Songwriting Credits

[AliP]

Does anyone ever wonder why there weren't more songs that were credited to either "Stevie & Lindsey" or "Lindsey & Christine" etc. For instance, a song like Gypsy. We all know that Lindsey did alot with that song. I know that Stevie wrote it, and as she says, she brings in a "skeleton" of a song and then Lindsey will put his magic in and mold it into its final version. Shouldn't Gypsy be credited to "Lindsey & Stevie" then?

Admittedly, I know nothing about how these things work. Is it because Stevie wrote the lyrics and the simple melody so she is credited with all the songwriting credits? Then I don't understand how a song like "The Chain" is credited to all five members?? I mean, really, doesn't John come up with a bass part for every song, like he did with The Chain?? So shouldn't he be credited on every song? It just seems strange to me. But, then I don't really understand how it works, so hopefully someone can help me out.

Also, compare The Beatles. Why are Lennon & McCartney credited for every song that either one of them did (for the most part anyway, I'm not 100% sure on this.) From what I've read on The Beatles, Paul or John would write a song etc (and I'm assuming came up with the melody etc) so shouldn't only one of them be credited?

Or is it just a matter of personal choice?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by AliP

Does anyone ever wonder why there weren't more songs that were credited to either "Stevie & Lindsey" or "Lindsey & Christine" etc. For instance, a song like Gypsy. We all know that Lindsey did alot with that song. I know that Stevie wrote it, and as she says, she brings in a "skeleton" of a song and then Lindsey will put his magic in and mold it into its final version. Shouldn't Gypsy be credited to "Lindsey & Stevie" then?

Not really. Stevie wrote the lyrics and came up with the chord progression. The magic that Lindsey works is more with arranging. For example, the "Time" band did a different arrangement of "Gold Dust Woman," however, it was still properly credited to Stevie Nicks.

Originally Posted by AliP

Admittedly, I know nothing about how these things work. Is it because Stevie wrote the lyrics and the simple melody so she is credited with all the songwriting credits? Then I don't understand how a song like "The Chain" is credited to all five members?? I mean, really, doesn't John come up with a bass part for every song, like he did with The Chain?? So shouldn't he be credited on every song? It just seems strange to me. But, then I don't really understand how it works, so hopefully someone can help me out.

Everybody is credited with "The Chain" because the music came out of several sessions of improvisational jamming. Sometimes Lindsey led the jam, sometimes the others led the jam. Stevie had some lyrics that fit the final song that came out of the jams. In other words, nobody sat down and wrote the music for "The Chain," hence it made more sense to credit everybody.

Originally Posted by AliP

Also, compare The Beatles. Why are Lennon & McCartney credited for every song that either one of them did (for the most part anyway, I'm not 100% sure on this.) From what I've read on The Beatles, Paul or John would write a song etc (and I'm assuming came up with the melody etc) so shouldn't only one of them be credited?

Their manager told them to do it that way for tax reasons.

[glitter_fades]

It's up to the people working on the music to decide who is author of what. Lennon and McCartney didn't co-write a lot of their music. One or the other did a lot of songs on their own. The co-authorship was given on a lot of John and Paul tunes no matter who did what. With Stevie and Lindsey I'm sure we'll never get agreement on whether LB deserved credit for any of Steive's music. I personally believe he did deserve but never asked for it. Other's don't think so. Seeing as Stevie has so many co-authorships in her solo career, I find it hard to believe anyone else but Lindsey would have done the amount of "magic" on Stevie's songs, for nothing, as he did. Why else is all her pre-solo stuff credited only to her, but more than half her solo albums have co-credit or cover songwriters? Already ducking the flames...

Here is Stevie's most recent view of her songwriting with LB. No mention was made of her songwriting with all the other people she's co-authored with, but as far as LB is concerned, he is only a producer and that's it.

http://www.viceland.com/se/v1n7/htdocs/long.php

[AliP]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

I personally believe he did deserve but never asked for it. Other's don't think so. Seeing as Stevie has so many co-authorships in her solo career, I find it hard to believe anyone else but Lindsey would have done the amount of "magic" on Stevie's songs, for nothing, as he did. Why else is all her pre-solo stuff credited only to her, but more than half her solo albums have co-credit or cover songwriters? Already ducking the flames...

Actually, I agree with you. It was one of the reasons why I asked the question. Since she has co-credited so many other people, I don't believe that she has a problem crediting other people. So, it makes me wonder why never a co-credit for Lindsey?

