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  #16  
Old 08-23-2004, 11:40 AM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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I understand the frustration at these carrot-dangling snippets, but we must be careful not to seem ungrateful. Javier is under no obligation to give us anything.

But since he has decided to share the music with us, I think it would make infinitely more sense to post the complete songs.

Let's face it, even if this stuff is released on CD, its appeal will be very limited. Considering Say You Will has been rather lackluster in sales, I think this is something that only would sell a few thousand, especially considering the sound is naturally rather dated. Sorry, but that's my analysis.

And if Javier does release this stuff, I bet that posting complete songs here would not deter any of the diehards from buying a CD. How many people didn't buy Say You Will because they already had most of the songs? I suspect not one person passed on the CD.
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  #17  
Old 08-23-2004, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarneVaca
I understand the frustration at these carrot-dangling snippets, but we must be careful not to seem ungrateful. Javier is under no obligation to give us anything.

But since he has decided to share the music with us, I think it would make infinitely more sense to post the complete songs.

Let's face it, even if this stuff is released on CD, its appeal will be very limited. Considering Say You Will has been rather lackluster in sales, I think this is something that only would sell a few thousand, especially considering the sound is naturally rather dated. Sorry, but that's my analysis.

And if Javier does release this stuff, I bet that posting complete songs here would not deter any of the diehards from buying a CD. How many people didn't buy Say You Will because they already had most of the songs? I suspect not one person passed on the CD.
Agreed.

Thing is, this material is never going to be made commercially available. From what I've heard, the tapes themselves have considerable noise and sound very dated, especially for studio and soundboard material. I don't think anyone is going to want to invest in fixing them up, manufacturing the product, and marketing it if, at best, 5,000 copies are going to be sold. It isn't realistic.

The music itself really has no market value. With the exception of us die-hard fans, who in the hell has ever heard of Fritz? No one and we'd be the only people to buy the product. Plus, we can't even get Buckingham Nicks on CD, I highly doubt we'd get this stuff.
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  #18  
Old 08-23-2004, 12:40 PM
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HomerMcvie HomerMcvie is offline
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I don't think anyone is going to want to invest in fixing them up, manufacturing the product, and marketing it if, at best, 5,000 copies are going to be sold. It isn't realistic.
I agree, but don't know Javier's financial situation. Maybe if he made 10k off this, that might be significant to him. And if that's the case, I certainly don't want to deny him that. He's taken care of these tapes all these years......
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  #19  
Old 08-23-2004, 03:08 PM
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bjk3047 bjk3047 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomerMcvie
I agree, but don't know Javier's financial situation. Maybe if he made 10k off this, that might be significant to him. And if that's the case, I certainly don't want to deny him that. He's taken care of these tapes all these years......
I think the point being made is that there's not only not 10k to be made, but 0k. The fact that there's too much work to do on the masters for the lack of demand negates profits. Obviously, nothing but speculation, but it seems like given the possible circumstances, Javier should reconsider his carrot dangling.
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2004, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin
I must admit I'm pretty surprised by a couple of these posts.
- Marty
It is disheartening. To you and Javier I say thank you, I appreciate you and carry on.
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  #21  
Old 08-23-2004, 06:08 PM
christinaliz christinaliz is offline
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I agree. It is disheartening. This isn't a question of playing fair. Javier owes us nothing. We're being treated to some rare recordings we thought we'd never hear. I look at that as a very positive thing. If he should decide to eventually release these in their entirety, we should pay for them just as we would for any other artist. I, for one, love carrots... As for there not being a demand, obviously there is. Someone out there made $1500 off 2 singles, however illegal that was. Not too shabby, I'd say. Again, thank you Javier.

Christina
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  #22  
Old 08-23-2004, 09:29 PM
BellaDonna98 BellaDonna98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissention
Agreed.

Thing is, this material is never going to be made commercially available. From what I've heard, the tapes themselves have considerable noise and sound very dated, especially for studio and soundboard material. I don't think anyone is going to want to invest in fixing them up, manufacturing the product, and marketing it if, at best, 5,000 copies are going to be sold. It isn't realistic.

The music itself really has no market value. With the exception of us die-hard fans, who in the hell has ever heard of Fritz? No one and we'd be the only people to buy the product. Plus, we can't even get Buckingham Nicks on CD, I highly doubt we'd get this stuff.
That's exactly my point. The BN master tapes got lost? Whatever. Lindsey's holding out.

