Cosar, what happened to your thread?

[glitter_fades]

Anybody know what happened to the thread started by Cosar?

[glitter_fades]

Sorry guys...I gotta come clean. I know I said I wasn't going there...but I did just go to Mick's board. I had to see if I could find out why Cosar's thread is gone, and also see who's saying Pip and Louise are lying about the JT email. Not many are jumping up to agree or disagree with the poster, so I feel nobody really believes it. Whether they say it or not, people know which party has a reason to lie. Louise has no reason to lie. As far as what happened to the thread started here about fans getting along...I didn't see anything about it there.

I also read the concerns threads, and this is the last thing I'm posting on the subject of fans getting along. Now that the original thread has disappeared, I wonder what's up with fans wanting to come here and start issues so they can complain and have them deleted later? I feel foolish now for saying this board doesn't censor people. Anybody know why it's gone?

After checking a few posts at Mick's I see fans ARE still trying to get answers there. The threads are going nowhere, but bravo to those guys for trying. I think there are some sincere people still there...why?...anyway, for whatever reason...some have made me think they may be right about one thing...complaining about the fan club may never result in any significant changes. It's a tough pill to swallow, but it's more likely than not. I don't mind saying they're probably right.

Guess what? One other thing is probably true as well. If any significant changes take place regarding the fan club, nobody there will ever thank the fans who kept the issue alive. Nobody will admit any of the "negativity had anything to do with it. Just like nobody said anything about the loud complaints bringing down the original price of the fan club. A lot of people told the complainers to keep quiet and be glad to pay whatever. I'm ok with it and even if nothing ever changes...I'm still going to speak out , maybe not as often, but whenever it's necessary.

[cosar]

Glitter,

I don’t want you or anyone else here to think this board censors people. To paraphrase the opening of a song I know you’re familiar with, “I took my thread, I took it down.” It was causing too much heartache, for me and, it seemed, for everyone else. It was making me too sad.

I have noticed in the short time I’ve been here that a lot of people just avoid the contentious threads and only post in the ones that deal with Fleetwood Mac’s music, concerts, etc. I think I’ve learned my lesson, and I plan to follow their lead.

[glitter_fades]

I can see removing your own posts...but deleting the thread? Aren't you being the censor now? It's seems like a waste of time posting to anything if the one who starts the thread can delete everyone else's posts.

Well, if it makes you feel better...whatever. I used to think you were above such things, but it seems Cour was right on target in her assessment...which is gone now.

:shrug:

[flyfirefly]

I'm not really sure (though I have seen) what happened in terms of the lying bit. The whole thread was really supposed to be more of a list...okay, so this is a concern, as is this.

However, the thread wasn't set up for opinions. We were concerned with how money was spent--there really was no need to begin accusing the Admins right away but someone jumped in and began defending them, and then I think...yeah, someone new jumped in just to say they were new which kind of screwed it up a little.

Just to be fair, I think that's the reason you may not see defense on Pip & Louise's part. It's not that there isn't one (and I really don't understand why it was brought up in the first place) but that it will start a nice debate/argument between fans and you know...that's just a waste of time, and will destroy the thread.

[tommer]

hey cosar, let me get this straight, did you just delete the "don't turn FM fans against each other" thread????
YOU MUST BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!!!!!
this is NOT how things go around here!!!!
you did not erase your own opinions there, you erased everyone who posted their opinions! once others replied, this thread is no longer YOURS, can't you see it???
i find it shameless and disgraceful!
i do not give a rat's ass if it made you "too sad", i don't care about how much of a coward you are! deleting MY valid opinions doesn't make ME sad- it makes me PISSED!!!, VERY PISSED!!!
you just damaged MY right for free speech and no excuses could justify it. these methods DO NOT belong here, this is NOT mick's chat! this is NOT our way to deal with stuff!!!
if you can't handle the heat, you probably don't belong to this kitchen! you owe an appology to each and every person who's opinion you just silenced, and if that's how you think we address serious questions here than you are terribly wrong!!!!
http://www.absolutepostcards.com/cards/cool/pissed.gif

[jwys_soapbox]

Important things don't fade away, they just disappear.

Whatever the heck I mean by that ;)

John

[BombaySapphire3]

I have not commented on this much .But as soon as I saw Mick's FM site had a pay fan club I had to laugh.Now some of the newer fans who bought into it I can sympathize with, but anyone who has closely followed this band and it's core members activities for years or decades,and who paid more than a wooden nickel to this 'fan" club shame on you !

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
I can see removing your own posts...but deleting the thread? Aren't you being the censor now? It's seems like a waste of time posting to anything if the one who starts the thread can delete everyone else's posts.

Well, if it makes you feel better...whatever. I used to think you were above such things, but it seems Cour was right on target in her assessment...which is gone now.

:shrug:
As Cosar started the thread in removing his post the whole thread disappears. Not really sure why this was necessary. I was working a night shift so I can't read the reply I was notified about!

Pip

[seeknpeace]

I feel foolish now for saying this board doesn't censor people. Anybody know why it's gone?

Cosar deleted it. The Ledge didn't. He couldn't take it is my guess...poor baby.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by tommer

these methods DO NOT belong here, this is NOT mick's chat! this is NOT our way to deal with stuff!!!

I have to say I agree with this sentiment. It is not the way things are done here. Many people had posted valued opinions in that thread and it is now gone. I'm sure various people have saved the thread ... I did not. I didn't think I would ever need to cut and paste a thread on the ledge. :(

[seeknpeace]

if you can't handle the heat, you probably don't belong to this kitchen! you owe an appology to each and every person who's opinion you just silenced, and if that's how you think we address serious questions here than you are terribly wrong!!!!

Just remember that he was called out and also that his true colors are flying. He belongs where the truth is not and where thoughts and opinions are not welcome. So, to all of you who care, remember him and how he operates when he starts a new thread. He is on my ignore list. See Ya Cosaren't:wavey:

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
Sorry guys...I gotta come clean. I know I said I wasn't going there...but I did just go to Mick's board. I had to see if I could find out why Cosar's thread is gone, and also see who's saying Pip and Louise are lying about the JT email. Not many are jumping up to agree or disagree with the poster, so I feel nobody really believes it. Whether they say it or not, people know which party has a reason to lie. Louise has no reason to lie.

Well I have to say it SERIOUSLY PISSES ME OFF that someone would suggest that Louise and I are lying about the emails from Todd. Let's see them come over here and say that. Why on earth would we make this up? We are not the devious snakes in all of this. Excuse my language but I have had no sleep and I am ****ing steaming at the moment

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by flyfirefly

Just to be fair, I think that's the reason you may not see defense on Pip & Louise's part. It's not that there isn't one (and I really don't understand why it was brought up in the first place) but that it will start a nice debate/argument between fans and you know...that's just a waste of time, and will destroy the thread.
Why should it not be brought up? I know you were looking for concerns involving the fan club - well Todd is the fan club and the mis-sent emails and bribes shows the kind of man he is. Is this the man people want to look up to as the leader of their favourite bands fan club? He should be held accountable for his actions. As Fleetwood Mac fans we deserve better. I've never said that I have anything against people who post over there but those who choose to ignore how this idiot has treated their fellow fans are certainly not on my Xmas card list!

As for the reason that people aren't defending this.... well those that would have all been banned!

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
Why should it not be brought up? I know you were looking for concerns involving the fan club - well Todd is the fan club and the mis-sent emails and bribes shows the kind of man he is. Is this the man people want to look up to as the leader of their favourite bands fan club? He should be held accountable for his actions. As Fleetwood Mac fans we deserve better. I've never said that I have anything against people who post over there but those who choose to ignore how this idiot has treated their fellow fans are certainly not on my Xmas card list!

As for the reason that people aren't defending this.... well those that would have all been banned!

