Stevie as scapegoat

[dreamsunwind]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

You don't think that the band has catered to Lindsey as well? They've allowed him to control nearly every aspect of the music for the better part of 40 years.

He's the one that produces lol. Of course he's gonna 'control' a lot having to do with the music. That's usually what producers do. Especially a producer who also writes. But I agree Lindsey has been/probably still can be very pushy about what he wants in the studio. Tusk for example was mostly all his brainchild and his insistence that they do it that way but frankly, thank god for that because I'm absolutely convinced that the legacy of the band would not have been what it was had they made Rumours 2.0 like the rest of them all wanted. But then after Tusk flopped, it's well known he ended up doing what they wanted for Mirage. Even 'recently' (although it's not really that recent) with SYW, he REALLY wanted a double album and was all dramatic and annoying about it. But then, it actually didn't happen! He caved and dropped it. So yes, they've given Lindsey the reins a lot in the studio but it's largely been to their benefit in the grand scheme of things and Lindsey has also given up things that he was doing solo in order to do a band project when they wanted (Tango, SYW, etc).
But anyways that's not what I was talking about when I said catering. I meant very literally that, probably ever since after The Dance, they've recorded only when Stevie was willing to record, they've toured only when Stevie wants to tour, when Stevie wanted a delay she got it, when Stevie didn't want to make an album they had to put it out as a duet, etc. They would give Lindsey the reins when they're actually in the studio, but they're basically letting Stevie control IF they even get into a studio and when they go on tour. That's what I think isn't right. Don't call it 'Fleetwood Mac' if ONE member can determine when they go on tour and whether or not they record an album.

[Sugar Mouse]

Originally Posted by dreamsunwind

He's the one that produces lol. Of course he's gonna 'control' a lot having to do with the music. That's usually what producers do. Especially a producer who also writes. But I agree Lindsey has been/probably still can be very pushy about what he wants in the studio. Tusk for example was mostly all his brainchild and his insistence that they do it that way but frankly, thank god for that because I'm absolutely convinced that the legacy of the band would not have been what it was had they made Rumours 2.0 like the rest of them all wanted. But then after Tusk flopped, it's well known he ended up doing what they wanted for Mirage. Even 'recently' (although it's not really that recent) with SYW, he REALLY wanted a double album and was all dramatic and annoying about it. But then, it actually didn't happen! He caved and dropped it. So yes, they've given Lindsey the reins a lot in the studio but it's largely been to their benefit in the grand scheme of things and Lindsey has also given up things that he was doing solo in order to do a band project when they wanted (Tango, SYW, etc).
But anyways that's not what I was talking about when I said catering. I meant very literally that, probably ever since after The Dance, they've recorded only when Stevie was willing to record, they've toured only when Stevie wants to tour, when Stevie wanted a delay she got it, when Stevie didn't want to make an album they had to put it out as a duet, etc. They would give Lindsey the reins when they're actually in the studio, but they're basically letting Stevie control IF they even get into a studio and when they go on tour. That's what I think isn't right. Don't call it 'Fleetwood Mac' if ONE member can determine when they go on tour and whether or not they record an album.

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

[Dr.Brown]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

Again, only one member of the band views him as "exhausting" and has refused to record with him. This one member of the band has now been given carte blanche because, when push comes to shove, Mick knows which side his bread is buttered on and that's all the money-grubber really gives a sh!t about.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

So now Lindsey's not a good producer? You know more about his process than Christine McVie does? She has actively praised him, yet you dismiss her opinion. That's rather presumptuous of you.

If you truly knew these people and their professional proclivities as well as you insinuate, you would not act as if her words are worthless and superimpose your own narrative on top of them.

[Sugar Mouse]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

So now Lindsey's not a good producer? You know more about his process than Christine McVie does? She has actively praised him, yet you dismiss her opinion. That's rather presumptuous of you.

If you truly knew these people and their professional proclivities as well as you insinuate, you would not act as if her words are worthless and superimpose your own narrative on top of them.

