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  #16  
Old 08-14-2009, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by chiliD View Post
To me:

Everything else pales in comparison to the Allman Bros Live At The Fillmore East. Long been touted as the best live album ever released, bar none. Derek & The Dominos' In Concert is far back at #2. The Live At The Boston Tea Party is probably a distant third. Live At Leeds, as originally released with only 5 tracks, is pathetic...it wasn't until they reissued the expanded version on CD that it's true "worth" finally appears, too little, too late. The Stones didn't release a decent live album until Flashpoint. Ten Years After's Recorded Live is definitely in the Top 5 of all-time live albums. And, let's not forget Jimi Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys.

Something told me you would come here to defend the Allman Brothers.

I don't know about the "long been touted". As far as I can tell, you had those that chose Fillmore, and others that chose Leeds. Jam band vs. the power chord. While Leeds was only five songs originally, side two of that album was freakin' amazing. I don't agree that Live in Boston is a distant third, in fact it's now my favorite by a long shot. What suffers from "Fillmore" is Whipping Post and You Don't Love Me. The jams get a little stale. Now Hot Lanta, and Liz Reed are perfect. Band of Gypsys is a good one, so is Dominoes Fillmore, which was released in '94. In the jamming dept. I like the way that Green and Kirwan hold my attention, where other bands (Grateful Dead of course) can get quite boring. So for me it's Boston all the way.
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  #17  
Old 08-14-2009, 05:46 PM
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Something told me you would come here to defend the Allman Brothers.

I don't know about the "long been touted". As far as I can tell, you had those that chose Fillmore, and others that chose Leeds. Jam band vs. the power chord. While Leeds was only five songs originally, side two of that album was freakin' amazing. I don't agree that Live in Boston is a distant third, in fact it's now my favorite by a long shot. What suffers from "Fillmore" is Whipping Post and You Don't Love Me. The jams get a little stale. Now Hot Lanta, and Liz Reed are perfect. Band of Gypsys is a good one, so is Dominoes Fillmore, which was released in '94. In the jamming dept. I like the way that Green and Kirwan hold my attention, where other bands (Grateful Dead of course) can get quite boring. So for me it's Boston all the way.
I fail to understand how ANYONE can call "Whippin' Post" & "You Don't Love Me" ...st-st-st-stale (?!?!?!). Same with the 40+ minute "Mountain Jam" from the Fillmore Concerts reissue (identical track as the one on Eat A Peach) For me, those 20+ minutes go by like they're barely 5 minutes. (Granted, same thing with the Boston Tea Party versions of "Rattlesnake Shake", too).

I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?" (but, then, we'll never know where the Allman Bros would've gone had Duane Allman & Berry Oakley lived, either....plus, Hendrix, Janis, Morrison, etc, we just lost too many great ones too soon)

Cream never put out a real live album while they were together...just live tracks mixed with studio tracks for their last two albums. The two live albums they DID release were well after they'd broken up...so I don't really count those, since they're mish-mash from different shows, not all from one concert or series of shows within 24-48 hours. But, if they had, they'd be up there!

Yeah, I like the Dominos' Fillmore set, too...but, I prefer a couple of track choices from the In Concert album better...for example, "Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad?"...the In Concert version is far superior to the version from the Fillmore set...can't recall off the top of my head, but it's from either the evening show on the same day, or the next night. I think "Let It Rain" & "Tell The Truth" are also from different shows between the two sets, but for the most part, the Fillmore set is just an expanded version of In Concert.

The only real downside of Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys is Buddy Miles' scat singing...its great in a few places, but he just didn't seem to know when to back off. I read a thing where when Jimi was mixing the tapes for release, he just put his head in his hands and screamed "Buddy, shut the f**k UP!!!". Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough to hear the final product.

Now, for the most part, I'm right there with you regarding the Grateful Dead...love 'em a lot, but damned they can get boring quite often.
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Last edited by chiliD; 08-14-2009 at 06:06 PM..
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  #18  
Old 08-15-2009, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by chiliD View Post
I fail to understand how ANYONE can call "Whippin' Post" & "You Don't Love Me" ...st-st-st-stale (?!?!?!). Same with the 40+ minute "Mountain Jam" from the Fillmore Concerts reissue (identical track as the one on Eat A Peach) For me, those 20+ minutes go by like they're barely 5 minutes. (Granted, same thing with the Boston Tea Party versions of "Rattlesnake Shake", too).
I was aware of "Mountain Jam" from the "Fillmore Concerts". Since that came from "Eat a Peach", I left it alone, and it's better than Whippin' Post, and You Don't Love Me/Soul Serenade by many miles.