Seriously pisses me off too Pip. The really rotten thing is that we cannot tell them how we feel about that over there, but, they need to know that they are only making things much much worse. Things like that only make my resolve stronger and my drive stronger to get something from someone.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by flyfirefly

but that it will start a nice debate/argument between fans and you know...that's just a waste of time, and will destroy the thread.
I'm not picking on you Flyfirefly but things are coming into my head in response to your post. ;)

If I were to go over to Mick's board right now and post what happened to the UK fan convention team at the hands of Todd it wouldn't be to start a debate or an argument. It would simply be to show Todd for what he is and to say is this the man you really want looking out for the interests of your all time favourite band. If people want to ignore it then that is up to them. I have made a fair few friends online through my love of Fleetwood Mac and I think I am fairly well known. I would NEVER treat another fan the way Todd is.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by seeknpeace
Seriously pisses me off too Pip. The really rotten thing is that we cannot tell them how we feel about that over there, but, they need to know that they are only making things much much worse. Things like that only make my resolve stronger and my drive stronger to get something from someone.
As I said before.... I'd like to see them come over here and post that. But no... it is easier to post over there to try to further lower the credibility of those of us who dare to 'speak out'

Pip

[tommer]

Originally posted by seeknpeace
Just remember that he was called out and also that his true colors are flying. He belongs where the truth is not and where thoughts and opinions are not welcome. So, to all of you who care, remember him and how he operates when he starts a new thread. He is on my ignore list. See Ya Cosaren't:wavey:
OH NO!! pleeeez don't write stuff like that! you might "cause him heartache" or "make him sad" (which we now all know is inapropriate) quick!!! edit your post before he sees it!:distress: :distress: :distress:

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by tommer
OH NO!! pleeeez don't write stuff like that! you might "cause him heartache" or "make him sad" (which we now all know is inapropriate) quick!!! edit your post before he sees it!:distress: :distress: :distress:

OMG...what was I thinking? Oh, but, listen, seriously, this will give him something to bash us about "over there" and save him some time, so, that will be a good trade off for him-whine,bash,whine,bash..Have at it dude...:eek:

[Cour]

Originally posted by cosar
Glitter,

I don’t want you or anyone else here to think this board censors people. To paraphrase the opening of a song I know you’re familiar with, “I took my thread, I took it down.” It was causing too much heartache, for me and, it seemed, for everyone else. It was making me too sad.

I have noticed in the short time I’ve been here that a lot of people just avoid the contentious threads and only post in the ones that deal with Fleetwood Mac’s music, concerts, etc. I think I’ve learned my lesson, and I plan to follow their lead.


I hope everyone had the VIOLIN music turned way up when they read this little tale of woe.


This 'man' comes over to this board on a witch hunt, that he 'thinks' he's disguised well enough to look like a peace mission, but he fooled no one because people saw his post for exactly what it was. He attacks members of this board, all the while defending and pleading the case of his friends Jackie and Trinity and how they've been so misunderstood. _ He stirs the pot here with his "contentious thread" and his nasty habit of deleting and editing his attacks.


Now he's saying that some people here "avoid the contentious threads" and he'll be doing the same. Of course he wouldn't bother to mention that HE was the one that started the "contentious thread". No no no...you wouldn't want to do that and take responsibility for what part your own actions and words played, when you can just hit the erase and delete button and THINK you've washed away everything that has gone on. Does this remind anyone of a certain 'Black Knight' and his tactics, and what started this whole mess in the Fleetwood Mac community?


Back to the story.... This does sounds exactly the way he relayed his tale of woe over on Mick's board, conveniently leaving out pesky details like he might have started things off on the wrong foot here by attacking members of this board and maybe the "contentious thread" would have gone differently if he would have been a lot less contentious and not tried to turn a whole community against some of it's members. Of course, this was all disguesed as a PEACE mission.


SO, let me see if I've got the story right..


Attack, EDIT out the attack and apologize

Attack again. EDIT it out (again) and leave the thread asking that everyone stop posting to your "contentious thread"

Attack again, this time on another board where the people you're attacking can't defend themselves

Attack again when someone responds to the attack on the board where they can post, then DELETE this latest attack (again!)

Attack again!, all the while claiming how you've been so misunderstood and you're really a "pretty smart guy" but you're now leaving the thread for good (again!).


DELETE the entire thread because people are now onto your DELETE AND EDIT tactics and you can't get rid of the quotes AND the posts where people have archived your attacks and there is no other way to hide what you've done. Make sure to paint yourself as sad, and a good guy (who always acts within the "boundaries of civility") so you're only going to join the happy posts on this message board.


DON'T try to be honest from the beginning and come to this community and say you'd like to join the board, period. Instead, try to disguise your real intentions that you'd like to HEDGE your bets because the site you've aligned yourself with has become boring and is dying a slow and painful death. Make sure to stir the pot but good with a "contentious thread", and then paint yourself as a sad, misunderstood, but "pretty smart guy".

Wouldn't this 'pretty smart guy' be shocked to learn that the entire thread has been permanently saved.



_________________________________

[Cour]

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
Well I have to say it SERIOUSLY PISSES ME OFF that someone would suggest that Louise and I are lying about the emails from Todd. Let's see them come over here and say that. Why on earth would we make this up? We are not the devious snakes in all of this. Excuse my language but I have had no sleep and I am ****ing steaming at the moment

Pip,


I'm sorry that people are saying you and Louise falsified those emails and are insinuating that you and Louise would lie about the emails and phone calls.

It's sad that when LIE AFTER LIE from Jonathan Todd has been revealed people refuse to see what is right before their eyes and instead choose to attack the messenger. I know this is little consolation to you but that has been the M.O. from the beginning. Ignore what the person is saying and focus on why they're saying it. Attack and slander the messenger and divert and cast doubt on anything they might be saying that's true.

They're still bashing and banning and deleting over there. The administrators are still ignoring the people who are doing the bashing because they're the long time members and they can abuse and mistreat anyone they like. Those special people don't have to act in a "civil" manner and their posts remain and they are not banned. Let's face it, at this point they can't afford to lose anymore people in that ghost town.

I hope you and Louise KNOW that the MAJORITY of the online Fleetwood Mac community believes you and Louise and supports and applauds your efforts to bring this to everyone's attention.

Try not to let a few ignorant spineless people get you guys down.


Remember who your friends are and we'll be here for you when they are long gone.


edited for spacing.

________________________________

[Cour]

Originally posted by tommer
hey cosar, let me get this straight, did you just delete the "don't turn FM fans against each other" thread????

this is NOT how things go around here!!!!

these methods DO NOT belong here, this is NOT mick's chat! this is NOT our way to deal with stuff!!!

if you can't handle the heat, you probably don't belong to this kitchen!





Tommer, I saw your post last night that wouldn't it be ironic if this now DELETED thread were to be locked by the administrators here.


The last thread that was locked on the Ledge was a thread where a certain "Doctor" came over from Mick's board and decided to disrupt this board and threw that thread way off track hurling attacks and insults at the people who post here. Deja vu.

Marty told me that was the first thread to be locked in so long he couldn't remember the last time it had happened.

You're right, this is not the way things go around here.

_______________________________

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Cour
Marty told me that was the first thread to be locked in so long he couldn't remember the last time it had happened.

Perhaps Marty's memory is not as good as mine, but I remember a handful of threads locked not long ago.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by Cour


I hope you and Louise KNOW that the MAJORITY of the online Fleetwood Mac community believes you and Louise and supports and applauds your efforts to bring this to everyone's attention.

Try not to let a few ignorant spineless people get you guys down.

Remember who your friends are and we'll be here for you when they are long gone.



Thanks for that. I have made some great frineds online and I will pay no attention to the ignorant ones. Sleep deprivation makes me crazy sometimes hence the reaction this morning. I have no regrets about going public with this

Pip

[cosar]

I am not going to spend a lot of time debating whether what I did was right. What I did is done, and can’t be undone.

I began posting on Mick’s board because I love and care about Fleetwood Mac. I came over here to try to say that we are all Fleetwood Mac fans and that there is more that unites us than divides us. I may have been wrong about that. Maybe East really is East and West really is West.

In any event, I now find myself in the middle of a war that I have no interest being in the middle of. I understand that I put myself there, and I’m not blaming anyone else. But it may be time for me to declare defeat and withdraw.

When I logged on this morning after reading this thread, I had intended just to remove my registration from this board. But (1) I couldn’t figure out how to do it and (2) when I went to my profile page I found a couple of private messages from people I respect asking me not to leave. So I’m going to keep my registration for now and just stop posting for a while until I can decide what I want to do.

In the meantime, I wish you all well. :)

[Cour]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Perhaps Marty's memory is not as good as mine, but I remember a handful of threads locked not long ago.


Perhaps it's not:)

I think it happens very infrequently on this board considering the volume of posts and topics, and the diverse opinions being expressed by the members.

[seeknpeace]

couldn’t figure out how to do it and (2) when I went to my profile page I found a couple of private messages from people I respect asking me not to leave.

