The Ledge

Go Back   The Ledge > The Penguin > Q&A Discussions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

View Poll Results: Select one option (**see descriptions in body of message**)
"Best Of 1" Compilation of videos & performances 39 66.10%
"Best Of 2" Compilation of videos & performances 13 22.03%
Live Concert(s) 2 3.39%
Documentary & 'Concept' videos 3 5.08%
Documentary & selected live performances 2 3.39%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 08-25-2001, 10:48 PM
Gypsyblue
 
Posts: n/a
Default

[quote]Originally posted by wetcamelfood
[BI've tried to think of how to compromise this thing and this is what I've come up with and it sounds fair to me, I just hope it does to you guys.
________________________________________________

I think Marty mentioned something about a 2nd vote , to clearfy what everybody would like to have on the DVD. I really think that's the only fare way.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-26-2001, 05:54 AM
macfan 57's Avatar
macfan 57 macfan 57 is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,085
Default

Here's another thought about the 3 Dance songs. How can you have a Best of compilation without Songbird? If the Best of 1 wins out, you could replace Bleed to Love Her with a version of Songbird. There is a great version of Songbird on Mirage. There are a couple of nice close-up shots of Lindsey playing guitar while Chris sings. It might be nice to end this DVD with Songbird as the closing credits roll. That's how both the Tusk and Mirage tapes end. I also like the idea about using both Go Your Own Way and Don't Stop from the Brit Awards. If you could keep one song from the 3 Dance songs, I suppose it would be Silver Springs, maybe Landslide, maybe both since I'm not sure there are any other versions of these songs in the vault.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-26-2001, 07:23 AM
wetcamelfood wetcamelfood is offline
Addicted Ledgie
Supporting Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Peabody, MA., USA
Posts: 2,048
Default

Gypsyblue - In discussions with Marty, I think what he means by the "final vote" is that if "best of 1" wins then this would be the list we would go by but there would be a vote in regards to whether the three Dance songs should be on there or be replaced with something else. This is why in my last post I made the suggestions for those particular three.

Macfan57 - I think that if something from the Dance has to be on there that it should be "Silver springs" because:

1. it was a higher "chart" item to keep those people happy that want as many "hits" on here as possible and...

2. It would be a Stevie song so it would keep those happy who feel as though she's not represented enough.

but I don't see why her having six songs instead of seven and Green & Burnette having one each causes a problem and makes people think she is not fairly being represented (as we are trying to be "fully" representitive and go "through the years" and "touch" on as many lineups as possible here right?). As Peter did form the band for God sake, and "successful" or not, whether people want to ackknowledge it or not, the band did exist after BN. (these lineups weren't given a fair chance by the Warners marketing people, the public etc. so to let Billy and most importantly, Peter, (the reason anyone in FM is here today) to have one lousy song each is more than fair but this remains to be seen I guess). As it is, it's a shame that the post Green pre BN stuff is only given a "nod" to by BN clips of "Why" & "Station man" because that's the only footage available from the list semi relevant to that time frame but this "nod" has been considered acceptable so hopefully the Green & Burnette one song each idea can be at least considered too.

Also, I thought having "Go your own way" from the brits would keep the 1997 fans happy as they would get at least two songs from that time (if the dance stuff comes off and if "Silver springs" or whatever is left on from "The dance" then they would have three) and "Rosebud" fans would not lose out dramatically as "Rosebud" would still be well represented by other clips going by what is on the "best of 1" list now. Hopefully I'm not alone in these thoughs but we'll see I guess.

John
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-26-2001, 09:31 AM
Les's Avatar
Les Les is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 1,207
Default The plan of action

When the option with the most votes is selected Monday, we'll have two days of discussion on Tuesday and Wednesday.

By Thursday, I will post a final poll to vote on the content. When that vote is done, the option with the most votes is the list that Marty will send to Ken as our "wishlist."

