around the time of 'The Dance,' I think it's safe to say she returned to the band for the chance at mending fences, and returning with them to the "glory days" of their popularity.

Currently, I'd imagine... again, based on comments made... that she's with them, because she enjoys being a part of a band (even when her solo career was at its heights, she often said how much she loved being a member of Fleetwood Mac), and because of the chance to work with Lindsey again, in a situation somewhat like their aborted 'Buckingham Nicks' days.

Except maybe for the "dark days" of her Klonopin addiction, Stevie has always had nothing but praise for Fleetwood Mac and its members, and has always talked about how much she loves being a part of such a great band.

So I'm comfortable in saying that that's why she's with the band today, and not because of the chance to make a few extra dollars.

By the way, John, I don't want you to think that I was dismissing your opinion, or anything like that.
I have a great amount of respect for you and your point of view... I just wanted to explore the other side of the "they're doing it for money" point of view. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
(Lindsey) was never forced to turn it into a FM record. He chose to do that.Not arguing, Dissention, but I wanted to point out that, while Lindsey wasn't literally "forced" into turning his solo album into a Fleetwood Mac record, it was met with a great deal of apathy from the record company... which wouldn't be too reassuring, I'm sure.

Despite the fact that Lindsey's choice to re-work it as a Fleetwood Mac album had the potential to bring his music to a much larger audience (therefore resulting in more money in his pocket), I still honestly don't feel that that was his total motivation.

If he didn't really want to spend a year arranging and producing Stevie's songs, and if he didn't want to collaborate with her in the studio, he could have easily released 'Gift Of Screws' on an independent label.

I should hope that anyone who regards Lindsey as an artist, would give him more credit than to believe he just "did it for the money." (By the way, so there isn't any confusion, that's not directed at you, Dissention, or anyone here... it's just a general opinion.) :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Nikolaj
Dissention -- you and gldstwmn and JohnnyStew always make me glad i read these messages :)Wow... thank you, Nikolaj! I really appreciate that compliment. :) :D

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
He was never forced to turn it into a FM record. He chose to do that. And record sales don't matter to many music fans as long as the music is great.

That is not exactly true. While I do not believe anyone can force LB to do anything, I do think the way things played out he was somewhat forced to make "Gift of Screws" into a FM record. According to him, the record company, for whatever reason (changing of the guard, etc.), was not interested in him solo. Interestingly, they suddenly were interested in his same solo stuff once Fleetwood Mac got on board. I honestly do not think that they would have been interested from a commercial point of view if that FM did not include Stevie.

In any event, I love LB. I think he is brilliant. It is just he cannot sell his great product in any commercially significant number to the masses like Stevie has a history of being able to do live and recorded. So, I think it is great they are "back together" because we get more music released in a public forum.

Plus, I think the members of FM like being together. I think CM likes being with the members of FM, but does not want to tour. After all, she offered to record with them, but not tour. For her to do that, she must like them on some level.

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
The answer is different depending on what era one is referring to.

After Lindsey left in 1987, it seems (from Stevie's more recent comments to the media) that she stayed because she felt a loyalty to Fleetwood Mac.

Around the time of 'The Dance,' I think it's safe to say she returned to the band for the chance at mending fences, and returning with them to the "glory days" of their popularity.

Currently, I'd imagine... again, based on comments made... that she's with them, because she enjoys being a part of a band (even when her solo career was at its heights, she often said how much she loved being a member of Fleetwood Mac), and because of the chance to work with Lindsey again, in a situation somewhat like their aborted 'Buckingham Nicks' days.

Except maybe for the "dark days" of her Klonopin addiction, Stevie has always had nothing but praise for Fleetwood Mac and its members, and has always talked about how much she loves being a part of such a great band.

So I'm comfortable in saying that that's why she's with the band today, and not because of the chance to make a few extra dollars.

By the way, John, I don't want you to think that I was dismissing your opinion, or anything like that.
I have a great amount of respect for you and your point of view... I just wanted to explore the other side of the "they're doing it for money" point of view. :)

Not upset here, I knew that's all you were doing Johnny Stew and I do thank you for the answer as I was honestly just asking because I admit that I don't generally read interviews as such so thanks for that answer. :)

You probably are right in what you disseminated from her quotes in this subject but I still get the feeling of doubt that, now that the "klonopin days" are over, if LB did leave and Mick got new members and went on, she'd still "feel a loyalty to FM" THEN and stay with the band but I could be wrong. As it's quite clear to me that the days of FM getting new members is long gone, then I guess we'll never really know for sure. Anyways Johnny Stew, I respect your posts as well, you always have realistic ways of looking at things which I highly enjoy reading. :)

I would like to hear some opinions though as to why some feel that there HAS to be a "leader/figurehead" in "bands"? Maybe I just prefer the team approach but I would like to know why it's considered better for someone to stay in a band and "dictate" what goes on rather than just going solo and letting a band be a band. I'm honestly just curious is all. :)

John

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diamondsnake
I really don't beleive this is Lindsey's group because when it ...most people are going to the concerts to see Stevie and most people are buying the album to hear Stevie, as most critics have said in different articles.


Uh, dude, you're going to have to show us these articles in which "most critics" are saying this. From what I've seen, it's been pretty much 50/50 in terms of the critics' preference for Lindsey or Stevie.

If it was Lindsey's group and he was this genious then why was he forced to turn his solo record into a fleetwood mac album? because just him alone isn't good enough. no one would buy it, other then the big fans...

There is some truth to that, but Stevie solo ain't exactly "what I seem to touch these days turns to gold" anymore.

Furthermore, I'm actually kind of happy Christine is gone. It leaves more room for Lindsey and Stevie. And even though I don't like a lot of Stevie's newer stuff, a lot of it is still better than Christine's most recent stuff. Everything on Time was pretty much disposable and Temporary One was gag-inducing.

Christine wrote some wonderful songs earlier. But a lot of the stuff, lyrically, was vapid and uninteresting. Her keyboard and harmony contributions, however, were intrinsic to the Fleetwood Mac sound. Even if at times I wish she had relied more on piano than keyboard patches.

I truly believe today's Mac exists primarily because Lindsey wanted back in. If he hadn't returned, Stevie would have stayed away too. So no Mac.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Currently, I'd imagine... again, based on comments made... that she's with them, because she enjoys being a part of a band (even when her solo career was at its heights, she often said how much she loved being a member of Fleetwood Mac), and because of the chance to work with Lindsey again, in a situation somewhat like their aborted 'Buckingham Nicks' days.

That's an interesting aside you toss in there. Stevie's career was "at its heights" after The Dance because of The Dance. She and her manager were very clever to release Enchanted, go on tour and record a new album. She therefore deserved whatever success came her way at that point. I'm not crazy about Shangri La, but I concede she made all the right moves at that point (to the point of following the Santana Supernatural formula to some extent). And for people who love the album, well, that's just greatness. But I seriously doubt she would have had as much success without The Dance.

And why the The Dance? Lindsey. Which only makes it more frustrating for us Lindsey fans that he wasn't more marketing savvy right after The Dance.

Lastly, Diamondsnake, there is no such thing as the "voice" of FM. If you truly believe Stevie is that, you simply don't know enough about the history of the band. There is no "voice." There is a "sound," which changed over the years. As I see it, FM has had three major "sound" stages: Peter Green, Bob Welch and Lindsey. And the band exists today because of Lindsey.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
That is not exactly true. While I do not believe anyone can force LB to do anything, I do think the way things played out he was somewhat forced to make "Gift of Screws" into a FM record. According to him, the record company, for whatever reason (changing of the guard, etc.), was not interested in him solo

Strand, there remains some ambiguity around the statements he has made about that. Read them closely and you'll see what I mean. Lindsey is a master at leaving things unsaid withouth having to outright lie. I've seen that in later news reports about the tour and the album, the story that the label "rejected" Gift of Screws has been reported as fact, (probably because the reporters read Lindsey's earlier comments) but I don't believe that has been established. If Lindsey wanted to release Gift of Screws, he would have found a way. There are plenty of labels who would have picked him up if he had found a way out of the Warner contract. He really didn't want to.

Lindsey thinks this music he's making is so good that he believes it would have been a sin to not make it widely available. He obviously feared another solo album would sell at about the same level as Cradle, and I don't think his ego could take it. However, had he leveraged The Dance's success and released the damn thing around the same time as Stevie released Enchanted, he could have parlayed the FM tour's success into a pretty good reception for his solo efforts.

[strandinthewind]

Carne - I know. Although I am happy with the results of SYW as a FM project and SN's added vocals (particularly the song "Miranda"), I, too, wish LB would have released GOS as a solo project. I think this mostly because I would have rather SYW been more of a group effort instead of for the most part, LB coming in with an already completed solo project that only John and Mick had worked partially on and Stevie being on tour and coming in for the last year or so of production. But, in the end, I am happy with SYW. I just hope the next record (he says hopefully) is more of a group effort.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
The only reason he chose to turn it into a FM record is because they would reject it if it was a sioo record!

SYW didn't exactly flop. Peacekeeper was on the top ten of adult contemp. for about a week or two and then I never heard it again! And Say You Will was in the top twenty for a few months andf I heard it plenty of times. I don't know how often you heard the different singles though.

And obviously Lindsey is the only reason Stevie joined again, but if there was no Stevie there would be no Mac album and tour either... So when it all comes down to it, they are equally important to FM happening this time around.

That's exactly it: he chose to turn it into a Mac record, just as he did with TITN. We can debate it all we want, but no one twisted Lindsey's arm and said "You MUST turn this into a Mac record!!" He had a variety of options available, such as releasing it independently (lord knows he has the cash to do so and it isn't that expensive). However, he chose to turn it into a group effort for whatever reason, be it for the money or the creative aspects. I suspect both.

And SYW was a flop. Certainly not a flop on the scale that Thrown Down and SYHA will flop, but it was a flop. Peacekeeper was riding high on the adult contemp. charts for a lot longer than a couple of weeks and it was the only new single so far to hit the Hot 100 chart on Billboard, quite the feat for a new Mac song.

Like I said, her backing vocals weren't THAT good that her contributions made it the hit it is.

[David]

Originally posted by CarneVaca Christine wrote some wonderful songs earlier. But a lot of the stuff, lyrically, was vapid and uninteresting. Her keyboard and harmony contributions, however, were intrinsic to the Fleetwood Mac sound. Even if at times I wish she had relied more on piano than keyboard patches.[/B] Do you mean acoustic piano? Which "keyboard patches" do you feel would have made better parts if played on a piano? I think the early piano take of "Never Make Me Cry" was fantastic, better than the muted guitar thing they finalized. There's less & less of that as you track the albums through the years, with a couple of notable exceptions, like "Love Shines" & "Roll With Me, Henry."

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I agree. And not only that but it practically a duet between them because after the first line Stevie sings through the entire song, not just on backup...

I just don't see where Peacekeeper is practically a duet. She sings back-up on it, that's it. She's not the primary voice on the song, Lindsey's voice is.

[sodascouts]

Lot to reply to here!

I've noticed that Lindsey seems eager to take advantage of Christine's departure, but is that a bad thing? She ditched them and it's pretty harsh to blame Lindsey for wanting to move on. And "hate" is a strong word and not to be tossed around lightly, IMHO.

