The Stevie of old... [Archive]

joe68

05-27-2003, 07:55 PM

Sometimes I look at her old tapes and I start to actually get sad, you know. Like, where is that person from back then? I have to say Stevie started to change during the Shake the cage tour; much more subdued, much more calm.

So happens my very first Stevie concert was the one Cloaks & Daggers came from. I listen to it now and Stevie is just so "out there". You never knew what was coming next. Amazing!

Referring to the maturation process: I don't know. Obviously that has something to do with it. But I find that Stevie's songs are just not as compelling as her old stuff either. Can anyone say there's just as much emotion in TISL as The Wild Heart? I don't feel it...

I like SYW, but I think the Mac ruined a great opportunity. Chris would have really added to this record and to leave her off of it because she didnt want to tour makes no sense to me. Stevie keeps saying, "What if Christine has the single...?". Well, what if she does? Lindsey had the single ("Big Love") right before he quit the band and I don't think it had any repurcussions on the 1987 tour.

Oh well, this is kind of a rant...but I know Stevie is getting older, but I'm getting older too...and I miss the dynamics she used to bring on stage.

goldie

05-27-2003, 07:58 PM

I feel the same way....I miss the 1975-1981 Stevie. Emphasis on 1976/1977. :)

I still love her with all my heart to this day - but it's not the same.

darklinensuit

05-27-2003, 09:38 PM

Here's what I think is going on.
Mind you, I'm not saying I AGREE with what's in Stevie's head, but this is what I think SHE'S thinking. JMHO.

For years, she shrieked at the mike, tore her voice apart, and the critics panned her for not singing right, and for how her voice would give out without warning, and how the long-term strain had ruined her voice.
These days, the critics praise her voice.

For years, Stevie spun and kicked and spread her arms under the shawls like they were wings. Critics called the young Stevie silly, and as she got older, they asked when she would grow up and realize she wasn't the doe-eyed ingenue anymore. They labeled her ridiculous, a caricature of the limited artist that she once was, in their opinions.
These days, Stevie mainly stands still, and the critics focus on her songwriting and vocals, which seems to be how she wants it.

For years, the critics labeled much of Stevie's best work as too airy-fairy. They PRAISED Sometimes it's a Bitch & Love's a Hard Game to Play as steps in the right direction, towards "harder-hitting" pop/rock.:rolleyes: (I cringe just at the thinking.)
The lower-brow stuff, the stuff she doesn't write --- Talk to Me, Every Day --- these are the kinds of songs Stevie has been encouraged to release as singles & to perform.

For years Stevie thrilled fans with costume changes, & the critics said she spent more time offstage than on during a show.

For years Stevie abused her body, & now she is committed to being the last one alive oin the rocking chair on the front porch. After drugs, saline leaks, failed eyes and pregnancies, heartbreaks and slipping sales totals, she feels the need to ease up. This is a compromise she made with herself, I think. A little over ten years ago she was saying she'd be out of the music business within five years. Here she is, still, but giving only what she believes she can afford to.

Importantly, I think that while Stevie has never sold out her fans or her artistry, she is a woman who has longed for approval for years and years. She is now getting critical acclaim, sales are back up, her voice is dependable, her looks are still celebrated, young rockers applaud her, etc., and she does not want to mess with what seems to be working. She's older, she's wiser, and she's probably afraid of risking the life she's carefully gathering around herself.

Less risk, more respect.

That's not a payoff to those of us here who have loved her over the years, who have loved her more creative endeavors, so it's frustrating for us.
Still, just the sound of her voice is a kind of payoff for me still.

As I wrote at the start, this is all my opinion. I'm sure there will be plenty who disagree, and maybe time will show I'm wrong. We'll hve to hang in to see.

- Jake

beach~gypsy

05-27-2003, 10:39 PM

~WOW~

what he ^ said :nod:

paleshadow

05-27-2003, 10:53 PM

I agree with what Jake said. Stevie is taking care of herself now. If she had done that from the start her voice would have been completely different all those years. Yeah, there are some great moments from the past, and her famous rasp. I get frustrated though when people seem to be upset that those days are gone. Would people prefer her to be coked up still just so she would spin till she fell off stage again? I think she sounds great now, and she's healthy. Plus she seems happier than she has in years.

Johnny Stew

05-28-2003, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by paleshadow
I get frustrated though when people seem to be upset that those days are gone. Would people prefer her to be coked up still just so she would spin till she fell off stage again?I feel the same way you do, and that's a point I've tried to make elsewhere.
While I love the "Stevie of old," and all the craziness that went along with her behaviour at that time, I love and adore "Today's Stevie," and wouldn't trade her for anything.

If Stevie had continued on with that lifestyle, she'd probably be dead by now... or a walking punchline, like Keith Richards.

And yes, her music today is unlike her music from 20 years ago (when 'The Wild Heart' was released, for example), but, again, I don't see it as being less passionate and intense, or any less compelling.
Her songwriting and vocal styling has matured and progressed, and apparently it's lost its excitement for some... but then, I tend to think it's very unfair for us to want her to still be what she was decades ago.
We're keeping her in a little box... never wanting her to age or change. Like a China doll.
She always has to be "Our Stevie"... exactly the way she was when we loved her best.

If someone wants that, I guess the only option is to focus on all of those old videos, concert recordings, and albums. Anytime I want a dose of the "Stevie of old," that's what I do. But generally, I much prefer what she's doing these days, and what she'll hopefully be doing in the future. :)

Even if I hadn't been a fan all those years ago, I KNOW I would become a fan now... so I guess I'm lucky in that aspect. :D

gldstwmn

05-28-2003, 01:06 AM

True. But what I wouldn't I give to see her cut loose at the end of Rhiannon or come creeping out tapping on a cowbell, or say something that doesn't make any god damn sense only it makes perfect sense. I was most electrified on this tour by Beautiful Child, Running Through The Garden and Destiny Rules. Now we're down to one of those songs and I listened to the Columbus boot tonight and Billy Corgan was right. F*cking brilliant! But safe and brilliant do not come hand in hand. If Stevie wants to be conservative, I'll still love her. But wouldn't it be cool for her to just cut loose a little? Think of the people who have never seen that side of her. Lindsey is getting a ton of praise for coming out of his shell. It almost seems they've switched stage personalities.