I don't want to get technical, but the Allmans' (when Duane was alive) had a tendency to get "stuck in a rut" with their solos. This is sacrilege I know, but Derek Trucks, and Warren Haynes are doing the '69-'71 Allmans today in the 2.0 version, and I love it! In fact I saw the Allmans in '89, and many say that Haynes doing Duane Allman, with a sober Dickey Betts maybe one of the best line-ups ever.

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Originally Posted by chiliD View Post
I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?" (but, then, we'll never know where the Allman Bros would've gone had Duane Allman & Berry Oakley lived, either....plus, Hendrix, Janis, Morrison, etc, we just lost too many great ones too soon)
You get my original point with Fleetwood Mac! If the Boston shows were released in their period of time (instead of 1985 on LP), it would've changed everything for the band. What scared Peter Green was that the entire summer of 1970 was supposed to be another four month U.S. tour, and he didn't want to do it. If he had the stamina to pull it off, I could almost guarantee, that we would've never had that self titled album with the witch from CA, and that other album called Rumours. They were THAT close to greatness.

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Originally Posted by chiliD View Post

Cream never put out a real live album while they were together...just live tracks mixed with studio tracks for their last two albums. The two live albums they DID release were well after they'd broken up...so I don't really count those, since they're mish-mash from different shows, not all from one concert or series of shows within 24-48 hours. But, if they had, they'd be up there!

Yeah, I like the Domino's' Fillmore set, too...but, I prefer a couple of track choices from the In Concert album better...for example, "Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad?"...the In Concert version is far superior to the version from the Fillmore set...can't recall off the top of my head, but it's from either the evening show on the same day, or the next night. I think "Let It Rain" & "Tell The Truth" are also from different shows between the two sets, but for the most part, the Fillmore set is just an expanded version of In Concert.
Those Cream Live I and II are horrible. It explains why the band broke up on a few levels. Towards the end the band was just on an ego trip, mainly Bruce vs. ham hands Ginger Baker. Ginger's ego is so off the charts even today, he can't get over that Keith Moon was a better drummer in his prime. Filming a documentary for the RAH 2005 concerts, he can help but to knock The Who because they weren't playing "refined" blues rock music. IMHO Ginger Baker, and Neil Peart are examples of overrated drummers of their time.

I should check out the original "In Concert" for the Dominoes.
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  #19  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:03 AM
dino dino is offline
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Originally Posted by slipkid View Post

Those Cream Live I and II are horrible. It explains why the band broke up on a few levels. Towards the end the band was just on an ego trip, mainly Bruce vs. ham hands Ginger Baker.
I should check out the original "In Concert" for the Dominoes.

I agree about the Cream live albums. Excess is the word. Clapton just goes on and on riffing tunelessly, Ginger takes a 10 minute solo...

As for Band of Gypsys, it's my personal live album favorite. He did live to hear the result - the album came out in April, and Hendrix died in September. The song choices, edits and mixes are Jimi's. It has weak spots (it was a contractual filler, quickly done), but "Machine Gun" is out of this world.

Wonder what songs Mac would have selected from the Boston Tea Party concerts?
IMHO, Spencer's parody stuff doesn't translate to record. But pick..all of Peter's songs and the best Danny stuff and it would have been a huge record.
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  #20  
Old 08-16-2009, 05:28 PM
snoot snoot is offline
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Default For the short sighted

It's all fairly subjective in the end but there's no shortage of notable concerts captured live during the sixties and seventies (beyond what first meets the eye, or those thoroughly idiotic Rolling Stone rag lists). I rate the following both by impact of the time, plus how well I feel these hold their own over time (listed roughly by date):

Best Live albums of the late 60's-early 70's period IMO (as cited by consensus already):
- Cream - Live Cream Vol 1 + 2 (1968) ^
- The Who - Live At Leeds (1970) [Expanded set]
- Fleetwood Mac - Live At The Boston Tea Party (1970)
- Allman Brothers Band - Live At Fillmore East (1971)

Live albums from that same period that could easily be categorized with the above IMO:
- John Mayall - The Turning Point (1969)
- Elvis Presley - At The International Hotel (1969)
- Ten Years After - Live At The Fillmore East (1970)
- Creedence Clearwater Revival - The Concert (1970) **
- It's A Beautiful Day - Live At Carnegie Hall (1972)
- Deep Purple - Made In Japan (1972)
- Elvis Presley - At Madison Square Garden (1972)
- Ten Years After - Recorded Live (1973)
- Van Morrison - It's Too Late To Stop Now (1973)

