When I See You Again Appreciation Post!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Cristian
I'm not posting here anymore because this is an appreciation thread, right? We bashers aren't welcome?

Given the fact that you winked, Christian, I get the feeling that you didn't really feel like you weren't welcome to post in the thread. At least I hope you didn't feel that way. Certainly everyone's always welcome to post their opinions regarding any topic in any thread, but since this was meant as an appreciation thread, it would have been nice if it had remained that way.
The song sure gets bashed enough everywhere else on this board, it wouldn't have hurt for there to have been one thread where people could just discuss what they like (or love) about it.

Ah well.

Originally posted by face of glass
Ok EricBliss. If your post was intended as a bait for a Lindseyhead, you’ve caught one.
I realize why some people have been offering a different perspective on Stevie’s contributions to TITN recently; they’re tired of the seemingly endless bashing of “WISYA� and “WTTR…S� that has been going on for quite a while. It has been suggested that the main blame should not be poured on Stevie anymore, that Lindsey should be its main target.

I'm not sure of Eric's motivations, but I know... and he'd be the first one to admit this... that he's not really a major fan of Stevie's work, so I don't think it was his intention to divert blame towards Lindsey, in order to defend Stevie. After all, Stevie definitely didn't escape his criticism here either!
Maybe he was just playing Devil's Advocate.

Originally posted by face of glass
I don’t believe that Stevie has ever been inactive in deciding of the content of her songs. Not even when recording Fleetwood Mac albums.

In the past, Stevie has said that she didn't have as much control over the outcome of her songs as she would have liked to have had, within Fleetwood Mac. I think she used the term "hi-jacked" once, in describing how she sometimes felt her songs were no longer in her hands.
But that really was "back in the day," when I think she had fears that Lindsey might try to sabotage her songs out of anger or spite.

These days she has said that she implicitly trusts Lindsey to not do something to one of her songs that she would absolutely hate. And she has said that if there happens to be something she doesn't like, she knows she can go to him about it, and that they'll work together to make it so that they're both happy with it.

(The rest of this isn't directed at Gaius. Just some of my thoughts....)

In my opinion (as if people don't already know I feel this way), there isn't any "blame" to be placed regarding the outcome of "When I See You Again," because I think the track is aces just the way it is.
It's not for everyone, and it never will be (even though I still feel that the song can touch the listener, if they let it)... but I think it's simply perfect.

In my opinion, the song conveys what the artist (both Stevie as the songwriter, and Fleetwood Mac as a whole) wanted it to, and that's why it's on the album.
They had other tracks to choose from... "Juliet," "Joan Of Arc," and "What Has Rock And Roll Done For You," for example... but they went with this one. I assume this means they liked the song and the texture it provides alongside the other tracks. Forgive me if that sounds naive, or like some "tired excuse."

No film, painting, book, poem, or song is ever going to appeal to every single person out there... but I imagine every artist's hope is that their work will elicit some kind of emotion in people, good or bad.
When a work of art is met with indifference, that's when the artist should really worry.

Love it or hate, no one can deny that we sure do talk about "When I See You Again" more than any one Fleetwood Mac song you can name!

[Vianna]

I love this song-it's one of my favorites, especially the ending-it's just haunting..

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Interesting. I don't completely understand, but do you mean that it is like different voices blending together to form one?

Yes. Here is a better explanation.

http://wv.essortment.com/musicandtheory_rkxl.htm

[face of glass]

Originally posted by trackaghost
The more people that love you, the more people that hate you too I guess. It's the curse of popularity

Yep. After all, one can’t possibly like the most popular ones because they only appeal to the braindead masses. #1 rule of The Rolling Stone school of rock criticism.

Originally posted by trackaghost
Keeping this is mind, I still can't help feeling peeved with this ongoing argument that Stevie owes everything to Lindsey and his magic touch, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc.

Ah yes. I remember what you wrote on the subject earlier in another thread:

Originally posted by trackaghost
I also feel uncomfortable with all this, because it seems like a symptom of the general reluctance of people to give women in the music industry credit for their own work. I've seen it with so many of my favourite artists. Female singer/songwriters and musicians always get overlooked as credible artists. It's a shame because I do think Stevie and others like her, have fought hard to be thought of as serious songwriters.

If this is a feminist statement of sorts then I do sympathize with the view. However, it all depends on what you listen to in music. So you’re pleased with several Stevie demos, including those that are barebones and have her voice with the usual Nicksian chords? Fine. It’s not like I feel totally unmoved by those. But I’m personally not satisfied with that approach. If I was handed out an album full of that stuff I couldn’t bare listening to them straight through. I always pay attention to the way the overall track sounds the most and that’s why I’m bound to give more credit to Lindsey than to Stevie. It’s he who puts the diversity in and that’s one of the main attractions to me in music. He doesn’t, however, put in the Nicksian personality; that’s what Stevie does. I believe that without Stevie’s voice and lyrics Lindsey wouldn’t be able to create such a magnificent arrangement. There has to be something to be built on anyway. I will never give Lindsey the full credit on any success a particular Nickssong might have. It’s 50/50 and it will always be so for me.