Miranda

05-28-2003, 02:24 AM

Villavic

05-28-2003, 03:29 AM

Well, I definitely miss the 5-members lineup.

About STevie, I agree about the studio versions. I don't find in SYW or TISL that feeling I heard and saw in Tusk, Rumours, and even Mirage or Tango.

But about the live performances, well, she's in her 50s. Obviously she needs to take care of herself. She can't give evrything from herself. I think that already paid it's toll (her voice was affected each year, each tour). And drugs addictions didn't help either. Now she needs to be very calm, I think.

The Tower

05-28-2003, 04:23 AM

Blah........ I ****ing miss Stevie......

She teases everyone by proving that she's still got it it ("Everybody Finds Out" and "Running Through the Garden") and then she blows it by pulling out "Stand Back", "Rhiannon" and "Dreams".....

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!

We KNOW that you wrote and have performed (beautifully, I might add) those songs.....

But..... if you care enough about your journals like you say you do, I would think that you would want some MORE of your words to get across to the "general public" (that translates to the few people who HAVEN'T heard your three major hit singles)

MY GAWD!!!!!!!!!!!

Your songwriting catalog of GREAT songs is HUGE

I could write an entire 20 song setlist from your fantastic career (not including the hits)........ and I think I will...

Here it is...... Stevie covering her entire song catalog in one setlist (in order, with Lindsey helping, of course :) )

Crying in the Night
Nightbird
Talk to Me
Julia
No Spoken Word
Wild Heart
Goodbye Baby
Sara
Nothing Ever Changes
Crystal
Blue Denim
Django/Races Are Run
Outside the Rain
That's Alright
The Second Time
Everybody Finds Out
Ooh, My Love (!!!)
Storms
Garbo
Has Anyone Ever Written Anything For You?

This would be the greatest concert EVER!!!! And don't get me wrong- I can do the same for Lindsey.....

Countdown
Tango in the Night
Never Going Back Again
Miranda
Don't Let Me Down Again
Eyes of the World
Surrender the Rain (aahhh the greatest, with the intro....)
Down With Rodeo
Say Goodbye
Walk A Thin Line
I'm So Afraid
All My Sorrows
Come
You Do or You Don't
Save Me a Place (!!!!)
Monday Morning
Peacekeeper
Go Insane
Soul Drifter...... (oh my gawd!)
Frozen Love

SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE it can can be done!!!!! Without ****ing "Rhiannon" and without ****ing "Go Your Own Way"!!!!!!

YOU GUYS HAVE WRITTEN GREAT SONGS THAT NO ONE HAS HEARD!!!! WHY TH **** DON'T YOU PLAY THEM LIVE......?????? I WOULD, IF I COULD

Vianna

05-28-2003, 06:16 AM

the rest of the audience unfortunately doesn't want that. I wish they did, God knows. I agree there is so much beautiful music these two people have written that never gets performed on stage.

We have to remember we are hard-core fanatic Fleetwood Mac fans=:-)I mean I'd just love to be their roadie, wash their dishes whatever just to be able to hear them play every night.

My guess is the majority of the concert goers never pursued the Mac much beyond Rumours and that's all they want to hear.

Unfortunate for us.

Sometimes I think they should give a concert or two just for us hard-core fanatic fans...wouldn't that be fabulous?

or do one of those Live By Request shows?that A&E puts out now and then?

Lee

05-28-2003, 07:43 AM

They may be many reasons why Stevie is not the same Stevie on stage now:

1. She's not well. Rumors are there's a hip problem, & she's going through menopause which tends to tire you out.

2. She's trying to save her voice.

3. She's letting Lindsey take the spotlight more, maybe b/c she's not well & is just letting Lindsey take the lead so to speak or b/c she's wants Lindsey to get a chance to show his stuff during this tour.

JMO.

Lee :)

DeeGeMe

05-28-2003, 07:49 AM

Yes, the majority of the audience are going to see Fleetwood Mac, and that means the Fleetwood Mac they remember--the hits, not the more obscure songs that we diehards want to hear. Or as James Taylor once put it in "That's Why I'm Here":

Fortune and fame's such a curious game
Perfect strangers call you by name
Pay good money to hear Fire and Rain
Again and again and again

CarneVaca

05-28-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by joe68
I find that Stevie's songs are just not as compelling as her old stuff either. Can anyone say there's just as much emotion in TISL as The Wild Heart? I don't feel it...

Well, there's something I've been saying for a while. The problem is a writer has to grow, to keep challenging him/herself to remain creative. And though Stevie has evolved in some ways, she absolutely has refused to truly grow. She uses the same chords over and over, she refuses to edit herself and she keeps going back to the old tired topics. I can deal with her new voice, which still grates on me occasionally, but the substandard writing has no excuse. I've said it before here: Focus on quality rather than quantity.

Maybe she doesn't believe in the stuff herself, hence the lack of emotion. How many lost-love songs can you write before you start boring yourself? Unfortunately, when she tackles other topics, she merely taps the surface, never really giving us much substance. I'm thinking of things like "Desert Angel" and, I almost hate to say it, "Illume."

When I compare Illume to the stuff Bruce Springsteen did, it's like a superficial MSNBC segment versus the PBS special on the six firefighters who rode their bikes across the country to thank the nation for their support in the aftermath of 9/11. Stevie's writing is uninspired in this song; it's an indulgent fear fest. Bruce, on the other hand, tackles that day and its aftermath in a sensitive, sensible and compassionate way.

I don't expect Stevie to stand on stage and scream her head off anymore. But I have the right to expect better writing.

