When I See You Again Appreciation Post!

[Bella Figura]

and this is one New Yorker that totally relates to this song...

and just to bust chops, Carne, everyone knows that any native New Yorker never relates to any music by that New Jerseyite, Bruce Springstein!!!

I think Stevie's subtleness in this song means more to me than any of the other more blatant songs I've heard. There was a time when Stevie was criticized for being too lyrically vague and artsy, and unable to be real by drawing upon her personal experiences when writing her lyrics and now she is criticized as self-indulgent for doing the opposite...

"This coastline is glittering
Like a diamond snake
In a black sky" and I actually used this quote last weekend when we took our close friends who live in Italy into Manhattan for Chinese. It is the wife's first time visiting the US (she's french) and she was amazed by the twinkling lights of the city as we crossed over the Hudson...

[CarneVaca]

Sorry, Bella, but I just don't see what the subtlety is in words like "trauma" and "Just remember I was so scared." That is a big part of my problem with the song: If there was trauma, you needn't use the word, and the same goes for "scared." Show me you're afraid, show me there was trauma, but don't bother telling me. To use a poor analogy, it's like explaining the punchline to a joke.

[Bella Figura]

no problem, you are completely entitled to your opinion of this song and of the many other Stevie tunes which you do not like. It does not speak to you whereas the stuff Bruce recorded, did speak to you. and that's alright...

That's why, thank goodness, we have many many different types artists and art in the world to help us interpret, escape from and/or deal with the reality and fantasy of our lives.

Stevie poetry/lyrics and her stripped down music on the many demos has always spoken to me. from her corniest hokey lyrics of Jane and Ghosts to the lyrical perfection of Sara and Landslide...from her halting piano of her Rhiannons to her acoustic guitar on Twisted. please don't get me wrong, I like the produced and finished products as well but I also enjoy Stevie's musical talents as limited as they may be.

and Illume did touch and please me as well. And as a long time fan,. Stevie had a big order from me to live up my expectations prior to my first hearing of Illume.

and it is so odd, but at that dinner I referred to in my previous post, my hubby actually found out from our Italian friends that a girl he had casually dated in college died in the towers..."just remember when I'm haunted"

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I never expected it to be a song that would be anything more than for the people that were in New York City that day. Because I can't write about how everybody else felt--I can only write about how I felt and how I feel New Yorkers felt that day, that morning. So I'm very, very proud of that song. I wanted to say something for those people. That would be forever.

But that's just it. The song doesn't speak to or for me, as one of the New Yorkers being evacuated and scurrying about in major confusion and fear trying to get the hell out of Manhattan. So I can't relate to Nag Champa or Point Dune in this context nor do I need to be told "I was so scared," for I can figure that out. I've said this before: Had she written about what she actually "saw," and less about her later reflections on the event, it might have been more interesting.

Ultimately Stevie is a rich, pampered rock star. Does she really need to interject herself into a song about the suffering of so many average people? She was sitting in a comfortable hotel while people were running for their lives. Is it not self-indulgent to wallow on your own experience? I can remember that day hearing people complain about the trains being out of service for a few hours because they wanted to get out. At some point, I felt compelled to say, "Look, we're going to get out. We're the lucky ones. And if we have to wait till tomorrow, we're still the lucky ones." Hearing some of the lyrics in the song produces a similar reaction in me. And I do believe Stevie had the right intentions, but the execution was all wong.

AMEN!!!

I would also like to add that if it was a song that she believed it could only be "anything" for her and the people of New York, she should never have recorded the song.

I completely agree with everything you said, doll.

[Bella Figura]

the common saying goes "if it touches one person, then it's worth it" especially if it's what you do for a living...

also an existential (sorry for the bad spelling") quote applies here as well "if it's my foxhole then it is the center of the universe"

[shackin'up]

As a European and a non-native speaker the lyrics of illume don't have immediate impact -positive nor negative. It is just the feel that communicates immediately for me. With that in mind....

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Sorry, Bella, but I just don't see what the subtlety is in words like "trauma" and "Just remember I was so scared." That is a big part of my problem with the song: If there was trauma, you needn't use the word, and the same goes for "scared." Show me you're afraid, show me there was trauma, but don't bother telling me. To use a poor analogy, it's like explaining the punchline to a joke.

agreed,

then... what about "i'm so afraid, slip and i fall and i die"?

I'll have to see, but I really think lindsey is doing that a lot, too. For me, it is not a problem when you are telling a story, but it is when you write a poem. maybe that's the case here. (I'm just thinking out loud.)