You know, I cannot understand this..hmm...seems to me when I have a pm, I get an immediate notice that requires that I respond if I want to read the PM now or not...I have NEVER stumbled onto one that way. :confused: :rolleyes:

[jwys_soapbox]

Well, after a night's sleep, I think I'm clear on my own position about this thing. I think that Cosar was wrong to do what he did. Now, I'm not here to attack you Cosar. I think you were acting under the belief that the thread was yours to do with as you pleased while the concensus on this board is that once people start participating in your thread it is no longer yours, but shared by everyone on the board. This is pretty much an unspoken understanding that apparently you did not pick up on (perhaps due to the example set on the MF board--and I don't mean m***** f*****, I mean Mick Fleetwood );) Let's all let Cosar have this one and write it off as a newbie's mistake. But please let's not have this kind of transgression happen again by the hands of anyone who was here when it happened.

John

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Cour
Perhaps it's not:)

I think it happens very infrequently on this board considering the volume of posts and topics, and the diverse opinions being expressed by the members.

I am not going to engage in a volley over this one, but just to clarify: I was involved in at least four threads that I can remember were locked in the August-October time frame. That is fact.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by cosar
In any event, I now find myself in the middle of a war that I have no interest being in the middle of. I understand that I put myself there, and I’m not blaming anyone else. But it may be time for me to declare defeat and withdraw.


Cosar, your intention was good. Don't let the reaction of some to discourage you from continuing to participate.

[tommer]

Originally posted by cosar
I am not going to spend a lot of time debating whether what I did was right. What I did is done, and can’t be undone... I may have been wrong about that... I’m not blaming anyone else. But it may be time for me to declare defeat and withdraw.

THIS IS NEITHER AN APOLOGY NOR AN EXPLANATION, AT LEAST NOT IN MY BOOK.
TRY AGAIN!!!

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by cosar
I am not going to spend a lot of time debating whether what I did was right. What I did is done, and can’t be undone.

I began posting on Mick’s board because I love and care about Fleetwood Mac. I came over here to try to say that we are all Fleetwood Mac fans and that there is more that unites us than divides us. I may have been wrong about that. Maybe East really is East and West really is West.

In any event, I now find myself in the middle of a war that I have no interest being in the middle of. I understand that I put myself there, and I’m not blaming anyone else. But it may be time for me to declare defeat and withdraw.

When I logged on this morning after reading this thread, I had intended just to remove my registration from this board. But (1) I couldn’t figure out how to do it and (2) when I went to my profile page I found a couple of private messages from people I respect asking me not to leave. So I’m going to keep my registration for now and just stop posting for a while until I can decide what I want to do.

In the meantime, I wish you all well. :)

Nice try Cosar. This explains absolutely nothing. You say you began posting at Mick's Chat because you love FM. Good for you. That goes for me too. Yet, you say little or nothing about the double standards and hypocrisy at Mick's board, you defend people who've been exposed as self-serving parasites responsible for bringing down the band's image and dividing the fans, then you come here trying to "make peace" by attacking people who get nothing but grief (from fans like you) for working to expose the dirt surrounding the "official" Fleetwood Mac operations. How can you imply you're surprised and grief-stricken seeing there's a reason for fans to be devided? We've said so all along. You post in words of a peacemaker, while taking actions of a partisan. How do you expect people to react?

What you haven't done...in any post on this thread or in the old one you deleted...is explain WHY YOU CONTINUE TO SUPPORT MICK'S CHAT & THE PEOPLE WHO OPERATE IT --AFTER KNOWING ABOUT THE WRONGS DONE TO FANS IN THE NAME OF FLEETWOOD MAC.

You say you WERE going to remove your registration from this board. Why? This board is not under a cloud like the other one is. Are you that thin skinned you can't handle some pointed discourse? Despite our disagreements in posts about Mick's Chat & the Fan Club, I'm not glad to read you want to leave for good. However, I repeat myself again...I fail to understand why you aren't considering leaving Mick's board? Hasn't anything about the whole controversy ever given you pause to think, leaving that board instead, is more appropriate and less questionable regarding your true motives, than coming here and doing what you've done the past few days?

Lurking at any board is no big deal. I can see wanting to lurk at Mick's site incase anything new is posted there first (Bwaaahaaa!) Staying there and being an active poster, giving the site a legitimacy it doesn't deserve, and continuing to cozy up to those with an idea that Mick, or anyone else in the band, actually reads what people say and approve of it all...that's another story. Yes, all the while never saying you agree Pip and Louise were wrongly defamed, then implying some of us here are being unfair to Jackie and Trinity...fans who've acted in blatant self-interest...none of it makes any sense. Where do you really stand?

The only thing that makes sense, unless you set the record straight yourself, is that others were NOT wrong in assuming your motives were questionable in light of your behavior. It may be correct to assume you've chosen to line up firmly on the other side. Perhaps your "claim" you care about fans getting along is completely insincere? Maybe some believe it makes issues appear less cut & dry as to what really happend if you post the way you have of late. Is this your purpose...presenting an image that some fans don't know which way to turn, or you feel it's not that clear who's right about issues surrounding the whole controversy? Explain yourself and I think there's no reason for you to feel under attack by fans on this board.

Saying you admit defeat means nothing. Defeat about what? Everything we've tried to discuss about the double-standards, hypocrisy, lies, cheating, pay-offs, and overall dirty dealings being played out about the fan club on Mick's board? OR defeat about being exposed as a double dealing hypocrite who wants to play it both ways and expect people not to call your actions and motives into question?

I believe I've tried, more than some of us "troublemakers," to be hospitable to you, and to let you know I'm not against you presenting a different point of view. I'm still not against you posting here, either. However, it's ridiculous not to see that nothing will ever be settled, or that your views will never be taken seriously, as long as you refuse to fully explain your conduct here and at Mick's board.

(edited for typos only)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by seeknpeace
You know, I cannot understand this..hmm...seems to me when I have a pm, I get an immediate notice that requires that I respond if I want to read the PM now or not...I have NEVER stumbled onto one that way. :confused: :rolleyes:

You get an "immediate notice" because you set it up that way. Not everyone has. I didn't know PMs existed for months until I accidentally stumbled on them.

[gypsysara]

If you start a thread and no one posts a response, I feel you should be able to delete it.

If someone starts a thread, and you post a reply and want to delete it, I feel you should be able to delete it.

***HOWEVER***

If you start a thread and others post a response, and you then delete that thread (and hence deleting their posts), that functionability should NOT be allowed to general users.

Why?

CENSORSHIP!

:distress:
WHATS THE WORLD COMING TO?

[gypsysara]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You get an "immediate notice" because you set it up that way. Not everyone has. I didn't know PMs existed for months until I accidentally stumbled on them.

PS - same here, I didnt realize for a while there was PM.

Geez... just when I was trying to bring PEACE to the "fan" thread... :distress: :distress: :distress:

[glitter_fades]

What happens when that feature is turned off? Does the person sending a PM get notified you don't accept PM's?

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
What happens when that feature is turned off? Does the person sending a PM get notified you don't accept PM's?

Not accepting PMs is a different option, which you may also choose. I believe what we were referring to is the pop-up window that appears when someone sends you a PM. You may choose not to have that pop-up window. You may also choose to have the Ledge notify you by e-mail when you get a PM.

[glitter_fades]

I still want to know what happens when someone sends a PM and the party does not accept it. Dose the sender get a message, or what? If anyone knows...

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Not accepting PMs is a different option, which you may also choose. I believe what we were referring to is the pop-up window that appears when someone sends you a PM. You may choose not to have that pop-up window. You may also choose to have the Ledge notify you by e-mail when you get a PM.

Ahhh....I signed up so long ago that I didn't realize that. I did know that you would get a message if someone is not allowing pms, or maybe that was at Micks site, but, whatever.

[flyfirefly]

About the Pip/Louise thing...unless one of you specifically came to the board to press that as a concern, it's called hearsay.

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
About the Pip/Louise thing...unless one of you specifically came to the board to press that as a concern, it's called hearsay.

Not when they post it...or when Louise does. And, that is what I base my opinion on. I believe her as she has nothing to gain from telling it. Are you saying that you question her honesty and if she changed or made that up? If not, why did you even post that?

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
About the Pip/Louise thing...unless one of you specifically came to the board to press that as a concern, it's called hearsay.
Do you mean Mick's board? You really think a thread didicated to 'The email no-one was supposed to read' would be allowed to remain over there? I believe Louise attempted to post a link to the full story and it was promptly deleted.

Pip

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
About the Pip/Louise thing...unless one of you specifically came to the board to press that as a concern, it's called hearsay.
And it was posted here in full so believe me it is definitely not hearsay.

Pip

[flyfirefly]

Seeknpeace - That's what I said.

Otherwise, it is hearsay. That doesn't mean it's not true, people.

& I'm posting that because well...let's see...at the beginning of this thread you were commending our efforts and now everyone's getting all antsy.