Finally, to say she is "letting" Lindsey take the spotlight on this tour is just silly. Look at footage from Lindsey going back to the Tusk tour. He was always electric. But since Stevie spent most of the time off stage back then, when she came back on and twirled, people noticed. No doubt, her stage presence was magnificent. Now, with her standing there like a mere stage prop and Lindsey continuing to give it his all, people understandably notice him more.

Lee

05-28-2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Finally, to say she is "letting" Lindsey take the spotlight on this tour is just silly. Look at footage from Lindsey going back to the Tusk tour. He was always electric. But since Stevie spent most of the time off stage back then, when she came back on and twirled, people noticed. No doubt, her stage presence was magnificent. Now, with her standing there like a mere stage prop and Lindsey continuing to give it his all, people understandably notice him more.

Hmmm. . . well, silly or not, I've never seen the any footage of the Tusk tour. I'm just going by what I've seen of The Dance & on. Silly old me is just stating my opinion!

Lee :mad:

strandinthewind

05-28-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Unfortunately, when she tackles other topics, she merely taps the surface, never really giving us much substance. I'm thinking of things like "Desert Angel" and, I almost hate to say it, "Illume."

I know.

Although I really like if not love Illume, esp. the brilliant guitar at the beginning, I just think it could have been great instead of just really good. She totally has me until the diamond/jade part. Her voice in the "cliffdweller" (I love that line) initial segment positively dances for me. Then, I just do not get why she essentially repeats the chorus so many times a la "Say You Will" and adds that gimmicky voice thing (I blame LB for this as he apprently loves it :cool: ). Then, she emerges from that gimmick with one of best vocals I've heard (and there are many past and present) with the pain inducing, longing, almost tearful final "I'm alone now, with my thoughts . . . . la la la la lalalalalalala." That part of the song along with the beginning part I mentioned give me chills to this day after may many listens and may even occasioanlly shed a tear or two if booze is involved :]

But, I must say, many think the song is great the way it is. So, "who am I to [bring them] down" Also, maybe I am the one who does not get it. For example, maybe she and LB intentionally did the whole gimmicky and repetitious thing in an effort to punctuate the effect of her voice in the last part I mentioned. If that was their goal, they acheived it in a big way as that last vocal initially surprised me and I now cannot wait to "get thorugh" (a la the song's theme) the heavy middle part and hear her passion as if she has also gotten through it. In any event, I like the song and am not slamming it. I am just adding my unlearned in comparison $0.02 for LB and SN if they are listening :cool:

On another topic, I totally think that SN is intentionally somehwat demure when others are on stage or when others have a solo or even a solo in one of her songs. As I have said many times, right or wrong, I think it would take just one twirl during the GYOW solo and 90% of the eyes would leave LB and go, even if just for minute or a few seconds, to the pretty dervish. This would be in my opinion wrong if she did it too much (hey one twirl wouldn't kill it :] ) as it is the FM, not SN solo, tour. So, I say kudos to her for giving space to others so they can shine just as brightly.

Also, although I have not seen this tour yet (7 more days :blob1: :blob2: :blob1: ), I think LB in the past has also done this. For example, when SN was vocally way into Landslide or during Sara or SOTM. In fact, in some past performances, he would be in the background and in some cases sitting on the drum riser while SN had the spotlight for Landslide and certainly his guitar playing is at least half of that song. Interstingly, they also both "gave the light" so to speak (as if it is anyone's to "give" :cool:) to CM during songbird.

So, who know for sure, but I think it is great that SN and LB are now seemingly perhaps even more respectful of each other.

stefan

05-28-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by joe68

I like SYW, but I think the Mac ruined a great opportunity. Chris would have really added to this record and to leave her off of it because she didnt want to tour makes no sense to me. Stevie keeps saying, "What if Christine has the single...?".
I don`t agree on this. Ruining a great opportunity? To me it`s a really good record. And regarding Christines latest contributions after Lindsey had left: I didn`t feel like Christine had too many good and new ideas to offer

Originally posted by joe68

Well, what if she does? Lindsey had the single ("Big Love") right before he quit the band and I don't think it had any repurcussions on the 1987 tour.

Well I absolutely don't agree on that :laugh: Replacing Lindsey was an impossible thing to do and these two guys tried their best but it was a huge loss seeing the band in Dortmund back in 1988 without Lindsey. (my only FM concert experience)

The one thing I too would like to be different: FM and especially Lindsey should get away from this "big formula" thing. They all have enough money (except of Mick I guess) and why don`t they get rid of this major label to release records more often and to tour in smaller venues. Tom Waits or a lot of other artists, who play here in 200-1000 seat clubs can do it. Why can`t they? Then they wouldn't need to play all the boring Rumours stuff no more.

And a last point regarding Stevie and her contributions to SYW. I think her songs are far better than on TISL. Except of the clunker Silver girl which would have fit perfectly on her solo things. Some people hate Illume other ones love this track. Most people love EFO or Smile at you. The point is- I think some of her songs are quite different than we were used to and that`s a fine surprise. Her voice is pretty good and a lot of people were happy with her stage performance/vocal performance.

I`m glad they are doing this tour. They seem to be in good shape so I wouldn`t worry.

The Tower

05-28-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
And though Stevie has evolved in some ways, she absolutely has refused to truly grow. She uses the same chords over and over, she refuses to edit herself and she keeps going back to the old tired topics. I can deal with her new voice, which still grates on me occasionally, but the substandard writing has no excuse. I've said it before here: Focus on quality rather than quantity.

Maybe she doesn't believe in the stuff herself, hence the lack of emotion. How many lost-love songs can you write before you start boring yourself? Unfortunately, when she tackles other topics, she merely taps the surface, never really giving us much substance. I'm thinking of things like "Desert Angel" and, I almost hate to say it, "Illume."

