Realistically - Where does Lindsey belong?

[face of glass]

I agree with everything there Gerald, with all my subjective emotions. Lindsey's studio work is what matters to me the most and that's where I consider him one of the best. He might not be the best in any particular field; singing/guitarplaying/arranging/songwriting/producing, but when those all are together in his work, he simply can't be beat.

[Gazza]

Hey, if he's one of Monte Montgomerys favourite players (and obviously a big influence) then that's good enough to convince me he deserves a place in the top 25 at least, because having recently seen that guy, my jaw almost fell off.

[seteca]

Originally posted by face of glass
He arranges things very carefully these days, because he doesn’t care for spontaneity much....................It’s the studio recordings he cares about in the end.

I'm not sure where this idea of Lindsey's solos being "fixed" came from but I certainly don't agree. Yes, the basic chord structure of the solo is fixed, but then it obviously HAS to be otherwise it will sound off-key and horrible. I've listened to probably around 100 versions of "I'm So Afraid" and about 15 versions of "Come" and I have NEVER heard the same solo twice. I agree that there are parts of the solos that you can expect to hear every time you hear the song (e.g. that part at 6:04 on the Dance version of ISA) but that's because it's become a signature part of that solo, just like the arpeggios at the end of "Hotel California", or the start of the solo of "Comfortably Numb". It's not because he isn't or can't be "spontaneous". In fact, as any half decent rock or blues guitarist knows, it's actually A LOT harder to pre-arrange a solo than it is to simply play what you feel. And unless you're feeling particularly stoned, the latter will always produce a much warmer, organic, and more pleasing sound to the ear. As the verse and chorus of Come and ISA are the same length every night, it's obvious that the length of the song is determined by the end solo, and if you look at all the bootlegs available, they're all different lengths. It's almost physically impossible to try to pre-arrange a 4 minute+ raging rock solo night after night for 70 or 80 nights. If you have to do that, you shoudn't be on stage in the first place because you aren't a professional guitarist. During the rehearsal period before the tour started, Lindsey probably came up with several rough ideas on various ways the solo could develop throughout the 4 or 5 minute period. (Find me a SINGLE guitarist who goes on an international multi-million dollar tour and DOESN'T give at least SOME thought/rehearsal to how he's going to play his solos before the tour starts.) The rest is improvisation and spontaneity. On some nights he gets so into the solo he simply finishes the song with a massive power chord rather than coming back to the mic to sing the final "Think of me sweet darling....".

Now the WAY in which he or any other guitarist improvises those parts is determined by two factors: emotion, and technical ability. Lindsey is extremely technically abled, so if any parts of a song (solo) sound the same, it's most likely because that's the emotion he is trying to convey via his guitar. Just like that 6:04 part of ISA...you can hear that guitar is coming from the depths of his soul as he's playing. And it sounds just as emotional every time you hear it at whatever venue, because even though he knows he's leading up to that part, when he gets there, it always brings out that same screaming emotion, which is why it's never boring to hear and in fact the total opposite. The parts which are new every night sound the way they do because that's how he feels at that instant, and he has the technical ability and experience to play exactly how he feels. There has never been a 96 note/bar tapping sequence in ISA because that wouldn't really serve either the song or his emotion in any useful way. However, the man has been a pro. guitarist for almost 40 years, and I'm SURE there is VERY little he couldn't do if he "had to".

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: it's impossible, and wrong, to create a "greatest guitarists" list. So MANY factors should be taken into account if someone is even contemplating making such a list, such as: who is voting? Are they professional, unbiased guitarists or members of the public? Is the list regarding pure technical ability or the emotion with which the guitar is played and/or the emotion it creates within the listener? Does the list allow flamenco or classical guitarists (who are undoubtedly some of the most technically gifted guitarists in the world and who seem to be missing from all of these lists)? etc etc

Originally posted by face of glass
Can you even get close to the hair-metal runs of the album version of “Come” with a Turner?

Yes, you can. I can play the whole of the album version solo on my Model One no probs.

Originally posted by Gazza
Hey, if he's one of Monte Montgomerys favourite players (and obviously a big influence) then that's good enough to convince me he deserves a place in the top 25 at least, because having recently seen that guy, my jaw almost fell off.

One of the many, many, lesser known awesome pro. guitarists who have been influenced by Lindsey's playing.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I would add to that that I have seen unsigned guitarists who play better than the household names.