Where exactly did I say that Lindsey isn't a good producer? I said that Lindsey is a producer that likes to control every detail and likes to take a long time to produce his records and some people (Stevie) find this exhausting.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Where exactly did I say that Lindsey isn't a good producer? I said that Lindsey is a producer that likes to control every detail and likes to take a long time to produce his records and some people (Stevie) find this exhausting.

He would drive me up the wall if I had to work with him in the studio, to be sure. But he wasn't merely a producer for that band. He was a songwriter and the lead guitarist, and he was the only one in the band who had much expertise with orchestration. He was George Martin and Paul McCartney and possibly John Lennon all rolled into one. He was the only one in the band who spent painstaking hours mastering recording technology, studying classic tracks by taking them apart and observing their components, and exploring new technology (like the Fairlight) for use with Fleetwood Mac. None of the other four were interested in sonics. It's natural that the band turned over a lot of the studio crafting to him, certainly the reins for building demos into finished tracks. He was the perfect svengali for Fleetwood Mac's non-live approach.

But for Mirage, he had to back off or dial it all down. They told him there would be no more band fragmentation in the building of tracks, no more recording his own bass or drums or keyboards at home and then using those recordings in the finished product.

For Tango, he was forced by circumstance to exert more control than on Mirage. Stevie and John weren't around, and Mick was baked all day. Only Christine and Richard worked with him on a sustained basis to get that album finished, and they all had to employ all manner of tricks to fake the sound of a whole band participating fully.

It's important to remember that Stevie has had major problems with several of her solo producers. Many of those relationships have gone sour for some reasons we know and many we don't: Iovine, Glyn Johns, Rupert Hine, etc. I think Stevie has a sensitive gag reflex in the studio, maybe because she's not as self-confident as she could be.

[aleuzzi]

Lindsey was/is a control freak in the studio. But that's the kind of person you need in order to get the sound from good to distinctive. Each of FM's albums under his direction has a unique SOUND, even if the sound differs from record to record. I don't always love his choices but they serve a purpose: studio-wise, FM with LB doesn't sound like a run-of-the-mill band. That's something.

One of the things I've always hated about LB's Tusk songs is that he doesn't allow the other two singers to sing on them. The Tusk tour rehearsal version of "Save Me A Place" is exciting because of their harmonies. As much as his 1000 voice dubs sounds cool, it sounds so much better with the full band participation. I think the same way about the instrumentation on "What Makes You Think..."

I don't think any of the band has ever played on any version of "Big Love."

[AliP]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

One of the things I've always hated about LB's Tusk songs is that he doesn't allow the other two singers to sing on them. The Tusk tour rehearsal version of "Save Me A Place" is exciting because of their harmonies. As much as his 1000 voice dubs sounds cool, it sounds so much better with the full band participation. I think the same way about the instrumentation on "What Makes You Think..."

I don't think any of the band has ever played on any version of "Big Love."

Yes, I agree with that. It was like his songs on Tusk were his solo songs with no other input from any other member. I remember that was the first thing I noticed when I first listened to the Tusk album. Then, of course, on CMV and SN songs he's singing background, sharing vocals etc. That's fine because I love the Tusk album. But it's apparent on Tusk he was already in the "solo" state of mind.

[Straightback]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

One of the things I've always hated about LB's Tusk songs is that he doesn't allow the other two singers to sing on them. The Tusk tour rehearsal version of "Save Me A Place" is exciting because of their harmonies. As much as his 1000 voice dubs sounds cool, it sounds so much better with the full band participation. I think the same way about the instrumentation on "What Makes You Think..."

I don't think any of the band has ever played on any version of "Big Love."

Absolutely agree. I remember when I got the "Tusk" super deluxe edition and hearing "I Know I'm Not Wrong (11/2/78 version)" with Stevie doing harmonies and I was blown away that that was not the version to make it onto the album. So much more interesting and energized.

