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  #16  
Old 08-03-2012, 01:15 PM
mezzoforte mezzoforte is offline
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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post
John yes, but no one has ever indicated that Mick has ever done anything physical at all. I get the impression that Mick was a big, gangly teddy bear.

Michele
Oh, I haven't heard that Mick was ever physical to anyone. Just that he wasn't a paragon of virtue. He was hooked on coke and regularly cheated on his wife, including with Stevie. Lindsey's also said some vaguely passive aggressive comments about Mick's parenting.

Not saying that any of those things are on par with abuse, for the record.
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  #17  
Old 08-03-2012, 01:37 PM
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Viv, this is a discussion forum, obviously for both pro and con.

I realize that you worship the ground he walks on, but you shouldn't be so defensive of him, IMHO. Ignore the thread, if it drives you batty!
Dave, it appeared to me like we had one of these newbies who join up just to cause trouble.

Really, is it a good thing to join a forum with a negative as first post?
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  #18  
Old 08-03-2012, 01:55 PM
GreenMagic GreenMagic is offline
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Mc -

I think you understand now that my intention was not to as you said "stir up" trouble.

I actually was going to do in your words "Positive" first post regarding Tusk.

But since I literally only read Ken's book a day and a half ago, this topic has been weighing on my mind. And I wanted feedback.

I did anticipate people saying Mick and John felt they were in no position to judge. I can understand even if I disagree.

The reason I disagree is their substance abuse never caused consistant and overly physical harm as a result. And Lindsey's at the time I stress, did.

They basically could have said "We dont act like sociopaths everytime we get under the influence, but you do Lindsey. Drugs make you a physical threat and we dont have that issue. Work on yourself or it's adios."

Pretty simple and to the point. But I don't know 100% if they were fully aware of his violent behavior under the influence.

So Mc doesnt misunderstand, I've become ok with Lindsey. After thinking about the fact he cleaned up and got therapy. But as stated previously if Mick and John had an idea how dangerous Lindsey was under influence and looked the other way, then I'll be disappointed. I'm already disappointed with them for slamming Stevie for not wanting to do another cash grabs oldies tour so soon.

She isn't their mother and they need to learn how to take care of themselves without expecting other people to do it. BTW I'll put up a more upbeat thread soon. Just busy jobhunting since I got laid off two days ago.
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  #19  
Old 08-03-2012, 03:21 PM
wetcamelfood wetcamelfood is offline
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Nah it's all about the music for me. I mean, sure it'd be great if they were nice people but as long as they make good music and I stay away from the tabloid stuff, I'm OK with that.

John
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  #20  
Old 08-03-2012, 04:22 PM
MrStevie MrStevie is offline
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Nah it's all about the music for me. I mean, sure it'd be great if they were nice people but as long as they make good music and I stay away from the tabloid stuff, I'm OK with that.

John
I kinda agree, but I admit Ken's book did change my mind about him as a person. At first I thought Ken was spitting sour grapes because Lindsey didn't get personally involved in supporting the book. After hearing Ken's ongoing comments about him, and learning about the things he was accused of by ex girlfriends, I decided where there's smoke there's fire.

I use to have a pic of Linds rollin a doob as my avatar. I couldn't keep it after reading about his abusive behavior and how drugs might have contributed it. It's also not easy to hear lyrics like this on his latest album: "I've got a pulicist who covers up the avarice where I put my fist," without wondering if he really has changed, like his loyal fans want to believe, or if he's surrounded by enablers with a financial stake in his image and career?

No offense to his fans.
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  #21  
Old 08-03-2012, 04:50 PM
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"Let he who is without sin.........."
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2012, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by McTrouble View Post
"Let he who is without sin.........."
This.

We all go through our lives with personal challenges to overcome. As we work our way to (hopefully) overcoming these challenges, we are all capable of actions we are never proud of. Lindsey suffers the misfortune of his personal struggles being cast publicly; something most of us will never endure.