I totally agree. There are 20-60 year old guitarists who play at the "Ain't Nothin' But The Blues" bar for up to 20 or 30 minutes, jamming away, with a feel for the blues far greater (imo) than Clapton or Green. They are a pure pleasure to watch and hear, and the amount of talent that's on that little stage is at times simply unbelievable and awe-inducing. The same guitarists then pack away their guitars into their gig-bags and take the bus back home. They don't have a contract and there aren't any "talent spotters" in the "audience" (i.e. the 50-100 people in the bar). They're there because they love to play.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by chiliD


You think the [Rosebud ISA] clip is good you shoulda been there in person about 15 yds from the stage!! And, to top that, he had to follow Michael Schenker & UFO (who was the middle act of the 3 band bill...the opening act was "Small Wonder" from central Canada)

Oh my gosh, you were there?! How AWESOME! That is one of my favorite Fleetwood Mac clips EVER! VERY COOL! I'm majorly jealous!

[Gazza]

Out of interest, what other lesser known and more famous guitarists has Lindsey been a big influence on? I'm aware of a few but just wondering who I may have missed.

[face of glass]

I haven’t listened to every Lindsey solo in ”Come” and ”I’m So Afraid”, I do admit that. And I know very well that you can’t repeat a long solo exactly like it was the night before, not even when you have the actual notes in front of you. There are variations, but the question is: are there enough of them? Lindsey isn’t a player who uses chromatic notes, so he always plays within the given chords. And so do most rock players, unless they have the skills of a jazzman too. Allan Holdsworth, a known jazz-rock player, said that he gets really worried if his solos start to sound the same. With Lindsey, I do agree that he has certain climactic spots he likes to repeat. I have no problems with that; that’s how it’s been since the White Album tour versions of “I’m So Afraid”. It does add to the emotion for me, too.

Listening to music is always subjective, so this all is based on our impressions. My impression is that “I’m So Afraid” was at its most spontaneous during Mirage tour and the tours before that. You think he hasn’t lost it. Well, I don’t think he has lost it entirely either. I have heard different takes of “Come” and “I’m So Afraid” from this tour. But sometimes it feels to me that he plays it a little too safe. The very structured Out Of The Cradle tour version of “ISA” was based on the chaotic solo that was on the 1980 live album, and with The Dance he did the same again. That’s what he did for that 1986 Don Henley benefit too. I guess it could be explained by the fact that since he hadn’t been on stage for a long time, he wanted to play it safe for a while. He does seem to get more spontaneous in these two monster solos when the tour progresses.

The thing is, Lindsey of the past played different solos on pretty much every song, at least on the Tusk and Mirage tours. He didn’t play them extended, but he did try some new things in those. These days, with the Fleetwood Mac show being what it is, he doesn’t do that. That already takes away from the spontaneity. That he has pre-arranged spots during the show when he can play what he wants within the given chord, only proves that spontaneity isn’t very allowed within FM performances these days. I guess the lack of drugs is also a problem.

Originally posted by seteca
There has never been a 96 note/bar tapping sequence in ISA because that wouldn't really serve either the song or his emotion in any useful way.

I agree with this. A single note can say a lot. Just listen to Neil Young’s “Southern Man”, when he plays it for at least fifty times in a row. I’m sure LB doesn’t want to play fast live, because it wouldn’t really fit the songs. And it’s easier for him too.

Is the list regarding pure technical ability or the emotion with which the guitar is played and/or the emotion it creates within the listener? Does the list allow flamenco or classical guitarists (who are undoubtedly some of the most technically gifted guitarists in the world and who seem to be missing from all of these lists)? etc etc[/B]

Another agreement. Such lists wouldn’t have much information value to anyone. Some musicologists have argued over the years that classical music is superior to rock music, and therefore classical players would be superior to rock players. Simply because when you look at the notes it’s easy to say which is more complex, challenging and uses richer chords. The notes however, cannot convey the emotion, the tone colour and the phrasing. That’s where most of the fascination of jazz and rock is.

They're there because they love to play.[/B]

Which raises the question: does Lindsey really get that much enjoyment from playing on stage nowadays? But see another thread for that.

At least we both love LB. Otherwise we’d probably be stepping on each other’s throats by now. This is starting to resemble a typical male discussion on cars.