Notable (= above average + above disappointing) live albums recorded during the 60's:
- Jerry Lee Lewis - Live At The Star Club (1964)
- The Yardbirds - Five Live Yardbirds (1964)
- Johnny Rivers - Live At The Whiskey A-Go-Go [series] (1964-65)
- The Ventures - On Stage (1965)

Notable (= above average + above disappointing) live albums from the mid-to-late 70's IMO:
- Alvin Lee - In Flight (1974)
- Robin Trower - Live! (1975)
- Peter Frampton - Frampton Comes Alive (1976)
- Jackson Browne - Running On Empty (1977)
- Cheap Trick - At Budokan (1979)

> Frampton, Browne and Cheap Trick don't rate among my fave bands, but those live albums clearly have their moments.

* Rolling Stones - Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out! (1970) :: overrated [saw the Stones a number of times during this period and this recording somehow misses the genuinely engaging interplay between Richards and Taylor]

* Jimi Hendrix - Band Of Gypsies (1970) :: beyond the nice guitar theatrics, it tails off on the whole rather quickly

* Derek & The Dominos - In Concert + Live At The Fillmore (1972) :: unfortunately misses one key element from the studio band who was no longer on the scene by the time the album made its appearance (but could have been when it was recorded - and would have helped greatly - if he hadn't been off making #4 from the top)

** CCR - Live In Europe (1971) :: recorded shortly after brother Tom Fogerty left the band, the 1998 Japanese import remastering of the trio brings new life to the original (which admittedly sounded a tad harsh at times)

^ I believe it was Cream who were the first to tap the sonic reach of mobile recording equipment behind wizards Tom Dowd and Bill Halverson

See you mothers later. Jb

Last edited by snoot; 08-16-2009 at 05:46 PM..
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  #21  
Old 08-17-2009, 01:07 AM
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Welcome back! You used to keep the Peter Green, and Pre-Rumours boards alive with your opinions. Without you it's been pretty dead every three weeks or so. I would replace the Cream Live I + II with Deep Purple's "Made in Japan". The rest of your list I would agree with.

Last edited by slipkid; 08-17-2009 at 01:10 AM..
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  #22  
Old 08-17-2009, 04:52 AM
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>>>I agree about the Cream live albums. Excess is the word. Clapton just goes on and on riffing tunelessly, Ginger takes a 10 minute solo...


Yes the live albums, mainly recorded late 68 when the band were burned out, are a bit excessive, but the live parts of "Wheels of Fire", recorded March 68 are truly fantastic. Spoonful, one of the greatest moments of the art of improvisation performed by a rock band, and the fiery Clapton solo on Crossroads...
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  #23  
Old 08-17-2009, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by slipkid View Post
Welcome back! You used to keep the Peter Green, and Pre-Rumours boards alive with your opinions.
You mean, I used to rile the barricaded green troops to a state of near agitation, often with teeth gnashing. lol Well as it were, I found my way out of my cave one fine day, stumbled for a bit before passing out, only to wake up and find myself here once again. Go figure.

You know the problem with citing things like "ace albums" is that there are always more than what first meets the eye. I mean, no **** sherlock. Case in point: I blissfully overlooked Gordon Lightfoot's Sunday Concert (1969), a classic acoustic affair from the great Canadian balladeer teamed with fingerpicker Red Shea -- complete with a winning cover of Dylan's "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues". Then there was Focus Live At The Rainbow (1973) featuring Thijs van Leer and Jan Akkerman in top Dutchmeister form. Not too shabby there either.

Hell, I even enjoy The Carpenters' Live In Japan (1974) -and- Live At The Palladium (1976). Talk about a sap. But of course, you have to be either a Carpenters fan, or - at a minimum - imbued with a mellow enough musical mindset to accept a style like theirs on its own merits. For me it's easy, as they had great melodies and arrangements coupled with a top notch vocalist - one who can actually carry a note without the all too common overlay of flatness. Imagine that.

