Say You Will sales ten years after release

[secret love]

Originally Posted by redbird

For me the best songs on this album are just so much better than the worst ones, I can't figure out why they're together except that they were ready to go. But then as someone else pointed out, what's good and what's bad is subjective and we all have different opinions. I feel like the creme de la creme of SYW is only 10-12 songs, but I wouldn't need to cut that many so long as I could be rid of "Say You Will" and especially "What's the World Coming To". Lindsey may have done amazing things on this record, but o h m y g o d that song is such pap. The other 16 songs I can deal with. Even though I think that "Illume" and "Silver Girl" are a little too awkward at points, and "Peacekeeper" and "Steal Your Heart Away" are also a little bland (not nearly as bad as WTWCT). "Come" and "Goodbye Baby" aren't especially meaningful to me but I can appreciate them.

I always think of SYW as two albums, but not necessary the Stevie solo album + the Lindsey solo album, rather the album I want and the album I don't But yes it's subjective. Maybe it's my attention span at fault; I really like albums to be artistic statements in themselves, either that or retrospective compilations, and I feel like SYW would hold my attention more if it was shorter and told more of a story. It doesn't fascinate me the way double-album Tusk did, I mean, at least 8 of the songs are ostensibly designed to be radio-friendly (but I don't like 2003 radio the way I like 1977 radio, granted I've only heard 1977 radio through the oldies station), and some of that feels a lot like filler to me.

I do have a personal version of SYW I put on my own iPod, but it's not perfect either so I don't imagine I could do sooo much better. For one, Stevie's songs are way more "topical" in that, if this is the story of Fleetwood Mac since the The Dance reunion, all the songs I'd keep of hers are either about Lindsey to some extent or about herself in the context of relationships, while Lindsey's got songs about the news media and politics and whatnot. I'm sure someone else could make a sound argument against my choices. (If anyone cares, "Miranda", "Thrown Down" and "Bleed to Love Her" would be the first three spots in some order, then "Murrow" followed by "Everybody Finds Out" followed by "Smile At You" as the **** Just Got Real part of the album, then "Red Rover" as a breather, and then it has to end with "Running Through the Garden", "Destiny Rules", and "Say Goodbye".)

This thread did make me re-listen to the album again, and boy "Say Goodbye" really is much better slowed down ala the live performances. Still a moving song though. "I fall down, I get up" has become something of a coping mechanism for me personally, hahah, glad to know I'm not the only one Lindsey.

(I'm sorry I know this thread is a month old, I'm bored and I didn't get to go to my concert and I needed to talk Mac )

Funny that you say you can't stand What's the World Coming To ...I really like it and find it quite endearing. It sounds like a political statement to me almost (like Peacekeeper) - it's a nice little departure from the Mac's usual subject matter (love, relationships, fellow band members). Say You Will I fell in love with from the first listen and it also helped to inspire me to write my first song.

I hated Say Goodbye at first because it sounded very cliched to my ear and instrumentally quite bland. However it has grown on me particularly after viewing the professionally shot 2003 (Live in Boston) and 2005 (Live at the Bass Performance Hall) live performances of the song - there is some beauty in these gentle performances that did not really translate well on to tape in my opinion. Goodbye Baby is beautiful...for me it's more about end of life than the end of Stevie and Lindsey's relationship. If you were to interpret the lyrics literally it could be about an abortion, or a miscarriage...but who knows?

Thrown Down and Steal Your Heart Away were the stand out tracks for me on the Say You Will record. I know Thrown Down was written in 1997 and that Stevie said it is about Lindsey...but this doesn't really make sense to me (unless the song is a complete lie hehe!). "He fell for her again/She watched it happen" and "Maybe now he could prove to her that he could be good for her and that they should be together" don't really fit with what BN were saying at the time, e.g. Lindsey suggesting (tongue in cheek/sarcastically) that he and Stevie might hook up again sometime soon (It was a joke - he did not seem to have any desire for this to happen)... Stevie responding with "Over my dead body"

Anyway, Thrown Down is a great song and Steal Your Heart Away is too - it's just wonderful. I really liked Say You Will as a complete album. Could have done without Murrow, Red Rover, Smile at You, Say Goodbye. The Dance version of Bleed to Love Her is my favourite but I like both versions (live and studio). SYW is definitely reminiscent of Tusk (Tusk is obviously a superior product, but both albums are experimental to varying degrees, both are double albums). I loved Stevie's bonus track Not Make Believe - love: "It hurts my self esteem, it hurts my every-thing. I am reeling ooh it hurts my feelings"!