I believe that the effort of self improvement, coupled with overcoming one's personal challenges and being a better man or woman says a lot more about character than past transgressions.
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  #23  
Old 08-03-2012, 06:35 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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Originally Posted by MrStevie View Post

I use to have a pic of Linds rollin a doob as my avatar. I couldn't keep it after reading about his abusive behavior and how drugs might have contributed it. It's also not easy to hear lyrics like this on his latest album: "I've got a pulicist who covers up the avarice where I put my fist," without wondering if he really has changed, like his loyal fans want to believe, or if he's surrounded by enablers with a financial stake in his image and career?

:
I don't care if he has changed or not. I guess I'd have to know what he did to think that he should have.

But a song about corruption by power brokers in business or government, which denounces their ruthless actions certainly doesn't say to me that he's beating women and children. Clearly, he is not the protagonist in that song and would battle against him as he did in "Wrong". Plus, I have not seen anyone guarding his image, such as it is. Very few people watching SNL even knew who Hader was pretending to be. There is not much to guard. Maybe he's beating Kristen their kids and poodles and she is keeping quiet about it. That would be her. I highly doubt Irving Azoff spends a lot of time making sure Lindsey misdeeds keep swept under the rug. Lindsey is far from high profile enough. Lindsey hardly has an entourage at this point in his life. Michele
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  #24  
Old 08-03-2012, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by McTrouble View Post
"Let he who is without sin.........."
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarmaContestant View Post
This.

We all go through our lives with personal challenges to overcome. As we work our way to (hopefully) overcoming these challenges, we are all capable of actions we are never proud of. Lindsey suffers the misfortune of his personal struggles being cast publicly; something most of us will never endure.

I believe that the effort of self improvement, coupled with overcoming one's personal challenges and being a better man or woman says a lot more about character than past transgressions.
This.

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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post
I don't care if he has changed or not. I guess I'd have to know what he did to think that he should have.

But a song about corruption by power brokers in business or government, which denounces their ruthless actions certainly doesn't say to me that he's beating women and children. Clearly, he is not the protagonist in that song and would battle against him as he did in "Wrong". Plus, I have not seen anyone guarding his image, such as it is. Very few people watching SNL even knew who Hader was pretending to be. There is not much to guard. Maybe he's beating Kristen their kids and poodles and she is keeping quiet about it. That would be her. I highly doubt Irving Azoff spends a lot of time making sure Lindsey misdeeds keep swept under the rug. Lindsey is far from high profile enough. Lindsey hardly has an entourage at this point in his life. Michele
...and This.


That sums up my feelings, right there.

-----------------------------

But in answer to the original question, here's my short answer.

It's been 30 years. How long do we need to vilify him? Does his past make me look at his music in a negative way? No. Quite the opposite. I know he's speaking from personal experience when he sings about sanity, control/loss of control, fear, growth, overcoming demons, karma, moving on and trying to be a better person or seeking out the good in things. All of it. He lays it all out there. It makes me appreciate his music more, and I genuinely like the man he's become. I feel bad for all he's been through ( and put others through ), but no way will I hold his very distant past aginst him. I wouldn't with anyone else either.


Here's my long answer, for anyone interested...