Sharon, shouldn’t you be doing something else anyway? Like reading my PM, for instance.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I'm not sure of Eric's motivations, but I know... and he'd be the first one to admit this... that he's not really a major fan of Stevie's work, so I don't think it was his intention to divert blame towards Lindsey, in order to defend Stevie. After all, Stevie definitely didn't escape his criticism here either!

I’m not going to guess his motivations either. Of course, if you look at the “Favourite FM song� thread, there are two Nicks songs in his list and nothing by Buckingham. Not to mention that he’s clearly criticized Lindsey in some aspects before. But never mind. I apologize Eric if what I’m writing seems rude. I definitely thought this was rude too:

Originally posted by EricBliss12345
In my opinion, he let her make a complete ass out of herself on that one because he just didn't give a ****.

If that was supposed to be humorous, I’m not laughing. I know the reputation of the 1987 Buckingham isn’t the best possible among the FM fan community, but I still think that if that quote is a serious statement then it just can’t go unanswered. If it was intended to generate some fuss, it sure did succeed. Thanks to my Finnish stubbornness.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
In the past, Stevie has said that she didn't have as much control over the outcome of her songs as she would have liked to have had, within Fleetwood Mac. I think she used the term "hi-jacked" once, in describing how she sometimes felt her songs were no longer in her hands.

Yes, that’s probably what the dedication on the inner sleeve of Bella Donna, “to Jimmy… for giving me back my music�, was referring to. I’m not going to comment on particular songs where this “hi-jacking� might have happened. I just think it didn’t happen with “When I See You Again� at all. The demo hasn’t been changed in any significant way. The song is therefore an anomaly on a Fleetwood Mac album. It gains something because of this fact; that they had guts to give us something so stripped down at a time when FM were known of their studio polish. Give me another one of this type with the same old Nickschords and it’s on the same level as Stevie’s recent stripped-down demos for me.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
They had other tracks to choose from... "What Has Rock And Roll Done For You,"

In which case I’m not surprised they picked “WISYA�.

But I’m sorry if I did violate the “rules of the thread� and started to write some negative things into it.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by trackaghost
The more people that love you, the more people that hate you too I guess. It's the curse of popularity

Cue the Pretenders...

...it's a thin linnnnnne, between love & hate

Originally posted by dissention
With a voice like that, Billie Holiday is the only person Macy *could* sing harmony with, and even then, it's kinda iffy.

Kind of like Bob Dylan...not a better person to harmonize with him than Tom Petty, eh?


My two-cents:

I don't necessarily LIKE "WISYA", but I don't DISLIKE it, either. Just don't ask me what I think of "WTTR...S", you won't like my answer. And, in saying that; then, DEFINITELY avoid asking me about "The Second Time" from Behind The Mask

[CarneVaca]

The one redeeming aspect of WISYA: The nylon-string solo at the end. The song itself is mediocre at best.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by face of glass
I always pay attention to the way the overall track sounds the most and that’s why I’m bound to give more credit to Lindsey than to Stevie. It’s he who puts the diversity in and that’s one of the main attractions to me in music.

The only "argument" I have with that statement, is that... out of about 113 Nicks-penned songs that have been officially released with Fleetwood Mac, on a solo album, or on a soundtrack or b-side, Lindsey only has production credit on 21 of those (10 of those being the 'SYW' tracks, and not counting "Seven Wonders," which Stevie only added some lyrics to). Of course, we should probably credit him for at least arranging the 'Buckingham Nicks' tracks, as well as "Rhiannon" and "Landslide," and I'm sure he had more than just a little input on the 'Rumours' tracks (despite the lack of a production credit)... but Lindsey is definitely not the "only one who knows what to do with Stevie's songs," as is often implied.

Which has always been why I feel it's important that Lindsey's credit for the appeal of Stevie's songs, doesn't get too out of proportion with the actual amount of songs he's had a hand in producing.
Keith Olsen, Richard Dashut, Ken Caillat, Jimmy Iovine (my favorite of anyone who's produced Stevie's music), Rick Nowels, Mike Campbell, John Shanks, and others, have definitely added wonderful touches to many of Stevie's songs over the years... though I'm most definitely not belittling Lindsey's contributions.

But in my opinion... regarding Stevie, or any songwriter... I'm always going to give 70/30 credit, with the songwriter first, and the producer second, as the producer is only really embellishing what's already there (in my opinion).

Originally posted by face of glass
I’m not going to guess (Eric's) motivations either. Of course, if you look at the “Favourite FM song� thread, there are two Nicks songs in his list and nothing by Buckingham.

