Would the Rumours line-up still be together if ...

[Ench]

Lindsey had just agreed to the tour dates EDIT: arrangements that the other band members wanted.

On this forum a fair proportion of the posters blame the band (in particular Mick and Stevie) for the impasse that lead to Lindsey parting ways with the band. But, what scant actual information we have about the causes of this, it seems that Lindsey refusing to sign off on the tour led to the impasse and the split.

Couldn't it be said that fault is on both sides for this impasse, and given that the majority of the band (all of the rest of the band) wanted to tour, then perhaps Lindsey should have agreed and signed off on the tour.

I don't see anything, other than wild speculation, to suggest that Lindsey would have been dropped had he compromised and agreed to a timetable. Hence, it seems that an unwillingness to compromise is possibly the root cause of the split, and hence there is fault on both sides. But, if you have a five member group, and four members agree and one doesn't, then that would suggest to me that it's the one member who is more at fault than the others.

I can see why FM would want to go out on the road sooner rather than later. John's cancer is now 'clear', but I can see that the scare he had in 2013/2014 would have focussed his, and other band members, minds on the fact that they aren't going to be around, and able to tour, forever. Delaying for a year increases the chance that the tour won't go ahead due to members being ill or worse. Lindsey is younger than Christine, Mick, and John, and may be less focussed on imminent mortality (or at least forced retirement.) EDIT: Based on later discussions, for this paragraph, perhaps focussing on the time of the tour is not the best way of making the point. There is conflict in the descriptions from both sides as to whether a delay was requested, or whether other points of contention led to the impasse. However, see later discussions on 1987 and whether the band felt they can trust Lindsey.

But, if we go back to basics, we have that Fleetwood Mac is touring without Lindsey because Lindsey refused to go on the tour (asking for it to be at a later time). I can't see how this is not more Lindsey's fault than Fleetwood Mac. If you want to be in a band, you have to compromise. Lindsey didn't, and paid the price.

EDIT: In light of later discussions, I'll modify the previous paragraph. The next one replaces it.

But, if we go back to basics, we have that Fleetwood Mac is touring without Lindsey because Lindsey refused to agree to tour arrangements (not just time, but potentially other details as well), I can't see how this is not more Lindsey's fault than Fleetwood Mac. If you want to be in a band, you have to compromise. It appears that Lindsey didn't compromise sufficiently or compromised too late, and paid the price.

Can I point out that I'm more of a Lindsey fan than I am a Fleetwood Mac fan. But, like my full acceptance that Roger Waters is an ... not a nice person ..., I think that Lindsey is more at fault here than the others are due to personal failings.

If Fleetwood Mac was as important to Lindsey as pronouncements suggest, then he should have compromised EDIT: compromised more and/or sooner.

[Storms123]

Originally Posted by Ench

Lindsey had just agreed to the tour dates that the other band members wanted.

On this forum a fair proportion of the posters blame the band (in particular Mick and Stevie) for the impasse that lead to Lindsey parting ways with the band. But, what scant actual information we have about the causes of this, it seems that Lindsey refusing to sign off on the tour led to the impasse and the split.

Couldn't it be said that fault is on both sides for this impasse, and given that the majority of the band (all of the rest of the band) wanted to tour, then perhaps Lindsey should have agreed and signed off on the tour.

I don't see anything, other than wild speculation, to suggest that Lindsey would have been dropped had he compromised and agreed to a timetable. Hence, it seems that an unwillingness to compromise is possibly the root cause of the split, and hence there is fault on both sides. But, if you have a five member group, and four members agree and one doesn't, then that would suggest to me that it's the one member who is more at fault than the others.

I can see why FM would want to go out on the road sooner rather than later. John's cancer is now 'clear', but I can see that the scare he had in 2013/2014 would have focussed his, and other band members, minds on the fact that they aren't going to be around, and able to tour, forever. Delaying for a year increases the chance that the tour won't go ahead due to members being ill or worse. Lindsey is younger than Christine, Mick, and John, and may be less focussed on imminent mortality (or at least forced retirement.)

But, if we go back to basics, we have that Fleetwood Mac is touring without Lindsey because Lindsey refused to go on the tour (asking for it to be at a later time). I can't see how this is not more Lindsey's fault than Fleetwood Mac. If you want to be in a band, you have to compromise. Lindsey didn't, and paid the price.

