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  #136  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:59 PM
anusha anusha is offline
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Definitely agree. What I was trying to do is figure out the thought process within Stevie, and also Mick/McVies/Azoff that got them to a point where firing Lindsey became a viable option, because it's clear that she and Lindsey probably stopped getting along in any kind of consistent way in 1976, except for a brief respite around The Dance, and the show of affection they/Stevie put on for the media to sell tickets between 1997 and 2016. Like, they were willing to milk that faux-romantic LB/SN stage dynamic for just about 20 years to sell tickets after The Dance, so I found it interesting to figure out what changed to make them decide to boot Lindsey after all that time.

Stevie is a master marketer of her image, and she is aware that talking about Lindsey sells. Maybe she wanted to clear her name because she saw some online backlash to the firing but she also has consistently mentioned Lindsey in her solo press for many, many years. They broke up in 1976, and he stopped having any real role in producing music with her in 2003, so he has very little relevance to her musical projects or her personal life. Yet, she talks about him a whole lot. It's best to just ignore all of it, because it's wildly inconsistent and mostly untrue.
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  #137  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:23 PM
UnwindedDreams UnwindedDreams is offline
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^ I think Lindsey would've been fired before the 2009, 13, or 14 Tour if they all believe Carol Ann Harris.

Mick kept Lindsey because none of those clowns knew how to be a director or an "office manager". She can talk about being a restaurant server for a few years but she never worked a job that required critical thinking.

Lindsey came up with visions for albums and crafted concert setlists and arrangements. She showed up to a concert rehearsal and all she had to do was say which songs she wanted to sing while sitting on her "director's chair" and say I want a little time to go down stage and bang my head so you guys just jam a little.

I don't know what Stevie gains by talking about Lindsey. It brings him more attention.
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  #138  
Old 12-17-2020, 04:46 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is online now
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if we're going to look at the behavior of many men in Stevie's life over the years, MANY of them meet various definitions of abuse- maybe not necessarily physical but (to me) clearly emotional and psychological abuse (at a minimum things like gaslighting and demeaning her and her work). I would definitely put Joe at the top of that list. I think JD Souther too in a different way-- he was dismissive of her work and demeaning of her opinions on things. I think Henley had streak of that in him too but I think he didn't dump on her songs/career the way others did. I wouldn't at all say it was abusive but just the idea that Jimmy would shove her in the basement (*figuratively) when she was at that time definitely a BIG star has total shades of male privilege and disrespect. I think Paul Fishkin was lovely to her and a good guy and one of the ones she let get away. Perhaps Hernan too. (though was he the one who dumped his fiancť for Stevie? Not so nice... Might have been someone else who did that). So maybe a bigger issue is for Stevie to have figured out why she lacked the self confidence to assert herself with men in her life, and whether she did so in many cases because she felt that's what she needed to do to move up in her career (also a very #metoo consideration as the system has been rigged that way for a very long time).

Lindsey doesn't suffer fools well-- female OR male. There are plenty of guys who have gotten chewed out by him ; he's a perfectionist who was hard on himself and everyone around him. Clearly he became aware of this a long time ago and addressed it. I mean it's like in a 12 step program-- you recognize whom you've hurt along the way and you apologize to them and make amends. Well it sure feels like LB has tried to do this over and over again to SN......and that seems appropriate....but I don't think anyone has to apologize for having high professional standards and pushing for perfection...and that feels like where they still have a major disconnect because Stevie has been in a position of only hearing compliments for a long time from those around her.
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  #139  
Old 12-17-2020, 07:29 PM
anusha anusha is offline
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I agree -- I don't agree with the justifications that I'm describing, but I think that it was part of the whole picture inside Stevie's head. But that is in no way an endorsement of it. Like I said, they wanted an excuse to do what they wanted and not appear to be the bad guys. I think this played into the mindset, but it's just a theory.

I suspect Stevie was fairly assertive especially at the height of her post-Rumours fame. A lot of the guys she was with seem like jerks, but she didn't seem cowed by any of them. That doesn't mean that she didn't have to put up with a lot of sexist BS.

I personally haven't liked any of SN's solo albums since TOSOTM. There have been bits and pieces that have been good, but overall, I find her lyrics generally have crossed the line from self-mythology to straight on narcissism, and I don't like the musical arrangements. I do think Lindsey is really the only one who is producing music that is vital and interesting (and I say this as someone who was lukewarm on his SYW songs overall).