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by AliP

Actually, I agree with you. It was one of the reasons why I asked the question. Since she has co-credited so many other people, I don't believe that she has a problem crediting other people. So, it makes me wonder why never a co-credit for Lindsey?

Read my edit above.

[AliP]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Not really. Stevie wrote the lyrics and came up with the chord progression. The magic that Lindsey works is more with arranging. For example, the "Time" band did a different arrangement of "Gold Dust Woman," however, it was still properly credited to Stevie Nicks.

Thanks for explaining. I never quite understood the difference. So I guess people don't get credit for arrangement?

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

It's up to the people working on the music to decide who is author of what. Lennon and McCartney didn't co-write a lot of their music. One or the other did a lot of songs on their own. The co-authorship was given on a lot of John and Paul tunes no matter who did what. With Stevie and Lindsey I'm sure we'll never get agreement on whether LB deserved credit for any of Steive's music. I personally believe he did deserve but never asked for it. Other's don't think so. Seeing as Stevie has so many co-authorships in her solo career, I find it hard to believe anyone else but Lindsey would have done the amount of "magic" on Stevie's songs, for nothing, as he did. Why else is all her pre-solo stuff credited only to her, but more than half her solo albums have co-credit or cover songwriters? Already ducking the flames...

Here is Stevie's most recent view of her songwriting with LB. No mention was made of her songwriting with all the other people she's co-authored with, but as far as LB is concerned, he is only a producer and that's it.

http://www.viceland.com/se/v1n7/htdocs/long.php

As she began relying more heavily on cowriters during her solo career, that's when it took a nose dive IMO.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by AliP

Does anyone ever wonder why there weren't more songs that were credited to either "Stevie & Lindsey" or "Lindsey & Christine" etc. For instance, a song like Gypsy. We all know that Lindsey did alot with that song. I know that Stevie wrote it, and as she says, she brings in a "skeleton" of a song and then Lindsey will put his magic in and mold it into its final version. Shouldn't Gypsy be credited to "Lindsey & Stevie" then?

Admittedly, I know nothing about how these things work. Is it because Stevie wrote the lyrics and the simple melody so she is credited with all the songwriting credits? Then I don't understand how a song like "The Chain" is credited to all five members?? I mean, really, doesn't John come up with a bass part for every song, like he did with The Chain?? So shouldn't he be credited on every song? It just seems strange to me. But, then I don't really understand how it works, so hopefully someone can help me out.

Also, compare The Beatles. Why are Lennon & McCartney credited for every song that either one of them did (for the most part anyway, I'm not 100% sure on this.) From what I've read on The Beatles, Paul or John would write a song etc (and I'm assuming came up with the melody etc) so shouldn't only one of them be credited?

Or is it just a matter of personal choice?

Well, if you've got a good contract, it's always a matter of personal choice. You can credit a song to whomever you want to. But as far as something like "Gypsy," STevie wrote the lyrics, the melody, the chord progression. She wrote the song; she gets the songwriting credit. As far as I know, everything that Lindsey did with the song was on the production end. He arranged the song, made it sound a certain way. And he does have the production credit, along with Dashut and Caillat (and, nominally, the band as a whole; again, a personal choice).

If you think about in terms of somethign like standards, it might make the distinction a little clearer. Even keeping it in the realm of Stevie, take a song like "At Last." Stevie performed/recorded it one way; Etta James recorded it very differently. But the differences are all in the arrangement and production. The song - the lyrics, the melody, the chords - were all written by Mack Gordon and Harry Warren. Now I don't think those two ever recorded a version of the song in their lives; they weren't performers, to my knowledge. So no violin or horn arrangements were ever their doing. But they wrote the song; they get the songwriting credit.

Or think of covers. Kind of the same thing as standards, really. And again keeping it in the realm of Stevie: "I Still Miss Someone." Who came up with that absolutely wretched arrangement? I don't know. I don't want to know. I don't ever want to listen to that recording again. It's completely reworked and horribly butchered. But the songwriting credit still goes to Johnny Cash, because he wrote the song, even if Stevie or Rupert Hine destroyed it.

"The Chain": Yes, John probably comes up with his own bass line for almost every FM song, but the specific bass line he comes up with is always a reflection of the chord progression and melody written by the songwriter. Except in the case of "The Chain," where he came up with the bass line on his own, and it was later worked into the song. As far as everyone being credited for songwriting on that track, it was probably just a PR decision. Stevie wrote some lyrics, John wrote bass line, Lindsey wrote a melody... hell, at this point we might as well credit Mick and Chris for their part in the jam session, right?