Can I point out that I'm more of a Lindsey fan than I am a Fleetwood Mac fan. But, like my full acceptance that Roger Waters is an ... not a nice person ..., I think that Lindsey is more at fault here than the others are due to personal failings.

If Fleetwood Mac was as important to Lindsey as pronouncements suggest, then he should have compromised.

He did agree to the tour dates. Apparently, according to Lindsey’s wife, this iteration is starting the tour later than they would have had they not fired Lindsey. The “tour dates” story was something the band dreamed up initially.

[Nick]

Jesus Christ. Let it go.

[Ench]

Originally Posted by Storms123

He did agree to the tour dates. Apparently, according to Lindsey’s wife, this iteration is starting the tour later than they would have had they not fired Lindsey. The “tour dates” story was something the band dreamed up initially.

I've gone and checked sources, and don't find anything that discounts the impasse over touring being the reason for Lindsey being left behind. Do you have evidence to back up claims (paraphrased) that the impasse over touring was not the cause of the split?

Whether or not the current tour will be starting later than they would have if they hadn't fired Lindsey does not address my question.

Originally Posted by Nick

Jesus Christ. Let it go.

To whom is that addressed?

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by Ench

I've gone and checked sources, and don't find anything that discounts the impasse over touring being the reason for Lindsey being left behind. Do you have evidence to back up claims (paraphrased) that the impasse over touring was not the cause of the split?

Whether or not the current tour will be starting later than they would have if they hadn't fired Lindsey does not address my question.

You didn't look very hard, did you?

[Ench]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

You didn't look very hard, did you?

I've looked hard for reliable sources. I do not just accept conspiracy theories backed up by no evidence. Which are 99.999% of posts on Lindsey leaving FM.

[Buster]

Of course Lindsey played a role in all of this. We will likely never know the truth, regardless of what the detectives in this board think. The problem I have is how it was done and that it doesn’t appear everything was done to try to work it out.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Ench

I've looked hard for reliable sources. I do not just accept conspiracy theories backed up by no evidence. Which are 99.999% of posts on Lindsey leaving FM.

You are right, of course. But you are wasting your time trying to get these folks to get it.

[elle]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

You didn't look very hard, did you?

Agree with Nick - one of the reasons why I’m never here anymore is because of the constant rehashing of the same thing for 4 months now, with no worries about the facts or reliable sources.

Ench - please check the Record thread on here for some facts and reliable sources that you seem to be looking for. Then come here if you want to dissect any of those because the Record thread is kept discussion free.

[Ench]

Originally Posted by Buster

Of course Lindsey played a role in all of this. We will likely never know the truth, regardless of what the detectives in this board think. The problem I have is how it was done and that it doesn’t appear everything was done to try to work it out.

Yes, we'll never know the exact truth. Though, I suspect we'll hear more details from both sides at some time.

I suspect that there was a time reasonably recently (possibly even early this year) when a Rumours lineup tour was on the cards, and the four members were prepared to tour with Lindsey. Otherwise even starting the negotiations makes no sense. And this would include Stevie being prepared (not happy to, I would think) to work with Lindsey.

It could have been 'solved' by one side or the other simply agreeing to what the other side asked for. However, it's not necessarily a good idea for that to happen.

While FM was his cash cow, Lindsey's solo work appears to be more important for him, and from an artistic point of view that makes sense to me. Lindsey's solo work has been ... affected by FM business repeatedly in the past. It's possible, and reasonable, that he didn't want this again.

On FM's side, while it's suggested that Lindsey would have joined them for a tour at some point, did they believe that they could trust that? We know that Lindsey left them in the lurch in 1987. By making the choice they did, it appears that full commitments to the tour were made by all six members. So, it may be a case that FM didn't want the tour to go on the never never. Again, that's reasonable.

It seems to me that there were 'factions' and what they wanted didn't match up. So, we end up where we are.

[Ench]

Originally Posted by elle

Agree with Nick - one of the reasons why I’m never here anymore is because of the constant rehashing of the same thing for 4 months now, with no worries about the facts or reliable sources.

Ench - please check the Record thread on here for some facts and reliable sources that you seem to be looking for. Then come here if you want to dissect any of those because the Record thread is kept discussion free.