When I compare Illume to the stuff Bruce Springsteen did, it's like a superficial MSNBC segment versus the PBS special on the six firefighters who rode their bikes across the country to thank the nation for their support in the aftermath of 9/11. Stevie's writing is uninspired in this song; it's an indulgent fear fest. Bruce, on the other hand, tackles that day and its aftermath in a sensitive, sensible and compassionate way.

I don't expect Stevie to stand on stage and scream her head off anymore. But I have the right to expect better writing.

Finally, to say she is "letting" Lindsey take the spotlight on this tour is just silly. Look at footage from Lindsey going back to the Tusk tour. He was always electric. But since Stevie spent most of the time off stage back then, when she came back on and twirled, people noticed. No doubt, her stage presence was magnificent. Now, with her standing there like a mere stage prop and Lindsey continuing to give it his all, people understandably notice him more.

Carne.... usually I appreciate your usual "devil's advocate"/Stevie bashing/Lindsey blow jobbing rhetoric, but all of this above stuff is just crap.

First of all, if anyone is guilty of using the same tired chords over and over and over again, it's Bruce Springsteen.... HELLLO!!! How many ****ing songs can you have that are I IV V7 over and over and over and over and over..... Springsteen is an unoriginal Dylan ripoff. "The Rising" sucked ass and didn't have an original bone in its body. Any song that has "Na na na na na" as a lyric is a piece of ****.

At least Stevie has conviction to stand up and represent her same tired old chords over and over and over. And at least she can sing fer chrissakes... Springsteen can barely burp these days- not like he ever could before... ("Oh, but he's SUCH an ARTIST !!!!") F**k off, ya **** (In all my best Christine McVie British humour.....). I would rather hear Stevie rip out another Am - G - F major 7th Rhiannon ripoff with passionate lyrics and delivery any day over the bull**** music that's out there today (stupid American Idol suckfests and rap bull**** NOISE).

"Substandard writing"?!?!?!?!? WTF is that?!?!? Almost every single pop song since the Beatles is based on the same few chord progressions. The only thing that separates stars from other musicians is charisma. Yeah, yer damn right Springsteen has charisma- and that's the only reason why he's where he is today, just like Stevie... AND Lindsey for that matter. No amount of production wizardry and "superior writing" could get Gift of Screws released without the power and charisma of Stevie Nicks and that's the plain ****ing truth of the matter.

Lindsey has never been a bigger show stopper or larger charismatic stage presence than Stevie.... EVER! His guitar playing is better than just about anyone out there today. His voice is STILL screaming and fantastic at 53. However...... if you are going to go on and on about someone using the same chords over and over again then Lindsey is more guilty than most. Hell, his entire contribution to Tusk was only three or four chords... "Save Me a Place" and "Walk A Thin Line" were really his only great contributions to that album. "Not That Funny", "I Know I'm Not Wrong", "The Ledge", and "Tusk" were all pretty much one or two chord throwaway duplicates of each other.

Stevie has more stage presence with moving one finger than Lindsey has in breaking all six strings of his guitar and shrieking his vocal chords to death on a piece of **** like "Come". I would much rather hear Stevie pouring out the warmth and radiance of a standard pop song like "Say You Will" any day... You can't get vocals like that from any other music star these days. One can actually FEEL her words when she sings them- you can FEEL the meaning of

"Say you will, say you will
Give me one more chance
At least give me time to change your mind
That always seems to heal the wounds
If I can.... get you to dance....."

I absolutely can see Stevie sitting at the piano and playing the simple chord progression of that song and POURING her heart out to Christine McVie- begging her to come back to the band.

"Substandard songwriting"??? I don't think "Ilume" is all that great either, but I think "Desert Angel" was a masterpiece of emotion that most "artists" today can't even touch.

"Well, I live below... a great, red mountain....
In the shade of a great, huge beast....
In a place the Indians call... Paradise Valley....
Well, well, this has ALWAYS been my sanctuary-
I send that to you, TOO!!!"

PASSION! One can't find out there much any more.... And I DO expect Stevie to stand on stage and scream her head off 'cause I know she can do it, dammit!!! All you have to do is open your ears and realize that on "Everybody Finds Out" she's ripping a B flat, which she hasn't done since The Wild Heart. Jeez, the woman is 54 and her voice sounds just as good as it did 25 years ago.

Both Lindsey AND Stevie deserve kudos for being who they are today and for still being vital, passionate artists.

SmthngOfADreamr

05-28-2003, 12:25 PM

Just to add my 2 cents about Illume :o

I love it. It's just what I expected it to be. It's totally Stevie, and I love what Lindsey did with it. I really love everything about it, even the weird Lindsey voice. I love the lyrics, ESPECIALLY 'trade you for jade.' The only lyric I dislike "it's just like a river, it's never ending," but we've heard worse, so I can overlook that.

The other thing is, I have no desire whatsoever to want to compare it to tired old 'Dreams' or sleepy old 'Rhiannon.' Examine it from what it is, not based upon songs that were written 30 years ago. And even if we don't think about it in 1970's terms, how dare we remark upon what the song "could have been?" It's not our creation so it's not our place to do that.

The Rising does NOTHING for me, but that's just me. The two songs are not even in the same league.

strandinthewind

05-28-2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr
Just to add my 2 cents about Illume :o

I love it. It's just what I expected it to be. It's totally Stevie, and I love what Lindsey did with it. I really love everything about it, even the weird Lindsey voice. I love the lyrics, ESPECIALLY 'trade you for jade.' The only lyric I dislike "it's just like a river, it's never ending," but we've heard worse, so I can overlook that.

The other thing is, I have no desire whatsoever to want to compare it to tired old 'Dreams' or sleepy old 'Rhiannon.' Examine it from what it is, not based upon songs that were written 30 years ago. And even if we don't think about it in 1970's terms, how dare we remark upon what the song "could have been?" It's not our creation so it's not our place to do that.

The Rising does NOTHING for me, but that's just me. The two songs are not even in the same league.

