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  #46  
Old 03-10-2012, 07:48 PM
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sharksfan2000 sharksfan2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by doodyhead View Post
Four hours of black magic woman jam at fillmore east in 1971
...if such a jam really did take place. It's become sort of legendary but I think there are real doubts about it happening...or at least about it being anywhere near four hours long

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Originally Posted by doodyhead View Post
the tapes of the munich commune jam.. allegedly in the hands of jane samuels in california
the tom dowd recordings of Peter Green and Duane Allman in Georgia
Johnny Winter playing the instrumental Lead guitar for the studio recording of "The Green Manalishi"

any others?
Could add the full "End of the Game" sessions to that list.
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  #47  
Old 03-10-2012, 07:52 PM
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John knows and respects mine on the situation.
Thank you Jeremy for making
this one of the more interesting
threads on the Ledge.
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  #48  
Old 03-10-2012, 09:03 PM
mzero mzero is offline
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Originally Posted by sharksfan2000 View Post
...if such a jam really did take place. It's become sort of legendary but I think there are real doubts about it happening...or at least about it being anywhere near four hours long


Could add the full "End of the Game" sessions to that list.
if we had a like button, all of dh and sf2k's + any live recordings post fm 1970 - 1973

z
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  #49  
Old 03-11-2012, 01:48 AM
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...if such a jam really did take place. It's become sort of legendary but I think there are real doubts about it happening...or at least about it being anywhere near four hours long.
You have to understand that these "accounts" were kept secret by FM until it was not going to embarrass the band that went pop, and made millions of dollars.

The Danny Kirwan/Peter Green Fleetwood Mac is the true band. Mick Fleetwood made sure that era didn't cross the Nicks/Buckingham era.

From what I've read, the 1971 four hour Fillmore East "Black Magic Woman" jam, is true. Another reason Mick Fleetwood didn't want that bit of trivia released, because Peter Green didn't lose his mind a year before in Munich.
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  #50  
Old 03-11-2012, 09:14 AM
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I find it interesting that Jeremy believes that Peters personality changed over a period of time and Mick/John seem to believe that it was almost right away...

His personality changing is one thing but I believe his playing was spot on right thru End Of The Game.

Since none of us fans were there all we can do is guess.

As Jeremy titles his reply is truly is "A matter of perspective"
As you sayand Slipkid and I and others agree his playing was at it's finest
His personality obviously did change over time ,but Jeremy, in the Peter Green doc ,when it was originally screened on BBC4 ,clearly stated that when they had gone to the party in Munich to retrieve Peter and Danny, that in the car on the way back, he turned and saw both Peter and Danny with one side of their face drooping and he (Jeremy )knew something was seriously wrong . the implication being that this is a stroke like symptom Now perhaps they both recovered completley from this, as people do often recover from strokes or perhaps it had a profound effect . but this is Jeremy's account and he was there and so he must have felt something happened that night. Interestingly when I saw another verson of the Peter Green doc this account by Jeremy had been omitted !
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  #51  
Old 03-11-2012, 10:56 AM
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You have to understand that these "accounts" were kept secret by FM until it was not going to embarrass the band that went pop, and made millions of dollars.

The Danny Kirwan/Peter Green Fleetwood Mac is the true band. Mick Fleetwood made sure that era didn't cross the Nicks/Buckingham era.

From what I've read, the 1971 four hour Fillmore East "Black Magic Woman" jam, is true. Another reason Mick Fleetwood didn't want that bit of trivia released, because Peter Green didn't lose his mind a year before in Munich.
Slipkid, I've read the accounts too. Still doesn't mean that they are true (conspiracy theory or not). The first account of it, as far as I can tell, appears in Bob Brunning's book - and all other accounts are clearly based on that one (including Martin Celmins' version). And the account in Brunning's book comes from Clifford Davis! So Brunning and Davis are now the authoritative sources for info on the band? And not as if Davis had any reason to build up another Peter Green myth... There are elements of Davis' story as written in Brunning's book that are extremely hard to believe, and in my view they cast doubt on the whole account.

I've never read an account by anyone else who claims to have been at that show who has repeated the four-hour "Black Magic Woman" jam story - though if I've missed one someplace, I'd love to see it. But with only Clifford Davis' story to base it upon and without some independent account of this incident, I still have major doubts as to whether it really happened.
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  #52  
Old 03-11-2012, 12:51 PM
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I've never read an account by anyone else who claims to have been at that show who has repeated the four-hour "Black Magic Woman" jam story - though if I've missed one someplace, I'd love to see it..
But you have read an account of some one who was at the show ?
What surprises me in general about these things, is why the people who were at these shows don't ever post about them. Blue horizon and myself were not the only two people at the Lyceum concert in 1970- there must have been 500 people there, poss 1000 maybe many even more ! The Colour Me Pop prog broadcast on BBC 2 must have had half a million viewers- hopefully a lot more but I'm the only one that seems to have posted about seeing it -incredible !Some comfirmation from people out there would be helpful !
I'm not saying this is evidence that the four hour jam never happened -I'm saying if you're out there in internetland and were at itf or Gawd's sake post your recollections !!
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  #53  
Old 03-11-2012, 01:12 PM
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I'm saying if you're out there in internetland and were at itf or Gawd's sake post your recollections !!
Not that you really care or anything but the Rumours band lineup played an open air concert in New Zealand in 1980 where an infamous event occured. This show was also broadcast LIVE throughout the country that day yet no one from there has ever told us what happened from their point of view. So I know how you feel.
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  #54  
Old 03-11-2012, 01:28 PM
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But you have read an account of some one who was at the show ?!
Only the Clifford Davis story as related to Bob Brunning and mentioned in his book. As far as I know, none of the band members (or anyone else) has ever mentioned the band performing a four-hour jam at this or any other show. Of course, that in itself does not say that it never happened, but all in all, I'm skeptical. I'd be more inclined to believe the band played for four+ hours than that they jammed continuously to one song for that full time.