As much as I am trying to get inside the mindset, the firing was really the last straw. There's been so much moneygrabbing by FM/Mick over recent years with all the reissues and greatest hits tours, and I was along for ride until now.

The thing I find galling about the firing, as a fan, is this -- FM, and especially SN, were willing to milk fan/press interest in her and Lindsey for 20 years after The Dance. Even though it's pretty clear it's been a contentious and fairly toxic relationship the entire time. Stevie was willing to play up the fake romance when she could profit from it, but then she can't be civil and stands on "principle" about not waiting for his solo tour when FM has waited for her solo projects before starting theirs? I think the entire band went along with firing Lindsey because they knew it wouldn't affect them financially. And to me, that cheapens anything we saw from them after maybe the nights when they filmed The Dance.
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  #140  
Old 12-17-2020, 08:27 PM
UnwindedDreams UnwindedDreams is offline
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Originally Posted by anusha View Post
Stevie was willing to play up the fake romance when she could profit from it, but then she can't be civil and stands on "principle" about not waiting for his solo tour when FM has waited for her solo projects before starting theirs
When Stevie's ready, that's when Mick's ready. Meanwhile Stevie's 2012 IYD Tour was playing sheds with tons of empty seats.

2018 was a rush to do another run through the past tour. The bones of the 2018 set is what they did with Lindsey. They copied Lindsey's Chain, Chris song, and Dreams opening trio that he sequenced for OWTS and MusiCares. Acoustic set in the middle with just Stevie and Neil (that started on Unleashed) And Gold Dust Woman into Go Your Own Way to close the main set and then encore with Don't Stop.

They used him then lose him.
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  #141  
Old 12-17-2020, 10:21 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is online now
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Originally Posted by anusha View Post
The thing I find galling about the firing, as a fan, is this -- FM, and especially SN, were willing to milk fan/press interest in her and Lindsey for 20 years after The Dance. Even though it's pretty clear it's been a contentious and fairly toxic relationship the entire time. Stevie was willing to play up the fake romance when she could profit from it, but then she can't be civil and stands on "principle" about not waiting for his solo tour when FM has waited for her solo projects before starting theirs? I think the entire band went along with firing Lindsey because they knew it wouldn't affect them financially. And to me, that cheapens anything we saw from them after maybe the nights when they filmed The Dance.
This
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  #142  
Old 12-18-2020, 12:15 AM
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elle elle is offline
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but part of me wondered if they would pull out the big gun of the abuse allegations when he sued.
see to me the fact that he sued them knowing full well they can take it to court and air all the FM dirty laundry (wouldn't public eat that up??) was a sign he knew there's no there there. they had nothing on him.

if they did, that was the perfect time to air that out, in the height of #metoo. rabid SN stans kept repeating and insinuating SN was an abused woman trying to justify the firing - but all they had was a whisper campaign. if SN had something, why not come out right then - and again, if that was the case would he be stupid enough to risk it with the lawsuit?

also, if you remember the way they originally planned it was to say that he left. he just refused to go along with that, went to the press and made it clear he was fired for petty reasons. for months FM statements were all over the place because their prepared statements were that he left and they didn't have good reasoning and story to go with the firing.

one last thing - McVies were never onboard with firing. they just were too spineless to try to prevent it. it was never "the whole band wanted to fire LB" - it was always Stevie and probably Azoff, with Mick going along with it for money.
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  #143  
Old 12-18-2020, 12:39 AM
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see to me the fact that he sued them knowing full well they can take it to court and air all the FM dirty laundry (wouldn't public eat that up??) was a sign he knew there's no there there. they had nothing on him.

if they did, that was the perfect time to air that out, in the height of #metoo. rabid SN stans kept repeating and insinuating SN was an abused woman trying to justify the firing - but all they had was a whisper campaign. if SN had something, why not come out right then - and again, if that was the case would he be stupid enough to risk it with the lawsuit?

also, if you remember the way they originally planned it was to say that he left. he just refused to go along with that, went to the press and made it clear he was fired for petty reasons. for months FM statements were all over the place because their prepared statements were that he left and they didn't have good reasoning and story to go with the firing.

one last thing - McVies were never onboard with firing. they just were too spineless to try to prevent it. it was never "the whole band wanted to fire LB" - it was always Stevie and probably Azoff, with Mick going along with it for money.
The McVie's are spineless. I mean, I know they're all 100 now, but jesus, step up to the plate!