Lindsey, as well as the rest of the band, and CAH were all really messed up back then. They all were abusing drugs and/or alcohol, and living a very crazy lifestyle.. That affects different people differently, of course. Lindsey got violent. Apparently, so did Stevie sometimes. Was it OK for her to lash out and attack Lindsey, as she herself has admitted to ( see Michelle's post re. the choking incident )?? Yes, I know , obviusly she couldn't do the kind of physical damage Lindsey could, but was it OK? Chris was scared of John, too. There was plenty of bad behavior from all of them, yet, every few months, the only one we talk about is Lindsey because he's been the subject of a few books. It wasn't OK for anyone - and certainly not OK for Lindsey - to become abusive. And while being under the influence doesn't excuse his/their behavior, it does explain it to some degree. The thing that bothers me is that all this happened 30 years ago! Clearly, he has changed. I don't for a minute think he is the same man today. As was mentioned above, Anne Heche had no problems with him. Neither has his wife and kids as far as we know, and there's no reason to think otherwise. So, I guess, for me, when you ask should what a person did 30 years ago, while under the influence, effect how you feel about him today? My answer is, if you think he's the same person, or you believe a person should carry their sins around until the day they die, then yes. Avoid Lindsey and avoid his music. You won't enjoy either. Celebrities today, atheletes and TV stars , musicians, are in the news all the time for abusing girlfriends, wives and kids. Society gets over most of it really fast. I don't understand that. Rob Lowe videoed himself having sex with a teenaged girl, and now all is forgiven. I recall a very messed up David Hasselhoff a few years ago going nuts on the phone with his young daughter. Michael Jackson may have molested young boys, and definitelty held his own kids out of windows of highrises, and still many people are OK with that. He's a hero and his music is great they say. Do I even have to mention Chris Brown? And don't even get me started on how quick the average football fan looks the other way when someone yells rape or abuse. And these are all a lot more recent than Lindsey's issues. Yes, I know what they did has nothing to do with what he did, but I question why some people get a free pass and others have to carry an albatross around for 3 decades! Lindsey has clearly taken steps to become a better person. The people in his life adore him - his nieces, his kids, his wife, his friends...they don't strike me as people covering up for his ongoing nasty ways. They strike me as people that see a good man. A man who has changed drastically since getting control of whatever addictions and/or mental health issues he had, and of course, from lots and lots of therapy.
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  #25  
Old 08-03-2012, 07:54 PM
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elle elle is offline
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glad to see a rational and civilized discussion in this thread. some of my thoughts:

when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described. so, i couldn’t listen to LB’s music anymore, i stopped providing LB-related musical info through social media, and was considering canceling the already booked may trip to see his solo shows.

after talking to some people who have actually personally known LB during the last decade and who insisted that the man they know now is not the man described in books listing events from 20-35 years ago, and a lot of additional discussion, i believe that all that therapy he appears to have been through in the last 20 odd years was probably mostly about abusive / violent behavior and substance abuse. and that he did manage to change – and a lot of classic LB talk about the importance and power of change is probably about the same thing.

the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.

he definitely seems to have mellowed down. he may still be this crazy genius artist, or have a temper… but many people do – violent temper is one thing but actually crossing the line into physical abuse is another.

i feel fiercely protective of LB now, after being lucky enough to meet him several times in the last month or so.

however, if i would hear that he has not changed and [alleged] abusive behavior is still happening and he doesn't see anything wrong with it, that would be the end of my LB musical addiction too. period.



so to sum up - my 0.02:

abuse should NEVER be justified or condoned. by anybody. EVER.

but i believe that a person can redeem themselves and change. if they did, they should be given credit for it.
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  #26  
Old 08-03-2012, 08:22 PM
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How Lindsey behaves in his private life is truly none of my business. I'm either going to like a song of his or I'm not.
Many of you have referenced as fact that Lindsey has had years of therapy and I ask, how do you know this? I've not read any interviews with him where he talks about this.

Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.
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  #27  
Old 08-03-2012, 08:22 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described.
For me, I don't see the accusations as unrelated. Conte, Ken and CAH all know each other and Ken has talked to both since CAH wrote her book, so I really don't see them as independent allegations. I think they're related and I view it as that game of "telephone" where you whisper to each other in a relay and the story and details that come out at the end of the game are not at all what they were to begin with.

I do think that Ken mentioned Richard a lot. And with all the years that Richard and Lindsey spent living and working together, even if they're not together now, I would give credence to what Richard has to say. If Richard supports Ken's book, as Ken suggests Richard does, I'd take that as a form of confirmation.