I had already read the record thread, thank you. I went back and read the quotes again in case I had missed something. I don't see anything substantial that answers my first post.

There is one comment made in someone's 'youtube notes'.

Originally Posted by Brian Larsen

Lindsey *did* want to tour. Saying that he did not want to tour until 2019 is simply not true, no matter who says it.

Even if this comment was true, it still doesn't mean that he wouldn't be in the band even if he had agreed to the tour dates. Lindsey most likely did want to tour, and FM wanted to tour, but they didn't agree on details.

Also, Kristen Buckingham talks about a 1 year delay.

W]ell that's just the point, he didn't do anything beyond asking for a 1yr tour delay or asking to do his own solo tour at the same time so that a delay wouldn't be needed. Stevie just decided she wanted him out of her life and that meant out of the band. That's why so many fans have turned away from the band, and why so many Stevie fans have turned away from Stevie. [H]e didn’t ask for any such delay. Ironically, they are starting later now than what they had planned with Lindsey. Cruelest move I’ve ever seen. Lindsey did not deserve any of it.

Looking through the comments by Mick, there is repeated mentioning of the inability to come to an agreement about touring. Which is backed up by Kristen's comment.

As posted up above, and supported by both sides, there were negotiations about touring, and these did not progress to a resolution, and then the other members (including Stevie) decided to go on without Lindsey. Is any of this paragraph in doubt?

Nothing in that means that had Lindsey agreed to the tour dates that the other members wanted, how they wanted, that he still wouldn't have been able to tour. Even if the conspiracy theories that this is just Stevie's doing were true, it appears to me that there was a time that by being more agreeable, that Stevie would have toured with Lindsey.

And, that was my question in the OP. So, I don't agree that the Record thread, or any other sources I've been able to find, invalidate or answer my question.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Ench

I had already read the record thread, thank you.

Also, Kristen Buckingham talks about a 1 year delay.

you misquoted Kristen, which is actually not surprising considering it is kinda jumbled up in that record thread:

Originally Posted by DownOnRodeo

Update
(Can no longer edit the OP, so am just adding new bits and corrections as new posts)

Addition:
2018 January 26 - Stevie Nicks in Musicares red carpet interview
When asked what the band will be doing next, Stevie stumbles ever so slightly and then says she doesn't know. That she's going off to Hawaii for 2 months because she's tired, she's just done 70 shows on her solo tour and she doesn't know what the band will be doing but they're all "free" going forward.
(Summary borrowed from post by bombaysaffires)
(Discuss here: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...76#post1234776)

Correction:
2018 June 29 - Kristen Buckingham on her Instagram
(In response to a user asking “WTF did [Lindsey] do [to get fired], another user says "[W]ell that's just the point, he didn't do anything beyond asking for a 1yr tour delay or asking to do his own solo tour at the same time so that a delay wouldn't be needed. Stevie just decided she wanted him out of her life and that meant out of the band." In response to which, Kristen Buckingham says:
[H]e didn’t ask for any such delay. Ironically, they are starting later now than what they had planned with Lindsey. Cruelest move I’ve ever seen. Lindsey did not deserve any of it.
Source thread (Discuss here): http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...t=58003&page=5

Kristen's original comment is this (i also bolded above):
[H]e didn’t ask for any such delay. Ironically, they are starting later now than what they had planned with Lindsey. Cruelest move I’ve ever seen. Lindsey did not deserve any of it.

Kristen is answering an IG comment from a fan claiming that he asked for 1 year delay.

so Kristen Buckingham directly refutes the 1 year delay claim.

you can also go to original thread which i believe has screencap of Kristen's comment, so you can directly see what she said, in response to what. if not, you can go to that IG post and scroll down to her comment.