But for me, illume' s intensity is in how she sings it, not in the lyric. when I heard the centermix I thought... oh buckingham, you should have left it there; Bass, drums, the pure vocal and maybe some backingvocals and that's it. It goes to your throat immediately. and the direct soul of that mix and raw vocal is something the song needed. So I think the arrangement gave something extra distential (english expression?) to the song. Not only by the (lack of) strength of the lyric.


gerald

[strandinthewind]

I guess I do not see those example as example of self-indulgence because when I think of that term, I think of someone behaing badly, etc. I do not think La Nicks or LB do that. Perhaps self-absorbed, which, although I like it alot, "Ghosts" is too me because she is beginning the 10 or more years of whining in songs about her life and no husband? In any event, I think Illume was not either of those terms per se.

[face of glass]

The usual apologies to everyone. Once again I haven’t been reading the board for several days. Let’s hope this is the final inclusion of the sort into the thread.
I believe it’s this sentence that has seemingly bothered some of you:

Originally posted by face of glass
On that particular day in September 2001 he must have thought along the lines of “I told you so”, like a significant amount of European newspapers did.

I agree I went way too far there. The thing Nancy spoke about later happened there; I was “projecting my own views of 9-11 onto Lindsey.” And I was way too blunt also. The only things I know of LB’s political orientation are the few I’ve read from the BuckinghamNicks.net message board and even those must have become distorted in my head. So I’m sorry for writing that. That’s the reason why I have that particular signature these days; I need to keep my head straight amidst all my speculation. This time I didn’t succeed in it. I stand behind everything else though.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
The man has said these songs are some of her best stuff yet (an assessment with which I disagree) so let's take him at his word, at least on this.

A) Lindsey may think so but would it necessarily prevent him from inserting shades of other emotions into them? Would he treat them as “sacred” and leave them untouched? Listening to the demos of “Thrown Down” and “Not Make Believe”; I think he wouldn’t.
B) Show me an artist who doesn’t tell the media that “our latest work is the best work we’ve ever done”.

Originally posted by Bella Figura
but it is not right to mock even one death...no matter what your politically motivation but it is right to be shocked, dismayed and to feel the heartache.

I never said he was trying to mock the event itself (or any particular death); he was just providing us with an alternative reaction to Stevie’s lyric. Stevie didn’t write the all-encompassing take on 9-11 (and I’m sure no one is capable of that), she wrote her own interpretation of it. If you think “Illume” is beyond criticism as the most adequate take on the whole tragedy, then you and I aren’t on the same wavelength. And I still find the song moving, I share very little of CarneVaca’s criticism on Stevie’s lyrics.

Originally posted by Bella Figura
btw, just curious, what's the death toll from terrorist attacks in Finland???

Seven, indirectly. Some guy went into a supermarket exactly thirteen months after the whole 9-11 thing (at least, the media doubling in September 2002 was probably a partial influence) and blew himself up along with innocent people. Of course nothing like that is big news in there; here it shocked many. Let me just tell you, however, that no one here (except for the most obstinate communists) had the “I told you so” reaction immediately after the whole 9-11; those started surfacing about a week after the crashes.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Non sequitur: Speaking of death, war and Fins. I recently saw the movie Cuckoo, which is Finnish. Brilliant. Check it out.

I know it probably seems like the two countries are inseparable from the good ol’ USA, but that’s a Russian movie you mentioned, even though one of the main characters is a Finnish sniper played by a Finn.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
”Illumé”

Just an aside: I’ve seen you type the title that way a few times before. Are you hinting at the way Stevie pronounces the word during the song?

Originally posted by sodascouts
I said this on the BuckinghamNicks.net board in response to Gaius' post - using the voices to mock Stevie as well as anyone feeling extreme grief for the victims of 911 would be appalling and, from the above quote, he feels that grief as well. I can't imagine where ANYONE would get the idea he thinks that the sentiment is one to be mocked - unless he/she were projecting his/her own ideas about 911 onto Lindsey.

You’re right in that I can’t prove he wanted to mock Stevie’s lyrics deliberately. That’s the impression I got, however, and it was weird at first to hear such a choice in a song like that. Even you, as you said on your board, got that impression at first but obviously you didn’t want to cling to it. It’s impossible to say objectively whether there’s a sarcastic tone used or not as the interpretations would vary depending on the listener. For me it is one though.

I was thinking of that LB quote too when I wrote my thoughts on “Illume” into this thread. I have no reason to doubt that he felt very shocked that day. If he didn’t, then he’d obviously be one of these intellectuals who oppose to these things only because they want to be “different”. I also believe he fully shares (or shared) Stevie’s grief. However, that does not prevent him from taking an alternative view.