I'm sure if I put my mind to it, I could come up with even more winning concert releases from that memorable era. If nothing else, the ones cited above stand out first and foremost. BTW your point on Cream is appreciated but only partly ... however I do know where you're coming from. See below for more.
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  #24  
Old 08-17-2009, 07:14 AM
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Yes the live albums, mainly recorded late 68 when the band were burned out, are a bit excessive, but the live parts of "Wheels of Fire", recorded March 68 are truly fantastic...
You and Slipkid and others make a valid point re excess, only a few things should be remembered. First off, that sound was damn near mind blowing in its time. Beyond that, Clapton's free form jams may have been anything but "perfect" but still outshone most of the rockers of the era. He was clearly pushing new boundaries, rivaled only by Hendrix in that regard (with Beck and Green and Page et al pulling up the rear). Lastly, most audiences were either stoned or lit up on juice und spirits in one form or another. The improvs of the psychedelic era - and the sheer volume of the amplification - were intended to BLOW YOUR MIND as much as anything else. 'Nuff said.

Do those two live Cream volumes stand up well over time? Well definitely not to the point of psychedelic nirvana that's for sure, and I bet EC would be the first to agree. But pinned to the time, they were pretty wild and at the vanguard of pushing the ever expanding rock envelope (plus a clear prelude to heavy metal to boot, for better or worse). In any case, nothing tops the reach of Disraeli Gears, but that's studio material so no point heading there.

You also bring up a second interesting point, when referencing the live part of Wheels Of Fire [thanks for refreshing my sleepy cerebral coconut] as in my mind, all three sets have long blurred into one. And I agree, without tracks like Crossroads and Spoonful, you can't reach an apex of the group live just as you've alluded to. As I see it, if you really want a tight Cream set live, you would have to cherry-pick from all three sources. Too bad it wasn't done that way originally!

BTW if memory serves me right, Crossroads - in all its celebrated glory - took a bit of production sorcery by producer Felix Pappalardi to attain that tight framing. The original recording was considerably longer, then spliced to perfection for effect + impact. And damn if he and EC didn't pull that off adroitly.

PS for slipkid. As for Ginger Baker, that guy had chops. Sure, a touch over the top at times but come on. Beating your meat with yer sticks was par for the course back then. Too bad he and Jack Bruce were always at each other's throats, that was the bigger problem. That reduced Clapton to the role of peacemaker as much as anything else in the group, something that clearly grated on him as time went on. It also guaranteed any longevity to the band was to be short lived.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:23 AM
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BTW if memory serves me right, Crossroads - in all its celebrated glory - took a bit of production sorcery by producer Felix Pappalardi to attain that tight framing. The original recording was considerably longer, then spliced to perfection for effect + impact. And damn if he and EC didn't pull that off adroitly.
No, that's a myth. "Crossroads" on Wheels Of Fire is exactly how it was performed...no edits. (per Tom Dowd...mentioned the DVD bio of him.)

And, don't forget the killer live tracks from their Goodbye album. "I'm So Glad", "Sittin' On Top Of The World" & "Politician", as tight as Cream EVER sounded live.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:23 AM
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PS for slipkid. As for Ginger Baker, that guy had chops. Sure, a touch over the top at times but come on. Beating your meat with yer sticks was par for the course back then. Too bad he and Jack Bruce were always at each other's throats, that was the bigger problem. That reduced Clapton to the role of peacemaker as much as anything else in the group, something that clearly grated on him as time went on. It also guaranteed any longevity to the band was to be short lived.

I'll go on record, the live material from Wheels of Fire and Goodbye are top notch.

There's no doubt Ginger Baker had chops, I just don't like his style. He was a master at the double bass drum, however he never used his wrists the way Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Ian Paice, or Clive Bunker did. It wasn't an effortless style of play. He thumped the drums.
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  #27  
Old 08-17-2009, 11:33 AM
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Cream are mindblowingly boring compared to The Jimi Hendrix Experience or Green-era Mac. IMHO, Cream were best when they stuck to 4-5 minutes per song - witness the early live tapes. Hendrix and Green had the imagination to make a 10-minute solo worthwhile, something very rare. I can't think of another guitarists with that gift, but that's just me. And drum solos are always boring.

Last edited by dino; 08-17-2009 at 11:36 AM..
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  #28  
Old 08-17-2009, 04:00 PM
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No, that's a myth. "Crossroads" on Wheels Of Fire is exactly how it was performed...no edits. (per Tom Dowd...mentioned the DVD bio of him.)
Ah good to hear that confirmed. That story has swirled about for years. When I first heard it I was a little surprised I'll admit, since the track always seemed seamless. But given that so much of their concert material is extended, I figured anything might be possible. There is only one point where such an edit could have occurred IMO, and that's well into the song (can you guess where?). Glad you set me right - I like it that way better.