Yes, Lindsey enjoys having more control, being able to have more of his songs on the album, being able to play more of his songs live. Of course! He's human, isn't he? What do you expect him to feel? And you know what, I bet Stevie is happy to get more of her songs on the album, too. That's why she went solo originally, remember? So unless she's so distraught about Christine leaving that she's unable to enjoy having more of her songs available to the public (fat chance that!) she also can see positives from Christine leaving. I doubt she lies weeping in bed clutching Chris' picture every night. In fact, as for them being "best friends" Stevie might find it nice to say that, but (and I'm sorry I can't quote the source, my memory is not that hot) I remember reading that Christine hadn't spoken to ANY of the band members on any more than a perfunctory professional level for YEARS. At least she sent them flowers and a note before Columbus. From Mick's bubbly "Did you see the note?!" to Lindsey, it sounded like something unexpected and unusual. And Lindsey didn't spit out, "Flowers from that dried up hag? Who needs 'em!" (OK, I realize I'm being a bit ridiculous there, but you get my point.) Instead, he agreed with Mick she was a "class act."

I'll be honest and admit that sometimes I too wonder what went down when Christine left. It seems to me that it wasn't all champagne and roses.... but as I said earlier, "hatred" is pretty extreme. I don't get from his carefully tactful and respectful comments on her departure intense hatred!

Ah, and what to say about the endless Lindsey v. Stevie debate? I love them both the same, lol. And I know many won't agree with me, but I believe that both Lindsey and Stevie are integral to the success of Fleetwood Mac. Would Fleetwood Mac flounder without Stevie? Yes. Perhaps it wouldn't get backing, although Time did. But look at Behind the Mask. Not that it's wretched, but Lindsey was SORELY missed. And many members of this "general public" that are supposedly "only there for Stevie" decided not to buy it, or attend the concerts. Could it be Lindsey's absence had something to do with this? I see no other explanation, so how can the theory that Stevie does it all be correct?

I will also admit Lindsey desperately wants his material to be WIDELY heard and that is why he didn't take measures to release GOS on his own. It wasn't due to self-sacrificial devotion to FM, lol. But "forced" is another strong word I wouldn't apply to the situation. I do believe he would have quickly released another solo album the record company had shown interest, however. He didn't "hold back" for Fleetwood Mac's sake. However, he didn't HAVE to come back to FM either. The man is not hurtin' for money. I am eternally grateful that he did so anyway!

I really don't see a need to polarize and claim one IS Fleetwood Mac, and that one is carrying the other. It seems some people can only build up one member by tearing the other down. I think both soar on their own merits, which admittedly are different but both are necessary in their own ways.

I am ecstatic that BN chose to once again join Fleetwood Mac, and find the idea of ditching them (as if!) to "move forward" with others who are probably less talented (who plays guitar better than Lindsey Buckingham?!) appalling. But I realize that's all subjective.

Wow, I really wrote a book! But I thought I would chine in with my $200 ;)

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Well Stevie is the voice of FM because it is so unique and she has my favorite out of all there voices, but as far as Studio albums go at least Christine's voice is the purest and sweetest of the voices. And I still stand by my opinon that today at least, Lindsey is not a great singer. Have you listened to some of the live downloads from this tour? He is just screaming if you ask me. And I never knew Christine had so much trouble singing live.... The live concert videos I have seen show her in top form, at least.

By the same token, we could say that Stevie isn't a great singer. She warbled and screamed her way through the RAL tour, seemed like she was singing through a tin can on the Timespace tour, and croaked her way through the TISL tour.

My advice would be to search out more bootlegs from various tours. They have all had their off-tours. Don't just judge a singer by a few downloads. Bootlegs aren't necessarily representative of someone's ability. Christine sounded quite flat and monotone through many tours herself.

And no one is the voice of FM.

[David]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
That's an interesting aside you toss in there. Stevie's career was "at its heights" after The Dance because of The Dance. I think Johnny probably meant the days of "Bella Donna" & "The Wild Heart." The mild success she had with "Shangri-La" was nothing compared with those heady days of the early 1980s. And even during those days, Stevie for the most part always talked about how cool it was to be a part of a great rock band, & how she preferred it to doing her solo tours. She was always one to respond strongly to the glamor of the situation, & for her being in Fleetwood Mac meant -- as she said a lot -- riding in to a big outdoor concert in a helicopter, like the US Festival, or jetsetting from America to Europe & back with Fleetwood Mac & its entourage.

She ate it up, & she probably still does.

[dissention]

Nancy, that was the best post in this long thread. Let's all give her a round of applause, folks! :D

:wavey:

[David]

Originally posted by dissention
My advice would be to search out more bootlegs from various tours. They have all had their off-tours. Don't just judge a singer by a few downloads. Bootlegs aren't necessarily representative of someone's ability. Christine sounded quite flat and monotone through many tours herself. I think all three of those singers have had great vocal moments onstage & rotten vocal moments onstage over the years. Here's my list of both that everyone's probably familiar with:

Great Lindsey Vocal Moment:
"Monday Morning," Birmingham, Aug. 1980

Rotten Lindsey Vocal Moment:
"Go Your Own Way," Memphis, Oct. 1982

Great Christine Vocal Moment:
"The Smile I Live For," Los Angeles, June 1984

Rotten Christine Vocal Moment:
"Oh Daddy," St. Louis, Nov. 1979

Great Stevie Vocal Moment:
"How Still My Love," Los Angeles, Oct. 1983

Rotten Stevie Vocal Moment:
"Talk to Me," Mountain View, Aug. 1991

[dontlookdown]

please ...get over yourself.

there was nothing rude about what lindsey said in that interview.
he has always been honest about the music and most of us are ready to admit that Chris's performances on The Dance and that tour were pretty lackluster. it was obvious that she was bored and lacked energy throughout the the tour.

i love Christine and her music but she hadn't done anything interesting since the title track from Behind The Mask.
Stevie and Lindsey still had the energy and interest so they kept on going.

i love what's happened to the band and i love the new album.

i just wish they would lose the tired stale set list and become a real touring rock band again...

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by David
I think Johnny probably meant the days of "Bella Donna" & "The Wild Heart." The mild success she had with "Shangri-La" was nothing compared with those heady days of the early 1980s. And even during those days, Stevie for the most part always talked about how cool it was to be a part of a great rock band, & how she preferred it to doing her solo tours.You beat me to responding, David, but yes, the "heights" that I was referring to, were the days of 'Bella Donna' and 'The Wild Heart.' When I'm also sure that not just a few people were telling Stevie she didn't need Fleetwood Mac anymore, and to just quit altogether.

She wasn't perfect in those days, and I'm not trying to make her out to be a saint or a martyr, but for whatever it's worth, she did stay with Fleetwood Mac, when she very easily could have bolted. Especially given the tense nature of her relationship with Lindsey.
Why bother going thru the stress of butting heads with someone, if your heart isn't in being there?

As for her renewed success after 'The Dance'... I think she was in the process of rebuilding, and probably would have been able to eventually erase her tarnished image, but 'The Dance' most certainly helped to kick-start that.
And the timing definitely worked out to her benefit, since she was at the end of her contract with Modern, and the boxed-set fulfilled that. So she had the one-two punch of releasing a collection that reminded people of how great her music has been, and the chance to go out on tour and show people that she was still rocking. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I truly believe today's Mac exists primarily because Lindsey wanted back in. If he hadn't returned, Stevie would have stayed away too. So no Mac. I'd have to agree. She's said in recent years that she probably should have left when he did in 1987, because it just didn't feel the same to her without him, so I imagine the same would hold true today.

I think she said, "we came in together, and we should have left together."

I never took those comments to be disparaging of Billy or Rick... after all, she worked with Billy before he joined, and she had Rick in her solo band a couple years after they both left FM.
I think it was just a matter of her missing the chemistry that her & Lindsey had.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
And SYW was a flop. Certainly not a flop on the scale that Thrown Down and SYHA will flop, but it was a flop. Peacekeeper was riding high on the adult contemp. charts for a lot longer than a couple of weeks and it was the only new single so far to hit the Hot 100 chart on Billboard, quite the feat for a new Mac song.I still have to argue with that statement. "Say You Will" peaked in the Top 20 on the Adult Contemporary charts... "Peacekeeper" charted just a handful of positions higher, in the early part of the year, when competition from other high profile acts is historically less.

Also, "Peacekeeper" managed to peak at #80 on the Hot 100 Singles chart, because of the combination of airplay and sales of the digital single... which was greatly pushed by Warner Bros. and the official FM site.
It also benefitted from timely performances on The Today Show and The Tonight Show, as well as a video in rotation on VH1.

Again, I'm not saying that "Peacekeeper" wasn't deserving of its success, but there were a lot of promotional factors that helped it achieve those chart positions. And to dismiss "Say You Will" as an outright flop, is a little short-sighted.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I still have to argue with that statement. "Say You Will" peaked in the Top 20 on the Adult Contemporary charts... "Peacekeeper" charted just a handful of positions higher, in the early part of the year, when competition from other high profile acts is historically less.

Also, "Peacekeeper" managed to peak at #80 on the Hot 100 Singles chart, because of the combination of airplay and sales of the digital single... which was greatly pushed by Warner Bros. and the official FM site.
It also benefitted from timely performances on The Today Show and The Tonight Show, as well as a video in rotation on VH1.

Again, I'm not saying that "Peacekeeper" wasn't deserving of its success, but there were a lot of promotional factors that helped it achieve those chart positions. And to dismiss "Say You Will" as an outright flop, is a little short-sighted.

I agree... I seldom listen to the radio, but heard Say You Will a lot in my area. A lot more then I heard Peacekeeper at least.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You beat me to responding, David, but yes, the "heights" that I was referring to, were the days of 'Bella Donna' and 'The Wild Heart.' When I'm also sure that not just a few people were telling Stevie she didn't need Fleetwood Mac anymore, and to just quit altogether.

She wasn't perfect in those days, and I'm not trying to make her out to be a saint or a martyr, but for whatever it's worth, she did stay with Fleetwood Mac, when she very easily could have bolted. Especially given the tense nature of her relationship with Lindsey.
Why bother going thru the stress of butting heads with someone, if your heart isn't in being there?

As for her renewed success after 'The Dance'... I think she was in the process of rebuilding, and probably would have been able to eventually erase her tarnished image, but 'The Dance' most certainly helped to kick-start that.
And the timing definitely worked out to her benefit, since she was at the end of her contract with Modern, and the boxed-set fulfilled that. So she had the one-two punch of releasing a collection that reminded people of how great her music has been, and the chance to go out on tour and show people that she was still rocking. :)

How bad "tarnished" was her image by the early nineties. I was not aware of Stevie until The Dance came out, so I never experienced seeing Stevie in a bad light. So, what exactly happened? Was she just teased or did it get ugly?

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dontlookdown
please ...get over yourself.

there was nothing rude about what lindsey said in that interview.
he has always been honest about the music and most of us are ready to admit that Chris's performances on The Dance and that tour were pretty lackluster. it was obvious that she was bored and lacked energy throughout the the tour.

i love Christine and her music but she hadn't done anything interesting since the title track from Behind The Mask.
Stevie and Lindsey still had the energy and interest so they kept on going.

i love what's happened to the band and i love the new album.

i just wish they would lose the tired stale set list and become a real touring rock band again...

I don't need to get over myself, I am just standing up for Christine. If I was Christine and I read that article I would be very hurt. Maybe I'm just sensative.

And I love the new album too and their rockier image. I just don't think there is any need to be borderline insulting in an interview Christine most likely read.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
[QUOTE]Originally posted by diamondsnake
I really don't beleive this is Lindsey's group because when it ...most people are going to the concerts to see Stevie and most people are buying the album to hear Stevie, as most critics have said in different articles.


Uh, dude, you're going to have to show us these articles in which "most critics" are saying this. From what I've seen, it's been pretty much 50/50 in terms of the critics' preference for Lindsey or Stevie.