SYW does feel like the Stevie show to me though - let's face it, Lindsey put just two new songs on the table (I think they were WTWCT and Peacekeeper). Stevie wrote four great new songs with Fleetwood Mac in mind (SYW, Illume, Destiny Rules, Silver Girl) and finally finished and recorded some great demos diehard fans no doubt had been wanting for years ... she didn't just lift the majority of her contribution of songs off what was intended to be a solo record like Lindsey. That said - they both brought their A-game. Was a shame Stevie only performed two of her own SYW songs on the 2003-2004 world tour. Would have been good to keep Running Through the Garden and Destiny Rules in the set, even better have all the eight "new" songs played on opening night plus Steal Your Heart Away and Thrown Down.

This post has gone on much too long ... sorry guys! Here's something I thought might be worth sharing while I think of it (writing about Goodbye Baby made me think of this song for some reason... if you haven't heard it do yourself a favour and give it a listen!).

Sigh ... so many great unreleased songs to her name and Stevie still will not contribute to a new Fleetwood Mac album...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UurPDrrRe4

[MikeVielhaber]

Originally Posted by secret love

SYW is definitely reminiscent of Tusk (Tusk is obviously a superior product, but both albums are experimental to varying degrees, both are double albums).

This was discussed on another music forum I frequent. I think there's a difference between a double album and a long single CD album. It has to do with the artist's intent. A single album and a double album are usually different in more than just length. They even went on and on about double vs. single in the documentary with single winning out (Lindsey being the only advocate for double). So I view SYW as a single album and Tusk a double even though SYW is (barely) longer, time wise.

[KarmaContestant]

I wish Fleetwood Mac had performed the entire SYW album when they toured in 2003.

They could have done some old hits for a four or six song encore.

Siouxsie just peformed at Yoko Ono's Meltdown in London, and she performed the Banshees entire third album, in the original tracklist order, took a break, then came out and did another 10 songs or so to satisfy the audience craving for 'hits'.

[secret love]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

I wish Fleetwood Mac had performed the entire SYW album when they toured in 2003.

They could have done some old hits for a four or six song encore.

Siouxsie just peformed at Yoko Ono's Meltdown in London, and she performed the Banshees entire third album, in the original tracklist order, took a break, then came out and did another 10 songs or so to satisfy the audience craving for 'hits'.

That would have been awesome! Though when Fleetwood Mac can't even bring themselves to play all four songs on their EP live, it does seem unlikely that they would play more than the usual four to six songs live from any future full-length albums with accompanying tours.

I've read about other artists playing entire albums start to finish at their concerts - what I read said they normally play the non-album tracks first then shoot right into the album. The reverse of that as you described could work well too - guess it just depends on the artist/band as to how they arrange the setlist.

What's the general feeling amongst Ledgies regarding the likelihood of at least one final Fleetwood Mac album? Which band members (past and present) do we think will be involved? (These questions probably belong in a different thread)

Regarding the original poster's concern with SYW sales ten years after release, I reckon it would have achieved platinum status by now. Interesting how in 1979-1980 Tusk achieved double platinum status (possibly triple or quadruple platinum by now maybe) but was regarded as a commercial failure. I bet Lindsey, Mick, John and Stevie would be thrilled to achieve double platinum sales in today's climate!

How times change...

[redbird]

secret love,

Stevie might have said "Over my dead body" out loud but that doesn't mean part of her didn't wanted to be persuaded (and Lindsey would have to "prove to her" that it wouldn't be dark and miserable again). And I'm not the biggest expert on the topic but Lindsey's body language in the 5-member interview for the The Dance reunion (April 97?) kinda makes me think he was pretty sincerely interested. I'm sure it's covered in other threads though.

