Has the world gone topsy-turvy?

[MacAttack]

I was reading an Illume post the other day, and someone mentioned Lindsey borrowed heavily from Richard Ashcroft's (from The Verve) album "Alone with Everybody". Sure enough, he did. Illume uses a lot of elements of "New York".

Someone also mentioned a second track off the album sounds like "Say You Will", but I couldn't find it.

I'm actually getting in to the Ashcroft record, not bad. But while listening to Track 2 "I Get My Beat", it sounds unmistakably like Silver Girl.

Am I crazy? Just how much did Lindsey take from this guy? I'm cool with sampling, but taking at least three songs from one record seems like overkill. What's going on here?

[Black_Moon]

Originally Posted by MacAttack

I was reading an Illume post the other day, and someone mentioned Lindsey borrowed heavily from Richard Ashcroft's (from The Verve) album "Alone with Everybody". Sure enough, he did. Illume uses a lot of elements of "New York".

Someone also mentioned a second track off the album sounds like "Say You Will", but I couldn't find it.

I'm actually getting in to the Ashcroft record, not bad. But while listening to Track 2 "I Get My Beat", it sounds unmistakably like Silver Girl.

Am I crazy? Just how much did Lindsey take from this guy? I'm cool with sampling, but taking at least three songs from one record seems like overkill. What's going on here?

It'll have been Stevie who took the melodies. She writes the chord progressions. And of course, the songs you've mentioned to sound like songs off Say You Will.

[nailatixela]

The song that sounds like Say You Will is C'Mon People.

I'm glad this happened...because the mac did this they turned me on to the verve and richard.

[Sleepless-Child]

I think that it's just a coincidence about Say you will. But Illume...

[louielouie2000]

I don't know if it's necessarily Stevie. Lindsey completely ripped off an '80s (the name of which escapes me) song for What's The World Coming To? He also borrowed the chorus beat for Peacekeeper from Paul Simon's Kodachrome.

I had forgotten about the C'mon People rip off! And I had never heard I Get My Beat, but I'll be damned, there's another one! And people wonder why I bash the Say You Will album so much! Seriously, we're up to 5 ripped off songs now. Lazy, unimaginative, spoiled rock stars just floating along on ONE album's former glory.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I don't know if it's necessarily Stevie. Lindsey completely ripped off an '80s (the name of which escapes me) song for What's The World Coming To? He also borrowed the chorus beat for Peacekeeper from Paul Simon's Kodachrome.

Lindsey didn't rip off the song. If anything, it's a cover. The original song was also What's the World Coming To and LB changed some of the lyrics. Which is why the original writer, Julian Raymond, is listed as a co-writer on the song. Someone here steered us to the "Dear Mr. President" album on some band's (Bang Bang) album and Sharon found us a video of them performing it and then Christy posted the lyrics from that band's version and compared them to Lindsey's new lyrics.

I don't like covers. I could even do without all of the Rolling Stones songs that Lindsey performed so well. I'd rather have original material. But I don't think covers can be classified as stealing someone else's music and they especially aren't stealing when you add lyrics to the old song and credit the original as Lindsey did with Shut Us Down and What's the World Coming To.

Michele

[MacAttack]

I agree, I wouldn't say Lindsey stole this stuff. That's a total overstatement. I don't agree about the Stevie chord thing, it's Lindsey that produces the final versions of everything.

There has to be an understanding there, I was just curious to learn more, like why Lindsey likes this record so much.

I guess I'm in the minority, Say You Will is a FANTASTIC album. I get the knock that it sounds like two solo albums, but I think it's still an amazing piece.

[Black_Moon]

Originally Posted by MacAttack

I agree, I wouldn't say Lindsey stole this stuff. That's a total overstatement. I don't agree about the Stevie chord thing, it's Lindsey that produces the final versions of everything.

There has to be an understanding there, I was just curious to learn more, like why Lindsey likes this record so much.

I guess I'm in the minority, Say You Will is a FANTASTIC album. I get the knock that it sounds like two solo albums, but I think it's still an amazing piece.

Stevie writes the songs though, and therefore writes the chords (unless she's got a co-writer on the song, which she has on neither).

[Peestie]

Originally Posted by Black_Moon

Stevie writes the songs though, and therefore writes the chords (unless she's got a co-writer on the song, which she has on neither).

Exactly.

I don't know that Lindsey isn't some way to blame on the production side but it really does sound like Stevie has just used the chords from a couple of Ashcroft's songs. Illume/New York is mind boggling how close they are. How Ashcroft doesn't get a writing credit on Illume is beyond me. It almost sounds like instead of bringing along a demo for it Stevie could have played New York and said "Okay, we're going to do this but I'm going to put some new words over the top".