It's a pipe dream that Fritz's stuff will ever be released. If Javier was in it for the music he'd post full songs. It's the money he could get if it was a release. How else do you explain it? Otherwise wouldn't he be willing to share?
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  #23  
Old 08-24-2004, 01:48 AM
glitter_fades glitter_fades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christinaliz
I agree. It is disheartening. This isn't a question of playing fair. Javier owes us nothing. We're being treated to some rare recordings we thought we'd never hear. I look at that as a very positive thing. If he should decide to eventually release these in their entirety, we should pay for them just as we would for any other artist. I, for one, love carrots... As for there not being a demand, obviously there is. Someone out there made $1500 off 2 singles, however illegal that was. Not too shabby, I'd say. Again, thank you Javier.

Christina
It makes sense Javier might want to benefit from his stewardship of these recordings. Just the same, the only fans interested in them are hard-core fans like us. Does it really make sense to tease and irritate your only audience? No, Javier doesn't owe fans a thing. True. It's also worth noting there may be a limit to how long these recordings are worth anything to anyone. I find it hard to believe these recording would ever get the interest of a record label. If Javier wanted to share his treasure he could. We'd be very grateful for the opportunity to hear whatever he has in it's entirety. There must be something that can be done to bring these recordings to fans who'd appreciate them AND give Javier his just rewards?

Of course that assumes Javier does not overestimate their true worth. They're only worth something to us, not the general public. It's obvious some fans don't agree with the way Javier's playing his hand. I'm not speaking for everyone, but to some people the snippets are more of an insult than a treat. I personally am not intersted in hearing these little bits. I might pay something to hear the entire songs, but the snippets might be lessening my interest more than anything. Also, some fans are losing interest in Fleetood Mac again with the tour over and no new project on the horizon. Some food for thought.

Maybe Javier should take a page from the boolegger's playbook and auction his goods to the highest bidder? To me $1500 for two singles was ridiculous but that's just me. If Javier has the legal rights to these recordings I see eBay as one way he might get financial rewards. He could also post complete songs for a download fee, or he could release his own cd for sale here on the Penguin like Bob Welch did. There are ways to satisfy everyone if folks see reason. The snippets...the snippets just aint gonna do it, Jav.
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  #24  
Old 08-24-2004, 08:24 AM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christinaliz
As for there not being a demand, obviously there is. Someone out there made $1500 off 2 singles, however illegal that was. Not too shabby, I'd say. Again, thank you Javier.
Basic economics. If the Mona Lisa went up for sale, a virtual impossibility unless the Louvre and the French nation get inconceivably strapped for cash someday, it would sell for hundreds of millions of dollars. Of that I have no doubt.

Does that mean there is a huge demand for it? No. It means that something so rare will stir the passions of a few collectors with means who will outbid each other and artificially drive up the price.
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  #25  
Old 08-24-2004, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CarneVaca
the French nation gets inconceivably strapped for cash someday. . . .
Well, now that they are not taking oil bribes from Iraq - you never know

I just could not resist - back to the regularly schedules program
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  #26  
Old 08-24-2004, 08:39 AM
NoThatFunny NoThatFunny is offline
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These snippets have piqued my interest as a curiosity. The late-60s Frisco sound is interesting, especially coming out of Lindsey's and Stevie's mouths, but I am not sure these recordings would have mass appeal.

Music has evolved, or some might say devolved, considerably since. Where this Fritz music is and where and Lindsey and Stevie are today is galaxies apart.

Release? Yes, sure, as a curiosity some folks will buy it. But it would not be a massive seller.

It is kind of Javier to share the snippets with us. Perhaps he would like to share full songs if we ask nicely?
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  #27  
Old 08-24-2004, 09:24 AM
ThinLine ThinLine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glitter_fades
It makes sense Javier might want to benefit from his stewardship of these recordings.
Of course he might, they belong to him and he can do whatever he likes. If he thinks and chooses to charge for them, that's his right, they're his songs and his recordings.

Quote:
It's obvious some fans don't agree with the way Javier's playing his hand. I'm not speaking for everyone, but to some people the snippets are more of an insult than a treat. I personally am not intersted in hearing these little bits.
I'm sure it was never Javier's or Marty's intention to insult any fans by offering good size clips of these songs. I think it's insulting to Marty and Javier to complain about them. If you and others are not interested in hearing them and feel insulted, please spare Marty, Javier and the rest of the fans who are interested.