If you went to the thread, you'd realize that no one has suggested the "UK Fan Story" is not true. Someone asked a question basically about how that could happen and the computer logistics of it all, another replied to it, then it was asserted that someone had already said the UK story was untrue, when, in fact, it wasn't. But no one actually accused anyone of anything. Don't take it out of hand yet, that story is the least of the concerns over there--no one is spending any time debating it's legitmacy.

[seeknpeace]

Don't take it out of hand yet, that story is the least of the concerns over there--no one is spending any time debating it's legitmacy.

Maybe we are saying the same thing. When they put that question in that thread, in relation to Louises experience and so forth, they were casting doubt and shadows on her honesty. There is no other way to see it. You do not have to come out and say something to say it. I will say it if I think it and it is important enough to me, but, others will not. There is a divide between the sites. While your efforts to try and get some answers over there is commendable, that doesn't change the intent of the person who asked the question about changing the ip addy's etc, on the heels of a discussion of Louises experience. If that was not the intent, could it be?

And as for Trin and Jackies issue about the who flew who, Knight is the one that made that suspect. He is the one that said "I flew them out". Perhaps he was trying to dazzle Louises eyes with his bribe and make her think he would do the same for her, but, in so doing he called into question that whole thing. We did not just make that up and everyone is missing that issue. Again, this falls back to the fearless leader.

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
...

--no one is spending any time debating it's legitmacy.

That's the point.

Is anyone speaking out on behalf of the defamed UK fans?

[flyfirefly]

In case you missed the point, that's not what the thread's about

What are they supposed to do? Any comments they make you're going to sashay around until you find something that just isn't up to par. I've never had any problems with Pip--I don't know Louise--but that doesn't mean I don't believe their story. But the thread isn't about defense, it's about concerns inevitably to be addressed by the Knight.

Besides, like I said before, no one directly suggested that it wasn't true.

[seeknpeace]

Besides, like I said before, no one directly suggested that it wasn't true

Did they have to? did you miss their point?

[flyfirefly]

It's a thread on Mick's Chat anyway, I don't see why you're so concerned about it if you're not going to give it time evolve and bash it whenever you can.

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
In case you missed the point, that's not what the thread's about

What are they supposed to do? Any comments they make you're going to sashay around until you find something that just isn't up to par. I've never had any problems with Pip--I don't know Louise--but that doesn't mean I don't believe their story. But the thread isn't about defense, it's about concerns inevitably to be addressed by the Knight.

Besides, like I said before, no one directly suggested that it wasn't true.

Therefore, the post asking about emails being forged or whatever was said about IPs...that's not what the thread was about either...right? That post was not relevant to the thread as well?

No problem...as long as your being consistent.

As for the remark about sashing around until you find something just isn't up to par...I take it the YOU is a collective YOU meaning the people who post there and not YOU referring to me. It's clear from my posts that I don't sashay around anything. I'm as blunt as the head of a hammer...certainly not a virtue...but it's the fans at Mick's who sashay around issues, not the people looking for answers here.

Hopefully I understood you correctly.

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
It's a thread on Mick's Chat anyway, I don't see why you're so concerned about it if you're not going to give it time evolve and bash it whenever you can.

Bashing it whenever you can...again I take it YOU is the collective you meaning the people at Mick's and not YOU meaning me or any specific person commenting in this thread?

We have given the thread at Mick's it's due recognition and congratulations, so I don't get what you mean if you're saying anyone here is "bashing" unless any criticism (the collective mindset at Mick's) is considered "bashing."

:confused:

[flyfirefly]

[...] but it's the fans at Mick's who sashay around issues, not the people looking for answers here.


Oh come on. Heavy bias you carry.

I love how everyone likes to jump on my consistency like it's something that's fading. I've been consistent. Some people forget that one perspective, isn't the only perspective.

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
Oh come on. Heavy bias you carry.

I love how everyone likes to jump on my consistency like it's something that's fading. I've been consistent. Some people forget that one perspective, isn't the only perspective.

Not a bias, just an observation. So, are you saying you did not mean to address me, personally? If so, no problem. If you decline to explain then I guess I can only rely on my observations.

You are right, one perspective is not the only perspective. Nobody here said it was.

[flyfirefly]

No, it is bias. You implied in what I quoted, that the people at Mick's Chat are starting controversy, while the people here at the Ledge are simply asking questions. Please. Conveniently enough, you post here, and not Mick's Chat.

In my last post, no...that was you specifically, as you made the quote.

Typically, when I respond to a post someone above me has just posted and I'm not three or four posts down--and when I obviously replying to a comment they've made, you is appropriate as the you in question is the you who made the post.

And we're concerned with wording?

[glitter_fades]

As I said, if YOU means me...I don't sashay around anything. Everyone knows what I'm doing and I've clearly explained everything I stand for and against. I don't deal in vague generalities and implications.

I haven't posted only here for convenience. I've posted ONLY here because I was banned from there for posting a fan poll on who was satisfied with the first ticket sale. YOU yourself have the convenience of posting at both sites, unlike some of us who've been banned for no valid reason except asking question the board admins are uncomfortable with. You are the one trying to have it both ways, not me.

Clear wording is very important if you expect to be understood. If you only come here to fan the flames, don't claim you're really about peacemaking. I'm not the one claiming to be a peacemaker. I'm clearly on the side of controversy. I admit fanning the flames. I never said nor implied I am not about that.

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
No, it is bias. You implied in what I quoted, that the people at Mick's Chat are starting controversy, while the people here at the Ledge are simply asking questions. Please. Conveniently enough, you post here, and not Mick's Chat.

In my last post, no...that was you specifically, as you made the quote.

Typically, when I respond to a post someone above me has just posted and I'm not three or four posts down--and when I obviously replying to a comment they've made, you is appropriate as the you in question is the you who made the post.

And we're concerned with wording?

I think that it is all a bunch of horse ****, ok? and, hell yes, I am being controversial, and I am not sashaying around anything. I noted here that they insinuated that Louise may have doctored the posts from their guru. And, what is that to you? Why in the world are we even having this conversation? I don't care about wording, I care about intent. Call me out. I am totally over it all and have no problem saying what I think and I am gonna try to hold my line while being open to consider other views. ARe you taking this personally? What in the world is all this about? You go back and forth Fire...what do you want to accomplish? You know what I want to accomplish? I want JT to answer for what is questioned and to make amends and to be fired. THat is what I want. If, along the way, ppl want to defend him or his territory, then we may wrestle. You started a thread that was hijacked...happens all the time, but, hell, I didn't hijack it. I do not post there, and I could if I wanted to. I don't want to.

ANYWAY....Glitter,,,,How U Doin?:wavey:

[glitter_fades]

Also, please don't characterize what I said to fit your agenda. I never said people at Mick's want controversy. Hell, no. They want conformity. If you want to repeat that...it's ok with me. Just don't mischaracterize what I said, Fly. That's one tactic the shill's at Mick's have tried over and over to put their spin on things and change what was actually said. I don't play that.

Hey, Peace! Doing fine here. How's that petition going? Let it toast a little longer before sending it. Can't hurt.

:wavey: :wavey:

[seeknpeace]

Hey, Peace! Doing fine here. How's that petition going? Let it toast a little longer before sending it. Can't hurt.

Well, girl, you know how it is. It speeds up a minute then slows down. We are averaging about 10-15 a day now...so, that isn't bad. The big bump came in the beginning, which I knew that it would.

Right about 320... You ready for my visit in July? Everyone is gonna be there in Scottsdale, I think...
:nod:

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by BombaySapphire3
I have not commented on this much .But as soon as I saw Mick's FM site had a pay fan club I had to laugh.Now some of the newer fans who bought into it I can sympathize with, but anyone who has closely followed this band and it's core members activities for years or decades,and who paid more than a wooden nickel to this 'fan" club shame on you !

With this I have to agree 100%. I'm one who's followed them for years, and with Mick's track record...and some of what's gone down with a few others in the band...I should have known better.

I accept your tounge lashing with relish. Is there an "everybody spank me" avatar? :lol:

[David]

Originally posted by tommer
you did not erase your own opinions there, you erased everyone who posted their opinions! once others replied, this thread is no longer YOURS, can't you see it???
i find it shameless and disgraceful!
i do not give a rat's ass if it made you "too sad", i don't care about how much of a coward you are! deleting MY valid opinions doesn't make ME sad- it makes me PISSED As usual, I agree with Tommer.

You've got no business deleting entire threads on a silly whim. The Internet really makes one understand the impulse to censor.