About the songs' sources: if Lindsey's songs come from solo projects, if Stevie's come from old demos, it doesn't really affect my appreciation of the album so long as the songs are well written, well produced, well performed, and hopefully hang together. Stevie writes in such a way that she can separate when she's writing specifically *for* Fleetwood Mac and when she's not. Christine never wrote that way, though, and maybe Lindsey's creative process can't strictly be fit into that model either.

For whatever reason I find the disparate decadence on Tusk more interesting than SYW, but as this goes to show, different strokes for different folks

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by secret love

That would have been awesome! Though when Fleetwood Mac can't even bring themselves to play all four songs on their EP live, it does seem unlikely that they would play more than the usual four to six songs live from any future full-length albums with accompanying tours.

I've read about other artists playing entire albums start to finish at their concerts - what I read said they normally play the non-album tracks first then shoot right into the album. The reverse of that as you described could work well too - guess it just depends on the artist/band as to how they arrange the setlist.

Yeah... Fleetwood Mac doing this type of thing is pretty unlikely to ever happen, but I think it's a great way to do a show when promoting a new album.

For SYW, it might have been harder to find room for fan favorites only because the album is already 18 tracks. But for the current tour? An entire album would be easy, and still leave enough room in the setlist for a dozen top-40 tracks. They could even mix it up - perform Mirage one night, and Rumours the next, and Tango the following show. Of course....without Christine, the magic of performing an entire album would be greatly diminished.

And I'm not sure Stevie can remember that many lyrics.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by redbird

About the songs' sources: if Lindsey's songs come from solo projects, if Stevie's come from old demos, it doesn't really affect my appreciation of the album so long as the songs are well written, well produced, well performed, and hopefully hang together. Stevie writes in such a way that she can separate when she's writing specifically *for* Fleetwood Mac and when she's not. Christine never wrote that way, though, and maybe Lindsey's creative process can't strictly be fit into that model either.

My biggest criticism of SYW (ok, besides the fact that there are a couple of Stevie's tunes I just cannot stand) is that Lindsey was seemingly really lazy (or just downright uncreative) about his guitar parts. "Destiny Rules", "Peacekeeper", "Thrown Down", "Miranda" & "Murrow..." all start with eerily similar sounding guitar parts that it takes me a few seconds to name which song it is. It's as if his creativity just got caught in a rut like a car tire on a snow-covered country road's shoulder.

Originally Posted by redbird

I do have a personal version of SYW I put on my own iPod, but it's not perfect either so I don't imagine I could do sooo much better.

I did that with Tusk...as well as Say You Will...and since most of Lindsey's tunes were nicked (no pun intended) from the aborted original GOS album, I did the same thing...replaced a couple of his SYW songs with songs from the original GOS I felt flowed better (and sounded more "Fleetwood Mac-ish", that he later officially released on solo album(s)...also did a similar thing with one of Stevie's tunes, too).

Here's how it came out:

Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Thrown Down (used the "Wall Of Sound" version...or "TISL version" whichever you want to call it...it just SOUNDS more "Fleetwood Mac" to my ears...plus it gets rid of one of those cloned sounding guitar intros)
Try For The Sun (yeah, it's a cover, but the lyrical content seems to pretty much nail the whole "Lindsey & Stevie" thing than "Red Rover")
Destiny Rules
What's The World Coming To?
Illume
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Peacekeeper (would've preferred the solo Lindsey version, which is a bit faster, but the SYW version has Stevie's voice which makes it more "Mac")
Everybody Finds Out
Miranda
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Down On Rodeo (with Mick & John on this track, why it didn't make the album to begin with is just downright a head-scratcher...maybe the victim of the "no we're not making a double CD"). Could've almost ended the album with it, but with 2 "Goodbye" songs to choose from, I just couldn't put it last.
Goodbye Baby

[UndoingTheLaces]

Originally Posted by redbird

...if this is the story of Fleetwood Mac since the The Dance reunion, all the songs I'd keep of hers are either about Lindsey to some extent or about herself in the context of relationships, while Lindsey's got songs about the news media and politics and whatnot.