For the record: I agree with Dissention’s take on “Illume” completely, especially “of it's constraint of being about only one persons feelings”. That’s a flaw in Stevie’s writing occasionally; for the uninitiated it can come off as pieces of a personal world that might seem far too esoteric at first. Her producers capable of wrapping these pieces up into something that the casual listeners can also find appealing, they’re capable of colouring Stevie’s images into something more attractive. Especially Lindsey. He’s not afraid of bringing in these “alternate views”, through his own voice or his production.

So, is he mocking Stevie then, like many kids in the schoolyard used to mock something someone was saying with a funny voice? Nah, not that blatantly. If he shares Stevie’s grief, it’s not necessarily Stevie and her emotions that he’s mocking, he could be poking at himself for his own reaction. If Stevie wrote “Illume” directly after the events and didn’t do any editing on it, then it is natural that she wouldn’t be capable of taking on a point of view other than her own. However, it was different when LB received the song way after the tragedy and obviously worked on it for a long period of time. He could already take some distance to it, he could ruminate on the topic instead of being completely crushed by emotions. In short, he wanted to reflect on other possible interpretations of the tragedy, not just the Nicksian grief. For “Illume” is a very one-sided song; Stevie has only inserted grief in there (which she subtly varies, though). But since Lindsey has started to act as a sonic painter of sorts; someone who doesn’t just spurt a single emotion on the canvas but uses several intersecting ones at the same time, then it’s understandable for him to put something like that in “Illume” too. It is there in his own songs, along with this self-ridicule; “Come” is basically a parody of male aggression (which I’m sure is not unfamiliar to him) which he crosses with the verses that sound like the confessions of an obsessive lunatic, “Family Man” is LB laughing at his disability to write a good lyric (up to that point, at least) through the various voice manipulation while setting the tune to harmless ‘80s backing music. So, if he can do this with his own songs, why can’t he do it with Stevie’s too? For me saying that “Illume” is just a “simple” song about sadness/grief after LB’s treatment is the same as saying that “Say Goodbye” is just Lindsey waxing nostalgic after a love affair. There’s so much more other things that he adds into these songs.

The problem that people are having with my suggestion is probably that someone who mocks a serious song about a tragedy seems like a cruel person. That someone would have the guts to make an open joke about a tragedy. I don’t think there is that obvious a joke in the song; otherwise I wouldn’t be alone in my position. It is a subtle joke, not something that seems to underestimate the lyric. It’s just something that deflates the imagery a bit; it’s not the history of the world Stevie is talking about in there, it’s her own story.

Is the using of those voices humorous? For me it is partially; although it’s humour that’s born out of the unlikelihood of something like that happening in a song that’s supposed to be full of sadness. It doesn’t make me laugh directly or anything like that. It serves as a necessary reminder to the mourner; life isn’t all centred around you and there’s people who just won’t care for what you feel. You’re just a drop in an ocean. It’s an intellectual thing, of course, something that one can only come up with after the tragedy, but no less valid an expression than anything Stevie is doing.

I don’t know. I guess I’m just a bit bothered by the fact that there’s this common opinion in our society of grief and what it should be like. These days, after an event that shocks the nation, you’re just not supposed to be showing any other emotion besides pure mourning. Anything else, even a variant of that, and then you’re a freak. For me there’s always been so much other things involved in it; cynicism, anger, depression and yes, even sarcasm. That’s what Lindsey reflects on. We may watch all these funerals and tragedies from the TV every year but even then it’s usually because of voyeurism. You never see anyone showing true “negative” emotions in public and that’s obviously because most people wouldn’t bear to watch it. LB is not afraid of recognizing these things in people though.

I refuse to believe that Lindsey was “cheapening the message of the song” with those voices. He was just trying to give us a glimpse of something else. It’s easy to wrap oneself in mourning and stay in that state for a long time. These people usually dismiss humour as escapism. For me humour, the like of which is in “Illume” too, is not about pushing away one’s problems and fears. It an ability to look at yourself from a larger perspective; the fears won’t crush you then.

“Illume” may have been written as a direct response to what was happening all around Stevie but the fact that she apparently didn’t alter the message of the song when recording it with Fleetwood Mac proves that she didn’t want to express anything other than grief. Such a song, hell, even the original Stevie demo would have been an understandable release if it had been put out at the tail end of 2001. I have no reason to believe that Lindsey would have wanted to do something that would alter the atmosphere so significantly that quick. He shared her grief, as we admit. However, in time your perspectives are bound to change and you will start seeing other sides of the matter. Which is what happened to Lindsey too, and he wanted to communicate that through music and the lyrical repetition. And especially the tones he chose to use.

Originally posted by sodascouts
Instead, I think Lindsey was once again trying to be "cool" and "different" by manipulating the voices and it backfired.

And I don’t share this view with you either. It isn’t just a case of replicating “Madonna circa 1995”, it’s such an obvious a deviation from the overall atmosphere of the song that it has to represent something else. Whether it’s the fear and confusion of all those people on that day or just “mere sarcasm”, depends on the interpreter.