Judging from the current vote as I type, it looks as though option 1 will be selected. What I'm going to do is place the current list for Option 1 in a vote against, at most, two variations on that list. (To make the vote between more than three lists gets confusing). So those of you with ideas for replacements, Tuesday and Wednesday will be the critical days to pull together those ideas into one or two lists to put up for the vote against the existing list for option 1.

This is the fairest and fastest way we can think of to get this done. Thanks again everyone for being involved in all of this!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-26-2001, 09:55 AM
wetcamelfood wetcamelfood is offline
Addicted Ledgie
Supporting Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Peabody, MA., USA
Posts: 2,048
Question Les, just for clarity...

Two questions (I'll say them as simply as I can but I want to at least hope to cover all bases when I explain what I'm talking about when I do this):

1. Will a thread for "discussion" already be set up by you when we log on on Tuesday Morning for us to hash around the ideas or what? (as I'm usually on early in the morning, I didn't want to set one up if you (or whoever) was going to set one up and end up giving my ideas to "empty air". Like everyone else, I just want them to be heard.)

2. As I say, just so there's no miscommuncation for anyone, can you confirm one way or the other, that the only variations (given "best of one" gets the vote) will be possible replacements for those three Dance clips and nothing else? Or, are there other possibilities? (as per my idea earlier that "Go your own way" could be changed from the "Rosebud" version to the Brits version so that 1997 doesn't get "left out in a big way" that Dance fans seem to think it will if the Dance stuff is taken off, hence the reason I suggested it.)

Thanks for your help on all of this.

John
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-26-2001, 10:34 AM
Les's Avatar
Les Les is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 1,207
Default Re: Les, just for clarity...

[quote]Originally posted by wetcamelfood
1. Will a thread for "discussion" already be set up by you when we log on on Tuesday Morning for us to hash around the ideas or what? (as I'm usually on early in the morning, I didn't want to set one up if you (or whoever) was going to set one up and end up giving my ideas to "empty air". Like everyone else, I just want them to be heard.)

I'll set up a thread on Monday.

2. As I say, just so there's no miscommuncation for anyone, can you confirm one way or the other, that the only variations (given "best of one" gets the vote) will be possible replacements for those three Dance clips and nothing else? Or, are there other possibilities? (as per my idea earlier that "Go your own way" could be changed from the "Rosebud" version to the Brits version so that 1997 doesn't get "left out in a big way" that Dance fans seem to think it will if the Dance stuff is taken off, hence the reason I suggested it.)

You can suggest any variations you'd like. Just keep in mind the format decided in this first vote when suggesting replacements.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-26-2001, 12:27 PM
Gypsyblue
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The plan of action

Quote:
Originally posted by Les

By Thursday, I will post a final poll to vote on the content. When that vote is done, the option with the most votes is the list that Marty will send to Ken as our "wishlist."

Judging from the current vote as I type, it looks as though option 1 will be selected. What I'm going to do is place the current list for Option 1 in a vote against, at most, two variations on that list. (To make the vote between more than three lists gets confusing). So those of you with ideas for replacements, Tuesday and Wednesday will be the critical days to pull together those ideas into one or two lists to put up for the vote against the existing list for option 1.

This is the fairest and fastest way we can think of to get this done. Thanks again everyone for being involved in all of this! [/b]
________________________________________________
Sounds like a great idea Les
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-26-2001, 02:20 PM
Jo and Jensen's Avatar
Jo and Jensen Jo and Jensen is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Larksville, PA, USA
Posts: 79
Thumbs down

Rosebud "Go Your Own Way" rocks. Fuzzy-haired Lindsey is soooo darling. Please keep that...especially if, as Ken said, there isn't much chance that "Rosebud" will ever be released as a whole. It is a better version than the one from the Brits.

The Dance footage is okay to keep, as we discussed before, to appeal to a large audience. At least keep "Silver Springs."

Actually 'Best of 1' is really good. The only thing that I would even think of adding would be Peter Green's 'Albatross. That has a big legacy for the band. Take off 'Everywhere' and put on 'Albatross'!