They might not have been huge without $tevie, but THEY ALSO WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN HUGE WITHOUT LINDSEY.
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  #144  
Old 12-18-2020, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams View Post
2018 was a rush to do another run through the past tour. The bones of the 2018 set is what they did with Lindsey. They copied Lindsey's Chain, Chris song, and Dreams opening trio that he sequenced for OWTS and MusiCares. Acoustic set in the middle with just Stevie and Neil (that started on Unleashed) And Gold Dust Woman into Go Your Own Way to close the main set and then encore with Don't Stop.

They used him then lose him.
On the 1987 tour, they did SYLM, The Chain, and Dreams to open, HAEWAFY as the ďacousticĒ number midway through the set, and Donít Stop was in the encore. In 1990, it was In The Back of My Mind, The Chain, and Dreams to open, Landslide in the middle of the set, and Donít Stop in the encore. But, sure, everything that ever happened with a Fleetwood Mac setlist ever was all Lindsey. Even when he wasnít in the band.

Christine has had ďDonít StopĒ in the encore set ever since her 1984 tour, which he was also not involved with.
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  #145  
Old 12-18-2020, 12:58 AM
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Lindsey’s firing had nothing to do with abuse or MeToo.

Stevie didn’t need Lindsey or Fleetwood Mac after 1981, yet Stevie continued to work with Lindsey for over 35 years afterwards. That’s simply not consistent with abuse. Not saying he didn’t with other women or that he didn’t work on his demons, but I genuinely do not believe he was abusive towards Stevie. Just compare Stevie and Lindsey to Ike and Tina Turner, where there was actual abuse. Tina got out and never looked back.
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  #146  
Old 12-18-2020, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by HomerMcvie View Post
The McVie's are spineless. I mean, I know they're all 100 now, but jesus, step up to the plate!

They might not have been huge without $tevie, but THEY ALSO WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN HUGE WITHOUT LINDSEY.
John McVie, more than any of them, is responsible for their success. On December 31, 1974, Fleetwood Mac was on a major label coming off a Top 40 album. They got signed to that label in 1969 because Fleetwood Mac was one of the top bands in Europe. Fleetwood Mac was one of the top bands in Europe because Peter Green was one of the top blues guitarists in England. Peter became that in the Bluesbreakers, after Eric Clapton had become a guitar god with them and basically invited the Gibson Les Paul through a Marshall amp sound. Prior to that, Clapton was a hot shot guitarist from the Yardbirds, though not yet a god. Clapton joined the Bluesbreakers because they were the blues band with the most potential in England. John McVie was the bassist when this happened. Without John McVie playing for Mayall, there wouldn’t be a Fleetwood Mac on a label for Stevie and Lindsey to join and none of what eventually happened would have been possible. He is literally the foundation of Fleetwood Mac.

John McVie was the bassist of record for the debut/breakout recordings for John Mayall, Eric Clapton, Peter Green, Aynsley Dunbar, Mick Taylor, Mick Fleetwood, Jeremy Spencer, Danny Kirwan, Stevie Nicks, and Lindsey Buckingham. That’s ten artists inducted into the Hall of Fame, two multiple times. Coincidence?

Spineless? No. He just wanted to go on tour and was probably tired of the BS. What gets him the biggest paycheck? Considering all of the vitally important albums he was on, which tour is better for his legacy? The one that’s full of new songs played in theaters built around the eccentricities of one that will probably be discarded by the next tour or the one representative of the entire career that’s played to arenas?
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Last edited by SteveMacD; 12-18-2020 at 01:51 AM..
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  #147  
Old 12-18-2020, 02:38 AM
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John McVie, more than any of them, is responsible for their success. On December 31, 1974, Fleetwood Mac was on a major label coming off a Top 40 album. They got signed to that label in 1969 because Fleetwood Mac was one of the top bands in Europe. Fleetwood Mac was one of the top bands in Europe because Peter Green was one of the top blues guitarists in England. Peter became that in the Bluesbreakers, after Eric Clapton had become a guitar god with them and basically invited the Gibson Les Paul through a Marshall amp sound. Prior to that, Clapton was a hot shot guitarist from the Yardbirds, though not yet a god. Clapton joined the Bluesbreakers because they were the blues band with the most potential in England. John McVie was the bassist when this happened. Without John McVie playing for Mayall, there wouldn’t be a Fleetwood Mac on a label for Stevie and Lindsey to join and none of what eventually happened would have been possible. He is literally the foundation of Fleetwood Mac.