I was not saying SN should do anything I say. Who am I to tell her what to do and she obviously has done very well without my $0.02 :]

I was just praising the song and then saying I would have done it differently which I think is not wrong or out of place for me to do. In fact, I think everyone on some level does this mental exercise everyday in many different ways about people actions, the clothes they wear, the way buildings look, people's driving, etc. But, if I offended you I am sorry for offending you as that was not my intent. :cool:

SmthngOfADreamr

05-28-2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I was not saying SN should do anything I say. Who am I to tell her what to do and she obviously has done very well without my $0.02 :]

I was just praising the song and then saying I would have done it differently which I think is not wrong or out of place for me to do. In fact, I think everyone on some level does this mental exercise everyday in many different ways about people actions, the clothes they wear, the way buildings look, people's driving, etc. But, if I offended you I am sorry for offending you as that was not my intent. :cool:

I wasn't talking about you, silly :D No offense taken. In fact, I agree with most everything you said.

strandinthewind

05-28-2003, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr
I wasn't talking about you, silly :D No offense taken. In fact, I agree with most everything you said.

I was thinking - Yipes - I was so careful in my earlier post!!!!!!!!

Oops eee daisee on my part!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

CarneVaca

05-28-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by The Tower
Any song that has "Na na na na na" as a lyric is a piece of ****.
...
("Oh, but he's SUCH an ARTIST !!!!") F**k off, ya **** (In all my best Christine McVie British humour.....). I would rather hear Stevie rip out another Am - G - F major 7th Rhiannon ripoff with passionate lyrics and delivery any day over the bull**** music that's out there today (stupid American Idol suckfests and rap bull**** NOISE).

"Substandard writing"?!?!?!?!? WTF is that?!?!? ... No amount of production wizardry and "superior writing" could get Gift of Screws released without the power and charisma of Stevie Nicks and that's the plain ****ing truth of the matter...
...

"Substandard songwriting"??? I don't think "Ilume" is all that great either, but I think "Desert Angel" was a masterpiece of emotion that most "artists" today can't even touch.

"Well, I live below... a great, red mountain....
In the shade of a great, huge beast....
In a place the Indians call... Paradise Valley....
Well, well, this has ALWAYS been my sanctuary-
I send that to you, TOO!!!"

Dude, take a deep breath. Wash your keyboard out with some soap, then talk to me. Meanwhile I'll keep laughing about your defense of Desert Angel.

Johnny Stew

05-28-2003, 02:29 PM

Personally, I love Stevie's musings on love & heartbreak.
She writes about romanticism in all of its bittersweet glory, and she does it better than just about anyone else.

I've never tired of the thematic basis of her songs, and I highly doubt I ever will. The chord structures might not be "original," but the heart and soul behind the songs is always unique and genuine.

I don't listen to music to hear about politics or starvation or children dying... that's what I watch CNN for. I'm reasonably intelligent and well-read... I don't need preached to.
I listen to music to be taken away to another place.

And while it may be escapist entertainment at its heart, it also moves me, uplifts me, and empowers me... and those qualities are always evident in Stevie's songs. From her earliest to her latest.
Her heart and soul shines through every one of them, and it never seems as if she's trying to beat you over the head with flashy bric-a-brac, or trying to prove something to God knows who.
Stevie is a woman in her 50s, who seems quite comfortable in her skin... she's not still suffering from growing pains or some unresolved bruised-ego angst.
She's also well aware of the fact that what she's writing won't change the world... but that it may brighten the world of those in her audience, and that's what inspires her to keep writing about love and all of its trappings.

If that means she hasn't grown in her writing, then so be it. She doesn't have to prove anything to me, she just has to continue writing songs that keep me coming back for more... and she's still doing that.
And apparently there are many others who feel the way I do. :)

blinker12

05-28-2003, 02:51 PM

Tower, you make a brilliant point in comparing Stevie's much-maligned chord progressions to Springsteen's. His aren't any more original than hers _ perhaps less so.
And in fact, I think there's recent evidence that Stevie is pushing herself in new directions musically. Have we ever heard a progression from her like the one she uses on the chorus of "Say You Will"? Not that I recall. She uses pretty much all the chords in the key... I didn't know she knew that many!
The lyrics also have a discipline that she hasn't always displayed before.
Of course, then she turns out a snoozer like "Silver Girl" to keep us from getting too excited. I like the song OK, but it's a "paint-by-numbers" track for her. Same old chords, and the lyrics are about as graceful as a ton of bricks.

The Tower

05-28-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Dude, take a deep breath. Wash your keyboard out with some soap, then talk to me. Meanwhile I'll keep laughing about your defense of Desert Angel.

Oh, don't be so mean!!! :D C'mon... you know you're a closeted Desert Angel lover..... It's a classic!!!

;)

CarneVaca

05-28-2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by The Tower
Oh, don't be so mean!!! :D C'mon... you know you're a closeted Desert Angel lover..... It's a classic!!!

;)

:laugh: I'm mean!?

ERigby818

05-28-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I really like if not love Illume, esp. the brilliant guitar at the beginning, I just think it could have been great instead of just really good. She totally has me until the diamond/jade part. Her voice in the "cliffdweller" (I love that line) initial segment positively dances for me. Then, I just do not get why she essentially repeats the chorus so many times a la "Say You Will" and adds that gimmicky voice thing (I blame LB for this as he apprently loves it :cool: ). Then, she emerges from that gimmick with one of best vocals I've heard (and there are many past and present) with the pain inducing, longing, almost tearful final "I'm alone now, with my thoughts . . . . la la la la lalalalalalala." That part of the song along with the beginning part I mentioned give me chills to this day after may many listens and may even occasioanlly shed a tear or two if booze is involved :]

Well said :). That sums up a lot of how I feel about Illume. It's really grown on me. At first I didn't like the melody, and now I do, but ever since the first listen it clicked with me emotionally. It's very intense. I agree with you 100% about the cliffdweller line, and the "I'm alone now" vocal which follows the weird Lindsey whisper part. I also agree about there being too many choruses .