[dreamsunwind]

Originally Posted by David

He would drive me up the wall if I had to work with him in the studio, to be sure. But he wasn't merely a producer for that band. He was a songwriter and the lead guitarist, and he was the only one in the band who had much expertise with orchestration. He was George Martin and Paul McCartney and possibly John Lennon all rolled into one. He was the only one in the band who spent painstaking hours mastering recording technology, studying classic tracks by taking them apart and observing their components, and exploring new technology (like the Fairlight) for use with Fleetwood Mac. None of the other four were interested in sonics. It's natural that the band turned over a lot of the studio crafting to him, certainly the reins for building demos into finished tracks. He was the perfect svengali for Fleetwood Mac's non-live approach.

But for Mirage, he had to back off or dial it all down. They told him there would be no more band fragmentation in the building of tracks, no more recording his own bass or drums or keyboards at home and then using those recordings in the finished product.

For Tango, he was forced by circumstance to exert more control than on Mirage. Stevie and John weren't around, and Mick was baked all day. Only Christine and Richard worked with him on a sustained basis to get that album finished, and they all had to employ all manner of tricks to fake the sound of a whole band participating fully.

It's important to remember that Stevie has had major problems with several of her solo producers. Many of those relationships have gone sour for some reasons we know and many we don't: Iovine, Glyn Johns, Rupert Hine, etc. I think Stevie has a sensitive gag reflex in the studio, maybe because she's not as self-confident as she could be.

This was so well said.

[SisterNightroad]

Originally Posted by David

He was the perfect svengali for Fleetwood Mac's non-live approach.

I don't want to sound evil because it's not my intention, but Svengali was a negative (and possibly anti-semite) character.

[louielouie2000]

To me, assigning blame to Stevie is simply a matter of deduction. We know that Chris was not party to the decision to fire Lindsey- she was simply informed of it after the fact. I cannot fathom John having any other opinion than deferring to Mick. We know that Mick is ALWAYS desperate to tour, and that he's also very close with Stevie. We also know Mick will always side with whatever keeps the band going and money flowing, which also means he'll bend to Stevie's wishes- she's the cash cow. Stevie's very rigid 3 years between FM tours rule has been drilled into everyone's heads, too... and it's been 3 years. Finally, Stevie's issues with Lindsey are very well documented. To me, it's plain Stevie and Lindsey came to an impasse... and Stevie won the game of chicken.

As to exactly what the impasse was, I think that's irrelevant. If it was because Lindsey wanted to put off a FM tour for a year so he can do a solo album/tour- so what? FM has spent most of the 21st century waiting around for Stevie. If Lindsey wanted to sprinkle in solo dates with the FM tour- again, why would they care? His 21st century audiences number in the hundreds... it's not like his shows would have a measurable impact on FM's bottom line. If Lindsey was insisting on a new FM album before touring... again, why should that equate to his firing? Clearly Stevie is the only one averse to recording... why should she be able to fire Lindsey when she's in the minority?

And I'll reiterate I am not now nor have I ever been primarily a Lindsey fan. Stevie has always been my favorite FM member... but my love of FM by far eclipses my love of her solo work, ten to one. I'm no misogynist, either (like most gay men, I prefer the company of women). Nor am I an Enquirer-reading Trumpite (I'm a registered Democrat). All of these things have been hurled at those of us angry about Lindsey's firing. All that most people on this board wanted was a final album from the Rumours 5... which is why we're so upset by this whole thing, end of story. We won't get that now, and it's very clear to us who is to blame.

[markolas]

I will also say that, while I still love Stevie and FM and listen to their music often, I’m at a point where that’s all I really care about. I’m not that interested in their interpersonal relationships or their personal lives anymore and I have no interest in assigning blame to Stevie or anyone. Once I got over the initial shock, it just...didn’t matter to me that much.

“With all due respect, Miss, I have my own problems.”

[dreamsunwind]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/1...instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!

[Storms123]

Originally Posted by dreamsunwind

I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/1...instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!

Stevie herself has said how lucky she is to have someone like Lindsey on her songs. It was during "The Dance" promos---and let's not forget "Soldiers Angel" and "Twisted"