I think it would have been great to have the continuing saga of Stevie and Lindsey played out almost in tribute to Rumors since they specifically steered clear of making a Rumors II, as Lindsey often puts it, and Stevie did a great job of playing that up for Say You Will. She knew the fans would eat it up and we do. The idea that there's an alternate universe where Buckingham & Nicks are a couple and have put the past aside is very appealing. But I'm sure it's hard enough for his wife and children to see all the press about their decades old relationship in the media all the time, can you imagine what it would be like for him to be writing love songs to her now?

Although I must admit there's a really tragic element in Thrown Down even though it's a relatively happy sounding song. The fact that she wrote it during the Dance tour and it has this sort of feeling that maybe there's still a chance. Then he gets married and has some kids and it's like "so... there's this song I wrote... and it's not about you... but it's about this... guy... who I used to date and have a band with and moved to LA with and did a lot of cocaine and sex with... and it's about how we're in love again after many years and how it could finally work out for us... but it's not you."

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by UndoingTheLaces

Although I must admit there's a really tragic element in Thrown Down even though it's a relatively happy sounding song.

You think so? I don't think it's happy sounding at all. I think it's heart breaking. Any optimism it mentions is in the past tense, like looking through a rearview window. Well, I thought it might work out . . . but it didn't.

But it's beautiful. You've shaken my faith in everything else. It just says to me, "I still believe in you, despite everything" and that's just SOB.

Michele

[redbird]

Oh yeah I don't expect Lindsey to really air his side of whatever went on around The Dance particularly loudly (although with three songs on Extended Play that seem to be all about Stevie ... ), just saying, my idea of a concept to build a shorter version of SYW around isn't strictly cohesive either.

I think they're used to the weirdness of going into the studio and getting acquainted with each other's songs for the first time and how coincidentally familiar those stories sound, although probably it's still something of a trip every time.

"Thrown Down" is a pretty emotionally tough song, yes, all Stevie's songs that have to do with her relationship with faith and hopefulness and believing always get to me a bit.

[UndoingTheLaces]

Originally Posted by michelej1

You think so? I don't think it's happy sounding at all. I think it's heart breaking. Any optimism it mentions is in the past tense, like looking through a rearview window. Well, I thought it might work out . . . but it didn't.

But it's beautiful. You've shaken my faith in everything else. It just says to me, "I still believe in you, despite everything" and that's just SOB.

Michele

It's got some really sweet moments. Like "He held her hands, she listened to what he had to say" and "Maybe now he could prove to her that he could be good for her and they should be together". Lots of songs are written in the past tense. That doesn't mean that the feeling of the song is over. We know it's over because of what we know about them in real life but in the context of the song it could be interpreted to mean that after many years they finally found peace with each other. And the last line about how he'd never told her how hard it was without her sort of leads you to believe that he's telling her that now. I guess everyone can have different interpretations of it.

[BlueLight]

I've struggled to compile a good, pared down track listing for SYW for quite some time. Here's my current, still imperfect 11-track list:

Say You Will (Single Remix Cold Edit)
Miranda
Thrown Down
Red Rover
Running Through The Garden
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Bleed To Love Her
Destiny Rules
Steal Your Heart Away
Goodbye Baby

[StevieNicksfann]

I still love the album but the running order for me changes depending on mood. The one thing I consistently feel, however, is that Not Make Believe should have made the regular version of the album. In fact, I think it would have been a great single.

Thrown Down
Miranda
Running Through The Garden
Steal Your Heart Away
Destiny Rules
Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Not Make Believe
Say Goodbye
Smile At You
Everybody Finds Out
What's The World Coming To?
Silver Girl
Peacekeeper
Goodbye Baby

Illume is the only Stevie song that although I like, I can't seem to fit in sequence that makes sense to me.

Singles to me would have been:

Thrown Down
Miranda
Say You Will (I think would have been stronger if it preceded Peacekeeper which should never have been a single in its current form or at the very least should not have led off the album in singles)
Bleed To Love Her
Running Through The Garden
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Goodbye Baby

I could also see potentially Peacekeeper, Destiny Rules, Everybody Finds Out, and What's The World Coming To? as singles if they had remixing.

[secondhandchain]

ugh Running through the Garden is terrible and Murrow is not single material. I agree about Everybody finds out.

[Macfanforever]

I have to say SYW done great with excellent radio airplay then.