I also agree with SmthngOfADreamr...I totally dig the "trade you for jade" lyric and am not crazy about the "like a river" analogy.

I love this song, but I can see how someone who might not be a fan of newer Stevie stuff might not like it, like Carne.
I feel like this is one of those songs that you have to be really really really into the artist to love, because you are so familiar with that artist's work and love it that you sort of have to take a less "mainstream" sounding (for lack of a better word) song into context. I think there are plenty of Lindsey songs that have that same quality. Dont Look Down, for instance. For someone who's not really a Lindsey fan, hearing that "oh-oh-oh-awww" in the chorus, might sound weird, but for the Lindsey fan, it makes you smile, and is totally thrilling and you just love the sound because it's a classic expression of his style. You have to love it!:]

What I also love is the range of opinions and tastes on this board.
-Sonia

gypsysara

05-28-2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Stevie is a woman in her 50s, who seems quite comfortable in her skin... she's not still suffering from growing pains or some unresolved bruised-ego angst.

:) With all due respect Johnny (and you know Im a Stevie-nut), I feel she does have unresolved angst to some degree, always will. Its part of what makes Stevie - Stevie. Unresolved loves. Unresolved feelings. Feelings of loves lost. Id hate to see her writing style change so much (if it does), cause I admire her outpouring writing style - like you can see a window into her soul.

I agree though, she is comfortable with who she is in her 50's and she should be proud too (IMO)!

Johnny Stew

05-28-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by gypsysara
:) With all due respect Johnny (and you know Im a Stevie-nut), I feel she does have unresolved angst to some degree, always will.I knew that was a dangerous statement to make! :laugh:
I tried to word it as carefully as possible, but I figured someone might call me on it anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree that Stevie's has some unresolved feelings as far as her love life is concerned... unrequited romances, and relationships that died a painful death. She also has an optimism that love *can* work, however difficult it may be to find. Which is where the subject matter of her songs is born.

But what I was trying to say in my statement, is that i don't think Stevie has any unresolved issues as far as proving herself to anyone. I don't think she has a need anymore to say, "Look at me! Look what I can do!"
She seemed to have those issues in the '80s... when she was practically determined to ruin her health in order to prove that she rocked just as hard as the guys.
But I don't think she has that angst anymore. She seems comfortable in her role now, and that was definitely hard won. I feel she has every right to enjoy her "niche" in rock music's pantheon.
I don't see that as resting on one's laurels, or taking the safe approach... I see that as enjoying what your life has given you, and the fact that you're still alive to do what you love to do best. :D

darklinensuit

05-28-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I knew that was a dangerous statement to make! :laugh:
I tried to word it as carefully as possible, but I figured someone might call me on it anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree that Stevie's has some unresolved feelings as far as her love life is concerned... unrequited romances, and relationships that died a painful death. She also has an optimism that love *can* work, however difficult it may be to find. Which is where the subject matter of her songs is born.

But what I was trying to say in my statement, is that i don't think Stevie has any unresolved issues as far as proving herself to anyone. I don't think she has a need anymore to say, "Look at me! Look what I can do!"
She seemed to have those issues in the '80s... when she was practically determined to ruin her health in order to prove that she rocked just as hard as the guys.
But I don't think she has that angst anymore. She seems comfortable in her role now, and that was definitely hard won. I feel she has every right to enjoy her "niche" in rock music's pantheon.
I don't see that as resting on one's laurels, or taking the safe approach... I see that as enjoying what your life has given you, and the fact that you're still alive to do what you love to do best. :D

I know what you're saying, and I want it to be true, but I'm still skeptical. I think Stevie saw everything fall out of her hands again in 1994, and she's determined to avoid going back to that miserable place. She wants to prove herself still, just maybe in a different way. She's determined to be a role model, the Rock Stateswoman & Mentor to new artists, and she never wants to be overwhelmingly panned by the critics again (not that anybody would, of course). I think she's at the point in her life where age & wisdom convince her she can't please everybody, but she is still determined to keep the ground she's staked in the last few years. Again, JMHO.

- Jake

mchakram

05-28-2003, 11:01 PM

Okay, I have only posted once or twice on here before, and usually I just enjoy reading everyone else's opinions, but I feel like I gotta speak up here too and spread the love for Stevie.
To put my views in context, I just finished my freshman year of college--I have been a fan of Stevie and FM since my sophomore year of high school. Coming along at the time I did (too late for the Dance...), I got exposed to "Old Stevie" and "New Stevie" at the same time--and I have found that I love both equally. And although I haven't been a fan nearly as long as many here, I think I am about as familiar with her work as most of the hardcore enthusiasts here--from BN to now, with all the solo and studio and demos between (although I must admit I still have yet to listen to a LB solo album--once I get some money, I am off to buy one).
Now, I definitely love crazy coked-out gibberish-screaming mike-thrashing Stevie, for her passion and her anger and her mysticism. The Rosebud video gives me chills every time. When I am in the throes of painful young adult love, I turn on Outside the Rain or Gold Dust Woman and scream my head off with her. But now I think we all see that she is indeed calmer and older (and I think bolder too). There is something very healing in her newer writing. And yeah, every once in a while I wince at a clunky lyric ("it hurts my self esteem, it hurts my everything" comes to mind--but her voice is so exquisite on it that I can get past it). And I am actually a fan of "Silver Girl"--I can't read the lyrics seriously, but somehow the song does it for me.
I think that if we look closely at her songs then and now, we do see growth and maturation without losing the passion. Fall From Grace and Everybody Finds Out are, I think, as passionate and intense as anything from the 70s or 80s. And Say You Will is an excellent example of growth and change (the closest song I can think of sound-wise is Angel, but it is still very different), with Stevie feeling the intensity of the romance without becoming at all over-dramatic or self-indulgent. As far as I can see, she is still the passionate rock priestess from before, just older and stronger and calmer.
As for Illume, I love it. I don't understand what deeper truth or statement she should be trying to make--she is simply tapping into the incredibly powerful feeling of the experience. Illume is really the only 9/11 song that doesn't grate on me as cliche or exploitative or overly-political. Yeah, she repeats some lyrics, but it creates that hypnotic feeling of confusion and numbness that the event created. And the passion and feeling in her voice is, in my opinion, possibly the most powerful I have ever heard it in the studio. (It strikes me that she may have good reason for not doing it live--my voice and throat are worn out after I just sing it in the car!)
Now, as for live performances, I guess I can't offer as much of an opinion. I caught the TISL tour, and I could feel the energy from the lawn of the venue--so if people feel like she is stronger on this tour, I can't wait. Maybe I'm just lucky that I wasn't alive to be at the performances from decades past. But I know I am lucky to get to see the ones now.
Whew, this has been long--sorry if it was repetitive or pointless. I guess all I really want to say is:
She's still alive and rocking, and that's pretty damn cool.