I didn't say that most critics of the concerts are saying they enjoyed Stevie more. You are right, it is about 50/50, however most critics mention that the audience is clearly there to see Stevie which is true because when the average Joe thinks of FM they think of Stevie.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
How bad "tarnished" was her image by the early nineties. I was not aware of Stevie until The Dance came out, so I never experienced seeing Stevie in a bad light. So, what exactly happened? Was she just teased or did it get ugly? During her Klonopin addiction, Stevie's performances grew lethargic and she gained weight. Her album sales also diminished for a variety of reasons.
Some feel that the material was of a lesser quality than earlier in her career, and others feel it was simply a matter of yet another popular 1970s and 1980s singer, who became "uncool" in the grunge and rap dominated '90s (which can be a pretty damaging thing in the terminally hip world of contemporary music).

I'm sure both factors had something to do with it (although I dislike that so many of Stevie's "latter-day" songs are dismissed out of hand, simply because fans feel more nostalgic towards the earlier music).

At any rate, there was never any kind of major scandal or anything like that... she just became "uncool," and her live performances less engaging.

[diamondsnake]

[i]
Lastly, Diamondsnake, there is no such thing as the "voice" of FM. If you truly believe Stevie is that, you simply don't know enough about the history of the band. There is no "voice." There is a "sound," which changed over the years. As I see it, FM has had three major "sound" stages: Peter Green, Bob Welch and Lindsey. And the band exists today because of Lindsey. [/B]

Just to make things clear, I was not the one that originally posted that Stevie is the voice of Fleetwood Mac...

Also, the band exists today because of Stevie and Lindsey. Not just Lindsey. Stevie joined FM again and then the record company magically became intrested in FM which goes to show that without Stevie there would be no Mac today. But then again, without Lindsey initially starting the whole thing, she never would have joined so it is really just a big cycle!

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Just to make things clear, I was not the one that originally posted that Stevie is the voice of Fleetwood Mac...

Also, the band exists today because of Stevie and Lindsey. Not just Lindsey. Stevie joined FM again and then the record company magically became intrested in FM which goes to show that without Stevie there would be no Mac today. But then again, without Lindsey initially starting the whole thing, she never would have joined so it is really just a big cycle!

Oh God. I just wrote that and the second I hit the submit button realized that I am starting to sound like Lindsey and his precious cycles. This is scary...

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
That's exactly it: he chose to turn it into a Mac record, just as he did with TITN. We can debate it all we want, but no one twisted Lindsey's arm and said "You MUST turn this into a Mac record!!" He had a variety of options available, such as releasing it independently (lord knows he has the cash to do so and it isn't that expensive). However, he chose to turn it into a group effort for whatever reason, be it for the money or the creative aspects. I suspect both.

And SYW was a flop. Certainly not a flop on the scale that Thrown Down and SYHA will flop, but it was a flop. Peacekeeper was riding high on the adult contemp. charts for a lot longer than a couple of weeks and it was the only new single so far to hit the Hot 100 chart on Billboard, quite the feat for a new Mac song.

Like I said, her backing vocals weren't THAT good that her contributions made it the hit it is.

First of all, even though no one twisted his arm, it was either turn it into a FM project or sit at home and have only him and a few thousand fans listen to it, purchased via his personal website!

And I still Say that Say You Will was not a flop, not for me at least. And it really doesn't matter, I like Say You Will much better then Peacekeeper, so perhaps it is not fair for me to judge. But SYW had no promotion and still did fairly good in adult contemp.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
During her Klonopin addiction, Stevie's performances grew lethargic and she gained weight. Her album sales also diminished for a variety of reasons.
Some feel that the material was of a lesser quality than earlier in her career, and others feel it was simply a matter of yet another popular 1970s and 1980s singer, who became "uncool" in the grunge and rap dominated '90s (which can be a pretty damaging thing in the terminally hip world of contemporary music).

I'm sure both factors had something to do with it (although I dislike that so many of Stevie's "latter-day" songs are dismissed out of hand, simply because fans feel more nostalgic towards the earlier music).

At any rate, there was never any kind of major scandal or anything like that... she just became "uncool," and her live performances less engaging.

Well I must say that I really enjoy some of her stuff from the late 80s and early nineties. Other Side of the Mirror is an absolute masterpeice if you ask me! And I loved her single for The Chain, Paper Doll. I also really enjoyed her stuff on Behind the Mask and many songs off Street Angel.

[jeffs]

I've been reading this post from the onset and I just want to add that the poster has taken Lindsey's quotes totally out of context and it is a little irresponsible to call him rude in the title of the post - nothing more nothing less. Chris left the band plain and simple and though his comments aren't earth shatteringly complementary, they are not terrible eiter, especially in light of the fact that they are out of their original context.

[face of glass]

I’m not going to participate into the main topic of this thread because I haven’t the time. But I do agree with what especially Johnny Stew and Sodascouts have said.

This bit is what rubs me the wrong way at this moment:

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
They can go around saying they've been "pushing envelopes" all they want on SYW but I'm sorry I disagree and I've read many a SYW review goon about how "80's" the album sounds so I can't be alone in my thinking of the album as though "good", being a retread.

I’ve read this too. I’d like to know what the reviewers are especially referring to. The tone colours can’t be it, since they are modernistic. Is it certain specific details then, like the “Big Love” recycling in “Miranda” and “Destiny Rules”, or the fact that “Running Through The Garden” originates from the ‘80s, or the percussive guitar in “Everybody Finds Out”? Other than that I can’t find any real reason for the claim.

But no, I don’t believe they’ve really been “pushing the envelope” that much. I’ve stated this before and I state this again; most songs on the album can be traced back to an earlier prototype. “What’s The World Coming To” still follows the formula of “Second Hand News” and “Monday Morning”, “Thrown Down” and “Destiny Rules” are extensions of “Gypsy”, “Say You Will” still sounds like a Christine song, no matter what, “Murrow” still gets some of its inspiration from “I’m So Afraid”, etc. But that’s to be expected by now. I don’t think rock’n’roll has really been doing anything radically new for a good 20-25 years. Fleetwood Mac, in particular, never were a revolutionary force in the development of it. You could say that they were during the Peter Green years, but even then there were contemporaries. Yes, Led Zeppelin did use the approach of “Oh Well” for “Black Dog”, but that’s about it.

Of course it comes down to whether you like SYW that much or not. I personally think that while there are things that are traceable to the history of the band, they have been able to make a lot of them seem fresh again. That’s where Lindsey shines and has always shone. He may not have been progressing in leaps and bounds, but there’s always a hint at something unprecedented, like “Red Rover”. The good artists these days aren’t necessarily trying to be all weird, experimental and inaccessible (because making music like that can be way too easy; instead they’re expanding on the past and getting their inspiration from there.

I mean, I don’t think that the new band members on BTM or Time were adding anything significant to the history of rock and roll. You may want fresh blood into the band, so that the band would change in a more obvious, more radical way. But it won’t work for everyone. During the current line-up I haven’t felt the need for changes, if we’re speaking of studio recordings, because I still think Buckingham and Nicks have something to offer.

If we’re speaking of live performances, then it’s a different matter. But if Mick and John are satisfied with their roles as merely accompanists, then there’s nothing we can do. And yes, the less they display the drama in public the better, at least for my mental health. ;)

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
First of all, even though no one twisted his arm, it was either turn it into a FM project or sit at home and have only him and a few thousand fans listen to it, purchased via his personal website!

Not necessarily.

Let's not forget Aimee Mann or Cyndi Lauper. Neither have record contracts and both release music under their own independent label. Yet, when they release music, it hits the shelves at Best Buy's, Circuit City's, and FYEs. Don't underestimate artists just because they don't have albums coming out under the Warner Bros. stamp of approval. Granted, they may not sell in the millions and have little to no promotion, but word of mouth spreads and they have gold albums in no time.

I promise you that Stevie will have one more somewhat-commercial album and then she'll get the brush-off just like Lindsey did. Shangri-La was a fluke (due in part to VH1) and after the first week, it sank like a stone. We can only hope that she'll consider her own label once her stock diminishes, but somehow I doubt it.

No matter what anyone says though, this thread will continue to seem like an advertisement for someones ridiculous vendetta against Lindsey and his personal feelings.

[diamondsnake]

I think that most of these posts all come down to, who is the most important in the band?

Obviously there is no clear answer to that, but I would say that most of us would agree that no one person dominates the band completely. Even though I still think Lindsey beleives he is in complete control.....

And Lindsey fans, please don't take offense, I am just joking!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Shangri-La was a fluke (due in part to VH1) and after the first week, it sank like a stone.You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too! :laugh:

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified gold(*).

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially. :)


(* = I had inadvertently typed "platinum," so I've corrected it.)

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too! :laugh:

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified platinum.

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially. :)

And - Everyday is still in rotation on airplanes ( I heard it a few months ago on Delta) and I see the video sometimes at places like Circuit City or Sears although I am unsure what station it is - perhaps VH-1. Also, the dance remix of POTU is STILL in heavy rotation at dance parties and in the clubs. I heard it twice in Oct. when I was in New Orleans partying my rear off :laugh:

In sum and without somewhat of a fluke like Cher's "Believe," I think FM will probably never have a top ten single or a multi-platinum CD of new material. Yet, they still pack em in in the live performances. So, hopefully, that will allow them to continue to make music in the style they like to make it.

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by face of glass
I mean, I don’t think that the new band members on BTM or Time were adding anything significant to the history of rock and roll. You may want fresh blood into the band, so that the band would change in a more obvious, more radical way. But it won’t work for everyone.

Originally posted by trackaghost
The Time and Behind The Mask line-ups mean little to me. You may call me closed minded, but I have a wide taste in music and it just so happens that Bekka and Billy Burnette don't fit in there! Why should I like their music just because they were at one time part of the Mac.

I'm sorry to go off topic again here but I just want it to be known by those that don't know: Billy, Rick & Bekka were not ALLOWED to be themselves in FM. Therefore, it's hard to make your mark in a band when the material you bring to the band is either not used or changed to make it sound like what Mick, John and the relevant marketing people seem to think is "the sound FM fans know and want" (well, hey, thanks for deciding what "everybody" wants guys) and the cherry on top of it all was that those records weren't promoted at all anyways. Yep, REAL fair, all the way around huh?

I'm not saying that they were ever going to change rock and roll as we know it but I don't think it's fair to judge these guys on the few recordings they made during the short time they were in the band as they are generally not good representations of what they usually sound like (IMO).

I can see why many would feel they "didn't fit in FM" but that's because Mick was trying to force them to be something they aren't and that made it worse than if he had just let them be themselves. Of course Dave Mason was allowed to do what he wanted, Dave Walker was not, and so on... I just don't think this "separate rules for separate people" stuff was right, and this of course includes BN but again that's JMHO.

I do respect your opinions though even if some of you still wish to think these things about the "little people" after knowing about this personality stifiling now though OK? :)

John

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too! :laugh:

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified platinum.

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially. :)

Everyday was a huge hit to say the least! I didn't hardly know who Stevie Nicks was back in 2001 and I loved the song. I was so excited when I recognized it on the TISL record when I got into the mac in 2002.

And there is no way that Stevie's success was a fluke! That is insane. We are talking about the woman that has been titled the Queen of Rock and Roll!

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Not necessarily.

Let's not forget Aimee Mann or Cyndi Lauper. Neither have record contracts and both release music under their own independent label. Yet, when they release music, it hits the shelves at Best Buy's, Circuit City's, and FYEs. Don't underestimate artists just because they don't have albums coming out under the Warner Bros. stamp of approval. Granted, they may not sell in the millions and have little to no promotion, but word of mouth spreads and they have gold albums in no time.

I promise you that Stevie will have one more somewhat-commercial album and then she'll get the brush-off just like Lindsey did. Shangri-La was a fluke (due in part to VH1) and after the first week, it sank like a stone. We can only hope that she'll consider her own label once her stock diminishes, but somehow I doubt it.