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by seeknpeace
Well, girl, you know how it is. It speeds up a minute then slows down. We are averaging about 10-15 a day now...so, that isn't bad. The big bump came in the beginning, which I knew that it would.

Right about 320... You ready for my visit in July? Everyone is gonna be there in Scottsdale, I think...
:nod:

Yes, ma'am! Come on down, girl! Just got the pool refinished.

On the petition, if you send it today, can ya keep it going as well? I'm for that.

:wavey:

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
Yes, ma'am! Come on down, girl! Just got the pool refinished.

On the petition, if you send it today, can ya keep it going as well? I'm for that.

:wavey:

Oh Yeah...gonna let it go on. Just shovel off what I have to them maybe tomorrow. I am holding off for a reason as someone is getting a call tonite from a message bearer, and I want to see how that plays out. :wavey: :wavey:

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
Oh come on. Heavy bias you carry.

I love how everyone likes to jump on my consistency like it's something that's fading. I've been consistent...

:lol: :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by seeknpeace


Right about 320... You ready for my visit in July? Everyone is gonna be there in Scottsdale, I think...
:nod:
I wanna party!!!:distress:

[glitter_fades]

Pip, if you and Louise want to come for the Phoenix show and can afford it, I will put you up free of charge, as long as you're not picky about accomodations. LOL! I promise it won't be a dump. Think about coming over. We'll see to it that UK fans are treated right. Give it some thought.

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
Pip, if you and Louise want to come for the Phoenix show and can afford it, I will put you up free of charge, as long as you're not picky about accomodations. LOL! I promise it won't be a dump. Think about coming over. We'll see to it that UK fans are treated right. Give it some thought.

See? You need to come Pip...the girls from TX will be there and one of the Wonder Twins, the other has to work, :o( , but, lots of ppl and you can so come and hang my friend. We are due a time anyways...

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
Pip, if you and Louise want to come for the Phoenix show and can afford it, I will put you up free of charge, as long as you're not picky about accomodations. LOL! I promise it won't be a dump. Think about coming over. We'll see to it that UK fans are treated right. Give it some thought.
Oh bless you. I would so love to come. I even looked at the price of flights online and the cheapest I could find was more than £500. But more of a problem is that week is our family holiday to Cornwall. Bugger :(

Pip

[gypsysara]

Heck I second that Pip. Ill have plenty of room for me, myself and I at the Residence Inn in Phoenix! Youd be welcome with me if youd like.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by seeknpeace
See? You need to come Pip...the girls from TX will be there and one of the Wonder Twins, the other has to work, :o( , but, lots of ppl and you can so come and hang my friend. We are due a time anyways...
Oh I wish... I wish..

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by gypsysara
Heck I second that Pip. Ill have plenty of room for me, myself and I at the Residence Inn in Phoenix! Youd be welcome with me if youd like.

Stephanie, you coming to the AZ show? Maybe we could meet....there will be a lot of ppl with us.. Just to put a face with a nice person online...

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by gypsysara
Heck I second that Pip. Ill have plenty of room for me, myself and I at the Residence Inn in Phoenix! Youd be welcome with me if youd like.
Thanks so much!!

[gypsysara]

You betcha Peace! I dont have any real-time friends as interested in Stevie & the Mac as I am, so Im flying out solo (boo hoo, not!) to Phoenix.

I just scored that dated but unused FM Photo Pass 2003... so Im thinking Ill take it out to AZ too and see if I can use it there. Itd be nice to get some good photos before I have to go back to the nosebleed seat.

Im sure there'll be a thread started before the show, but yes, Id love to meet you all. Only you all here understand my love and devotion to my "FAB FOUR" (minus my Songbird, of course)

[sodascouts]

I am flying out to Phoenix alone, too. Sniff. But I have FRONT ROW CENTER SEATS so WHO CARES?! YES!!! First time EVER!!!

:]

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I am flying out to Phoenix alone, too. Sniff. But I have FRONT ROW CENTER SEATS so WHO CARES?! YES!!! First time EVER!!!

:]

well, see there are too many of us going to Phoenix to not plan to meet in the lobby and see each other or to meet for a drink before the show or after or something..;)

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I am flying out to Phoenix alone, too. Sniff. But I have FRONT ROW CENTER SEATS so WHO CARES?! YES!!! First time EVER!!!

:]

What a snag Sodascouts! Must have set you back a few bucks to get those seats. Those benefit shows are pricey. I can never sit close for Stevie or FM anymore here in AZ cuz I can't afford it! I'd have to spend the $$ going out of town for a show to sit close. There's a thought...?...if I go at all.

I'll be around for the get togethers but still not sure about the show. Come on down though. We are going to party! We need to make a ralley point for all the gypsies to meet. Any suggestions?

[seeknpeace]

I'll be around for the get togethers but still not sure about the show. Come on down though. We are going to party! We need to make a ralley point for all the gypsies to meet. Any suggestions?

Well, now, we are in your back yard....but, maybe Kel and Jess would know a good watering hole?

I only did the one AHI with the benefit tickets...I am going el cheapo out the butto...this time. round...:nod:

[glitter_fades]

Last time we did Hard Rock. That was before they moved downtown. Now it's right next to the arena, so it's close by. We can have early drinks before the show? It'll be mobbed that night for sure, but we can try to go early so we get a table by that lame Stevie/FM display. I need the laughs. :laugh:

[flyfirefly]

Re: glitter_fades

Nice. Glad you got a kick out of that.

[Tango]

Originally posted by cosar
Glitter,

I don’t want you or anyone else here to think this board censors people. To paraphrase the opening of a song I know you’re familiar with, “I took my thread, I took it down.” It was causing too much heartache, for me and, it seemed, for everyone else. It was making me too sad.

I have noticed in the short time I’ve been here that a lot of people just avoid the contentious threads and only post in the ones that deal with Fleetwood Mac’s music, concerts, etc. I think I’ve learned my lesson, and I plan to follow their lead.

You say you have learned your lesson, but have you learned the right lesson? You learned to delete and censor from Jonathan, and it's always been acceptable, apparently. But as I look at who is speaking up on this thread, you've deleted and censored the very individuals that are taking action against the wrongs done by the Fleetwood Mac Fans. They originally raised the issues on "the official site" while they had a voice there. They questioned the whole set up of the passwords, asked about the "Pacific Coast start time" for the first presale" and many other issues. They were deleted and banned for not being "happy." Since then, they've written letters, made phone calls, contacted the BBB, The State Attorney General and others. Most importantly, the people YOU censored raised the issues so that other fans could see them.

Cosar, you employed the exact tactic that Jonathan Todd did. You got them to answer your thread, just as he did on "Complaints I and II" and after they took their time to type their grievances out, you summarily deleted them. Do you wonder why you have so much anger coming your direction? Cosar, the fans on Mick's board are still trying to figure out what the issues are! The fans here are way ahead, and are doing something about it. If that makes you unhappy, if that gives you heartache, then stay off those threads.

You pointed a finger at the people of this board and said, "Don't divide the fans." Your very act of censorship has aligned some fans against you. The posts on this site have largely been directed at The Official Fleetwood Mac Fan Club and at Jonathan Todd and the two "official sites" that he sired. Yes, there are people that question the moderators desire to support the site created by a man that does NOT care for the fans at all. I think those are fair questions to be raised. I'm one of them.

You can still post here. But there are those from this board that cannot or in quite a few cases will NOT post there because of the very act of censorship and deletion that you enacted on this board. They will not post there because of what Jonathan Todd did to the fans. cosar, you were wrong to censor. I know you are a fan. I know that. But what you did was wrong.

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
Re: glitter_fades

Nice. Glad you got a kick out of that.

If you saw the display they have...P-eeww! You'd laugh too.

They had good Stevie items at their old location but the new place has a sorry display for a hometown girl.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
What a snag Sodascouts! Must have set you back a few bucks to get those seats. Those benefit shows are pricey. I can never sit close for Stevie or FM anymore here in AZ cuz I can't afford it! I'd have to spend the $$ going out of town for a show to sit close. There's a thought...?...if I go at all.

I'll be around for the get togethers but still not sure about the show. Come on down though. We are going to party! We need to make a ralley point for all the gypsies to meet. Any suggestions?

Oh, it sure did. $1000. But I believe it's worth it. I'm absolutely THRILLED to be going! And it's for charity, not like Mick's lame-o meet and greet crap (or wait, that was JT's idea, right?). Anyway, that's how I justify it to myself.

I'd love to meet up. This is so cool!!!!

[seeknpeace]

Oh, it sure did. $1000. But I believe it's worth it. I'm absolutely THRILLED to be going! And it's for charity, not lot Mick's lame-o crap. That's how I justify it to myself.

