Danny Kirwan (Blog Critics.Org)

[dansven]

Peter jammed with some local guys in the basement of that Munich mansion. The music was new and fresh, and it thrilled Peter. Next Fleetwood Mac gig Peter thought his own playing was superb, but Mick told him he sounded as if he was mad.

I think the only way the "Munich incident" contributed to Peter leaving, was that it strengthened the feeling that he and the rest of the band were going in different musical directions. Besides, they were just young lads ... as we develope and mature we realize that we differ in personalities and interests. I think they were growing apart, rather than together (if that makes sense).

McVie's "Trauma city" story is a nice myth, but probably nothing more than that. What really thrills me about the whole story is: WHERE IS THE DAMN TAPE?!?!?

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

The Munich story is always good for some conjecture - the myth is so prominent in the band's history that it's impossible to ignore. Of course it makes for a wonderfully sensational story that is probably much more interesting than the truth behind it. My thoughts have been consistent with John, Vinnie, and Ms. Moose, that it was probably not the catalyst for such a sudden transformation in Peter Green as what has usually been portrayed. Of course I was not there either, and none of us except Peter know just what his state of mind was during that period - and he may no longer recall that so clearly anymore himself.

The band members at that point were all very young, and I doubt that they had any experience in dealing with mental health issues of the type that would strike Peter. And I'm sure they were having such a good time in the band that it would have been easy to overlook the onset of such issues, which may have started prior to the Munich visit. I suspect that most of us, had we been in their shoes, might well have seen things in the same way.

So when Peter finally told the band he was quitting immediately after the Munich stay, it would have been easy for them to blame what may have seemed like a sudden change of heart on what happened there. In retrospect, it seems very likely that Peter had wanted to leave the band for some time at that point - signs of him wanting to leave at an earlier date are contained in Celmins' writing and elsewhere - but his finally making the decision and telling the band may still have come as a shock to them.

But the stories of Peter wanting to give away large sums of money to charity certainly predate Munich, his musical style had been changing for some time already (and there's no dramatic change that can be noticed in the shows performed immediately before and after the Munich date), and from what I've read, his behavior had already displayed the impact of the stress that must have come with the constant demands of touring and of producing more hit records.

It's certainly possible that what happened in Munich may have given Peter the resolve to finally make that decision to leave, but we'll probably never know. But here's a thought that I'm not sure I've seen expressed elsewhere - having made that decision, Peter may well have changed how he dealt with the other band members, the media, etc. It must have seemed a huge weight off his shoulders, and it would not be surprising if that alone would alter his behavior. He may not have felt the same sense of responsibility or comradery toward his bandmates and others that he had felt before. If that was the case, I can understand how the other band members could have seen Munich as being the cause of the dramatic and sudden change in his behavior that is so often described, since Peter's decision to leave came immediately afterwards. It may have had less to do with his mental health or with LSD and more with how he may have suddenly felt himself to be separate from those around him in the band, knowing that he was about to move on. I don't know whether that was really the case, but it seems a reasonable conjecture given what we do know.

I'm far from an expert in mental health issues, and have little idea of just when they began to affect Peter. Perhaps the onset of his problems was quite sudden, but I think it's very possible that it may have just seemed that way to those around him.

I think what angered John McVie the most was the last FM concert with PG at a festival 5/70. The rest of the band is very emotional knowing it's the end, while Peter acts indifferent. Is that a sign of mental illness, or a burden about to be lifted? Of course the last concert ends with someone cutting the power, leaving only Mick Fleetwood to play his drums for a while.

Peter personally felt betrayed by the rejection of his ideas, which fifteen years later would have him nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize (Live Aid; Bob Geldof). If I'm 23 years old, was considered the leader/driving force of a potentially great rock band only to be told "NO" for my ideas, I would be extremely angry. While Mick Fleetwood has settled his differences with Green back in the 70's, John McVie never came around.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by dansven

Peter jammed with some local guys in the basement of that Munich mansion. The music was new and fresh, and it thrilled Peter. Next Fleetwood Mac gig Peter thought his own playing was superb, but Mick told him he sounded as if he was mad.

What was the next gig? I want tapes!!!

It's all about the Wah pedal. Peter Green became obsessed with it after Munich. He tried to use it at every opportunity. Yet he didn't use for those great slow blues songs. Only Hendrix could match what Peter Green was doing with that device at the time. I've heard all of the experimental late 1970 Jimi Hendrix outtakes. "End Of The Game" is on another level. If you listen to that album today, it's makes sense. Forty years ago, they would've tested your sanity, and they did. Yet it's not insane music.