No matter what anyone says though, this thread will continue to seem like an advertisement for someones ridiculous vendetta against Lindsey and his personal feelings.

Not to be rude, but do you even like Stevie that much? Everything I have ever read that you post is so negative about her, which is weird because you must like her given the fact that she is on your icon. What's the deal? Is this like a love/hate relationship?

[David]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Not to be rude, but do you even like Stevie that much? Everything I have ever read that you post is so negative about her, which is weird because you must like her given the fact that she is on your icon. What's the deal? Is this like a love/hate relationship? By your own admission, you didn't know who Stevie Nicks was in 2001 -- two years ago. You're brand new to the fan fold. Just kick back & soak it all in. What you see with dissention, you're going to see with a lot of fans. Longtimers tend to have a lot of varying opinions about Stevie & about Fleetwood Mac, opinions that sometimes seem ambiguous or contradictory to newbies. It would be fair of you to give your own admiration for FM some time to evolve. You may even find yourself ten years from now loving some things about Stevie & really disliking other things about her -- or you may even evolve into a rabid Lindsey Buckingham fan. At this point, you can have no idea how your devotion to FM will evolve. None of us are exactly the same five, ten or twenty years later.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I didn't say that most critics of the concerts are saying they enjoyed Stevie more. You are right, it is about 50/50, however most critics mention that the audience is clearly there to see Stevie which is true because when the average Joe thinks of FM they think of Stevie.

Uh, dude, you're still going to have to show us these articles. See, I've read about a lot of awe at Lindsey's showmanship, while I've also read a lot of comments about Stevie's corpse-like approach to many of the performances. Even judging from postings on the Internet, it seems even some of the folks who go to the concerts for Stevie come away with newfound respect for Lindsey and many say he was more interesting in concert.

I could be wrong, so if you'd like to produce this evidence of which you speak...

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I'm sure both factors had something to do with it (although I dislike that so many of Stevie's "latter-day" songs are dismissed out of hand, simply because fans feel more nostalgic towards the earlier music).

First off, Johnny, I did misread your earlier comment about "career heights." I stand corrected.

Second, dude, this is ground we've covered already. The quality of Bella Donna and The Wild Heart is far superior to Rock a Little, when she could barely sing, The Other Side of the Mirror, ditto, and Street Angel, in which most of the songs simply weren't good. I won't make comments on Shangri La because I haven't heard it enough and a lot of people seem to think it's good. Now, I can tell by reading the lyrics from that album that it still isn't as good as the stuff she wrote earlier, and perhaps that is a bit of nostalgia creeping in. But when it comes to Rock a Little, Street Angel and even those three new songs that appeared on the Timespace compilation, the stuff was mostly bad and it has nothing to do with nostalgia.

In 1985 I was till a huge Stevie fan, yet I generally still didn't care for Rock a Little. I actually like a few songs in Rock a Little and Mirror, but I just can't listen to them much because of the voice. Interestingly, Blue Eyes was my favorite song off Mirror, and I didn't realize till years later that it was a Johnny Cash song. Now I have the Man in Black's version and I prefer that.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Other Side of the Mirror is an absolute masterpeice if you ask me!

Uh?


I loved her single for The Chain, Paper Doll. I also really enjoyed her stuff on Behind the Mask and many songs off Street Angel.

double uh?

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Not to be rude, but do you even like Stevie that much? Everything I have ever read that you post is so negative about her, which is weird because you must like her given the fact that she is on your icon. What's the deal? Is this like a love/hate relationship?

I've been a fan for almost twenty years, I think that I'm entitled to express my opinions about the Mac and Mama Nicks. It makes me no less of a fan.

I fail to see how my commenting on the business aspect of their music makes me less of a fan. That's a tad ludicrous. When I make statements about record sales and corporate labels, how does that make me not a Stevie fan? In no way does it comment on the music. But, David said it much better than I have, so I'll leave it at that.

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Everyday was a huge hit to say the least!

Every Day did alright, but it certainly wasn't a huge hit at all. It should never have been released as the first single, but that's a different thread.

Originally posted by johnnystew
You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too!

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified gold(*).

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially.

Well, Johnny, if we were talking WISYA, I'd be in big trouble! :laugh:

Let me explain what I meant by fluke, though:

There was barely any promotion for TISL outside of the VH1 promotion. That was something new that hadn't been done before and it opened a lot of doors for the album. If it hadn't been on VH1 like that, I doubt that it would have done as well as it did.

It was INCREDIBLY successful for an artist like Stevie. INCREDIBLY successful. However, I just believe that without the VH1 promotion, it wouldn't have done too hot. That's a fluke, IMO. (But the success of the Planets remix was not because of Stevie, it was because of Tracy Young, but we've already wrestled over that before!!)

I just don't see her solo projects having much more longevity after the next one. Especially with the current state of music.

But then again...

Stores like Borders and Barnes and Noble are now shying away from heavily promoting artists like Beyonce, 50 Cent, and Hootchie Spears in their stores. Instead, they are taking established and adult artists like Babs, the Mac, Springsteen, and Bette Midler and pushing them. Instead of putting hip artists on the main shelves, they're stocking it with the good stuff and pushing the crap into the alphabetized racks. The tactic has worked wonders, though. Midler's album is her biggest hit in YEARS. Her last album debuted at #49 and her new one is in the top twenty and has been doing amazingly well. There was no promotion except for what they're doing in these stores.

So, I think the way an album sells by older artists is due to how it's marketed.

Get what I mean? :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Uh?

double uh?

:laugh:

I second that sentiment.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
And - Everyday is still in rotation on airplanes ( I heard it a few months ago on Delta) and I see the video sometimes at places like Circuit City or Sears although I am unsure what station it is - perhaps VH-1. Also, the dance remix of POTU is STILL in heavy rotation at dance parties and in the clubs. I heard it twice in Oct. when I was in New Orleans partying my rear off :laugh:

Circuit City is a BIG Mac fan. :laugh:

The one in my area has an audio visual room where the speakers are as big as my ass and the TV touches the ceiling. It has glass doors and padded walls, but anyways...They BLAST the Dance DVD and the Red Rocks DVD everytime I'm in there. They must have radar for Mac fans.

[CarneVaca]

Dissention's logic is by and large (no speaker/ass pun intended) impeccable!

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Dissention's logic is by and large (no speaker/ass pun intended) impeccable!

Ditto.

:D

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Circuit City is a BIG Mac fan. :laugh:

The one in my area has an audio visual room where the speakers are as big as my ass and the TV touches the ceiling. It has glass doors and padded walls, but anyways...They BLAST the Dance DVD and the Red Rocks DVD every time I'm in there. They must have radar for Mac fans.

Yes, they are.

In fact and truth be known, I frequently find myself going to 20 or so Circuit Cities in the Metro Atlanta area and, while The Dance is playing on 500 or more televisions, I distribute self-made dossiers (on parchment and bound with lace and lavendar and scented with rare oils) on the magnificence of the lovely La Nicks and the sardonic Buckingham. If people disagree, I hit them over the head with the dossier or dossiers - whatever it takes to make them see the light. Yes, I know it's a little strange, but I figure if I and others like me can just do this enough, one of the next five or so FM records of new material will sell over 1.5 million copies AND the catalogue whoring will sell even more as well. I hear they are releasing the Very Best of the Time era line up next Fall (including six Rumors era songs by Stevie); so, I have lots of work to do.

I tried to distribute the 500 or so dossiers I had in my carry on while flying on Delta last month, but when I assaulted more than one person trying to get their headphones on and turn the dial to channel 7 (all in three minutes time and people are SO slow to react when SHE is playing), those nice young officers carted me away to that awfully cold place and put me in that jacket that makes me hug myself :cool:

[CarneVaca]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Strand, I know a good shrink. Well, a friend of mine knows one...

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
In fact and truth be known, I frequently find myself going to 20 or so Circuit Cities in the Metro Atlanta area and, while The Dance is playing on 500 or more televisions, I distribute self-made dossiers (on parchment and bound with lace and lavendar and scented with rare oils) on the magnificence of the lovely La Nicks and the sardonic Buckingham. If people disagree, I hit them over the head with the dossier or dossiers - whatever it takes to make them see the light. Yes, I know it's a little strange, but I figure if I and others like me can just do this enough, one of the next five or so FM records of new material will sell over 1.5 million copies AND the catalogue whoring will sell even more as well. I hear they are releasing the Very Best of the Time era line up next Fall (including six Rumors era songs by Stevie); so, I have lots of work to do.

I tried to distribute the 500 or so dossiers I had in my carry on while flying on Delta last month, but when I assaulted more than one person trying to get their headphones on and turn the dial to channel 7 (all in three minutes time and people are SO slow to react when SHE is playing), those nice young officers carted me away to that awfully cold place and put me in that jacket that makes me hug myself :cool:

That's strange, I thought I was the only one who did that. However, before I try to sell folks on the magnificence of the lovely Mama Nicks, I try to stash the few copies of Street Angel that they have lying around. Just a tip, it works wonders for me! ;)

Thanks for the laugh; it was hysterical! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Second, dude, this is ground we've covered already. The quality of Bella Donna and The Wild Heart is far superior to Rock a Little, when she could barely sing, The Other Side of the Mirror, ditto, and Street Angel, in which most of the songs simply weren't good. I won't make comments on Shangri La because I haven't heard it enough and a lot of people seem to think it's good.I guess I'm an exception to the rule (but then, I'm an exception to a lot of rules), because even though I was familiar with, and loved, earlier hits like "Gypsy" and "Edge Of Seventeen" when I was younger, it wasn't until 'Rock A Little' that I stood up and took notice of Stevie Nicks.
It was THAT era in her voice that really captured my fancy (even to this day, I wish we'd hear some of that "I Sing For The Things" or "When I See You Again" raspiness again), and THAT era in her songwriting that really blew me away, and caused me to put down the albums I was listening to by other artists.

Like you said, we've been down this road before, and we're never going to see eye-to-eye here, but again, I really think it's totally short-sighted for people to dismiss the "mid-era" or "latter-day" era of Stevie's career because they want everything to be a "Landslide" or a "Gypsy."
Just as you wouldn't want Lindsey to still be writing "Monday Morning" or "Lola" some thirty years later, I also want Stevie's writing to evolve.

And I know you've argued that it hasn't evolved, but once again, I disagree with that statement too.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to what speaks to people.

For me, and not just a few others, we are moved, and affected, and entertained by Stevie's post-1984 work. I'm not going to say that every song is an example of utter-brilliance, but I've discussed "batting-averages" before, and Stevie has one helluva batting-average.

So if diamondsnake feels that 'The Other Side Of The Mirror' is a masterpiece, good for him! As a newer fan, it means he's not married to thinking that Stevie's best work was all 20+ years ago, and it's unfair for anyone to cynically question his opinion.

As someone who's defended "Oh Diane," "I Must Go," and "Family Man," I'd think you'd understand what it's like to appreciate songs that other people look down their noses at. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
There was barely any promotion for TISL outside of the VH1 promotion. That was something new that hadn't been done before and it opened a lot of doors for the album. If it hadn't been on VH1 like that, I doubt that it would have done as well as it did.

It was INCREDIBLY successful for an artist like Stevie. INCREDIBLY successful. However, I just believe that without the VH1 promotion, it wouldn't have done too hot. That's a fluke, IMO. (But the success of the Planets remix was not because of Stevie, it was because of Tracy Young, but we've already wrestled over that before!!)All the VH1 promotion did, was make people aware that Stevie had a new album out. If people weren't interested, they wouldn't have gone out and bought it.

VH1 most definitely heightened awareness for 'TISL,' and that's that.
Certainly the album may not have done as well without that promotion... after all, who's going to buy an album if they don't know it exists??