Have you ever done the AHI Benefit and after party? Well, see how many drag queens you can pick out..hehe. My purse opened and all my **** feel out on the red carpet going in...just a real Jan moment. sigh..

I do not regret doing the AHI show though. I maybe would do it again, but, I have different expectations now of it. Where is the after party this year?

[glitter_fades]

Yes, it's great that this show is for charity. That might be the only reason I go at all. If I had the money I'd pay the AZ Heart Inst. before I forked out to Mick and the Toad.

I think other ticket proceeds go partly to the fund, not just the donor seats. Hmmm? I'm not sure if this whole show is donated or not? When Stevie does her own show as Stevie and Friends it all goes to charity after bare bones expenses. With Mick calling the shots...I don't know how it goes.

I really want to support the AHI since my brother and father just had heart surgery. They are a great charity and Stevie built their new hospital practically single handedly with the proceeds of her 2000 and 2001 shows.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by seeknpeace
Have you ever done the AHI Benefit and after party? Well, see how many drag queens you can pick out..hehe. My purse opened and all my **** feel out on the red carpet going in...just a real Jan moment. sigh..

I do not regret doing the AHI show though. I maybe would do it again, but, I have different expectations now of it. Where is the after party this year?

Actually, I have (I only saw one drag queen, lol). And I didn't spend all the money with the idea that I would get "close and personal" with that band. Really, that's not terribly important to me. But last year, the concert itself was just such a special experience (and I truly believe it's a worthy cause). I figure by spending the extra money I can have an even better time and help other people besides myself (not that I'm some unselfish benefactor - obviously the FM component motivated my generosity! lol). Anyway, I can't wait to do it again!

[flyfirefly]

Nancy, that's how I tried to think about it when I ended up giving my extra Nashville tickets away to someone outside the venue.

(Thanks for posting the sale though :))

[cosar]

With apologies to, and great appreciation for, those who asked me to stay, I’ve concluded that I can’t. I acknowledge that I could have handled my entry to this board quite a bit better than I did. But at this point, I find it too hostile an environment to be comfortable staying. (There’s that darn “C” word again – yes, I admit I prefer that my environment be comfortable.) If I ever come back, it will be under a different name, and then only to discuss FM and their music. And if anyone thinks that’s wrong or deceptive, I guess I really don’t care.

Glitter asked me to address why I stay at Mick’s board and I’ve decided to attempt a brief explanation on my way out. First and foremost, I stay because I have made a number of friends there. I’m not going to abandon them. I enjoy discussing Fleetwood Mac with them, sharing concert experiences, digging out information about the tour, etc. It’s fun – as an internet chat board should be. There are enough places for me to find grief in this world. I organize my internet bookmarks into folders, and my bookmark for Mick’s board (as well as for this board) is in a folder labeled “Entertainment”. It’s not in a folder labeled “Social Justice”.

Second, while I share many of the concerns expressed here about the way Mr. Todd handled (or mishandled) the fan club, the presales, Louise and Pip, and a host of other matters – and there are other regulars at Mick’s board who share these concerns too – I am just unable to reach the same level of outrage about it that some of you exhibit here. If you choose to continue your crusade on the subject, that’s your right. (Although I don’t think it’s your right to endlessly attack those who choose differently.) I reached the conclusion that I was ready to go on with my life.

I do not put the transgressions of Mr. Todd into the category of major social injustice. I know some of you do, but I’m sorry, I just don’t. While I would shed no tears if he were replaced (and as a pure business matter, I even think this would be best for all involved), if he stays, so be it. I am not going to let it consume my life. Or let it diminish my passion for and appreciation of Fleetwood Mac.

I also don’t view Mr. Todd’s injustices as likely to be repeated. I’ll be shocked if the renewal rate for the fan club exceeds the single digits. I know I won’t be renewing. And for those who do choose to renew, that’s their right too.

Finally, I need to make one more observation. I expect I will get flamed for this (well, probably for this whole post), but I’m leaving anyway, so what the heck. For all your talk about free speech, when it comes to the subject of Jonathan Todd, the fan club, Mick’s board and related issues, I think there is very little in the way of free speech going on here. Anyone who expresses a view contrary to the “politically correct” view here on these subjects – or who even expresses the view that maybe there are too many threads dealing with these subjects on the board and that it would be better if we could all just go back to discussing Fleetwood Mac – gets shouted down, swarmed under and/or isolated until they give up. Eventually people don’t even bother to try. This may not be overt censorship, but it’s very effective censorship nonetheless.

So with that, I will now take my leave. I wish you all well.:wavey:

[gypsysara]

Take care! :wavey:

[seeknpeace]

Eventually people don’t even bother to try. This may not be overt censorship, but it’s very effective censorship nonetheless.

This is my last response to anything that you have to say Cosar.

You came to this board and started all this mess, flamed it up, removed the thread, talked out of both sides of your mouth, and now you make these lame accusations, AGAIN trying to incite and make issues where none may exist.

I think that we need to try to whittle down the number of threads dealing with this issue, but, not drop it. I am sick of your bs...it makes no sense and it jumps all over the place. Ours do not. We stand firm. We welcomed you here, we listened to your mess, til you went back over there and stabbed us and this community in the back. You called me out by name for something that I did not even do, in the first paragraph of your first post here, along with two of my friends.

So, if you post out the gills again, I will not respond, even though you may say something that makes me upset. That is all that you are about. Is trying to stir it up. We don't have to try. It is stirred up and guess what, we did not create the recipe.

And, as for social injustice, put your head back in the sand with anyone else that wants to. You, like them, will reap any benefits that we hope to get, just like us and if we get none, then only we will pay. But, for me, it is worth it. FOR ME.

Buh Bye.:wavey:

[Tango]

I agree seeknpeace. The only censoring that has been done has been by cosar. The microphone remains open here. I look over the threads on "the official board" and see the direct clubbing going on by a core group and wonder how can cosar be so blind. How's that old song go, "there is none so blind as he who will not see."

Well, if cosar comes back, as he says, with a new name, that's fine. New slate, carry on old chap, and all that. Just promise he won't ever be selected to be a moderator here !

:laugh:

Bye cosar. See you on the flip side. I wish you well. Seriously.

[gypsysara]

Some Ledgies have strong feelings over one topic or another. IMO all opinions, popular and un popular, are welcome here. We may not agree, we may not see eye-to-eye, but its a public and open forum ~ that's the way it is (thankfully), that's the way it should be.

Sorry you felt some of us were overbearing, opinionated, etc. I myself am a vocal WOMAN, I can see several here are as well (vocal, not necessarily women lol). I do disagree though that we censor buy stating our opinions (the "bully" syndrome). We're just speaking our minds, you know? Just like you state yours. I feel we've all said and proved that we're here to read and respect one anothers opinions.

Again, I wish you well Cosar.

:wavey:

[glitter_fades]

Nice try again, Cosar, but no cigar. Your explanation, as usual, says nothing. Your spin is transparent in every post you make. It's clear your only mission in ever posting on this board has been to create a false impression you're misunderstood, and in addition, that issues about the fan club are also misunderstood. That's bullpuckey and you know it.

Your reasons for staying at Mick's Chat are clear and transparent as well. Despite your explanation, you and all your friends can just as easily post here instead...you simlpy choose not to. End of story. Folders? That's the big reason? The unexplained reasons are well known to many, so don't bother. We don't expect you to tell us who you really are. You choose to support the Knight, don't bother telling us really why. We know why.

I'm sorry you want to do so, but that's your choice. You don't have to agree the fan club fraud's a big deal just to get along with fans here. Please don't try to diminish it as nothing worth talking about on a fan message board! That's your opinion and you're entitled to express it. Don't accuse fans here of mistreating you for not letting you spin things your way without a pointed reply. I don't flame you, I merely disagree.

When you return under your new assumed name I wouldn't worry about who cares. You could have ignored all the threads about the issues that upset you here, but you chose to add the JT spin on these threads. Then you chose to delete them. As long as you're not posting and deleting on other issues, too, I think you will still be welcome here. You still are, but it's your choice to leave and return under another name. Nobody said you had to. Enjoy yourself over at Mick' Chat. See ya back here later on...when that place folds like a house of cards.
:wavey: :wavey:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by cosar
For all your talk about free speech, when it comes to the subject of Jonathan Todd, the fan club, Mick’s board and related issues, I think there is very little in the way of free speech going on here. Anyone who expresses a view contrary to the “politically correct” view here on these subjects – or who even expresses the view that maybe there are too many threads dealing with these subjects on the board and that it would be better if we could all just go back to discussing Fleetwood Mac – gets shouted down, swarmed under and/or isolated until they give up.