~Matt

cliffdweller

05-29-2003, 12:57 AM

As for Christine opting out, what would be the point of her working on the record and not touring to support the material? That wouldn't make any sense. Sure, I love Christine and the first time I heard SYW I was hearing little holes in songs that could have used her harmony and would have been the better for it. I also think that SYW is in dire need of some Chris songs to even out the feel of the album and complete the brilliant Mac chemistry. For instance, To Steal Your Heart Away is my favorite song on the album, mainly because it captures the classic Mac three part harmony and sunny California pop, and of course this is due in large part to Christine McVie's back up vocal.

However, she decided that her personal life is more important than being a slave to the road and who can blame her really? I have a sneaking suspicion though that she might turn up when they tour the U.K. Just a speculation, I hope it happens though.

Janet

05-29-2003, 02:18 AM

Johnny Stew, you are totally right.

I don't think Stevie needs to prove herself anymore.

I think she knows where she stands, and she doesn't need to jump out, wear tiny outfits and scream her head off. She could just stand there and everyone would scream...so she knows that and just gives enough so she isn't wearing herself out.

We must remember, this is a long tour, she needs to preserve her strength.

Im 25 and I know after 20 shows even, I'd be dead.

CarneVaca

05-29-2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by mchakram
As for Illume, I love it. I don't understand what deeper truth or statement she should be trying to make--she is simply tapping into the incredibly powerful feeling of the experience. Illume is really the only 9/11 song that doesn't grate on me as cliche or exploitative or overly-political. Yeah, she repeats some lyrics, but it creates that hypnotic feeling of confusion and numbness that the event created.

Matt, welcome to the board. Since I brought up Illume, let me explain. I guess I should have picked on Silver Girl, which is beyond stupid, but oh well.

Why do I think Illume misses the mark? I am in Manhattan everyday. I saw the towers fall, and not on TV. I was fortunate not to have to dodge the debris that day, but I came in contact with a lot of people who did. I remember people breaking down on the streets, in the train, talking about nothing else... This went on for weeks. The sheer terror of that day will stay with me forever, as I know it will with everybody else who experienced it.

Having said that, when I first heard Illume I simply had to scratch my head and say, Just what the hell is she talking about? She's talking about Point Dume. I understand the reference to the fire,if that's what she was doing, but what does it have to do with 18 crazed lunatics driving planes into buildings? Then the song gets weirder: coastal cities, ocean blending into cities. Jade? Diamonds?

Sorry, it doesn't ring true to me. I can see this was her experience that day, but to release a song that is so self-indulgent about a day that affected so many has rubbed me the wrong way. This is why I brought up Springsteen. In his album The Rising, he looked at the event and the aftermath from as many angles as he could, and rather than fill the songs with cliches, he made observations that really struck at the core. I remember when the album came out how many people who were directly affected by the event thanked Bruce for his wonderful work. To his work, I could relate. If Stevie hadn't made 9/11 the subtitle of her song, we really wouldn't even know what the hell she's talking about.

That Stevie Nicks was burning candles and incense that day means nothing to me. That she was "just so scared" I can understand, but why not try some empathy in writing the song rather than just indulging in your own fears? Had she written about the eerie silence broken only by sirens, the under-siege feel of the day with fighter jets overhead, the agony of being unable to contact your loved ones, the utter sense of helplessness in wanting to help people who were suffering, the trance-like look of disbelief in people's eyes, the shocking heartbreak of it all... then I would feel differently.

I can't even relate to the "I'm alone now" line. There was a sense of community in the aftermath of 9/11 that was absolutely antithetical to the way of life in New York. We were all in this together.

Having said that, I like the feel of the song. The droning quality of if is quite appropriate, but the lyrics are a letdown.

Illume says the candle that I burn
A reflection in the window
All the way to Point Dume
Illume-like it dances
I am a cliff dweller
From the old school

I like the coastal cities
I like the lights
I like the way the ocean blends
Into the city at night
It's like living on a working river
This coastline is glittering
Like a diamond snake
In a black sky

I am alone now
With my thoughts
Oh how we could make it
Of how we could get out
What we've been through
All of the trauma
The smell of Nag Champa
Shadow of a stranger

I will not take you for granted
I wouldn't trade it for jade
Or for diamonds
Not for a minute
Not for anything
I need you to be there
Just remember when I am haunted
That I was just scared

I am alone now...

What I saw on this journey
I saw history go down
I cannot pretend
That the heartache falls away
It's just like a river
Ooh, it's never ending
I cannot pretend
That the heartache falls away

Because I
It's just like a river
It's never ending
It's just like a river
It's never ending

I am alone now...
What I saw on this journey...
I am alone now....
What I saw on this journey...

SmthngOfADreamr

05-29-2003, 08:51 AM

I live and work in Manhattan as well and for me the song touches home, but that very well could be because I am extremely familiar with Stevie's writing style.