As far as Tracy Young's connection to "Planets Of The Universe" making it a #1 on the Club Play charts and the Maxi-Singles sales charts... nah, I don't think so.
I have to seriously wonder how many people rushed out to buy the maxi-single simply because a remixer whose name isn't all that well-known outside of the industry, had worked on the track.
Especially when a lot of people I talked to, told me it was the Illicit mix that they heard most often.

I also don't think that "Planets Of The Universe's" Grammy nomination had anything to do with Ms. Young. :)

By the way, I saw commercials for Bette Midler's new album several times, and I still see them. I've also seen print ads for it... so it's not going entirely promotionless.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
It was THAT era in her voice that really captured my fancy (even to this day, I wish we'd hear some of that "I Sing For The Things" or "When I See You Again" raspiness again), and THAT era in her songwriting that really blew me away

Yes, alright. My take on this is that since you’re a big, big fan, you’re likely to overrate some things. And also, because you became a fan during RAL/TITN, you’re most likely to have your fondest memories of Stevie from that period. I personally think that songs like “I Sing For The Things” and “When I See You Again” are for fans only; it is very unlikely to find someone unfamiliar with Stevie’s work falling in love with her through these two, for instance. Yes, it’s still Stevie writing them, but the songs feel very pro forma to me. But I do like them both, I’m a fan also. Although I certainly wouldn’t think of “WISYA” as her ultimate masterpiece, I’m not that nuts. ;)

Of course you could claim the opposite; you could say that the times had changed and Stevie's writing wasn't given the attention it deserved. And you might as well be right.

Ah well, my head is completely up Lindsey’s rear end anyway. Keep that in mind when you read what I just wrote. :)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
As someone who's defended "Oh Diane," "I Must Go," and "Family Man," I'd think you'd understand what it's like to appreciate songs that other people look down their noses at. :)

I never put those up as examples of masterpieces. Oh Diane is cool, especially since it is the name of Mrs. Carne herself. It's a decent enough tune.

I question anyone suggesting Mirror is a masterpiece, especially someone who has used the tact of a hammer on this thread. (I should know about that.)

Johnny, you're OK, misguided as you are... :laugh: :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by face of glass
My take on this is that since you’re a big, big fan, you’re likely to overrate some things. And also, because you became a fan during RAL/TITN, you’re most likely to have your fondest memories of Stevie from that period. I personally think that songs like “I Sing For The Things” and “When I See You Again” are for fans only; it is very unlikely to find someone unfamiliar with Stevie’s work falling in love with her through these two, for instance.I see your point... when you're a fan of something, there's always a danger of going a bit overboard in your praise of it (after all, a "fan" IS a fanatic!).
But I didn't like "I Sing For The Things" and "When I See You Again" because I was a fan, they are part of what MADE me a fan.

There's a sheer vulnerability and rawness in those songs that I've talked about before, that really blew me away (and still does).
That type of song is never going to speak to everyone, especially since most people enjoy music they can keep somewhat of an emotional distance from (which is why you hear so many people say it's the instrumentation and music that's more important to them than the lyrics).

Not to belittle "Landslide," but this is why I've often said I actually prefer "When I See You Again" to "Landslide."
Just about anyone can like "Landslide"... it's reflective without being too deep, and it's simple. "When I See You Again" is very esoteric with its stark, harrowing and confessional lyrics and vocal. It's not just a pretty little song that you can sing along with... and that's what struck me most about Stevie's writing when I started to become a fan. And that's what continues to impress me to this day. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I never put those up as examples of masterpieces. Oh Diane is cool, especially since it is the name of Mrs. Carne herself. It's a decent enough tune.True enough... although you have discussed what you feel is their inherent brilliance, which is why I mentioned them as songs that you appreciate, that many other don't. :)
Originally posted by CarneVaca
I question anyone suggesting Mirror is a masterpiece, especially someone who has used the tact of a hammer on this thread. (I should know about that.)I think diamondsnake will become more tactful as he ages and matures... I just don't want to see someone crushing his (or anyone's) enthusiasm for the music.
Mac fans have a hard enough time finding people that "get" our love of this band and its members, it's a shame for us to knock each other down too. :)
Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny, you're OK, misguided as you are... :laugh: :laugh: Not misguided... enlightened. ;) :cool:

Really though, you and I discovered a while back that... ironically... we're much better off just discussing politics! The same is probably true for Dissention and I! :laugh:

[Alison]

It has been really interesting reading all these posts.
I don't know how many of you were around when Fleetwood Mac were at their peek.
They were so big it would put Britney Spears to shame.
Fleetwood Mac has had the great fame and big sale numbers that no one today can match, or very few at least.
They ruled most of the seventies and part of the eighties.
That is greatness.
How many of todays stars will be around in twenty or even 10 years from now.
For a band to still sell records and have some air play at this stage of the game is nothiing but remarkable.
So The mac is still popular, sells out concerts. We should never be disappointed with the success they are injoying now.
Say you will was not a flop.
Rock on Fleetwood Mac

[Tango]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew

I think diamondsnake will become more tactful as he ages and matures... I just don't want to see someone crushing his (or anyone's) enthusiasm for the music.


I agree with you Johnny. I think the ability to talk on The Ledge, or any forum, is a bit of a landmine, and one has to sometimes learn to walk carefully. Everyone has their pet peeves/issues.

I was looking over some of diamondsnakes subject lines:
Stevie's a laughing stock?
Stevie Nicks is gross?
Stevie's weight

Sometimes I feel my own hackles rising, just reading them. Yet, the virtue of his subject lines is that they get people riled up and talking. The nice thing to see is that there haven't been any blood baths as we sometimes see from time to time on message boards.

We all have to be patient with one another. I haven't seen any "trolling." Just an honest attempt to open up subjects and learn about this amazing band. (my take on it all, anyhow)

[face of glass]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
That type of song is never going to speak to everyone, especially since most people enjoy music they can keep somewhat of an emotional distance from (which is why you hear so many people say it's the instrumentation and music that's more important to them than the lyrics).

Yes, I understand that. Hey, I say that myself too, but I like to think it's because English isn't a natural language for me. That's why I'm not as moved by Stevie's lyrics as you are and that's why I listen to music the most, at least when I'm listening to music with non-Finnish lyrics. And I've stated before that no rock and roll artist has ever equalled the lyrics of the great writers of the past. IMHO, of course.

Not to belittle "Landslide," but this is why I've often said I actually prefer "When I See You Again" to "Landslide."
Just about anyone can like "Landslide"... it's reflective without being too deep, and it's simple. "When I See You Again" is very esoteric with its stark, harrowing and confessional lyrics and vocal. It's not just a pretty little song that you can sing along with...

That's a good point, but I also think it's a point that only a fan can make. I think it's fans themselves that put the depth into a particular song, not the writer. It's the fans who are likely to read into these things too much and interpret them as they want to. Sometimes they might end up with interpretations that are far away from what the writer intended; just look at BuckinghamNicks.net. This is why Lindsey keeps his commentaries on his songs very vague; I'm sure he doesn't want to shatter people's illusions.
The fact is that I'm more likely to respect a song that appeals to a larger audience than a song that seems to reflect only the writer's inner world, a world that is inaccessible everyone else but the writer and the fans. I personally think it's more difficult to do a song that reaches a wide audience than to write something that incomprehensible and esoteric. Not that I think "When I See You Again" is like that. But I still think it's "Landslide" pt. 2, without any particular freshness in it. Hey, it's easy to follow your artistic impulses, it's difficult to make your work appealing to other people without resorting to cheap stunts (both musical and non-musical).

In the end, I hear about the same amount of depth in "WISYA" and "Landslide". That's just my take, because I'm not the biggest Stevie fan in the world. But if someone says here that if a particular song is a commercial success and therefore is less deep than an obscure work, then I'd like to think that that person is either a snob or a biased fan. I've heard that argument so many times; in forms like "Pink Floyd are deeper than the Beatles" and "progressive rock is deeper than any other music". And I think it's a similar argument that Johnny Stew just brought up.

As I stated before, I think that fun, lightweight pieces can be deep too, because I believe that laughing can be as deep as crying. So one day I will start a thread on the deep meaning behind "Teen Beat" and "Family Man". ;)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by face of glass
As I stated before, I think that fun, lightweight pieces can be deep too, because I believe that laughing can be as deep as crying. So one day I will start a thread on the deep meaning behind "Teen Beat" and "Family Man". ;) Excellent post, Gaius.
And I agree, "lightweight" music is just as important as the "heavy" stuff.
Granted, I'm not a fan of "dumb" music... but certainly life has to have some level of levity to it, or it's just unbearable.

Which is why I don't like to bash the writing of any of the members of this band, past or present. And I do actually quite enjoy songs like "Oh Diane" or "Empire State."

It's no secret that Stevie's songs have the greatest amount of appeal to me, but I've always felt that there's a tremendous amount of value in what they have all contributed to the band (though I am unfortunately guilty of once dismissing Christine's songs as simply "pop ditties," as I tried to make my point in a thread that was bashing Stevie's writing).
And I don't own Lindsey and Christine's solo work just because they're members of Fleetwood Mac... I own it because I like it.

At the end of the day, "great music" is defined by what entertains us, and what captures our imaginations and our hearts. :)

[face of glass]

Alright, I'll drink to what you wrote. :) I don't think anyone will change his/her feelings towards a particular song after a discussion like this, but if we learn to understand each other better, then the Ledge will become an even more comfortable place for all of us.

[Patti]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
At the end of the day, "great music" is defined by what entertains us, and what captures our imaginations and our hearts. :)

Well said, Johnny S., well said!

Patti

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
All the VH1 promotion did, was make people aware that Stevie had a new album out. If people weren't interested, they wouldn't have gone out and bought it.

VH1 most definitely heightened awareness for 'TISL,' and that's that.
Certainly the album may not have done as well without that promotion... after all, who's going to buy an album if they don't know it exists??

As far as Tracy Young's connection to "Planets Of The Universe" making it a #1 on the Club Play charts and the Maxi-Singles sales charts... nah, I don't think so.
I have to seriously wonder how many people rushed out to buy the maxi-single simply because a remixer whose name isn't all that well-known outside of the industry, had worked on the track.
Especially when a lot of people I talked to, told me it was the Illicit mix that they heard most often.

I also don't think that "Planets Of The Universe's" Grammy nomination had anything to do with Ms. Young. :)

By the way, I saw commercials for Bette Midler's new album several times, and I still see them. I've also seen print ads for it... so it's not going entirely promotionless.

Fair enough, but that just proves my point: the VH1 promotion influenced heavily influenced the sale of the album. Plain and simple.

We can argue it all we want, but Stevie Nicks did not make the POTU remix the hit that it was. It has nothing to do with the Maxi Single because that wasn't released until months after the dance mix hit the clubs. AND the dance mix that was released originally to the clubs was *only* the Tracy Young Club Mix (it was sent to clubs on vinyl by Warners accompanied by the extended album version). They may be playing the Illicit mixes now, but they certainly weren't playing them before July 3, 2001, and it hit #1 before that date. It was just a great remix buy a hot remixer and became a surpise hit. Many of the people who bought the single were hardcore fans like us. The rest heard the mix in the club, loved it, and probably bought it. And regardless of how well known Tracy Young is outside of the industry, it doesn't matter. The playlists for most clubs are calculated by what mixer is hot and what one isn't.

I don't think the Grammy nomination had anything to do with Tracy Young *or* the success of the remix on the charts; it had to do with the album version of the song. The remixes never factored into it.