I agree. I also believe that you should feel free to post here and in Mick's board. Folks who were mistreated over there have every right to be sore about it, but they have no right to demand you not post there just because you post here.

[flyfirefly]

Just so I'm consistent, I also replied to this at Mick's Chat--and you're all welcome to make sure.

Originally posted by cosar
There are enough places for me to find grief in this world. I organize my internet bookmarks into folders, and my bookmark for Mick’s board (as well as for this board) is in a folder labeled “Entertainment”.


Good point, here. 'Cause in the end, that's what it all comes down to.

I am just unable to reach the same level of outrage about it that some of you exhibit here.


I would like to insert that in my opinion, some of the "outrage" has been misdirected and not at all about fan club concerns. However, it is not limited to this board alone.

I am not going to let it consume my life. Or let it diminish my passion for and appreciation of Fleetwood Mac.


Another good point. There were people who came to Mick's Chat and since I haven't become an Addicted Ledgie yet, I'm not sure about visitors here--but people nonetheless, who said they would never listen to Fleetwood Mac again, or offered to burn the new record for other people, and so on and so forth, and it's just...a waste of time in that respect. I mean, I want to "get him" (so to speak) like everyone else, but I won't let it interfere with my Mac aspect.


I also don’t view Mr. Todd’s injustices as likely to be repeated.

Also, I agree on this point. I mean...I'll say "I'll believe it when I see it" but I don't think anything of this calibre will happen again. Hopefully. But the distrust is already there. We'd have to trust him / the fanclub again for it to happen just the same.


Anyone who expresses a view contrary to the “politically correct” view here on these subjects – or who even expresses the view that maybe there are too many threads dealing with these subjects on the board and that it would be better if we could all just go back to discussing Fleetwood Mac – gets shouted down, swarmed under and/or isolated until they give up.

& with that, I also agree. So, maybe I'll see your would-be alias again :)

[Bella Figura]

thunder only happens when it's raining
players only love you when you're paying
Ledgies, they will come and they will go
if you still remain a fan, you'll know

free speech does not entitle a person to speak only his/her opinion while other voices remain silent forever...that's freedom for only the speaker, the listener/the audience must have freedom too...

[Cour]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I agree. I also believe that you should feel free to post here and in Mick's board. Folks who were mistreated over there have every right to be sore about it, but they have no right to demand you not post there just because you post here.


I don't think anyone demanded that anyone not post there. When it was first brought up about 10 people (maybe less) voiced their opinion about why would anyone continue to post there. I was vocal at that time and said that after hearing all the lies revealed, IMO the time to leave was now, and if people were going to come here after Mick's board collapsed, I did not want any part of them. I don't remember anyone demanding that someone not post there. I didn't see 100 people agreeing with me and the (10?) others who shared a similiar opinion.

I also don't remember anyone demanding that Cosar leave Mick's board. People repeated their confusion about why would anyone want to remain there and since Cosar opened up the discussion, in his now deleted thread and people here asked him to explain why he was remaining there.

I know Cosar's thread is gone, but I don't remember anyone demanding anything.

[tommer]

Originally posted by cosar
If I ever come back, it will be under a different name,
every worm deserves the chance to become a butterfly.
good luck next time.

[Cour]

Flyfirefly,


I think you're aware that many people here do not have access to read Mick's message board anymore and many people choose not to go there.


Here is your response to Cosar on Mick's board:


"Cosar, that was great. _I was never actually able to read it when it was on the Ledge because of course, it was swept over in flames and what I believe was called censorship though, it doesn't seem like that to me.
_
So, maybe I'm not being consistent (my personal favourite "C" word) here, but I agree. _Totally."



We can all see how consistent you are, and have always been.




___________________________

[seeknpeace]

Also, I agree on this point. I mean...I'll say "I'll believe it when I see it" but I don't think anything of this calibre will happen again. Hopefully. But the distrust is already there. We'd have to trust him / the fanclub again for it to happen just the same.

I would like to point out to you that if it is not repeated, it will be due to the efforts of the ppl fighting him, not the ones who went, "oh, well" and back to business as usual. Again, you all will benefit from the work that the ones fighting against it bring. If everyone had walked away as some have, and insist that all do, then you could just sit and eat that mess over and over.

And, also, did you guys miss what the Fan Club had to say to OKLandslides request for a refund? Did you just miss all that? That reply was received on May 27...just a few days ago. He has not changed nor stopped lying for one second.

He blatantly lied outright to the credit card company...seems that he forgets that he brings other legal issues into this and other agencies once he does that.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, will make me happier than the day that I can get back to life as usual and not have to ever read about this or feel that I need to fight over this again..and that will happen. It will happed because we reach our goal or because the road ends for it, but, for now, the road has not ended and JT has not stopped lying and trying to cheat the fans.

OKLandslide is one of the ones who had her identity stolen. Ask her how it feels to buy two memberships and when she tried to just look at the presales for CA, just LOOK, she was told she had used her allotment. She has never purchased a ticket through TM. Ever. So, how is that? Is that ok?

[gypsysara]

Originally posted by Bella Figura
free speech does not entitle a person to speak only his/her opinion while other voices remain silent forever...that's freedom for only the speaker, the listener/the audience must have freedom too...

I agree, but you also have to consider we are all on the WWW and no one can "make" another person speak up. That, IMO is up to each person to speak their mind. Hopefully people would speak up versus internalize and stew.

Flyfirefly - your posts are somewhat confusing to me (in this thread) because like Cour said, I myself cant go over to Mick's board to see anything. Quoting Mick's board and not really giving the thread info, or what its about, is confusing to me.

[Cour]

________________________________
Originally posted by cosar


(Although I don't think it's your right to endlessly attack those who choose differently.)

Finally, I need to make one more observation. I expect I will get flamed for this (well, probably for this whole post), but I'm leaving anyway, so what the heck. For all your talk about free speech, when it comes to the subject of Jonathan Todd, the fan club, Mick's board and related issues, I think there is very little in the way of free speech going on here. Anyone who expresses a view contrary to the "politically correct" view here on these subjects – or who even expresses the view that maybe there are too many threads dealing with these subjects on the board and that it would be better if we could all just go back to discussing Fleetwood Mac – gets shouted down, swarmed under and/or isolated until they give up. Eventually people don't even bother to try. This may not be overt censorship, but it's very effective censorship nonetheless.



Susieq started a thread on this board about the space the threads about the fanclub are using on the Rumours board. 2 people responded to her nicely and gave their point of view. What type of censorship was there in those posts that were so intimidating to the hundreds of other people who read this board, and the dozens who regularly post here?


This is the thread:
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/ledge/showthread.php?threadid=10320



There is also a thread on Mick's site called Concerns 1 or Concerns. The thread is 7 pages long. I tried to copy and paste some of the vile and nasty things that were posted to the person, but my computer is acting up and I can't get to the quotes.


The new person there dared to ask the question:


Is anyone here concerned about what is being said on the ledge. _ (paraphrased)


The attacks were nothing short of disgusting and the moderator who posted in that thread did not admonish or scold the "old time members" who were attacking the poster. Instead, they questioned and cast doubt on what the poster's intention was in coming there and they must be from another board. NO posts were deleted by the administration for crossing the lines of civility. NO "old time posters" were banned because of their attacks on people who very nicely asked some questions that NO ONE WANTS TO ANSWER. Cosar posted in that thread, and instead of being the voice of reason, he bashed some of the members of THIS board after he had apologized for his previous attacks here.
The people here who have voiced displeasure about the fanclub discussions have been treated fairly and with more respect than ANYONE has been treated over on Mick's site. It's possible that more people are annoyed by the fanclub threads and have not posted about it because it's not that big a deal. If it is, I hope they feel comfortable voicing their opinion.


Cosar's approach at voicing his opinion was not only wrong because of the personal attacks on a few members, the entire first post was a put down of this board and our feelings about the fanclub, all the while defending Mick's site and it's administrators.


I find the statements I quoted from Cosar hypocritical. He might try teaching the people over on Mick's board that "BITE IT" or GET OVER IT ALREADY" and other welcoming words are a form of censorship and it's THAT site that has NO free speech and wrote the book on censorship.


As for the Social Justice, I guess we should all be working hard to release any white collar criminals who cheated senior citizens or their employees or stockholders. Maybe we can form some type of movement to do away with the Better Business Bureau or any other agency that tries to prevent fraud against consumers. We also might want to think about all of those petty thieves and the way our justice system punishes them. After all, they just robbed one tiny bank, they just mugged one person, they just cheated a few people out of their money. Jonathan Todd just cheated a few hundred or thousand people out of their money and one 11 year old girl. Where's the harm in letting the whole thing slide and moving on.