We don't want to insult anyone...Rick and Billy don't HAVE to be on the video. For a band with FM's history, it would be impossible to try to list something from every era to represent the history of the band. And, most fans wouldn't want that.

We have to keep in mind, that since this is a first release it has to be...and forgive me for saying it, Lindsey LOL!...the compilation has to be commercial!

Love,
jo and jensen
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-26-2001, 02:56 PM
Lisa's Avatar
Lisa Lisa is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Delaware
Posts: 39
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Jo and Jensen
We have to keep in mind, that since this is a first release it has to be...and forgive me for saying it, Lindsey LOL!...the compilation has to be commercial!
That's a really good point, and I think that's one reason why it would be important to include two or three Dance songs/videos on this DVD. Those are things more easily recognizable to the "casual" fan, and could intice them into buying it.

I also don't know why the inclusion of Dance stuff has become such an issue; yes, we all have the video, but that doesn't stop many of us from watching it whenever we catch it on VH1. And as Marty has said, there is more than enough room on the DVD for a few Dance songs as well as other, rarer material.

-Lisa
__________________
"Why can't you just get it through your head? It's over, it's over now. Yes you heard me clearly now I said - it's over, it's over now...

You might say that I can't take it, I can't take it, Lord I swear I just can't take it no more."


-Boz Scaggs
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-26-2001, 03:34 PM
Gypsyblue
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Jo and Jensen


We don't want to insult anyone...Rick and Billy don't HAVE to be on the video. For a band with FM's history, it would be impossible to try to list something from every era to represent the history of the band. And, most fans wouldn't want that.
jo and jensen
________________________________________________
I really agree with JO and Jensen on that point.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-26-2001, 04:15 PM
Johnny Stew's Avatar
Johnny Stew Johnny Stew is offline
Addicted Ledgie
Supporting Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 12,145
Default

Just to weigh-in.
Leaving "In The Back Of My Mind" off of "Option 1" is in no way meant as a slight to Billy Burnette.
In fact, that song happens to be one of my all-time favorite Mac tunes.
However, the video made for the single features very little of the band at all, and focuses on Mick Fleetwood's daughter, and some surreal train station.
So, it was left-off in favor of something more "band oriented".

I wish the 1990 UK Rock Steady performance of "In The Back Of My Mind" was on the video vault list... we could have used that.


As for "Oh Well"... i suppose that's something that will have to be decided on during the next set of voting.
The Peter Green-era is extremely well represented in the Rhino release Fleetwood Mac: The Early Years.
But there has yet to be a highlight compilation of the "Rumours era" line-up + Beyond... and that seemed to be the line of thinking behind the song choices in all of these options.

Still, like I said, that's something that will be left up to the voting.


Everyone has their wishlist, and everyone has their favorite version of a particular song... and there are obviously going to be compromises along the way... but I feel that, ultimately, we're all going to be very pleased with whatever the final track listing is.



Johnny Stew
__________________
"Although the arrogance of fame lingers like a thick cloud around the famous, the sun always seems to shine for Stevie." -- Richard Dashut, 2014

Last edited by Johnny Stew : 08-26-2001 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-26-2001, 06:40 PM
wetcamelfood wetcamelfood is offline
Addicted Ledgie
Supporting Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Peabody, MA., USA
Posts: 2,048
Default

The only reason I suggested the brits "Go your own way" was to keep the 1997 era fans happy with more than one recording from this time frame (that is, if it turns out that the Dance stuff is voted off) but if everyone wants the Rosebud version instead then they can vote that way. I just understood that most people wanted equal representation from equal Rumours era line ups (i.e. Rumours, Mirage, etc.) and the 1997 reunion time frame does seem to be thought of as one such time hence the reason if that version was used coupled with "Don't stop" from that show then there would at least be two from '97 (as the Rumours time frame is covered with a handfull (more than three anyways) of other songs (this is taken into account even if the Rosebud "Go your own way" was replaced with the brits one).

I agree that Peter Green is well represented on "The early years" however this particular great clip of "Oh well" was left off of there for some reason and as many feel as though this collection should go chronologically "through the years" if we have this clip at our disposal to represent that era, we should use it.