As for Bette's new album, there may be a few print ads here and there and yes, a few commercials to help holiday sales, but if you saw the amount of money that Sony has invested in promoting the album...you would be shocked. Zilch. Also, her last album in 2000 had MONDO promotion on TV and print (it seemed to be *everywhere*) but did very poorly. Yet for some reason, her new album has peanuts for publicity but is her biggest record in years. I agree with industry analysts about why: because of new tactics by retailers. Go figure.

[CarneVaca]

Too often we find fault with the labels for not promoting a certain album. I am guilty of that as well.

But I truly believe that at this point in the game, it isn't about the promotion. If SYW doesn't sell more than, say, a couple million (by the way, my prediction was 2 to 4 million) it won't be because of lack of promotion. I truly believe the public at large will never get enthralled with the strange sounds of Red Rover, Come or even Stevie's more mature voice. I don't mean this as a criticism of the band at all. I give them, and especially Lindsey, a lot of credit for wanting to make music that is still creative, but the public doesn't want that.

Give them Dreams, Go Your Own Way, Landslide and Don't Stop, and they'll go home happy.

If you ask me, the singles releases are not much more than exercises in futility. A band at the level of Fleetwood Mac gets one single with moderate radio play, and that was Peacekeeper.

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
But I truly believe that at this point in the game, it isn't about the promotion. If SYW doesn't sell more than, say, a couple million (by the way, my prediction was 2 to 4 million) it won't be because of lack of promotion. I truly believe the public at large will never get enthralled with the strange sounds of Red Rover, Come or even Stevie's more mature voice. I don't mean this as a criticism of the band at all. I give them, and especially Lindsey, a lot of credit for wanting to make music that is still creative, but the public doesn't want that.

Great minds think alike, Carne. We are just too wise for our own good. :laugh:

SYW was never going to sell two million and I laughed when some of us were predicting that it would back in April. Just check out the reviews from average fans on Amazon.com and you'll get a good idea of how the general masses think of the album. Lindsey is weird, Stevie is spacey, it's overproduced, and it's too damn long. Oh, and they miss Christine.

It's unrealistic to expect it to be a multi-platinum seller.

[face of glass]

Off topic, yes, but I still have to answer this one.

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Billy, Rick & Bekka were not ALLOWED to be themselves in FM. Therefore, it's hard to make your mark in a band when the material you bring to the band is either not used or changed to make it sound like what Mick, John and the relevant marketing people seem to think is "the sound FM fans know and want"

Well, I could claim that Mick, John and the marketing people knew that the styles of the new band members wouldn't be immediately accepted by the public, so they had to take the songs that sounded more FM-like. But I wouldn't be believing in the claim myself, so I won't do it.

those records weren't promoted at all anyways. Yep, REAL fair, all the way around huh?

Didn't BTM go to #1 in the UK? Was it just a by-product of the success of Tango In The Night, or was there real promotion behind it?
As for Time, not touring when the album was released was a poor move on behalf of the band or management or both.

I don't think it's fair to judge these guys on the few recordings they made during the short time they were in the band as they are generally not good representations of what they usually sound like (IMO).

Of the BTM b-sides I've only heard "Intuition" and while I don't think it's too earth-shattering, it's still a good song and could have been a hit, if it had received the proper treatment. So I do agree with you, if only for that one song.

I can see why many would feel they "didn't fit in FM" but that's because Mick was trying to force them to be something they aren't and that made it worse than if he had just let them be themselves.

I understand the point. That's what you and ChiliD have been hammering into the ground, that the new members weren't given enough room, that Mick wanted to sabotage the other line-ups so that he could get Lindsey and Stevie back into the band. Things may not be as simplistic as that, but there's a grain of truth in your remarks anyway.

I listened to BTM today and yes, it feels like a band record, more so than TITN or SYW. So I could understand how a musician like ChiliD would prefer it to those other two that I mentioned. I can also understand how, for someone with a knowledge of the history of the band, a new line-up might seem the only way to shake the things up a little. I don't feel the need for it myself, although it would be an interesting prospect to see a LB solo album, a SN solo album and a FM album not featuring either of them to be released in the near future.

In the end, I don't think Mick and John have the desire to return to the days of yore, when the rhythm section had its equal share in the spotlight along with the other members. FM as a democratic band, with each member getting its share while playing live, existed from 1967 to 1982 (since I haven't heard the Time tour bootlegs, I can't speak of those). After that the instrumental jams pretty much stopped and the whole thing became that derided Broadway show. I personally don't believe that studio music made by a democratic band is necessarily better than music made by a band where there's an obvious figurehead/dictator/whatever. But in live performances it's a different matter. The things need to be shaken up, sooner or later.

[hayley]

Originally posted by dissention
As for Bette's new album, there may be a few print ads here and there and yes, a few commercials to help holiday sales, but if you saw the amount of money that Sony has invested in promoting the album...you would be shocked. Zilch. Also, her last album in 2000 had MONDO promotion on TV and print (it seemed to be *everywhere*) but did very poorly. Yet for some reason, her new album has peanuts for publicity but is her biggest record in years. I agree with industry analysts about why: because of new tactics by retailers. Go figure.

FYI, Dissention, those "new tactics by retailers" exist because of the "MONDO" amounts of money that we're (Sony) PAYING for them. The money being spent at the big chains where Bette will do the best is staggering (and I know, because I have spreadsheet after spreadsheet on my desktop detailing the dirty facts on it).

Sony is not spending as much less on the Bette record compared to 2000 as you think. The money is simply being allocated in a more intelligent and logical manner, and it's being reflected in the visibility and sales of the record.

It drives me nuts when people complain about the fact that FM hasn't made any videos for Say You Will. They haven't for a reason- it's not an effective marketing tool for their demographic, and it's something that they would end up paying for out of their own pockets (the label doesn't absorb that cost in 95% of contracts w/ artists)... why spend your money wastefully on something that won't effectively reach or influence your audience? It's all about allocating your resources intelligently and focusing on the methods that will work for YOU and YOUR audience.

As for this whole thread... there are some excellent thoughts in here. Shout-out to JStew, who as usually has inspired me to go back to some stuff that I haven't soaked in for ages. But I have no patience with the continued arguments/dialogue about power struggles etc. in the band. Maybe it's reading these same arguments month after month in the last six and a half years of being part of the fan community... it just seems so pointless anymore. No one will ever agree.

-Hayley

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by face of glass

I listened to BTM today and yes, it feels like a band record, more so than TITN or SYW. So I could understand how a musician like ChiliD would prefer it to those other two that I mentioned.

In that sense I like it better, too; it's just that I don't like the songs as much. On SYW where the songs are better, I'd like to hear Stevie on more of Lindsey's songs & Lindsey on Stevie's songs without his voice altered.

- Jake

[dissention]

Originally posted by hayley
FYI, Dissention, those "new tactics by retailers" exist because of the "MONDO" amounts of money that we're (Sony) PAYING for them. The money being spent at the big chains where Bette will do the best is staggering (and I know, because I have spreadsheet after spreadsheet on my desktop detailing the dirty facts on it).

Sony is not spending as much less on the Bette record compared to 2000 as you think. The money is simply being allocated in a more intelligent and logical manner, and it's being reflected in the visibility and sales of the record.

It drives me nuts when people complain about the fact that FM hasn't made any videos for Say You Will. They haven't for a reason- it's not an effective marketing tool for their demographic, and it's something that they would end up paying for out of their own pockets (the label doesn't absorb that cost in 95% of contracts w/ artists)... why spend your money wastefully on something that won't effectively reach or influence your audience? It's all about allocating your resources intelligently and ffocusing on the methods that will work for YOU and YOUR audience.

Well, then I think that Warners needs to use the same tactics (or "manners of allocation") as Sony is.

The video thing is obvious. VH1 and MTV don't play vids like they used to, they barely do at all. Their allotted time for videos certainly won't include time for a Mac video to be rotated on a regular basis. But the reason that the Mac won't make a full-blown video is because they *know* that it doesn't work and they don't want to waste the money. People around here just moan about it because they want to see a video instead of logically thinking about why one isn't being made.

PS: I can understand the argument about Sony paying the big chains, but that still doesn't explain why the locally owned music stores are using the same appraoch. They're doing it because they're seeing the results and want in on the action. :nod:

[Johnny Stew]

Maybe I'm wrong (but who's to say what's right), but I'm one of the people who've griped about the lack of videos for this album, only because I feel it helps raise awareness that the "product" is on the market.

And here's a good recent example... I've liked Michelle Branch's song "Are You Happy Now" for months, from seeing the video multiple times on VH1, but it's only now, within the last 5 days, that I've finally heard it on the radio.

Radio stations just seem so slow in regards to picking up new tracks. It seems they'd rather play other stuff to death, before giving anything else a chance.
And I don't follow Michelle Branch, so without the airplay on VH1, I wouldn't have even known the song existed.

So I've been disappointed by the lack of videos from 'SYW' (outside of the "Peacekeeper" clip), because I figure if VH1 had a new Mac video to play, they'd play it... though I realize the album has done very well, and none of us really have anything to complain about. :)

[SmthngOfADreamr]

I don't know about other places, but here in New York, you don't have to rely on only MTV or VH1 to play videos. (And the sad truth is they don't play them that often, except at the witchin' hour.) If you're a video freak, there are about 10 other cable channels that do play them, so believe me, if there had been a video, it would have been seen.

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by face of glass
Well, I could claim that Mick, John and the marketing people knew that the styles of the new band members wouldn't be immediately accepted by the public, so they had to take the songs that sounded more FM-like. But I wouldn't be believing in the claim myself, so I won't do it.

I'm sorry to sound cynical but as we know from today's mechanical pop, it doesn't really matter what the contents of a record are (in this instance, whether the BTM songs "sounded like FM" or not) because the marketing people could still promote it all the same in all of their clever ways and shove it down people's throats until they got the sales they wanted out of it. So I believe it was wrong to "make them do FM sounding songs" since it was all down to the marketing but maybe that's just me.

Originally posted by face of glass
Didn't BTM go to #1 in the UK? Was it just a by-product of the success of Tango In The Night, or was there real promotion behind it? As for Time, not touring when the album was released was a poor move on behalf of the band or management or both..

Yes it did. Unfortunately, most American fans seem to just acknowledge US sales etc. so things like this do generally get overlooked by US fans, so I'm glad you mention that. Last I heard, BTM sold 80,000 in the US and 1,200,000 outside of the US.

From what I understand, there was no major BTM promotion, I'd have to say (if I'm being honest) that it was a by product of the TITN success.

Originally posted by face of glass
Of the BTM b-sides I've only heard "Intuition" and while I don't think it's too earth-shattering, it's still a good song and could have been a hit, if it had received the proper treatment. So I do agree with you, if only for that one song.

I'll have to take your word for it on those outtakes as I've never heard them myself. Knowing "Intuition" from RV's "King of hearts" album and trying to picture the BTM lineup cutting it with Ladanyi and co. I can sense an improvement in the track though as you obviously heard.

If you've only heard that one, then at least this theory is batting 1,000 for you so far, so there's hope for the other outtakes proving this case for you yet. :)

Originally posted by face of glass
Mick wanted to sabotage the other line-ups so that he could get Lindsey and Stevie back into the band. Things may not be as simplistic as that, but there's a grain of truth in your remarks anyway.

Actually, this is something Bob Welch said at his last Penguin Q & A and I don't know if I buy that really as there's no way Mick could've known they would come back at that time (if he had done that), on top of the fact that Welch was apparently embroiled in a lawsuit with messars Fleetwood and McVie (2X) at that time so I don't know where Welch is getting his information from as it's doubtful they were talking much during this peroid if such things were going on then, but heck, they've magically kissed and made up lately so who knows?