The Beatles: In the beginning, John and Paul did write a lot of their songs together. And when they signed their record contract, they agreed always to credit their songs "Lennon/McCartney," no matter who did most or all of the writing. So they were stuck with that legally, and they had to do it even later on, when they were clearly no longer writing songs with each other.

Does that make the whole imbroglio any more lucid, I hope?

[blinker12]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

http://www.viceland.com/se/v1n7/htdocs/long.php

Whoa, glitter_fades, thanks for posting that link. I hadn't heard of that story before. I loved it, and it's good to hear she's working on new material... could it be that the decades-old Rhiannon project will finally come to fruition?
I think I'll post the link over in the Stevie forum just so people know about it...

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Does that make the whole imbroglio any more lucid, I hope?

Even if you what you say is true about her lyrics and chords on pre-solo songs, it doesn't explain how Stevie has all these co-written songs later on. Do you think she just handed poems and lyrics over to other songwriters only then, and they did all the chords and whatever you think equals music, but this was never the case for songs she wrote before her solo career? Many of Stevie's songs, as first concieved, are so far removed from the final product that anyone can tell they are not record worthy as written. In the days before Pro Tools it was up to somebody to make them worthy of recording. If that person wanted to get paid you can bet they'd insist on credit for their music. When other people helped her with songs she gave them credit, except Lindsey. I guess we can count Frozen Love, but that's all I know of as co-credited before her solo recordings.

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by blinker12

could it be that the decades-old Rhiannon project will finally come to fruition?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

Even if you what you say is true about her lyrics and chords on pre-solo songs, it doesn't explain how Stevie has all these co-written songs later on. Do you think she just handed poems and lyrics over to other songwriters only then, and they did all the chords and whatever you think equals music, but this was never the case for songs she wrote before her solo career?

I believe what happens in the case of Stevie's co-authored songs, is basically what she explained in regards to the writing of "I Can't Wait."

Rick Nowels brought her a recording of an instrumental piece he wrote... she really liked it, and wrote lyrics to it.
She mentions the same in regards to "Desert Angel"... she listened to several instrumental demos that Mike Campbell gave her, found the one that she felt fit the sentiment she was trying to convey, and then wrote the lyrics.

If I recall, Rick Vito basically said the same thing in regards to "The Second Time"... it was a song that he was working on -- music with a few lyrics. Stevie heard it and liked it, and wrote completely new lyrics for it.

So basically, it seems that when she's the one who sat down at the piano and composed the melody, lyrics and chord progression... she gets full songwriting credit, no matter how much the producer alters it in the studio.
But when she writes lyrics to music that someone else composed, or adds significant additional lyrics, then they share the songwriting credit.

As to why she has so often (since 1983) written lyrics to music composed by someone else -- probably because she's fully aware of her limitations in that particular area, and wisely works around them the best way she can.

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I believe what happens in the case of Stevie's co-authored songs, is basically what she explained in regards to the writing of "I Can't Wait."

Yeah, didn't she say during the Wild Heart Innerview that she doesn't really sit in a room with someone & co-write. They just pass their words or their chords from one to the other in separate timespaces.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

"The Chain": Stevie wrote some lyrics, John wrote bass line, Lindsey wrote a melody... hell, at this point we might as well credit Mick and Chris for their part in the jam session, right?

Based on that old demo or whatever on the DVD-Audio, I'd have to say that Christine was more responsible than any other single person for "'The Chain."

Isn't that weird?!

[Kelly]

This is probably one of those topics that will cause some to feel they need to rush to Stevie's defense, as if she needs defending. Her abilities and talents are long established. However, I cannot understand how, with a song like Gypsy, more people do not believe that Lindsey deserves more than a production credit?! I do not hear the melody in the original demos. The piano demo has no melody, at least to my ears. To think that after 35 plus years of working together, there has never been one time that Stevie and Lindsey have worked on something in which both contributed equally is sort of ridiculous in my opinion. Especially knowing Stevie's limited abilities in the early years. Frozen Love is unique... BUT she gave him that credit because she admired the ripping guitar solo, she has said that many times. My point is, imho, Lindsey probably never asked or even expected credit, even when deserved. As for why Stevie never felt like she should credit him, well that is a can of worms.