[David]

Originally posted by face of glass
The thing is, Lindsey of the past played different solos on pretty much every song, at least on the Tusk and Mirage tours. He didn’t play them extended, but he did try some new things in those.

I disagree a smidgin. Part of what was so interesting about the 1979/80 tour was the way that songs unfurled, throughout the year, into tangled, intricate mazes. Owing to whatever -- exhaustion, drugs, confidence -- the four Fleetwood Mac players really let loose in their evolving arrangements night after night (bear in mind that we're talking Mac at the Village Recorder, not Coltrane at the Village Vanguard, but within their own somewhat limited, defined boundaries, this incarnation of Fleetwood was in its vamping heyday). Take any five-month period of touring from 1979/80, & you'll hear quite a bit more ad lib & all-around evolution in the arrangements than you hear in any number currently being performed over the same time frame on this tour. For example, listen to "World Turning" or "I'm So Afraid" at a December 1979 show -- say, Los Angeles -- & compare it with a performance from June 1980 (like Cologne, for example).

This incarnation will never be that brave (or reckless, if you prefer) again onstage. Them days are over. And a big part of that must be because of the number of people actually playing something at a Fleetwood Mac show -- way too many to allow a notable breakdown in structure or form (although, again, it never stopped jazz players or even rock players like the Grateful Dead).

[EveryHour]

Originally posted by John Run


Great guitarists in no particular order and Lindsey is on this list.

Chet Atkins
Mark Knopfler
Ricky Skaggs (mandolin)
Scotty Moore
Nils Lofgren
Dan Tymisnki
Stone Gossard (Pearl Jam)
Peter Buck
The Edge
Don Felder
Wes Montgomery
Jimi Hendrix
Slash
Steve Winwood
Eric Clapton
Earl Skruggs (Banjo)
Vince Gill
Jose Neto
Narciso Yepes
Eric Johnson
Lindsey Buckingham

NO WAY! Another Nils Lofgren fan! Loved him for years!!! Total passion, like Lindsey!

Lindsey definitely belongs in the Top 20. His passion is unbelievable and his style completely unique. It's hard to compare and rank those who are better technically (who also play beautifully), and those who are better emotionally. Lindsey makes me FEEL until my head wants to pop off, and that's what matters to me!

Also, no one seems to be actually slamming him or anything, but Jack White IS amazing. The White Stripes are my boyfriend's fave band and I went to see them recently. I had wondered about his placement on the Rolling Stone list because he's so "new", but they are one of the few newer bands who are the "real thing" and I hope they're around for a long time. They have no bass player, so Jack brilliantly covers everything on the guitar and he plays a mean slide too! Perhaps compared to others on the list who have been around longer, he maybe should have ranked lower, but maybe they felt he was so significant because he's kind of causing "a movement" among all of the crap out there (and I do agree that is important).

I'm rambling about a list I think is crap anyway for not including LB! Forgive me.

[face of glass]

I agree David. I did put too much emphasis on LB, when it should have been put on all instrumentalists.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by face of glass
If we’re speaking of soloing technique, then Lindsey can’t be near the top. His solos don’t really ram up and down the fretboard and they are neither complex nor particularly fast.

Like Neil Young...Lindsey OVER uses the "one-note solo" thing just WAY too much ("The Chain", most of "I'm So Afraid", on Walter Egan's "Hot Summer Night", John Stewart's "Gold", etc).

Granted, Clapton & Santana have lusted after that "ONE NOTE" that'll express all emotions, but in Lindsey & Neil's cases, less is NOT more.

Originally posted by face of glass
Can you even get close to the hair-metal runs of the album version of “Come” with a Turner? ChiliD, any experience on this?

If you mean the TONE of his guitar through those solos, yeah...but most of the sound he gets on that are from fx pedals or amp overdrive, not from the guitar itself.

DISCLAIMER: (Just because I have a Turner, doesn't imply that I sit down and try to copy every note of a Lindsey Buckingham guitar solo. In fact, I don't do that with ANY guitarist anymore. After playing for 35 years, I've kind of grown into my own style & sound. I may play other people's tunes close to their versions, but I don't worry about trying to EXACTLY replicate them.)

The Turner can pretty much "do it all" tone-wise, except get those "squwaky" out of phase tones of a Fender Strat (like early Mark Knopfler, or Derek & The Dominos and later 70's era Clapton).

[seteca]

Originally posted by face of glass
At least we both love LB. Otherwise we’d probably be stepping on each other’s throats by now. This is starting to resemble a typical male discussion on cars.