[elle]

adding on unbroken links to threads for completeness and ease of use since some people seem to need help navigating around:

here is a thread and post where Nancy transcribed the comments from IG:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpo...4&postcount=68

and a quote from that thread (again, with KB's comments in bold. frankly when i saw her post i was surprised to find it out so clearly and unequivocally. before that i thought maybe he suggested 2 possible options, but Kristen was very clear and direct and left no doubt that there was no delay in discussions, and that FM tour he agreed to was supposed to start earlier than it is actually starting now. so if anything, replacing LB has caused a delay that wouldn't happen if he was still in the band):

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I think we should go ahead and post the transcript from seed_we_sow's post here in case people are having trouble sifting through the instagram comments or, in the future, that post / series of replies gets lost or something (Note: kbcrush is Kristen):

jgrt35 WTF did he do ? Don't get mad cause I asked.Im like make up,��

seeds_we_sow@jgrt35 well that's just the point, he didn't do anything beyond asking for a 1yr tour delay or asking to do his own solo tour at the same time so that a delay wouldn't be needed. Stevie just decided she wanted him out of her life and that meant out of the band. That's why so many fans have turned away from the band, and why so many Stevie fans have turned away from Stevie.

kbchrush@seeds_we_sow he didn’t ask for any such delay. Ironically, they are starting later now than what they had planned with Lindsey.

kbchrush@seeds_we_sow Cruelest move I’ve ever seen. Lindsey did not deserve any of it.

[Ench]

Originally Posted by elle

you misquoted Kristen, which is actually not surprising considering it is kinda jumbled up in that record thread:



Kristen's original comment is this (i also bolded above):

[H]e didn’t ask for any such delay. Ironically, they are starting later now than what they had planned with Lindsey. Cruelest move I’ve ever seen. Lindsey did not deserve any of it.

Kristen is answering an IG comment from a fan claiming that he asked for 1 year delay.

so Kristen Buckingham directly refutes the 1 year delay claim.

you can also go to original thread which i believe has screencap of Kristen's comment, so you can directly see what she said, in response to what. if not, you can go to that IG post and scroll down to her comment.

OK, I see. The 'source thread' above appears to be a broken link. And, while I looked through Kristen's Instagram page previously, I missed that bit. I'd prefer a link to the original Instagram post if possible.

The rest of the band has been clear in claims that Lindsey wanted to delay the tour, e.g. here Stevie says directly that Lindsey wanted to delay the tour rehearsals until November 2019. http://www.vulture.com/2018/04/tevie...-volatile.html

So, we have a situation where they are saying different things. There are three situations I can see.

1. Stevie is lying.
2. Kristen is lying.
3. Neither are actually lying, but are giving simple descriptions of a more complex truth.

E.g. it could have been the case that in discussions Lindsey initially asked for the tour to be delayed (until 2020 I would guess if rehearsals only started in November 2019.) But, that in discussion various options were put forward including the solo and FM tour happening at the same time. So, no delay. However, it could be that either (i) this offer came too late after a majority of the band had already decided that they didn't want to tour with Lindsey, or (ii) other points of negotiation weren't agreed which caused the bustup. I.e. even without a delay there were other points that caused and impasse and the current situation.

In the cases described in the first paragraph, Stevie could be telling the truth if an initial discussion included a request to delay the tour, and Kristen could be telling the truth if a later offer was made by Lindsey that meant the tour would go ahead.

The bottom line was that agreement wasn't reached.

In light of this, I think my initial question needs to be modified so that it doesn't rely on the single point of contention: was there a request for a delay.

However, the bottom line is that there were at least a majority who wanted to go ahead with the tour, and at least one (and I guess one) who wanted to do things differently. (Though, it's arguable how differently.) In that situation, it's more the responsibility of the individual to compromise than the majority, if they want to keep the band together.

[Macfan4life]

OMG Another thread on this
None of us were there. But when you add up all the circumstantial evidence, the tour dates excuse seems pretty lame.

Jury: Exhibit A

Stevie refuses to join Fleetwood Mac in the studio claiming records don't sell. However that did not stop Stevie from recording 2 solo albums recently and touring to support them.

Exhibit B
Fleetwood Mac did record Buckingham/McVie but dared not to call it a Fleetwood Mac album. Clearly this would upset Stevie or she was pissed the band went on without her.

Exhibit C
The changing stories from Mick. First it was about tour dates. Lately it was just that they did not feel good with Lindsey. Huh? We know Stevie is the only band member who does not get along with Lindsey. Its a fair assumption that Stevie gave an ultimatum …"I refuse to record with him, and I refuse to tour with him" Being the band wants to tour, Mick made his pick and the rest is history.

Back to tour dates. Lindsey's solo tour ends about a month after the Mac tour started. When you lie like Stevie did about touring, you know there is another reason.