Illume is not about the terror of that day. To question what it has to do with lunitics crashing planes into buildings misses the point. The song is about emotions. It is a retrospect of all the feelings that were experienced on that day. That why she's "alone now with her thoughts." Now being a time during which she is reflecting on what happened on that day, not on 9/11 itself. We all know that Stevie writes from her journal, so I think it's only natural for her to write about her experiences.

Everyone had a personal experience on that day. Why do you think people were crying on the train? What do you think people were talking about for weeks after? THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and they connected with the whole of humanity. Kind of like "how WE could make it, how WE could get out..."

Just to clear a few things up: I believe Point Dume is an actual geographical location near where she lives in California. What that has to do with 9/11, I'm not sure, but I do recall this from an interview.

I don't see what's so strange about making a reference to costal cities either, consdering New York is one. And I also enjoy the imagery of the ocean blending into the city. Go to the Hudson or East River bank, or the "ocean" (which at that point is more of a bay) in lower Manhattan. They way the reflections of the city and water blend is beautiful on a clear night.
I'm not going to sit her and justify all the lyrics, because an interpretation is a personal thing. If you don't like the song I respect that , but remember that one man's trash is another man's treasure.

CarneVaca

05-29-2003, 09:06 AM

Dreamer, you pretty much validated what I said. You are OK with her approach to the song, but I find it self-indulgent. In thinking back I remember the uncertainty of how I would get out of Manhattan and get home, and just reminding myself that even if I had to sleep on the curb and get home the next day, I'd still be one of the lucky ones. And the way the song comes across is, "I'm so afraid, what's gonna happen to me?" and doesn't seem to convey empathy for those who were suffering. Maybe it's supposed to, but I don't see it.

As for the Point Dume reference, there is a reserve in California that's gone up in flames once or twice recently. I believe that may be what she was getting at.

As for the coastal city reference, I get the New York reference. But, and I'm sure you disagree, as someone who's seen New York from many angles, including from the water and from the air, it does not blend into the ocean, not even figuratively. Of that I am sure. But then again, that is just a minor point.

If you find comfort in this song, that's great. For me, it's just fallen kind of flat.

strandinthewind

05-29-2003, 09:15 AM

I think in Illume, she refers to her actions once the TISL tour was over and she returned to her LA house. She lit a candle called Illume, burned some incense, and stared out of the window to Point Dume to begin the reflection. Then once she was alone with her thoughts and smelled the incense, she began to think:

I am alone now
With my thoughts
Oh how we could make it
Of how we could get out
What we've been through
All of the trauma
The smell of Nag Champa
Shadow of a stranger

So, I think the song is her reflection a few months later on what went down that day, what she lost personally, her efforts to help other people by loaning her tour bus and other things I have heard rumored but cannot confirm, and her commitment and contribution to society to take people away from it all for two hours in concert when what she wanted to do was go home and hide from the terror that scared her. I also think that while it is very obscure, the line "smell of nag champra" is chilling to me in that she had to burn it while in NYC on 9/11 to help alleviate the "acrid" smell of the burning buildings and, God help their souls, the associated smell of the over 3,000 people that were also burned (tears!). Once I understood that line, I cannot escape that image. Same goes for "sahdow of a stranger." That, in my opinion, is what makes her brilliant in her own way. Also, her songs will never be consistently literal because as LB has said, she romanticizes her romanticism :cool:

Also, I think she refers to the LA coastline, not NYC, when she is staring out of her LA home window and seeing the LA coastline.

cliffdweller

05-29-2003, 11:06 AM

CarneVaca,
Just because Stevie didn't write a song about 9/11 that echoes a community sense in the same vein as Bruce Springsteen or whoever else doesn't mean that her feelings were not authentic or worthy of being expressed. We can't fault someone for expressing themselves in their own way, we all got through 9/11 the best way(s) we could. The lyric "...of how WE could make it, how WE could get out, what WE'VE been through"...etc. gives me the impression that Stevie is thinking about how the attacks affected the whole of humanity not just herself. Anyway, Stevie has always been an introspective songwriter, Illume should not surprise you with its degree of personal intimacy, she's a loner, a "cliffdweller from the old school".

joe68

05-29-2003, 11:18 AM

Actually, I love the song: the feel, the intenstity and the lyrics as well. I think this song is very different from anything she has written before.

Having said that, the only thing I wonder about is: what the heck is a "working river" and where does one go to "live" on it...?

strandinthewind

05-29-2003, 12:50 PM

Having lived in New Orleans, I can tell you my experience with a working river means to me the lights of the moving ships and moving equipment on the docks as well as the lights of the city and docks themselves creates the illusion of a moving creature. I have seen this effect in coastal cities although there are no large ships there. So, I guess she was analogizing the lights in her coastal community in LA to what I saw in New Orleans. That is my take anyway.

Johnny Stew

05-29-2003, 02:59 PM

Yes, I think some fans are getting a bit tripped up over the "chain of events" in "Illume."
Stevie clearly (to me, at least) sets the mood of reflection at the beginning of the song.
She's no longer in New York... she's home, she's safe, and she's thinking back to the terror of that day.

She's not pretending to know what the firefighters went through... she's not pretending to know what the families of those missing or dead went through... she's telling us how SHE felt that day.
Echoing feelings a lot of us had... those of us who weren't at Ground Zero, but were certainly affected by the events of that day.

I think "Illume" doesn't suffer the "hokiness" or forced sincerity of so many other 9/11 tribute songs, because Stevie offered a frank confessional of the fear and heartbreak felt by so many of us who witnessed the terrible events of that day, whether first-hand or on television.

So I don't find it self-indulgent or self-centered in the least.
Anyway, aren't the best poets those who are self-aware? Those who can allow the reader or listener into their lives and their experiences?

But, again, folks who don't care for Stevie and/or her writing style, will find things to nitpick about the song... that's just the nature of the beast, and it's to be expected. Not every one can appreciate every thing. :)