[dansven]

Originally Posted by slipkid

What was the next gig? I want tapes!!!

I was referring to the tape made in the basement with the people on the Munich house. I've heard ex-wife Jane has it. But yeah, I would like to have a tape of the gig Fleetwood Mac played next too!!!

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by dansven

I was referring to the tape made in the basement with the people on the Munich house. I've heard ex-wife Jane has it. But yeah, I would like to have a tape of the gig Fleetwood Mac played next too!!!

Peter Green wants those Munich tapes as well. Concerning Jane Samuels, I don't think it's going to happen. As of 1999 Peter Green had yet to meet his daughter at the age of 21. I'm sure that whatever happened to cause this rift, it's probably best not discussed.

[dino]

Originally Posted by slipkid

What was the next gig? I want tapes!!!

It's all about the Wah pedal. Peter Green became obsessed with it after Munich. He tried to use it at every opportunity. Yet he didn't use for those great slow blues songs. Only Hendrix could match what Peter Green was doing with that device at the time. I've heard all of the experimental late 1970 Jimi Hendrix outtakes. "End Of The Game" is on another level. If you listen to that album today, it's makes sense. Forty years ago, they would've tested your sanity, and they did. Yet it's not insane music.

That's going too far, sorry. First, Jimi Hendrix was dead in "late 1970" (September) and his mastery of the wah wah pedal is unbeatable. Greeny did use the effect too much, like a new toy.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by dino

That's going too far, sorry. First, Jimi Hendrix was dead in "late 1970" (September) and his mastery of the wah wah pedal is unbeatable. Greeny did use the effect too much, like a new toy.

Jimi Hendrix was still alive when Peter Green recorded "End of the Game" in early/mid summer 1970.

Well at least I now know where you stand. If you listen to the album (EoTG), there is a song that sounds like it's from Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew".

The Roundhouse late April 1970 solo of "Black Magic Woman" is pure wah pedal perfection. It's beyond Beck, and Clapton at the time. The only other guitarist was Hendrix.


Let's also not forget the "Underway" breaks in the Rattlesnake Shake jams, or the "Sugar Mama" from Amsterdam 4/69. He was the only British guitarist who didn't fear Jimi Hendrix because he could play with him, and he did on at least a couple of meetings.

[dino]

Originally Posted by slipkid

Jimi Hendrix was still alive when Peter Green recorded "End of the Game" in early/mid summer 1970.

Well at least I now know where you stand. If you listen to the album (EoTG), there is a song that sounds like it's from Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew".

The Roundhouse late April 1970 solo of "Black Magic Woman" is pure wah pedal perfection. It's beyond Beck, and Clapton at the time. The only other guitarist was Hendrix.


Let's also not forget the "Underway" breaks in the Rattlesnake Shake jams, or the "Sugar Mama" from Amsterdam 4/69. He was the only British guitarist who didn't fear Jimi Hendrix because he could play with him, and he did on at least a couple of meetings.

Oh, that's a bit silly. I am a huge long term-fan and collector of both Greeny, Jimi and Miles Davis! So my opinion is at least as valid as yours.

Would agree that the only competition at the time was Hendrix. But he jammed with Clapton, Jeff Beck and Green in New York during 1968, so your statement is a bit off. Peter on Jimi:

"RN: Did you meet Jimi Hendrix?
PG: Yes, I bumped into him.
RN: Did you ever play with him, jam with him?
PG: Yes, twice. Once he took over from me in the Speakeasy; I was jamming with Eric Burdon and some other people. There was an interesting atmosphere around Jimi Hendrix. Very Hard to discern briefly.
RN: Did you like his playing?
PG: Not particularly, No.
RN: Why? Was it too loud? Too fast?
PG: Too ahead of itself. If you didn't see that or you weren't prepared for it. it could take you surprise."

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by dino

Oh, that's a bit silly. I am a huge long term-fan and collector of both Greeny, Jimi and Miles Davis! So my opinion is at least as valid as yours.

Would agree that the only competition at the time was Hendrix. But he jammed with Clapton, Jeff Beck and Green in New York during 1968, so your statement is a bit off. Peter on Jimi:

"RN: Did you meet Jimi Hendrix?
PG: Yes, I bumped into him.
RN: Did you ever play with him, jam with him?
PG: Yes, twice. Once he took over from me in the Speakeasy; I was jamming with Eric Burdon and some other people. There was an interesting atmosphere around Jimi Hendrix. Very Hard to discern briefly.
RN: Did you like his playing?
PG: Not particularly, No.
RN: Why? Was it too loud? Too fast?
PG: Too ahead of itself. If you didn't see that or you weren't prepared for it. it could take you surprise."