Using this and "In the back of my mind" to represent the great writing talents of Mr. Burnette for the Post BN time frame does not mean that Lindsey "disappears" there would still be plenty of Lindsey and Stevie and all of the "acceptable" bunch to supposedly keep this "commercial", but as it was stated that we are "all making compromises" then, for those who like all (or just other) eras of FM, (yes, these people do exist) surely one song from each wouldn't be the end of the world just as those of us who didn't want duplication of Mirage tape /Tusk doc stuff on here, and chopping into concerts and only using parts of shows like Midnight Special, Rosebud, etc. have reluctantly agreed to go along with the ideas of so far.

Remember that this is solely going to be distributed through this website, it is not going to be at every corner Best Buy so I don't know how "casual" the fans that are thought to be that will be buying these items but they can't be that casual that they don't have The Dance already. I've already said that "Silver springs" would be the one to leave on from The Dance if something does have to stay on this collection from there (once again, I know it sounds like I'm being selfish but this would be for those who want as many "chart hits" on here (as we have many "crowds" to please here and it seems like only some are getting their wishes so far) so this would seem the obvious choice from the dance for those people).

One could argue that if Peter Green is "well represented" on the "early years" DVD then one could say that The Dance stuff is "well represented" on the Dance DVD. So this would be redundant just as "Albatross" is as it's on the "Early years" DVD as well so why would you want to buy it again on a disc? Please consider "Oh well" if people do happen to think that at least one oldie should be on there that is, if we are true "Fleetwood Mac" fans (not just Stevie, not just Lindsey) all giving a little somthing here and there then this is impossible to be a hardship of any description. After all, this is not a "Stevie Nicks DVD" or a "Lindsey Buckingham DVD", it is a "Fleetwood Mac DVD". There were 16 members in the band and (as much as I would like to represent people like Rick, songwriting wise) many sadly can't be represented as it is because of lack of footage but to say "well, we know for a fact that everyone who buys this only wants footage of the BN lineup so we are only going to use that footage and it doesn't matter about the rest of the members even though we do have a couple of short snipets that could be thrown in and not take too much time to "nod" to those members and lineups, we're not going to use those clips. We've decided that all Mac fans only care about these five members so we're not going to include footage from any other members. We're only representing these 5 members and that's it". Oh but we will "nod" to the post Green pre BN days with "Why" & "Station man" because those clips from the '75 show have BN so that changes everything and that therefore makes it all alright, see how nice we are being about that". This is not fair to other great band members. If these people who only listen to BN era Mac gave the other members and band line ups half a chance they would see this as a valid point. How are these members going to get half a chance if people vote off the small contribution to the proceedings that they might possibly have of these small clips? Those who have seen those british band docs like FM at 21 and The story of FM know how great the "Oh well" clip is (and how short it is too) and to have it on DVD uninterrupted would really be fascinating as well as the Burnette tune, OK so the "In the back of my mind" video isn't exactly the Mona Lisa in the art world of videos and doesn't show the band members too much. This is once again to try to keep things as "even" as possible in terms of trying to give the writers a fair chance. As it is one for Burnette, one for Green and six or seven a piece for Stevie & Lindsey (probably more I've lost count now with all of this goings on now) hardly sounds too "even" to me yet this still seems to present some kind of problem. Also, for those of us voted off on wanting "complete" band music videos, the inclusion of the "In the back of my mind" video to this collection would still not make it complete but would help in some sad small way to getting as many of the videos as possible if nothing else.

I know from everything I've been saying on all of this all along it sounds like I haven't given in to anything but I know and God knows that I've given into many ideas along the way on this and I'm fighting for the smallest of things here that may make some bit of sense to me in the end. I just hope that something will go my way for once on this thing.

Please remember, this is just being sold through the site, it needs popular stuff but it needs stuff that will make true fans happy even more. This, if it ever happens, will be for our benefits, it's not going to rip up the charts at K-Mart so we might as well make it as useful to our collections as possible.