In the end, Nancy, I think you sometimes underestimate Lindsey’s sonic paintings; the different feelings they can evoke and the musical quotations he makes. I think those could be used as a basis for interesting song interpretations too, along with the lyrics. Of course that stuff might be more vague than whatever Stevie’s giving you to work with, but I’m sure that in many cases the results wouldn’t be that much more nebulous than what some of the reader comments at your site are.

Another necessary disclaimer: This is all just my humble opinion! But I guess most of you knew that already.

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by face of glass
For “Illume” is a very one-sided song; Stevie has only inserted grief in there (which she subtly varies, though). But since Lindsey has started to act as a sonic painter of sorts; someone who doesn’t just spurt a single emotion on the canvas but uses several intersecting ones at the same time, then it’s understandable for him to put something like that in “Illume” too. It is there in his own songs, along with this self-ridicule; “Come” is basically a parody of male aggression (which I’m sure is not unfamiliar to him) which he crosses with the verses that sound like the confessions of an obsessive lunatic, “Family Man” is LB laughing at his disability to write a good lyric (up to that point, at least) through the various voice manipulation while setting the tune to harmless ‘80s backing music. So, if he can do this with his own songs, why can’t he do it with Stevie’s too? For me saying that “Illume” is just a “simple” song about sadness/grief after LB’s treatment is the same as saying that “Say Goodbye” is just Lindsey waxing nostalgic after a love affair. There’s so much more other things that he adds into these songs.

Agreed on everything about the sonic painter and extra viewpoints added in somany steviesongs:

This one should have been left pure. He was touched (he perhaps even cried) when he heard that first stevie demo.

On this occasion I feel that he should have captured that emotion. Especially because it is in there!

Okay I repeat myself:
listen to the centermix and you know what I mean. That's F*ckin funky bleeding soul.


gerald

[face of glass]

Originally posted by shackin'up
listen to the centermix and you know what I mean. That's F*ckin funky bleeding soul.

I agree. I love that vocal to death. No intellectual pondering needed.

Also, he should have put John's bass way more upfront into the mix. Some "f*cking funky" stuff there.

I'd love to hear them jamming it on stage.

[Johnny Stew]

Very interesting interpretations, but I still don't feel that Lindsey was intending to be even mildly humorous with the "weird voice" modulation in the song.

He has a wry sense of humour, which he's not afraid to express in song (nor should he be), but that's never been the vibe I've gotten from his production on this particular track.

I think he was going for a sinister, unnatural sound... something dark and off-putting... to help bolster the heartbroken and fearful sentiment that Stevie was expressing in her lyrics.

I doubt it was ever his intention to have someone listen to that part and think it's meant to be silly... he'd probably even be kind of offended to hear that!
Anybody have the guts to ask Lindsey, "So hey, Lindsey, were you trying to be funny when you produced 'Illumé'?"

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Anybody have the guts to ask Lindsey, "So hey, Lindsey, were you trying to be funny when you produced 'Illumé'?"

When they come back to Atlanta, I will have cocktails again with him and ask him

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by face of glass
I know it probably seems like the two countries are inseparable from the good ol’ USA, but that’s a Russian movie you mentioned, even though one of the main characters is a Finnish sniper played by a Finn.

Forgive the faux pas. The setting is in Lapland, which is Finnish, and about half the movie is spoken in Finnish. Two other languages, German and Russian are spoken. But you are correct, it is Russian.

And no, Finland and Russia don't look the same to me, especially since I was born in Europe myself. Be that as it may, though I've never belonged to the anti-communist alarmist crowd, one has to admit that if not for the influence and might of the "good ol' USA," Finland might well have become another Soviet republic or satellite. And at that point, yes, it would have become quite indistinguishable to us.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Very interesting interpretations, but I still don't feel that Lindsey was intending to be even mildly humorous with the "weird voice" modulation in the song.

I... gulp... agree with this assessment. As much as I may disagree with you on the beauty, or lack thereof, of the lyrics, I just don't see Lindsey injecting any sort of sarcasm or humor into this song. And, really, it doesn't come across as humorous anyway.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Anybody have the guts to ask Lindsey, "So hey, Lindsey, were you trying to be funny when you produced 'Illumé'?"

Hey, if I shouted “spontaneity!” to him in Germany before the usual “WTWCT” speech then I have the guts to ask him just about anything.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
...if not for the influence and might of the "good ol' USA," Finland might well have become another Soviet republic or satellite.

And looking at the way our country is now because of this “influence”, I might as well prefer the big hug of Josef Vissarionovich. As we say around here: “Siberia could teach you a thing or two”.