I will admit to the "drilling the "they were not given a chance" sentences into everyone's heads around here" accusations though, and I'm damn proud of it too! :)

Originally posted by face of glass
I listened to BTM today and yes, it feels like a band record, more so than TITN or SYW. So I could understand how a musician like ChiliD would prefer it to those other two that I mentioned. I can also understand how, for someone with a knowledge of the history of the band, a new line-up might seem the only way to shake the things up a little. I don't feel the need for it myself, although it would be an interesting prospect to see a LB solo album, a SN solo album and a FM album not featuring either of them to be released in the near future.

I'm glad we agree on most of this. I think if a band is A BAND and it's members are open to new ideas and change when staleness sets in, with no dictatorships etc. then it wouldn't HAVE to come to such actions as "line up changes to shake things up" but whatever, JMHO again I guess. :)

I'd sure love what you say to happen about a new FM (with new members) and a solo LB & solo SN album (as I think it tends to get overlooked that I still do like BN but I just would've liked it better if they had not rejoined the band and stayed solo and have FM just carry on with new members if the "Time" line up was not to continue but I know, I can hear Mick Jagger singing now: "You can't always get what you want" :) ) but those days are gone and even if it happened NOW, to me, historically speaking, it's a case of "too little too late" on Mick's part to have it be a band again with no politics all of the sudden (again, if he did that) but that's NEVER gonna happen. I will say this though, I dare ya Mick! :)

Originally posted by face of glass
In the end, I don't think Mick and John have the desire to return to the days of yore, when the rhythm section had its equal share in the spotlight along with the other members. FM as a democratic band, with each member getting its share while playing live, existed from 1967 to 1982 (since I haven't heard the Time tour bootlegs, I can't speak of those). After that the instrumental jams pretty much stopped and the whole thing became that derided Broadway show. I personally don't believe that studio music made by a democratic band is necessarily better than music made by a band where there's an obvious figurehead/dictator/whatever. But in live performances it's a different matter. The things need to be shaken up, sooner or later.

Um, I don't ever really recall Mick and John "sharing the spotlight" in the "days or yore". They have always been in the shadows (aside from Mick's hammy drum solo bits) and then the others were the front line. Maybe it just seems they were more upfront then because there was less @$$ kissing going on then (by Mick) and the "others" were not dictators, at least by choice (aside from maybe Peter Green, but even then, it was different then because Peter WAS considered the "leader" until he left and Mick decided to assume that title at that time but then Mick started puckering up in 1997 and even though many still refer to him as the leader... well, I won't reword. Besides, if PG was a dictator, then he sure was a generous dictator in the sense that he gave DK half of TPO, he named the band after MF & JM (the PG'sFM tag was done against his will from what I understand), he wanted Jeremy in the band to take some of the lead as he didn't want the sole spotlight (unlike others we know) and, well, I'm sure ChiliD will be around soon to rattle off some more soon... I hope so anyways, I need some damn backing here man! :)

I do agree with you on the Broadway show thing though.

I'm torn on the studio stuff because it's really down to opinion if it's "better" or not whether band's records are made under a democracy or a dictatorship and up until "Tusk", it probably was fresh and not TOO much of a dictatorship (not to the extent that it became anyways but I won't go there again). I mean, OK, Lindsey (as the "leader" if you wish) shook it up with "Tusk" but that was more because HE wanted to shake it up. I wonder how he would've felt if SN or CM (or heck even MF & JM) wanted to do something different with their material (in regards to SN & CM)? I agree with you that things should be "shaken up soon" (when you spoke of the live performances) but again, that's NEVER gonna happen. I dare ya Mick! Oops, you've heard that speech already. :)

Originally posted by darklinensuit
In that sense I like it better, too; it's just that I don't like the songs as much

AH! So this "released songs that Mick & co. obviously wanted for BTM not being as good as those that didn't make it by the other members" theory is growing stronger after all! :)

John

[CarneVaca]

By the way, I believe there was a lot of promotion for this album: three tracks played on TV in advance of the release, all the Internet hoopla, a handful of TV appearances, countless radio stops and more print stories than you could shake a stick at. To say this album wasn't promoted is to ignore reality.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Tango

I was looking over some of diamondsnakes subject lines:
Stevie's a laughing stock?
Stevie Nicks is gross?
Stevie's weight



Well I don't agree with any of the things that I put in the headlines... I just needed a way for people to come into my threads and respond. And I am a new fan, so as I read about things like people at one point thinking Stevie was a laughing stock, then I like to see what other people's thoughts are on the subject.

I really hope that no one is offended by what I am writing. Sometimes I can be melodramatic and say things like "Lindsey hates Christine!" it is just my personality...

So I am sorry that I am not as "tactful" as others.

Why does everyone thinks that TOSOTM is not deserving of praise? I think it is Stevie's best. There is so much pain and magic in that record. I love it!

And Dissention, I understand that you are a big fan and all, I didn't really mean that you weren't a fan... I've just never heard you be positive about Stevie on this board. But then again I am never positive about Lindsey and I still respect him as an artist, even though I don't really respect him as a person...

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
By the way, I believe there was a lot of promotion for this album: three tracks played on TV in advance of the release, all the Internet hoopla, a handful of TV appearances, countless radio stops and more print stories than you could shake a stick at. To say this album wasn't promoted is to ignore reality.

I agree. I think SYW (the record) was heavily promoted to its target audience. In fact, I remember reading some interview where Stevie, perhaps in reference to TISL, said, we learned from The Dance that heavy initial promotion (e.g. The MTV concert) and a full court press on doing press is the way to go. That is what she did with TISL. Think of all of the interviews to radio stations around the country she gave when that record was released (and she flew to most of them to make a personal appearance); plus the whole VH-1 thing was genius.

FM did the same and more when SYW was released (interviews (some prime time), the AOL thing (which is similar to Stevie's VH-1 thing), etc.). When BTM came out, I remember reading more than one print interview. When SA and TOSOTM were released, Stevie did those radio interviews that usually play at night wherein the artist comments of the record, etc. (perhaod with Jim Ladd?). LB also did some press for OOTC. So, I think FM promotes their stuff. I just think they (FM, the record company, agents, management, etc. ) realize that barring some fluke like Cher's "Believe" (which I am convinced is why they still release singles, which are a fairly and relatively inexpensive gamble to get a "Believe"), FM and band and artists like it will not sell millions of records of new material anymore. I mean the likes of Sting, Dolly Parton, La Streisand, The Eagles (who have sold more records than The Mac), Celine Dion (albeit to a less extent), and so on. Yet, these artist release new material that sells about the same or less than SWY. But, when they go on tour, they are far more successful. Such is the way of the world :cool:

[macfan 57]

Yes it did. Unfortunately, most American fans seem to just acknowledge US sales etc. so things like this do generally get overlooked by US fans, so I'm glad you mention that. Last I heard, BTM sold 80,000 in the US and 1,200,000 outside of the US.

John [/B][/QUOTE]

John, I agree with much of what you've been saying and I always enjoy reading your posts. But, BTM has sold 800,000 albums in the U.S. not 80,000, close to what SYW will end up selling. I'm sure you didn't mean to shortchange BTM sales. :)

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Why does everyone thinks that TOSOTM is not deserving of praise? I think it is Stevie's best. There is so much pain and magic in that record. I love it!

I think people think TOTOTM is bad for a mnyriad of reasons. First, Stevie disappointed many longtime fans with her stuff on TITN. These same long time fans perhaps were still a little disappointed with her performaces on the RAL tour, where she gave what could best be described, and even she has alluded to this, as energetic but drugged out performances wherein she was coked up out of her mind and often would just sort of bark out the words instead of singing them with the backup singers. Then, the heavy synth sound of TOSOTM was so different than anything she had ever done as was the writing - there were no three part harmonies so apparent in Bella Donna, Wild Heart, and to a lesser extent RAL. It was a gamble for her to do this and it failed in many peoples' eyes, which again, was her third such failure in many peoples' eyes. Morevoer, please do not flame me for this, but she was beginning to gain weight and people did not react favorably to that as she had by her own admission put herself out there for years as the image of a sexy waif/street urchin, which she clearly no longer was on the surface. Finally, she was out of her mind on drugs (Klonopin/Valium/whatever) at the TOSOTM shows I saw and did not dance or move. In fact, at one of the shows, people around me commented on how they thought she had fallen asleep. This is why I think so many people, esp. long time fans, understandably do not look favorably at the period.

Personally, while it is not my favorite record of hers, I really like TOSTOM. I think it has some good stuff.

My $0.02

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
By the way, I believe there was a lot of promotion for this album: three tracks played on TV in advance of the release, all the Internet hoopla, a handful of TV appearances, countless radio stops and more print stories than you could shake a stick at. To say this album wasn't promoted is to ignore reality.

Carne, just for clarity, you ARE referring to SYW (and NOT BTM) right?

UPDATE: Just saw those above posts and they took you to mean SYW as well so I guess it was a safe enough assumption on my part then so nevermind. :)

John

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by macfan 57
John, I agree with much of what you've been saying and I always enjoy reading your posts. But, BTM has sold 800,000 albums in the U.S. not 80,000, close to what SYW will end up selling. I'm sure you didn't mean to shortchange BTM sales. :)

Oops, typo, sorry about that, yeah, I meant 800,000 US sales, and thanks macfan57. :)

John

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Why does everyone thinks that TOSOTM is not deserving of praise? I think it is Stevie's best. There is so much pain and magic in that record. I love it!

And Dissention, I understand that you are a big fan and all, I didn't really mean that you weren't a fan... I've just never heard you be positive about Stevie on this board. But then again I am never positive about Lindsey and I still respect him as an artist, even though I don't really respect him as a person...

Then you haven't read a lot of my posts. Like I said, by no means does my commenting on any business aspect or the like mean that I am speaking about her music. Keep that in mind before stating I'm not complimentary towards her. :)

But now, I will talk about the music...OSOTM to be exact.

The whole album is a mess. Not a mess on the scale of Street Angel (which is absolutely horrid to these ears...and Carne's!), but it was a mess. It gets off to a great start with Rooms On Fire and Long Way To Go (one of her most insipid but sooooooo addictive), but then Two Kinds of Love rolls around and spoils everything. Everything about that song is awful: vocals from both leads, asinine lyrics, and stock music. It's just bland as hell. Ooh My Love is alright, not a favorite, but I love it when it reaches the two minute mark; the last two minutes are fab-o for some reason. I can't bear to listen to Ghosts, it's painful. Whole Lotta Trouble is just as awful. What the hell was she thinking with that song??? Fire Burning is mediocre at best. I hate the music and the lyrics are just *stupid.* Cry Wolf has a good vocal in the chorus, but it just isn't a strong song. Alice is good because it has all the elements of Stevie and I'm a HUGE Alice In Wonderland fanatic. Juliet is one of my favorites. Doing the Best That I Can has awful production, but I love the intenseness of it. Blue Eyes sounds like carnie music, darlin'.

She chose Rupert Hine just because he said he'd do a bang-up job on Doing the Best That I Can and he ended up ruining the whole album. There is only one rocker to speak of, the rest are mid-temp adult contemp garbage and cheesy ballads. I mean, even Stevie's dad thinks it's awful.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
But now, I will talk about the music...OSOTM to be exact....
There is only one rocker to speak of, the rest are mid-temp adult contemp garbage and cheesy ballads. I mean, even Stevie's dad thinks it's awful. I don't remember ever reading that Stevie's dad thought it was awful... but if he did, Mr. Nicks is entitled to his opinion (even when he's wrong ;) ).

I actually pulled 'OSotM' out last night, as I haven't listened to it in its entirety in a long time.
So I put the headphones on, sat back, and listened.