John

Last edited by wetcamelfood : 08-26-2001 at 06:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-26-2001, 08:51 PM
Gypsyblue
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by wetcamelfood

I know from everything I've been saying on all of this all along it sounds like I haven't given in to anything but I know and God knows that I've given into many ideas along the way on this and I'm fighting for the smallest of things here that may make some bit of sense to me in the end. I just hope that something will go my way for once on this thing.
John [/b]
_________________________________________________

wow!!
Since you put it like that, I guess I don't mind voting for "Oh Well"

Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-26-2001, 10:11 PM
Lisa's Avatar
Lisa Lisa is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Delaware
Posts: 39
Exclamation Good Grief!

Quote:
Originally posted by wetcamelfood
I know from everything I've been saying on all of this all along it sounds like I haven't given in to anything but I know and God knows that I've given into many ideas along the way on this and I'm fighting for the smallest of things here that may make some bit of sense to me in the end. I just hope that something will go my way for once on this thing.
Okie dokie! I think we just need to calm down a little & remember it's only a video! Yes, this is something we would all love to see one day, but it's not the end of the world either. I'm a Dance/option 1 person myself, but I'm not going to freak out if the majority votes another way.

Quote:
Please remember, this is just being sold through the site, it needs popular stuff but it needs stuff that will make true fans happy even more. This, if it ever happens, will be for our benefits, it's not going to rip up the charts at K-Mart so we might as well make it as useful to our collections as possible.
While it will (hopefully) initially be sold only through this site, you never know what Warners, et.al. will decide. If they think it has a wider market appeal, they may begin to sell it in other commercial venues. Also, I tend to think that the more widely marketable this DVD is perceived, the more interested Warners will be to actually put it together and release it.

-Lisa
__________________
"Why can't you just get it through your head? It's over, it's over now. Yes you heard me clearly now I said - it's over, it's over now...

You might say that I can't take it, I can't take it, Lord I swear I just can't take it no more."


-Boz Scaggs
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-27-2001, 09:45 AM
wetcamelfood wetcamelfood is offline
Addicted Ledgie
Supporting Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Peabody, MA., USA
Posts: 2,048
Default

This just goes to show what a big fan I am, I'm not saying it would be the "end of the world" but as a big time fan, when stuff gets released, natuarally you would prefer it to be stuff you don't already have (in great condition anyways).

It doesn't matter now as option one is obviously going to win going by the votes and the time that is left so far but I must say that the whole reason I was saying what I was about the goodness of option two was that it was a fair list and by no means "alternative" as it's original label had probably led some to believe as I thought I had covered as many areas as I thought the fans wanted (covering as many "hits" as possible, cutting up shows, having things be from as many (what is deemed as) BN "eras" as possible (given the footage available), trying to keep songwriting "even" (which we know is impossible)) so this being the case, there would be no "reason" for anyone to "freak out" if it was chosen because as many areas as possible had been covered with that lists content for those people who wished such things. I guess I just had the nerve to suggest that we use all the videos (which some people do want a collection of and it would help represent Billy's talent (which he does have if BN only era fans gave him a fair chance) with "In the back of my mind" which is not "embarrasing" to fans of these eras even though it may be considered so by some others (if the assumption seems to be that "everyone only cares about the BN era and that's it" then why are there other fourms on the ledgeboards other than "Rumours", "LB" & "SN"?), one short clip from the Peter Green days and that we don't use Dance/Mirage tape/Tusk doc stuff because we already have it (as this would be sold through here, it's surely reasonable to assume that even the most "casual" of fans would have it and for those who didn't I offered to tape it for themn from my originals for free but I guess this was not good enough, the idea being that it's not DVD. Well, the Tiusk doc could be released in full on a future disc (I'm all for that being on this disc now but that vote didn't seem to go well) and we could think positively that hopefully if we can prove good sales (of 10,000) to Ken's people (which they say they would be happy with) then we could hope that the HBO rights thing could be worked out and have that released in full on disc in the future too. OK, we could get parts of it on here but wouldn't it be more useful if we hope that the whole thing gets released in the future too. If we spend our money wisely and we use different footage here, then we wouldn't have to think when the full discs of Tusk doc/Mirage tape, etc. were released that "well, this is great but now the first disc is mostly redundant as we took up much of the space on disc one with this stuff". As far as me "freaking out" yes, it is upsetting. How would you like it if you were with your friends and you all chipped in to buy something and you agreed to it because they are your friends so you think you agree on all of the ideas as to what you and your friends are looking for and then all of your ideas as to what the money should be spent on are shot down, they decide to go buy something else that you have very little interest in and then they say "OK, you agreed to chip in 25 bucks so hand it over and we'll go buy it" (?) (there are obvious differences between this kind of situation and what is happeneing here but I'm sure you get the idea)