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Peestie

Exactly.

I don't know that Lindsey isn't some way to blame on the production side but it really does sound like Stevie has just used the chords from a couple of Ashcroft's songs. Illume/New York is mind boggling how close they are. How Ashcroft doesn't get a writing credit on Illume is beyond me. It almost sounds like instead of bringing along a demo for it Stevie could have played New York and said "Okay, we're going to do this but I'm going to put some new words over the top".

I disagree. I think this brings up the issue of what is considered a "riff" vs. a "chord progression." While I do agree that Stevie wrote the basic chords of "Illume," I believe it was LB who came up with that sliding acoustic guitar riff that is the trademark for this song- and whether or not he copped it from Richard Ashcroft is debatable. This is not unlike "Edge of Seventeen" where Stevie wrote the basic chords (which were not unlike "Call Me" or "Rhiannon" or "Gold"), but Waddy and/or Jimmy Iovine came up with the iconic guitar riff and the syncopating drum beat that seems to mimic "Bring on the Night." I highly doubt that Stevie came in with a Richard Ashcroft CD and told Lindsey to duplicate that riff; I think Lindsey would find that highly offensive. Personally I suspect that Lindsey may have unwittingly taken the riff, verbatim, from Stevie's rough demo, and the guitarist on Stevie's demo may have lifted the riff from RA (probably assuming it would never have made it to the final recording). I suspect this because, if you listen to the snippets of the "Say You Will" demo from the "Destiny Rules" documentary, the guitar riff is already there, and Lindsey copied it for the studio recording. In the olden days, when LB had something to prove, he probably would have tried to put his own personal stamp on it. But I think he is now of the mindset that if it ain't broke, he ain't gonna fix it.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I disagree. I think this brings up the issue of what is considered a "riff" vs. a "chord progression." While I do agree that Stevie wrote the basic chords of "Illume," I believe it was LB who came up with that sliding acoustic guitar riff that is the trademark for this song- and whether or not he copped it from Richard Ashcroft is debatable. This is not unlike "Edge of Seventeen" where Stevie wrote the basic chords (which were not unlike "Call Me" or "Rhiannon" or "Gold"), but Waddy and/or Jimmy Iovine came up with the iconic guitar riff and the syncopating drum beat that seems to mimic "Bring on the Night."

Maybe it was Jimmy because Waddy claims they told him what to do, described what was needed and he obliged and then afterwards when he heard the Police on the radio is when he first realized it was so similar to Bring on the Night and he was shocked and said to them not to ever do that to him again. He said that they completely ripped off the police and when asked if he'd call it "sampling" he said no. It was just stealing. But then in his Q & A he elaborated.

But let me say in my own defense, being a respectable thief anyway— if you listen to the Police's song, Andy Summers performs it with some sort of echo unit. There is some sort of artificial "repeating" mechanism going on. And when I heard that, I just said, "I'm not going to do it like that. I don't like that kind of crap. I'll just play the thing." So I just did it the way I still do it, with the hand, as opposed to falsifying it with an echo machine. So it's all dig-a-dig-a-digga. The chords, and everything totally start to move differently. And that drum feel is that same thing. It's that off-off bass drum, against the guitar. So that is what I said. "What? We're doing what? Well, I ain't gonna do that. I'm doing it my own way." And that's how we did it.

Michele

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I don't know if it's necessarily Stevie. Lindsey completely ripped off an '80s (the name of which escapes me) song for What's The World Coming To? He also borrowed the chorus beat for Peacekeeper from Paul Simon's Kodachrome.

I had forgotten about the C'mon People rip off! And I had never heard I Get My Beat, but I'll be damned, there's another one! And people wonder why I bash the Say You Will album so much! Seriously, we're up to 5 ripped off songs now. Lazy, unimaginative, spoiled rock stars just floating along on ONE album's former glory.

I have no idea why Lindsey thought he needed to copy anyone or take from a cue from others songs. His work is great enough on it's own!!

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by nailatixela

The song that sounds like Say You Will is C'Mon People.

I'm glad this happened...because the mac did this they turned me on to the verve and richard.

I knew about The Verve but didn't know about Richard's solo work before "Illumay."
I asked John about it in his Q&A and he responded by asking me who Richard was.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by nailatixela

The song that sounds like Say You Will is C'Mon People.

I'm glad this happened...because the mac did this they turned me on to the verve and richard.

Actually C'mon People is a better song. Sorry Stevie.

[Sahara]

I always thought Murrow sounded a lot like Black Betty ... just the structure of the chorus, really.
Or am I wrong?