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Originally Posted by chiliD View Post
And, don't forget the killer live tracks from their Goodbye album. "I'm So Glad", "Sittin' On Top Of The World" & "Politician", as tight as Cream EVER sounded live.
Ya more of the same, as it dribbled in a la carte as only Cream could do it. I recall I had a self-compiled cassette of all of Cream's "best" material once upon a time, one side live and the other studio. That's how good they were considered live by most of us, whereas few bands back then could merit such space considerations (let alone release enough concert material). Probably hasn't been played in 20 to 25 years now -- same with all my original LPs of the band. That's also how most did it years ago as many here know or recall, when tape began to rule over clumsy discs. The one truly great upside was that ability to make custom compilations of one's own choosing.

Slice it or dice it any way you want, Cream set the world on fire live back then in concert, more than any other act of the day (circa 1966-68). They preceded Fleetwood Mac in the jam style, and licked Hendrix at his own game by being having a greater overall reach. There were axes every bit as good as EC at the time, some arguably better, but few brought as well rounded and varied a package to the table as the trio comprising Cream. How well their concert sound has withstood the test of time is for each to decide. But that was then, and this is now. And those were two clearly different times.
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  #29  
Old 08-17-2009, 04:15 PM
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There's no doubt Ginger Baker had chops, I just don't like his style. He was a master at the double bass drum, however he never used his wrists the way Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Ian Paice, or Clive Bunker did. It wasn't an effortless style of play. He thumped the drums.
Yeah well he was in a power trio at the time, and in such configurations the drummer is expected to carry extra weight to add to the mix and fill things out a bit better. I always felt he pulled the task off well. I like your anointed ones though - not a weak one in the crop. But there are a lot of other talented stick men too, starting with Baker's ultimate replacement in the Slowhand sphere, Jim Gordon (albeit rotting in a Cali prison now for killing his mama).

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Cream are mindblowingly boring compared to The Jimi Hendrix Experience or Green-era Mac. IMHO, Cream were best when they stuck to 4-5 minutes per song - witness the early live tapes. Hendrix and Green had the imagination to make a 10-minute solo worthwhile, something very rare. I can't think of another guitarists with that gift, but that's just me. And drum solos are always boring.
You're too guitar minded for your own good. But that's cool, to each his own. There's more to a band and its ultimate place in the sun than just the point man. Clapton easily fits in with the company of Hendrix and Beck, and certain other axemeisters who took to the stage immediately upon their heels. They were/are all superb rockers, but each possessed varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses. No man possessed it all. But when it came to 1963-1967, NO ONE topped EC in leading the charge - and if there was a single exception, it would have to be Jimi on technical, cutting edge ability alone. Thus the name Clapton got. As for 1968 and beyond, that's a whole different story with the emergence of Green, Allman, Lee and so many others (just to cite those three is cherry picking in a way). I'm also going by the time they had a truly effective splash on the public at large, and in the jam or improv style.

Now I'll give you that drum solos are generally boring, but they're even more boring when caught on tape. In concert they're mostly a diversion and break for the rest of the band, plus a chance for the guy on the sticks to show off his chops and add a little percussive punch to the proceedings. It was obligatory back in the day, especially in the psychedelic arena. I'll go one step further - for every ten 10-minute guitar solos, nine probably could have been reduced for better effect and punch. Again, especially if they're going to be transferred later into permanency, that is, to tape or disc. But live and direct, most tend to be a blast and crowd pleasers. A few even shine on extended merit alone. But even in this precious space, Duane and Dickey (like nearly every other) could overdo it at times - dare I say Live At The Fillmore has a number of meandering moments in the mix ... check.
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Old 08-17-2009, 04:53 PM
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The land of comparisons await us all

having heard in person several of the aformentioned live concerts from which these comparisons are derived. I can only say that they were far better in person than they were on record.

best drum solo captured live "came from the santana drummer during soul sacrifice in woodstock" It was like being in "drumline"

great live albums
The best of all.....BB King "Blues Is KIng"/Don'tanswer the door

Allman Brothers Live at the Filmore I was there
Quick Siver Messinger Service "Happy Trails" although it too was like Cream in that it was mix and match i was at the fillmore east side
Ten years after "Undead" Live at Klooks Kleek
Band Of Gypsies I was there. The best show I ever saw
Boston Tea Party the new Disc one
LIve Dead
Mayall the turning point i was there too
The best Dead Concert was on Bootleg 2/1/70 with peter green..as the announcer said The best ****ing music in the world"
which is better its all taste

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