Michele
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  #28  
Old 08-03-2012, 08:53 PM
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For me, I don't see the accusations as unrelated. Conte, Ken and CAH all know each other and Ken has talked to both since CAH wrote her book, so I really don't see them as independent allegations. I think they're related and I view it as that game of "telephone" where you whisper to each other in a relay and the story and details that come out at the end of the game are not at all what they were to begin with.

I do think that Ken mentioned Richard a lot. And with all the years that Richard and Lindsey spent living and working together, even if they're not together now, I would give credence to what Richard has to say. If Richard supports Ken's book, as Ken suggests Richard does, I'd take that as a form of confirmation.

Michele
I used to look at it like the telephone thing, too. Then I talked to a few people who seem to think these things are true and that Lindsey still has issues. Sure, they may all have an axe to grind. I keep that under consideration. Hopefully he has changed. I couldn't and wouldn't support someone who abuses women.

Ken hinting around at Richard's support of the book, that has a lot to do with me changing my mind. To my knowledge Richard hasn't said anything, though. Ken has told people LB hasn't spoken to Rich in years, so I wonder why.

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glad to see a rational and civilized discussion in this thread. some of my thoughts:

when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described. so, i couldn’t listen to LB’s music anymore, i stopped providing LB-related musical info through social media, and was considering canceling the already booked may trip to see his solo shows.

after talking to some people who have actually personally known LB during the last decade and who insisted that the man they know now is not the man described in books listing events from 20-35 years ago, and a lot of additional discussion, i believe that all that therapy he appears to have been through in the last 20 odd years was probably mostly about abusive / violent behavior and substance abuse. and that he did manage to change – and a lot of classic LB talk about the importance and power of change is probably about the same thing.

the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.

he definitely seems to have mellowed down. he may still be this crazy genius artist, or have a temper… but many people do – violent temper is one thing but actually crossing the line into physical abuse is another.

i feel fiercely protective of LB now, after being lucky enough to meet him several times in the last month or so.

however, if i would hear that he has not changed and [alleged] abusive behavior is still happening and he doesn't see anything wrong with it, that would be the end of my LB musical addiction too. period.



so to sum up - my 0.02:

abuse should NEVER be justified or condoned. by anybody. EVER.

but i believe that a person can redeem themselves and change. if they did, they should be given credit for it.
Great post.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this touchy subject. I like knowing how others view it, since I'm not sure I have all the facts. You've certainly given it a lot of thought and consideration.

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  #29  
Old 08-03-2012, 08:54 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.
The way you and others have described the audience at that show, I hardly blame him.

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the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.
See, I just don't think pleasant public behavior means much of anything. I don't think he was Atila The Hun back then either, but he might have been. If so, I bet he had a lot of incredibly nice and sweet public (and private) moments too, even while being abusive at other times.

Abuse is a hard thing to parse. I remember when Mommie Dearest came out, I was really skeptical of Christina Crawford. Whether her accusations were true or not, she benefitted a lot from them. On the other hand, when Bing Crosby's sons from his first marriage came out about him, I really resented it when Bob Hope (a beloved icon) trashed them and said Bing was a great dad. Bob and Bing may have been the closest of friends and I'm sure he was the kindest of buddies, but Bob had no way of knowing what was going on behind Bing's closed doors.

Michele
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  #30  
Old 08-03-2012, 09:01 PM
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Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.
i read your review about this and i still have trouble understanding how something like this could make you so angry.

f-word? middle finger? by a performer that - from what you and others described - felt he was being disrespected by the drunk audience members that were in the club to get wasted and not to listen to the show? don't you all have a whole another thread discussing how audience members' drunkenness at concerts is ruining shows for you?

now if you told me he jumped into the audience and beat somebody up, i'd say that would fit with the discussion of abuse allegations in this thread. but throwing f-words, i'm sorry - i don't see it.
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