As I understand it, it is Ken's 5.1 Entertainment group that will be putting this out by themselves licensing the material from Warners. So if Warners does think that they want to put it in the stores themselves then so what? Let them. That's their decision. Ken himself in the q & a said that his company would be more than happy with 10,000 sales alone (unlike Warners who want at least 100,000). So, this being the case, why not have no "duplication" so it is of most use to us and our collections rather than worry about what Jimmy Crack Corn on the street thinks about it? If they do release it, all that should matter to us is that we can get our copy here which we know we could (if the signatures add up and it goes ahead). I mean so what if Warners think "oh well, there's no Dance stuff on here so we won't release it in the stores"? It's better to have quality product and not have it break sales records than put out something with only half useful stuff on there for fans in the hopes that Warners sell it in the stores so it can be "successful" and everything "looks good". I'm not saying "The dance" isn't quality product, I'm simply saying we as fans, who would be the only ones to buy this if we assume the "worst" and that Warners doesn't release it in the stores) regardless how "casual" a fan they are, if they are a regular visitor to this site and buy merchandise at the Penguin album corner they won't be so "casual" that they won't already have it or can easily get it. So why buy it again? If you as a fan really want a "best of" collection of this duplicating nature that bad then why not dub your own copy (like making audio tapes for people) rather than make other fans buy one just because some of you want it to be that way? Surely a VHS copy instead of DVD of this material which you can dub from your originals of these things would not be the "end of the world" to you as a fan too right? Ken's people would be happy with the 10,000 sold here and hopefully would then agree to future releases sold though here. This possibly being the case, why have a big portion of every possible disc relese be stuff we already have, wouldn't it be more sensible spending money on stuff we don't have? I certainly know that's how I'd rather spend my money and I'm sure I'm not alone on that thought. I just hope some of those people will back me up on this thought here but we'll see I guess.

Just as Marty had stated that he had done a search on the petition database to see that only a few hunderd of the two thousand so far had specifically requested VHS so this wasn't though of as a major issue (from the beginning of the project (if it materializes) anyways), it could be argued that one could do a search on the petiton database to see how few people have stated that they only want "parts" of Mirage tape/Tusk doc/dance on there as it must be reasonably assumed that those that had stated "I'd like to see the Tusk documentary on DVD" (or words to such effect) surely mean that they want the "whole thing" on disc as oppossed to just "bits and pieces" of such programs.


Aside from all of that, we are only discussing the replacements for these three songs now so I guess I'll voice then again when Les sets up the thread tonight for discussion for Tuesday and Wednesday regarding this topic. I know my ideas have not been well recieved and they don't have a hope of being considered but as I've stated elsewhere, I just want to do it so when I grow old I won't always have to think "what if I'd posted this thought, it mighht have made a difference" so I'll grasp on to this sad chance and follow through with it so I can rest easy in future years that at least I tried something even though as I say even with three lousy replacements, this disc is going to be nothing like what I personally would have put on there but I hope something of use can get on there for the fans that want stuff on there that you can't get on another DVD. We'll see what happens though.

John

Last edited by wetcamelfood : 08-27-2001 at 09:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1995-2003 Martin and Lisa Adelson, All Rights Reserved