________________________________

[gypsysara]

That has me laughing... do they (at MF.com) really think they are the only FM related WWW site out there?

From my viewpoint, they seriously do.

Based on your post Cour, sounds like they suspect anyone who voices anything contrary to their popular opinion.

"What you came from another board?"

"No, I was just born and came here right away so my virgin eyes dont get tainted"

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I agree. I also believe that you should feel free to post here and in Mick's board. Folks who were mistreated over there have every right to be sore about it, but they have no right to demand you not post there just because you post here.

Good points. I agree, and if you followed this thread (and the old one before it was deleted), you know I never said posting at both boards couldn't or shouldn't be done. I only pointed out to him that, to be taken seriously here, he shouldn't post as an advocate of that place when coming here unless he wants to defend his arguments. Also, don't try to make friends here and go back there and bash people who CAN"T post there.

The only reason the topic of explaining why he wanted to post there came up, was that Cosar said he wanted to leave this board and only post there. I said I didn't understand why anyone would prefer that board. Now he tries to imply that he was mistreated by everyone here, after he started the original thread with a post that wrongly flamed me. He knows he posted things he couldn't defend and he's upset when his motives come into question in light of his behavior. Maybe one or two posts toward him were rude, but he wasn't exactly being Mr. Nice Guy, the way he started the thread.

Overall people just disagreed with a lot of his wishy/washy posts and found fault with the way he was trying to paint himself as the wronged party. He really had no reason to leave the Ledge in light of the way he posted. I never said he should leave or change his name if he comes back. Unless he just can't deal with people questioning his behavior of posting and deleting and saying people said things they never said. I don't have a problem. I liked him when I was posting at Mick's.

Other fans go back and forth and don't have a problem unless they try to defend the people running Mick's Chat and the fan club. Even that's not a big deal as long as you don't mind defending what you say.

You seem to do quite well, Carne, posting what you think, even if it's not always the popular thing. :thumbsup:

[gypsysara]

Originally posted by glitter_fades
You seem to do quite well, Carne, posting what you think, even if it's not always the popular thing. :thumbsup:

I have to agree. Its a shame others with what they view as non popular opinions shy away. They should take a lead from Carne!

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by gypsysara
I have to agree. Its a shame others with what they view as non popular opinions shy away. They should take a lead from Carne!

Right, even if you disagree, go for it!

Now, firefly doesn't seem to mind going back and forth...but I've noticed the same posts are not made at both. The last post made at this board is not the same as the one made on Mick's board. The one from Mick's was posted here by someone else. Why not post that here, Fly?

Now, if I'm wrong and both are there...the one that dumps on this board, and the other where Cosar's post is disected with your comments...well if both are at Mick's board...it's my bad. I don't go there so I don't know everything on the boad there.

The post made only at Mick's is an example of what I mean by going back and forth with a forked tounge. The posts aren't totally different. The flames in the one only available at Mick's, where a lot of us can't go, are perhaps, a bit bigger than the sparks in the message posted here. Still, I defend everyone's right to go ahead and post away! Firefly, you're still welcome here even if your posts show your loyalties lie elsewhere.

[WindingRoad]

Originally posted by Cour
________________________________



Susieq started a thread on this board about the space the threads about the fanclub are using on the Rumours board. 2 people responded to her nicely and gave their point of view. What type of censorship was there in those posts that were so intimidating to the hundreds of other people who read this board, and the dozens who regularly post here?


This is the thread:
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/ledge/showthread.php?threadid=10320





Just to let you know, I have no problem with how that thread progressed. I wanted to express something that had been on my mind for several days. I did. I said it politely and had no expectations concerning the response I would get.

I did not continue the thread because there was so little response to it. To me, this means that most people don't feel as I do. Ok, I can live with that. I don't need to be right. I don't need to convince anybody that they should agree with me. If people agree, great. If they don't, that's ok too.

BUT AT NO TIME did I feel "bulleyed" or what was the other thing? "intimidated into silence or submission" or something like that. I simply moved on.

I've been a Ledgie since 2000. Had to change my ID because of server incompatability, but still stayed with this board. If I had ever felt that people were bulleyed here, I wouldn't have re-registered.

In the last few years, I've seen lots of people come and go. It happens on every message board I belong to. People who stir up trouble eventually leave. Usually as soon as you ignore them.

I can wait them out. :)

susieq :wavey:

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by WindingRoad
Just to let you know, I have no problem with how that thread progressed. I wanted to express something that had been on my mind for several days. I did. I said it politely and had no expectations concerning the response I would get.

I did not continue the thread because there was so little response to it. To me, this means that most people don't feel as I do. Ok, I can live with that. I don't need to be right. I don't need to convince anybody that they should agree with me. If people agree, great. If they don't, that's ok too.

BUT AT NO TIME did I feel "bulleyed" or what was the other thing? "intimidated into silence or submission" or something like that. I simply moved on.

I've been a Ledgie since 2000. Had to change my ID because of server incompatability, but still stayed with this board. If I had ever felt that people were bulleyed here, I wouldn't have re-registered.

In the last few years, I've seen lots of people come and go. It happens on every message board I belong to. People who stir up trouble eventually leave. Usually as soon as you ignore them.

I can wait them out. :)

susieq :wavey:

Thank you for sharing that Susieq. I have been a ledgie for a long time, but, this issue has gotten me more involved. I have never really been invovled with the boards, only to read them, but, I have a lot of friends on here and have made more and I would never in a million years want to make anyone feel bullied, even though I know I am hard nosed sometimes. Most of the time, I really try to focus on who I am angry with, and we all know who that is...haha.

I appreciated you bringing that view and opinion to our attention. It is not fair for one thing to take so much space, especially in this wonderful, exciting tour time. But, I also don't want it forgotten and put aside, so it is hard to maintain a balance. I am really glad that you did not feel intimidated or bullied. I enjoy reading your posts and I know that you are a nice person. Thank you so much for sharing that.. :wavey:

[gypsysara]

Im glad your more involved too Peace! :wavey:

[ERigby818]

Originally posted by David
As usual, I agree with Tommer.

You've got no business deleting entire threads on a silly whim.

I also agree with Tommer and I am disappointed the thread was deleted.
-Sonia

[seeknpeace]

Originally posted by gypsysara
Im glad your more involved too Peace! :wavey:

TY Stephanie...I have always been around, but, not vocal. It is so wonderful to "meet" so many great mac fans here..

[glitter_fades]

Originally posted by seeknpeace
Thank you for sharing that Susieq. I have been a ledgie for a long time, but, this issue has gotten me more involved. I have never really been invovled with the boards, only to read them, but, I have a lot of friends on here and have made more and I would never in a million years want to make anyone feel bullied, even though I know I am hard nosed sometimes. Most of the time, I really try to focus on who I am angry with, and we all know who that is...haha.

I appreciated you bringing that view and opinion to our attention. It is not fair for one thing to take so much space, especially in this wonderful, exciting tour time. But, I also don't want it forgotten and put aside, so it is hard to maintain a balance. I am really glad that you did not feel intimidated or bullied. I enjoy reading your posts and I know that you are a nice person. Thank you so much for sharing that.. :wavey:

Yes, susieq, thanks for letting us know your concerns. I hadn't thought about the bandwidth, as I said in your thread. Im glad you didn't feel intimidated and silenced in any way, since nothing of the kind was intended. No matter how hardline some of us seem about the issues surrounding the fan club, most fans concerned about the fan club are not unreasonable nor closed minded. We might sound like a broken record from time to time (a little annoying) but this forum is a place we've found welcome in keeping the important issues up for discussion. I hope people sick of hearing about it notice we're keeping the new threads down this weekend. Now and then the topic gets a rest...lol!...until the next BIG LIE about the fan club comes to light and needs to be discussed. I promise I'll try to keep my rants down to the bare minimum if nothing new comes along to warrant discussion.

I, too, was mostly a lurker here, but I've been registered since 2001. It was only after the fan club fiasco and getting unjustly banned from Mick's board that I decided to become more vocal. I began posting on the topic to help others deal with it more than for myself. As I've said before, I got my satisfaction from the fan club. They granted me a refund. I'm only keeping the topic going so others see it is not a lost cause seeking redress if you believe you are owed more than a mailbox full of useless emails and some lousy internet pictues in return for your $60 membership fee.
:wavey: :wavey: :wavey: