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  #16  
Old 12-26-2009, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by louielouie2000 View Post
Why do fans of Green's always relegate to taking cheap shots at Stevie Nicks when others voice their opinions of the band without her?
Because it's usually the Stevie Nicks fans who say things like "it stopped being Fleetwood Mac after Stevie left." At least that's historically been the case. And, Homer's more of a Christine fan.

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The (unpleasant to some) reality is, by '95 the image of FM was cemented... and it's face was Stevie Nicks. Any deviation from that wouldn't be accepted by the general public.
I've been making that point for over ten years. Combined, at the time, I think Out Of The Cradle, Street Angel, and Time sold 350K copies. It's hard to place the blame of Time's lack of success on Stevie or Lindsey not being there. The Rumours band not only needed each other for some semblance of commercial success, they also needed the support of the record company and the media, which they got with The Dance. Without that, even if they had recorded one album at that time, it would probably still have tanked by Fleetwood Mac standards. And, Behind The Mask and SYW were about the same in sales, so I have a real hard time saying that Stevie, Lindsey, or Christine are individual saviors of Fleetwood Mac., that without them, Fleetwood Mac might as well pack them in.
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2009, 04:58 PM
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THAT REMINDS ME...Billy Burnette WAS going to be on the tour even if Lindsey had stayed. During the interviews at the time, Mick stated that Lindsey wanted another guitarist. Which was especially easy for me to believe a few years later, when I saw him with four other guitarists, three percussionists, a keyboardist, and a bassist backing him up. (Sadly, that's not an exaggeration.) Lindsey can make that snotty comment all he wants. Fleetwood Mac went on with six musicians in 1995 and ten musicians in 1997. and in 2003. Using his logic, the band was better in 1995.
Very interesting... I'd never heard Burnette was to be hired even before Lindsey left. I wonder what caused the fundamental change where Fleetwood Mac went from a strictly 5 piece band, to wanting to add more musicians? Was it an insecurity thing? Was Lindsey wanting to help cover up degrading vocals and energy in an aging rock band? Was he getting bored and simply wanted a muse to bounce ideas off of? Did he want some of the pressure and heat taken off of him to be the sole guitarist and self appointed crafter of the band's sound? For Lindsey to be so anti-establishment, his wanting to surround himself with an army of musicians sure doesn't add up. I will absolutely give you that the band is better, much better, without them. I wish the band were still simply touring with only the core members... except I'd allot a keyboard player to them.
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2009, 05:09 PM
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I've been making that point for over ten years. Combined, at the time, I think Out Of The Cradle, Street Angel, and Time sold 350K copies. It's hard to place the blame of Time's lack of success on Stevie or Lindsey not being there. The Rumours band not only needed each other for some semblance of commercial success, they also needed the support of the record company and the media, which they got with The Dance. Without that, even if they had recorded one album at that time, it would probably still have tanked by Fleetwood Mac standards. And, Behind The Mask and SYW were about the same in sales, so I have a real hard time saying that Stevie, Lindsey, or Christine are individual saviors of Fleetwood Mac., that without them, Fleetwood Mac might as well pack them in.
I didn't include album sales in my argument, because following Tango, the Mac (and it's solo members) had ceased being an album selling enterprise. They'd aged out of that game. And that would have been the case regardless of whoever was in the band. Concert sales obviously, are another story. The Behind The Mask and Say You Will tours were both pretty successful ventures, despite their backing lackluster selling albums. The Time tour? Not so much. Some of that could certainly be attributed to the times... Fleetwood Mac were about the most uncool band in the market during the reign of Pearl Jam and Nirvana. And the public also loves to tear celebs down so they can simply build them back up. In that case, you could argue ANYTHING the band did in '95 would have flopped. But could the band have succeeded had it continued on past '95 without Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham? I just don't think so.
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  #19  
Old 12-26-2009, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by louielouie2000 View Post
Why do fans of Green's always relegate to taking cheap shots at Stevie Nicks when others voice their opinions of the band without her? Nicks fans don't hit below the belt calling Green a washed up, ape****-crazy, cheesy-haired flash in the pan . His music may not be our personal taste... but we don't degrade the man personally. Nobody was even talking about Peter Green for God's sake... we're in the POST Rumours forum discussing Billy freaking Burnette! We get it... there are a small contingency of guys here who think Stevie was the WORST thing to ever happen to the band. But concert ticket sales will tell you otherwise... they are up sharply when she's with the band, and completely fall off a cliff when she's not. The same could probably have been said about the Green era. He was the original Fleetwood Mac's star. There were a huge chunk of fans who didn't give a **** about the band when he left too. That's the reality of the fickle record and concert ticket buying public... they've gotta have a star to latch on to.

The (unpleasant to some) reality is, by '95 the image of FM was cemented... and it's face was Stevie Nicks. Any deviation from that wouldn't be accepted by the general public. The same could be said of '70 Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green. I honestly have no idea how 5 years later the band was able to rise to fame again and totally reinvent itself. You would have thought the band's legacy would have been cemented at that point as well. Perhaps it was because the success of the Peter Green era was so short lived... and the subsequent bands were pretty obscure and anonymous (before I am jumped on for this, I ADORE Bob Welch, and think he was one of the best things to ever happen to our band). Come '95 though, I think the band was out of reinventions. The Rumours era fame was huge... eclipsing any other lineups before or after it. The general public just wouldn't swallow any other form of the band after that. That may be good, that may be bad, but that's the way it is!
Because the lack of logic, that most Stevie fans exhibit, makes me want to paint in strokes, that they possibly might understand.

FM had always been about reinvention(intentional or not), but Stevie sealed the fate of the band, as far as the CHIFFONHEADS are concerned.

God, no offense here, but people think I dislike Stevie, which isn't really true. Her fanbase(not all of them!) is another story.

So yeah, as far as many Christine, Welch, Green, etc fans are concerned, she's the worst thing that ever happened to FM. Your mileage may vary....
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  #20  
Old 12-26-2009, 06:06 PM
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Because the lack of logic, that most Stevie fans exhibit, makes me want to paint in strokes, that they possibly might understand.

FM had always been about reinvention(intentional or not), but Stevie sealed the fate of the band, as far as the CHIFFONHEADS are concerned.

God, no offense here, but people think I dislike Stevie, which isn't really true. Her fanbase(not all of them!) is another story.

So yeah, as far as many Christine, Welch, Green, etc fans are concerned, she's the worst thing that ever happened to FM. Your mileage may vary....
So what this really comes down to is you have to insult me because you don't agree with me. I love Stevie Nicks. She was, is, and will always be my favorite member of FM. I wouldn't consider myself a chiffonhead though, and if I was there is nothing wrong with that either. I also am a fan of Peter Green. And speaking of lack of logic(your words) this entire forum probably wouldn't even exist if Stevie were never a part of FM. That's probably why the SN forum is the most popular.
For you to get angry at another fan because you don't like their opinion is ridiculous.
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  #21  
Old 12-26-2009, 06:08 PM
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As with your meet and greet comment in Rumours, I suspect you must only have phrased this in such broad, absolute terms to provoke dissent.

Michele
No, not to provoke anything. Just based on album sales. TIME didn't even go Gold. I suspect sales were under 50,000 even.
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  #22  
Old 12-26-2009, 06:37 PM
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Very interesting... I'd never heard Burnette was to be hired even before Lindsey left.
Well, it wasn't necessarily going to be Billy, but Billy knew Lindsey. Both Mick and Christine said that Lindsey wanted another guitarist on the road with them anyway. So, it could have been Billy.

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  #23  
Old 12-26-2009, 06:46 PM
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Was he getting bored and simply wanted a muse to bounce ideas off of? Did he want some of the pressure and heat taken off of him to be the sole guitarist and self appointed crafter of the band's sound?
I don't think he wanted anyone else to be the crafter of the band's sound. That's for sure. I think he likes to the be the craftsman. I'm not sure why he likes so many other musicians around. But you're right, he does like to have a muse to bounce ideas off of. I really think that he loves Mick quite a bit and has a certain amount of dependency on him and that's one of the main reasons. His relationship with Richard was certainly a long one and he . . . the way he explains it, these people aren't necessarily brilliant in his eyes, but they do things that turn into something creative, almost by accident. He seems to like to have that experimental spark around him, an atmosphere where failures become inspiration.

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  #24  
Old 12-26-2009, 06:50 PM
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No, not to provoke anything. Just based on album sales. TIME didn't even go Gold. I suspect sales were under 50,000 even.
Music is about quality, NOT NUMBERS. Mystery To Me is(IMO) the greatest FM album. But by your measure, it's virtually worthless.

You and Ethan, with your contests....
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  #25  
Old 12-26-2009, 08:28 PM
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Does Stevie Nicks dislike Billy Burnette? Does Stevie Nicks like soymilk? Does Stevie Nicks still embroider stars on Lindsey's jeans?
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  #26  
Old 12-26-2009, 08:50 PM
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Like Lindsey himself said... the fact Lindsey was replaced with not one, but TWO guitarists speaks volumes about the quality of the incoming stock. The fact 2 guitarists replaced one could have actually been used to the band's advantage... it could have shown how serious the band was about mixing up it's formula, thus signaling a new beginning in the band's history. But both Rick and Billy were relegated as sort of a background sideshow, while the band was trying to pretend a major personnel change had NOT just happened.

Again, my whole problem with the '88-'95 era was simply the way everything was done. Some really interesting, cool music could have been made. I don't know though... Billy Burnette's rockabilly style really just didn't have a place within the band, and that's the way I feel. I do however think a big opportunity was missed with Rick, but that's ancient history now.
Of course, I never wanted Lindsey to leave FMac, but I much more preferred Billy to Rick Vito, especially when it came to vocals. Nothing wrong with Rick though. I like his solo work and work with FM. To me, Billy fit in well, especially since he'd already worked with members of Fleetwood Mac.
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  #27  
Old 12-26-2009, 09:50 PM
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Does Stevie Nicks dislike Billy Burnette? Does Stevie Nicks like soymilk? Does Stevie Nicks still embroider stars on Lindsey's jeans?
THAT'S A F-CKING STUPID SHIRT YOU'RE WEARING!
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  #28  
Old 12-26-2009, 10:09 PM
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Just out of curiosity, why would anybody care what Stevie thinks of Billy? In any case, I've never heard/read Stevie say anything at all negative about him and she had worked on her solo material (Rock a Little) as well as with the band.

Anyway, this is the first I've heard of Buckingham wanting a second guitarist, but if they had taken on a second guitarist before LB's departure, Burnette would have been a logical choice - given his collaborations with the various members of the band. Also, it was always my understanding that part of the reason that two new members were brought onboard is because Billy is an excellent songwriter but is by no means a lead guitarist. While Rick is definitely more guitarist than songwriter and both had been friends and had worked together before.

As for Burnette's "Rockabilly" style, that may be his primary sound, but he is entirely capable of playing just about anything and playing it well.

But regardless of what anybody thinks of Burnette and Vito's talents, the fact is they never really stood a chance. It's a rare band indeed that can lose such a key member - not just a guitarist, but also singer, songwriter and producert - and not suffer on the charts. Though the complete inflexibility of a certain sub-group of Fleetwood Mac's fanbase doesn't help matters.
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  #29  
Old 12-26-2009, 10:32 PM
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Very interesting... I'd never heard Burnette was to be hired even before Lindsey left. I wonder what caused the fundamental change where Fleetwood Mac went from a strictly 5 piece band, to wanting to add more musicians? Was it an insecurity thing?
Lindsey had talked for years about the necessity of having to "paraphrase" (his term) the songs in concert, owing to the intricate, multilayered nature of the studio tracks. He never seemed totally happy about that. His interest in wanting to add another guitarist for the full set jibes with the comments he made over the years (as far back as the Rumours tour).

Frankly, I'm surprised the band didn't attempt this for the 1982 tour.
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  #30  
Old 12-26-2009, 10:33 PM
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As long as Mick is behind the kit it will always be Fleetwood Mac.
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