There is a growing trend in thinking that all music should be free, just as the fan sites that host this music and provide the music are offered free to fans by a handful of FM site owners. It's laughable to think that the same fans who are complaining and feel insulted at the carrots being dangled in front of them would actually end up paying for the songs if Javier did actually release them for a fee online. They'd be swapped around in record time. Yea, yea, yea, we've all heard it before, the fans will pay for things just give it to them. I tend to think that group is smaller and smaller and the more music that's provided free since the fan sites started regular file sharing, makes me realize that very few would pay.... and most (regardless of income and ability to pay) would be swapping them left and right.

For the people who feel insulted and are questioning motives, it's simple, don't listen to the clips and pretend they don't exist and let the fans who are interested and appreciative enjoy them. Try not to insult Marty and Javier and ruin it for everyone else.

Thanks to Marty and Javier for giving the fans an oppportunity to listen to this long lost music.
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  #28  
Old 08-24-2004, 11:23 AM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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It's laughable to think that the same fans who are complaining and feel insulted at the carrots being dangled in front of them would actually end up paying for the songs if Javier did actually release them for a fee online.
Did you ever download the Gift of Screws files? Did you buy "Say You Will?"

I know of bands that make individual songs available for free in their sites before even releasing albums. And then the fans who download the songs go buy the albums.

Are you speaking for yourself?
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  #29  
Old 08-24-2004, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarneVaca
Did you ever download the Gift of Screws files? Did you buy "Say You Will?"

I know of bands that make individual songs available for free in their sites before even releasing albums. And then the fans who download the songs go buy the albums.

Are you speaking for yourself?
ITA - I did and bought many copies of SYW and would do the same with GOS - if he EVER releases it
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  #30  
Old 08-24-2004, 02:50 PM
glitter_fades glitter_fades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinLine

I'm sure it was never Javier's or Marty's intention to insult any fans by offering good size clips of these songs. I think it's insulting to Marty and Javier to complain about them. If you and others are not interested in hearing them and feel insulted, please spare Marty, Javier and the rest of the fans who are interested.

There is a growing trend in thinking that all music should be free, just as the fan sites that host this music and provide the music are offered free to fans by a handful of FM site owners. It's laughable to think that the same fans who are complaining and feel insulted at the carrots being dangled in front of them would actually end up paying for the songs if Javier did actually release them for a fee online. They'd be swapped around in record time. Yea, yea, yea, we've all heard it before, the fans will pay for things just give it to them. I tend to think that group is smaller and smaller and the more music that's provided free since the fan sites started regular file sharing, makes me realize that very few would pay.... and most (regardless of income and ability to pay) would be swapping them left and right.

For the people who feel insulted and are questioning motives, it's simple, don't listen to the clips and pretend they don't exist and let the fans who are interested and appreciative enjoy them. Try not to insult Marty and Javier and ruin it for everyone else.

Thanks to Marty and Javier for giving the fans an oppportunity to listen to this long lost music.
Whoa! I didn't say I felt insulted with the snippets being posted. I said some fans posting frustrations in this thread seem to think Javier is misplaying his hand. What I meant by that is some fans seem to be voicing frustration NOT because they think the music should be free, but becasue posting snippets seems insulting if fans get the impression Javier's only using Marty and this board to whip up interest in a commercial product in a teasing and annoying way. I want to be clear. This is my interpretation of some posts in this thread, not my own opinion. Also, I don't see why pointing this out is ruining anything for other fans. How so?

What I said about my own opinion is the snippets are not heightening my interest. I'm stating a fact that Javier might want to consider. It's ok if you feel otherwise. Most fans do. My statement is not intended to dismay fans who want to hear the snippets. If voicing honest opinions leads to having full songs released will everyone feel the same way about the unpopular posts? It's clear some fans think any type of negative comment will limit the possiblity of the music ever being available. I don't think that's true. Why does this discussion have to be one of taking sides? I don't see why Marty or Javier would get disheartened by posts that tell how all fans truly feel. Isn't that the real reason why these cuts are being posted here? If the music was posted here for pure enjoyment there would be no discussion. Since it appears this is more of a trial balloon on releasing the rest of what Javier has, why not be honest about our opinions? Again, I'm not trying to ruin anything for anyone. I'm stating an opinion about the way the whole thing is being funneled through this board. You don't have to agree. I'm not disheartened by anyone else's opinion. It's all good.

Last edited by glitter_fades : 08-24-2004 at 04:59 PM.
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