What....are you going to start telling me that the Ferrari 355 ISN'T the greatest car of all time??

It's really great to have you on The Ledge, Face Of Glass. I can't remember the last time a (relatively) new Ledgie instantly made such interesting/relevant points and arguments. A real pleasure to have an FM-related discussion with you.

(Inspired by ChiliD's) Just a little disclaimer of my own aswell...! I don't sit down and try to figure out anybody's solo "note for note" either. If I really like a song and I feel like playing the solo, I'll sit down for about 10 minutes with an unplugged guitar and the song playing and just roughly figure out what scales (not the names...that's where I'm musically stupid! Just the shapes!) the solo is based around. Then I just play along to the song, playing in-effect my own solo, based around the original. I feel that's infinitely more emotionally rewarding than sitting down and trying to obsessively figure out and play every note of a solo note for note. When I play along to the live versions of "Come", I don't follow LB's lead at all. I just play whatever I feel like. On the (nowadays) rare occasion that I might play along to the studio version, I play it about 90/95% like LB does (but only because I love the path that solo takes) and the reason for the 5/10% difference isn't because I "can't" play a particular part, but simply because I may at that instant feel like playing a different note(s) on the same scale. But yea, it is very possible to play the studio version solo note for note on the Model One. (Even though a Strat has a very helpful double cutaway it actually is impossible to play the solo on one because it requires fret 23, which of course doesn't exist on the Strat.) I highly doubt that he played it on the Model One though. Whatever it was, it was most likely a double octave neck, double cutaway body, going through a multi-fx box.



p.s. Actually, I lied, regarding the "never play any solo note for note": it took me a couple of days to figure out the Live in London '94 (PULSE) version of Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb." Ever since I worked out how to play it, I've never changed it even by a single note when I play all 5 minutes of it, because I truly believe it is the greatest pre-arranged solo of all time. Simply an amazing, amazing, musical composition. Kinda feel the same way about the live version of Big Love: I don't change it because it's not meant to be changed.

[seteca]

Originally posted by Gazza
Out of interest, what other lesser known and more famous guitarists has Lindsey been a big influence on? I'm aware of a few but just wondering who I may have missed.

Well I was actually referring to "Mr. X" who nobody has ever heard of but is still an amazing, "pro-level" guitarist. There must be 100s, if not 1000s of unknown guitarists out there in the world who have been heavily influenced by Lindsey Buckingham's playing. (Take the people who "play" Lindsey in all the Fleetwood Mac tribute bands around the world as one example!) There is a guitarist (called Jamie) who plays at the Noble Rot bar in London, during jamming/open sessions there and seeing him play is absolutely awesome. He's the most confident player I have ever seen in my life. He plays the electric with a pick, but he told me his "sense of lead" is totally inspired by Lindsey Buckingham, and his "style" is greatly inspired by Joe Perry.

"Famous" guitarists who have said that they have been greatly influenced/inspired by Lindsey Buckingham's playing include Peter Buck (R.E.M.), Jerry Cantrell (Alice In Chains) and Todd Norcross. I'm sure there are many others but those three come to mind at the moment.

[Les]

Out of interest, what other lesser known and more famous guitarists has Lindsey been a big influence on?

Another addition to Seteca's list: Keith Urban (country artist) has repeatedly cited Lindsey as a big influence.

[Lee]

Why, right here in Delaware! I'm just kidding, really Kristen, I am just kidding.

His guitar playing rates right up there with me, & yes, I am biased, very biased. Why he never makes any lists is beyond me.

Lee

[madformac]

Originally posted by seteca
What....are you going to start telling me that the Ferrari 355 ISN'T the greatest car of all time??

Well it's not........ The Ferrari 575 Maranello is!


Then I just play along to the song, playing in-effect my own solo, based around the original. I feel that's infinitely more emotionally rewarding than sitting down and trying to obsessively figure out and play every note of a solo note for note. When I play along to the live versions of "Come", I don't follow LB's lead at all. I just play whatever I feel like.

And I thought it was just me that did that!!!!

Live in London '94 (PULSE) version of Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb." ..... I truly believe it is the greatest pre-arranged solo of all time. Simply an amazing, amazing, musical composition.

I can't argue with that one.

But to think Rolling Stone had David Gilmour down in the 80's in the top 100 guitarists!!!!!