On that subject, if you read Brunning's book carefully, the story he relates from Davis never explicitly states that the band jammed for four hours to "Black Magic Woman." He writes that Green started up that number and that they finished playing four hours later. Whether that implies that they jammed continuously for that time is up to interpretation, and I can certainly see where that can easily be read into what is written (and perhaps that ambiguity was intentional). But the book does not really make it clear and certainly never explicitly claims that. As far as I can tell, it's other people who later built upon and embellished this brief account who came up with the "four-hour Black Magic Woman jam at the climax show of the tour" legend.
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  #55  
Old 03-11-2012, 02:34 PM
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Not that you really care or anything but the Rumours band lineup played an open air concert in New Zealand in 1980 where an infamous event occured. This show was also broadcast LIVE throughout the country that day yet no one from there has ever told us what happened from their point of view. So I know how you feel.
#

Why would I not care ? Do you mean I'm not interested in anything to do with the Rumours era band ?
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  #56  
Old 03-11-2012, 03:21 PM
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Default four hour jams at the fillmore

I was not at that concert in 1971, but I can tell you that I was at 8 or 9 or i cant remember , during that time period, late shows at the fillmore east , in colleges throughout the northeast, where it was not unusual for the 11pm show to end in daylight.. While this is proof of nothing I have no reason do disbelieve of a jam going on till daylight because I saw the "Dead", the Airplane, and a few other bands do just that.


vinnie c
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  #57  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by doodyhead View Post
I was not at that concert in 1971, but I can tell you that I was at 8 or 9 or i cant remember , during that time period, late shows at the fillmore east , in colleges throughout the northeast, where it was not unusual for the 11pm show to end in daylight.. While this is proof of nothing I have no reason do disbelieve of a jam going on till daylight because I saw the "Dead", the Airplane, and a few other bands do just that.


vinnie c
Thanks, Vinnie - I have no doubt at all that some of these shows lasted late into the night or early morning, and it's quite possible that Fleetwood Mac may have played a very long show there...whether or not they played a single four-hour jam.

But you've also pointed out another reason to be skeptical of Clifford Davis' account of that show as written in Bob Brunning's book. Davis claimed that Bill Graham told him to get the band offstage just after midnight. Does that make any sense at all? After all, the Fillmore was Graham's own venue - why would he want the band off the stage if they wanted to continue and so did the audience? And according to Davis, he convinced Graham to let the show go on. If that scenario had indeed happened, can you imagine Davis - or any band manager for that matter - succeeding in telling Bill Graham what to do in his own venue? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

Again, that doesn't mean a four-hour jam didn't happen...but it casts a good deal of doubt upon the source of the story. I guess I will remain skeptical until I see another independent source on this event taking place.
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  #58  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sharksfan2000 View Post
But you've also pointed out another reason to be skeptical of Clifford Davis' account of that show as written in Bob Brunning's book. Davis claimed that Bill Graham told him to get the band offstage just after midnight. Does that make any sense at all? After all, the Fillmore was Graham's own venue - why would he want the band off the stage if they wanted to continue and so did the audience? .
and didn't Bill Graham, being a shrewd operator with an eye to the future ,arrange for everything to be recorded whether the bands knew it or not- hence the Wolfgang's Vault archive ? Having said that, they seem to be adding new stuff all the time (or are they just recyling old material ?)

Last edited by THD; 03-11-2012 at 06:02 PM..
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  #59  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:58 PM
mzero mzero is offline
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Thanks, Vinnie - I have no doubt at all that some of these shows lasted late into the night or early morning, and it's quite possible that Fleetwood Mac may have played a very long show there...whether or not they played a single four-hour jam.

But you've also pointed out another reason to be skeptical of Clifford Davis' account of that show as written in Bob Brunning's book. Davis claimed that Bill Graham told him to get the band offstage just after midnight. Does that make any sense at all? After all, the Fillmore was Graham's own venue - why would he want the band off the stage if they wanted to continue and so did the audience? And according to Davis, he convinced Graham to let the show go on. If that scenario had indeed happened, can you imagine Davis - or any band manager for that matter - succeeding in telling Bill Graham what to do in his own venue? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

Again, that doesn't mean a four-hour jam didn't happen...but it casts a good deal of doubt upon the source of the story. I guess I will remain skeptical until I see another independent source on this event taking place.
next time there is a q&a with christine, john, pete, danny, nigel w or mick somebody should ask about this!

z
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  #60  
Old 03-11-2012, 10:38 PM
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Default early or late show

I do not have the answer to this, but The Fillmore East more often than not had an early and late show 7 0r 8 Pm and 11, or midnight show. The Band of Gypsies Album on the inside cover show the clock on the wall inside the auditorium as Jimi Hendrix celebrated the New Year there (1970) That was his second show that night. It could be that Fleetwood Mac had to get off so the late show could start again. Bill was a stickler if it meant paying customers

vinnie c
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