What these statements tell me is that both players had very definite ideas about how and what to play and when to play it. In all likelihood there is respect in there somewhere. I really don't know about Hendrix but I never got the sense of him being into headcutting and one upsmanship. Jimi seems to sense the flow of the music and reshapes it into what he think is t is and pushes it into directions and other directions and possibilities, sort of an active role like a composer. Peter seems to play to the song and to the movement of the band at the moment. What I hear is recognition of different approaches to the same input.
Many guitar players at various points in their life have acted like gunslingers seeing who is better. Fans like to rate things too.
In my opinion (back to the original thread) in the short period that Peter played with a Wah Wah pedal, got very,very very good at using it. and of course like all of us. I would love to have heard what he sounded like in the early 7o's but I suspect that he just did not play as much as his life began to redirect. and of course Jimi Hendrix did not get any better either.

doodyhead

[dansven]

Peter did some tasty wah-wah on Toe Fat's "There'll Be Canges Made".
And he actually did some on wah-wah in the last years with Splinter Group too.

[dino]

Originally Posted by dansven

Peter did some tasty wah-wah on Toe Fat's "There'll Be Canges Made".
And he actually did some on wah-wah in the last years with Splinter Group too.

Yes, that's a good track! And the Memphis Slim album.

Overall IMHO it's useless to argue about which players are "best". Green and Hendrix had rather different approaches, both neither was into "cutting contests" and there surely was mutual admiration there.

[Ms Moose]

Originally Posted by dino

That's going too far, sorry. First, Jimi Hendrix was dead in "late 1970" (September) and his mastery of the wah wah pedal is unbeatable. Greeny did use the effect too much, like a new toy.

(Unfortunately I don't know how to multi-quote):

...but it is very interesting to follow this discussion about the wah-wah. I never liked the sound of it no matter who played it - not even our hero

But I suppose it's a matter of ears or taste?

On the matter of "who is best" I agree with you dino, but leaving out "the cutting contests" would also mean less heated discussions on The Ledge. Maybe instead of discussing "who is best" we should describe what it is we like about Hendrix, Green or whoever...? There is a world of difference in the playing and both is magnificent in different ways.

Ms Moose

[dino]

Originally Posted by Ms Moose

(Unfortunately I don't know how to multi-quote):

...but it is very interesting to follow this discussion about the wah-wah. I never liked the sound of it no matter who played it - not even our hero

But I suppose it's a matter of ears or taste?

On the matter of "who is best" I agree with you dino, but leaving out "the cutting contests" would also mean less heated discussions on The Ledge. Maybe instead of discussing "who is best" we should describe what it is we like about Hendrix, Green or whoever...? There is a world of difference in the playing and both is magnificent in different ways.

Ms Moose

You're very perceptive, Ms Moose.

With Hendrix I like the free-flowing imagination, the extreme pushing of boundaries, the ability to play whatever genre of music, the way the guitar sounds like a human voice.

With Greeny I like the beautiful tone, the incredible taste and restraint, the purity of expression.

And then both had great voices and wrote cool songs. Not many musicians have that combination. Not Clapton, not Beck.

Does anyone have another particular favorite player?

[GJK]

Originally Posted by dino

Does anyone have another particular favorite player?

Duane Allman.

[dansven]

Originally Posted by dino

With Hendrix I like the free-flowing imagination, the extreme pushing of boundaries, the ability to play whatever genre of music, the way the guitar sounds like a human voice.

With Greeny I like the beautiful tone, the incredible taste and restraint, the purity of expression.

Hahaha yes, I feel exactly the same!

Originally Posted by dino

Does anyone have another particular favorite player

Several good guitar players, some because of their technique, others because of what/how they play. B.B King in the 60s. Snowy White is superb. Charlie Sexton in Dylan's band. Willie Nelson's later stuff is uneven but charming. George Harrison's solo slide playing is tasty. Jerry Garcia. Freddy King. Muddy Waters, simple but good. Blind Willie Johnson. Django. Jeff Beck, Ronnie Wood, Joe Perry...

Anyway, I think none of them have Peter's feeling and taste or Jimi's imagination. Not even close..