I hadn't noticed his post in that thread. I'd definitely be interested in reading which songs of Stevie's he picked, as I know when he and I have chatted, Christine and Bob Welch are his favorites, by far, and I've gotten the feeling that he has only a moderate interest in Stevie or Lindsey (not that there's anything wrong with that).


At any rate, I'm still chuckling over the fact that, nearly 17 years after its release, we're still having multi-page debates about "When I See You Again."

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
but Lindsey is definitely not the "only one who knows what to do with Stevie's songs," as is often implied.

But in my opinion... regarding Stevie, or any songwriter... I'm always going to give 70/30 credit, with the songwriter first, and the producer second, as the producer is only really embellishing what's already there (in my opinion).

I agree, and IMO some folks rely too much on that Christine quote about Lindsey fixing Dreams.

- Jake

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
I agree, and IMO some folks rely too much on that Christine quote about Lindsey fixing Dreams.

- Jake

You mean more than certain folks have accepted as gospel Stevie's contention that she sneaked to the mixing board to lower her vocal and leave Lindsey's at the end of WISYA? Frankly, I don't see how anyone could believe that tall tale, considering the process of mixing and mastering a recording. Yes, I believe she may have been the one who talked Lindsey into doing that particular vocal, but methinks the lady doth exaggerate.

By the way, I listened to the song yesterday, and I concluded that it is actually among the best of Stevie's mediocre songs from that 1985-1994 period. Had she taken more care with the lyrics, it would have been a decent song.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You mean more than certain folks have accepted as gospel Stevie's contention that she sneaked to the mixing board to lower her vocal and leave Lindsey's at the end of WISYA? Frankly, I don't see how anyone could believe that tall tale, considering the process of mixing and mastering a recording. Yes, I believe she may have been the one who talked Lindsey into doing that particular vocal, but methinks the lady doth exaggerate.

By the way, I listened to the song yesterday, and I concluded that it is actually among the best of Stevie's mediocre songs from that 1985-1994 period. Had she taken more care with the lyrics, it would have been a decent song.

That, my friend, is a high compliment coming from you

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You mean more than certain folks have accepted as gospel Stevie's contention that she sneaked to the mixing board to lower her vocal and leave Lindsey's at the end of WISYA? Frankly, I don't see how anyone could believe that tall tale, considering the process of mixing and mastering a recording. Yes, I believe she may have been the one who talked Lindsey into doing that particular vocal, but methinks the lady doth exaggerate.

Well, we all know how her stories change along with her underwear.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Well, we all know how her stories change along with her underwear.

Sadly - not with that black dress!!

Seriously, I took Stevie's story to mean, that she removed her vocals and then they completed the record once they saw how it sounded. I did not take it to mean that she snuck in at the end of the mixing process and removed them without telling anyone and then sent the record to the final mass production stage.

[Johnny Stew]

The exact quote, from Creem magazine, September 1987....

How do you like my slow song with Lindsey singing at the end ("When I See You Again")? That's one of my favorite things... I made him sing with me; I said, "Lindsey, you're gonna sing on all my songs whether you like it or not -- you have to sing this with me." So we went out and sang "If I see you again, will it be over?" -- we sang it in unison, then I snuck in and took my voice off. Otherwise, I'd have never gotten him to do it -- see, Lindsey's pretty shy and he's singing differently there than he is on anything else on the record. He wouldn't think to do that: to sing on my song at the end. He would think to sing with me, but he wouldn't want to end it. But that's what I wanted, to leave people feeling they are really talking to each other.

I have no doubt that she probably did wipe her vocal from the mix (there's an alternate mix floating around out there that definitely has Stevie and Lindsey both singing the coda), but certainly Lindsey knew about it not long afterwards, and certainly he knew about it before the final mixes were approved and sent to be pressed.

Stevie never said that it was some kind of surprise to him when the album was released, just that he wouldn't have thought to record it that way in the first place.

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
The exact quote, from Creem magazine, September 1987....



I have no doubt that she probably did wipe her vocal from the mix (there's an alternate mix floating around out there that definitely has Stevie and Lindsey both singing the coda), but certainly Lindsey knew about it not long afterwards, and certainly he knew about it before the final mixes were approved and sent to be pressed.

Stevie never said that it was some kind of surprise to him when the album was released, just that he wouldn't have thought to record it that way in the first place.

Yeah, and don't forget, Stevie creeped into the studio late one night to remove her love grunts from Big Love. Lindsey would have never thought to be grunting alone. (kidding, especially if Mrs. Buckingham is reading this)

- Jake

[Jen77]

I would just like to say that I love this song too! Just the whole Stevie singing "When I see you again...." and Lindsey at the end singing "If I see you again..." Its just heartbreaking!

Jen~*