John McVie was the bassist of record for the debut/breakout recordings for John Mayall, Eric Clapton, Peter Green, Aynsley Dunbar, Mick Taylor, Mick Fleetwood, Jeremy Spencer, Danny Kirwan, Stevie Nicks, and Lindsey Buckingham. That’s ten artists inducted into the Hall of Fame, two multiple times. Coincidence?

Spineless? No. He just wanted to go on tour and was probably tired of the BS. What gets him the biggest paycheck? Considering all of the vitally important albums he was on, which tour is better for his legacy? The one that’s full of new songs played in theaters built around the eccentricities of one that will probably be discarded by the next tour or the one representative of the entire career that’s played to arenas?
Do you know what's good for your legacy as a HUMAN BEING? Being LOYAL to people you've worked with for 43 years. Having a spine, and standing up for what's right. WHY TF does John need with a bigger paycheck????? He's survived cancer, and lort only knows how many years he has left. DOING THE RIGHT THING. THAT'S what matters at this stage in life, or should.

And the Peter Green years have NOTHING to do with where they were in 1974. They were going NOWHERE. A minor hit, and milking it by earning minimal money. Big f*cking deal. They all had a debt....an eternal debt to Lindsey, and they welched(no pun intended) on a debt owed.
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Last edited by HomerMcvie; 12-18-2020 at 03:04 AM..
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  #148  
Old 12-18-2020, 06:48 AM
UnwindedDreams UnwindedDreams is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD View Post
John McVie, more than any of them, is responsible for their success. On December 31, 1974, Fleetwood Mac was on a major label coming off a Top 40 album. They got signed to that label in 1969 because Fleetwood Mac was one of the top bands in Europe. Fleetwood Mac was one of the top bands in Europe because Peter Green was one of the top blues guitarists in England. Peter became that in the Bluesbreakers, after Eric Clapton had become a guitar god with them and basically invited the Gibson Les Paul through a Marshall amp sound. Prior to that, Clapton was a hot shot guitarist from the Yardbirds, though not yet a god. Clapton joined the Bluesbreakers because they were the blues band with the most potential in England. John McVie was the bassist when this happened. Without John McVie playing for Mayall, there wouldnít be a Fleetwood Mac on a label for Stevie and Lindsey to join and none of what eventually happened would have been possible. He is literally the foundation of Fleetwood Mac.

The one thatís full of new songs played in theaters built around the eccentricities of one that will probably be discarded by the next tour or the one representative of the entire career thatís played to arenas?
The one that played Crowded House, Split Enz, and Tom Petty?
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  #149  
Old 12-18-2020, 06:58 AM
UnwindedDreams UnwindedDreams is offline
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On the 1987 tour, they did SYLM, The Chain, and Dreams to open, HAEWAFY as the ďacousticĒ number midway through the set, and Donít Stop was in the encore. In 1990, it was In The Back of My Mind, The Chain, and Dreams to open, Landslide in the middle of the set, and Donít Stop in the encore. But, sure, everything that ever happened with a Fleetwood Mac setlist ever was all Lindsey. Even when he wasnít in the band.

Christine has had ďDonít StopĒ in the encore set ever since her 1984 tour, which he was also not involved with.
Unnecessary anger written in your post.
You're incorrect to bring up '87 because '87 came from 82 Did you know In the Back of My Mind isn't a Chris song?
Lindsey created the acoustic portion of the show. Big Love. Landslide. NGBA.
To deny that Lindsey didn't craft the Mac setlist template is to deny that every person has an orefice.
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  #150  
Old 12-18-2020, 09:14 AM
sue sue is offline
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Unnecessary anger written in your post.
You're incorrect to bring up '87 because '87 came from 82 Did you know In the Back of My Mind isn't a Chris song?
Lindsey created the acoustic portion of the show. Big Love. Landslide. NGBA.
To deny that Lindsey didn't craft the Mac setlist template is to deny that every person has an orefice.
I have plenty of orifice, but canít find one orefice.

I often donít quite understand all that Stevemacd goes on about.
But I donít hear any anger in his quote
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