I pretty much have the same opinion of it that I always did... love Stevie's voice (while missing the raspiness that she had on 'RAL' and 'Tango'), love the lyrics... less than thrilled with the production.
I always think of the Rolling Stone review that stated, "For every effective force like (Mike) Campbell, there's someone like producer-keyboardist Rupert Hine, whose trademark is lazy synth pop, and Kenny G, that purveyor of saxophone-Muzak sleeping pills."

Hine's production worked on some tracks... "Alice," "Rooms On Fire," "Ooh My Love," and "Doing The Best That I Can" in particular. But others never quite gel.
The album version of "Whole Lotta Trouble" isn't the greatest, but Tom Lord-Alge's remix (found on 'Timespace' and 'Enchanted') definitely improves the song by leaps and bounds.

I've always felt that a mix of too many keyboards, synths and programmed drums, makes for a "cold" atmosphere in a song, and that's really my biggest complaint about 'Mirror,' is that many of the songs don't have a warmth to them.
But lyrically and vocally, it's great... in my opinion. :D

And hey, at least Stevie tried something a little different for the sound and feel of the album, and while they didn't succeed 100% of the time, it's still highly enjoyable.

[Johnny Stew]

Oh, and Christopher (diamondsnake), just go right on loving 'OSotM' as much as you do.

If we all held the same opinion about things, this world would be a very boring place indeed.
And like I said, "great music" is defined by the individual. :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I don't remember ever reading that Stevie's dad thought it was awful... but if he did, Mr. Nicks is entitled to his opinion (even when he's wrong ;) ).

I've always felt that a mix of too many keyboards, synths and programmed drums, makes for a "cold" atmosphere in a song, and that's really my biggest complaint about 'Mirror,' is that many of the songs don't have a warmth to them.
But lyrically and vocally, it's great... in my opinion. :D


At the AHI '96 private concert, Stevie introduced Rooms On Fire by saying that it was off of the album that her father told her was her worst. :)

I've always believed that the reason for the mix of OSOTM was to make Stevie's voice sound much fuller because in general, it is *very* thin on the album. When I bought my first DVD player, I had hooked it up to my stereo instead of using TV speakers. The player had all kinds of effects that you could do to the audio tracks and I isolated it so that you could only hear vocals, bass, and some guitar; nothing else. It was strong on a few songs, but I thought it was very thin personally. I wish I knew how to record it onto CD, I'd love to have the stripped down version of the album.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
At the AHI '96 private concert, Stevie introduced Rooms On Fire by saying that it was off of the album that her father told her was her worst. :) Ouch! Wonder what Stevie thought of that! :laugh:
Apparently she had a sense of humour about it though, if she was willing to comment about it in front of an audience.Originally posted by dissention
When I bought my first DVD player, I had hooked it up to my stereo instead of using TV speakers. The player had all kinds of effects that you could do to the audio tracks and I isolated it so that you could only hear vocals, bass, and some guitar; nothing else. I wish I knew how to record it onto CD, I'd love to have the stripped down version of the album. Wow, I'd love to hear that!

I've often though some enterprising fan could probably do a good job mixing both 'Mirror' and 'Street Angel' in more agreeable ways.
The former is too airy overall, and the latter is too muddy.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I've often though some enterprising fan could probably do a good job mixing both 'Mirror' and 'Street Angel' in more agreeable ways.
The former is too airy overall, and the latter is too muddy.

Johnny--

Sound the alarms!!! We agree on something!!!

:laugh: :wavey:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Wow, I'd love to hear that!

If anyone can tell me to record it onto my computer or something from my DVD player, I'd be happy to give it a shot because I've always wanted it on a seperate CD.

Then maybe I'd mount my attack on Street Angel...:laugh:

[face of glass]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Actually, this is something Bob Welch said at his last Penguin Q & A and I don't know if I buy that really as there's no way Mick could've known they would come back at that time (if he had done that)…

I don’t believe in such ”conspiracy theories”; it was just something I thought ChiliD hinted at in another thread. I don’t know if he believes in it either.

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Um, I don't ever really recall Mick and John "sharing the spotlight" in the "days or yore". They have always been in the shadows (aside from Mick's hammy drum solo bits) and then the others were the front line.

Well, I didn’t really mean that. Yes, there was more jamming in the past, even if it was just limited to “I’m So Afraid”/”World Turning”/”Not That Funny”. Of course, it wasn’t as much as in the past, but it still was there.
But what I really meant was that the band seemed to be a democracy before. In the studio Mick’s and John’s contributions were integral to the way the songs were shaped: “The Chain” wouldn’t be what it is without the crucial bass drum kicks in the beginning, or the bass riff that leads to the outro. Even still on the Mirage tour I can feel the musicians feeding off on each other, willing to see what happens next, even though there’s a certain framework they’re operating in. And it should be noted that it was Lindsey’s songs they were using for launchpads, Stevie only had “Rhiannon” in that area, Chris had “Don’t Stop” (although I don’t know if you’ve heard a version of it with blues jamming, I’m aware that you’re not into bootlegs).
However, after the Mirage tour Lindsey probably lost interest in jamming. He decided to get rid of the spontaneous feeling that his studio work at the time had and became “the studio nerd” we all know. Fifteen years later he steps on the stage with FM again, but this time there are lots of guest musicians.
I don’t think we can solely blame Lindsey on this. Mick has lots of percussion help on stage these days and John just follows Mick wherever he goes, like you speculated in another thread. Stevie added the backing vocalists for the “Shaking The Cage” tour. Lindsey brought a part of his guitar army on stage with FM. So it’s obvious they’re not trying to be like in the old days anymore. But it’s not a real band for me then.

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Lindsey (as the "leader" if you wish) shook it up with "Tusk" but that was more because HE wanted to shake it up. I wonder how he would've felt if SN or CM (or heck even MF & JM) wanted to do something different with their material (in regards to SN & CM)?

I guess they’ve all recognized the value of his work retroactively. At the time of the recording it might have been different though. Tusk, no matter how anti-democratic it may seem, still proved the world that the Rumours line-up couldn’t be easily pinpointed down. If there had been a Rumours II, or a White Album III, ad infinitum, then I believe the band would have become a nostalgia act studiowise. It is one now, as live performers, but not as a studio act and I will insist on that. I guess it’s mainly because Lindsey’s personality speaks to me more than that of any other member. I realize that a recording by a democratic band is probably of more value to you. I can’t feel that Mick and John were adding anything really significant to SYW; their playing is still valuable and recognizable but it seems like the tracks have the drums and the bass only because a rock and roll song has to have a rhythm section.

It has been stated by some reviewers that SYW sounds like two solo albums rolled into one, that it doesn’t sound like a band work. Some have speculated that it was because of Christine’s absence. But I guess I’m reaching the same point in cynicism that you are, John; I believe that at this point there’s no going back into the democracy and the (dis)harmony of the past. As of now, I’m still pleased with the situation in every area except the live performances. That’s where I’d still love to see Green/Kirwan/Welch/Buckingham/Vito jamming with Mick and John.

Overall, I guess I'm repeating myself a lot here. I should be toning down on the subject, especially since there's not that much we're disagreeing on, if at all. :)

[dissention]

Off topic, but does anyone know how someone made the center channel mixes for SYW? It's the same thing I did with my DVD player for OSOTM and I'd love to try it. Is there a software I could download? Thanks! :D

[dissention]

Okay, I'm downloading a program that claims to be able to isolate vocals and add effects and stuff. If this works, I'll be happier than a pig in ****. I've always wanted to do something funky with the Space Needle demo! :)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Okay, I'm downloading a program that claims to be able to isolate vocals and add effects and stuff. If this works, I'll be happier than a pig in ****. I've always wanted to do something funky with the Space Needle demo! :)

I love Space Needle! Does that mean we are agreeing on something?

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I love Space Needle! Does that mean we are agreeing on something?

Anyway, I love how down to earth she is on that song. Unstead of being all mysterious and hinting around about drugs she just belts out "I remember being high all the time" if I am even interpreting it right...

If I'm not mistaken, I believe she says "I remember being HOT all the time."

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr
If I'm not mistaken, I believe she says "I remember being HOT all the time."

*

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr
If I'm not mistaken, I believe she says "I remember being HOT all the time."

Yup, I stand corrected. I just listened to it. Now the song take on a whole new meaning. Anyone have any idea what she is talking about in it?

[wetcamelfood]

I pretty much agree with everything you said Gaius. :)

Though ChiliD has pointed out to us the roots of the "extra musicians" (i.e. Ray Lindsey et al), when it comes to the MAJOR backing, with the recruitment of the extra musicians on the TITN tour (which LB was not on as we know) I don't "blame" LB as much on this as it may have sounded like though like you say with his guitar army in '92, he is an accomplice to a degree. :)

I also agree with you that the early BN days at least seemed more democratic, even if they weren't (I mean, though I'm not in to boots as you righty say, I heard some "Rumours" tour boots a while back where the only pre 75 song they played was "Oh well" (in other words, the rest of the songs from those shows were from either the 1975 album or "Rumours", that's it). Gee, they sure scraped those older concert faves in a hurry huh? ChiliD, what did you make of this?)

Again, though I'm not a bootleg collector, I have nothing against anyone who collects them so this "blues Don't stop" of which you speak does sound interesting, even if I'm waiting for the official release (and I know, I'm dreaming) but I'll take your word for them having done a "mini jam" on that one. I agree as well to your "LB songs as launchpads" theory, though "Sisters of the moon" from the "Mirage" video was fairly drawn out I thought, but that could just have been due to the legend of the guys having to have to stretch out the solo section on that one due to Stevie's tardyness and, eventually, Lindsey having to have to do the verse they were waiting for her to arrive and perform). :)

Yes, I do agree that Lindsey was right to shake it up and not become the nostalgia act (back then, anyways) with "Rumours 2" etc. I was just thinking off of the top of my head while typing that, that it seemed very coincidental that it was Lindsey's songs that were the most different ones on "Tusk" (i.e. showing that he was the one that wanted to do the most material changing obviously, even down to his appearance) and I was asking for opinions if, hypothetically, SN and/or CM were the ones who wanted to change their material instead on that album, how he would've reacted towards that. Would he have encouraged it (if they wanted to do this and not him)? Again, I guess we'll never really know but it's things like this I often wonder is all. So if anyone wants to chuck in a thought on that, I'm all ears. :)

We can agree to disagree respectfully on whether a band should be democratic or not. I guess I just thought that solo careers are for artists that wish to only look after their own needs and bands should be just that, but again, just my feelings, I know there are many bands that have had dominant forces that have released great recordings, some of my other favorite bands in fact, so I can relate to a degree to what you're saying. :)

I'm not sure if you read me wrong or not but I just wanted to say to be clear (yes again, sorry) that I agree with what you say about how Mick and John are on SYW but only in a mechanical way and because the bass and drums have been considered essential instruments for such musical arrangements.

I am glad that you can be more accepting of the SYW set up (as far as the non live work goes) than I am. Again this may seem harsher than I wish it to come across but yeah, I do lean towards the "2 solo albums pressed together" deal. It's debatable as to whether it's 100% due to CM's absense (as a member) as I think Mick & John being "yes men" not only to Lindsey, the producer but also to Stevie's people (Shanks and co.) is a large factor making the Fleetwood Mac name, just that, a name, printed on an album sleeve without standing for much now which is a depressing thought. Again though, it is just my thought I know. :)

As it's really just the music itself that I collect, maybe that's why I feel as strongly as I do regarding what I see as wrong in a band situation but again, that's just my feeling and I'll stop here and just agree to differ on that as I just had above. :)

We do agree again though that we'd sure love to see some jamming and spontaneity. :)

John

[Tusk57]

I agree with Lindsey's comments. I for one haven't missed Christine at all. With her out of the picture, it gives more time for Lindsey and Stevie to do their stuff onstage and on the album. Christine's songs onstage just weren't as good as the other two.