so, lindsey or stevie? who owns this album more?

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Then again, Fleetwood Mac has never had the same level of loserdom as bands like Chicago, REO Speedwagon, and Styx

I really like "Behind the Mask" and still to this day think it's very underrated.

I agree on REO in loserdom, but, sorry, so is BTM. The current Styx yes, but not the 1996 reunion...even without John on drums. That Todd guy is a great drummer. When the band toured with Dennis in '96, it was huge like the Dance was a year later. Too bad those guys can't get along with each other like FM is doing now. Without Dennis, Styx is like FM without Lindsey. That's why they have to tour now with REO on the same bill. As for Chicago, they've never been the same since Terry Kath died. The original brass section stands tall but the new guitar players never held their own. Peter Cetera's replacement is OK. I never liked PC anyway. In the 80's he took over and went too much to the generic power ballad, but Chicago in the 70's was unmatched. I'd still go to see them today if they came around again, just for the horns. Does that make me horny?

What was the question? Oh yeah, Lindsey 40%, Stevie a very necessary 30% and John's bass rates 25%. That leaves Mick 5% for making nice nice with LB again.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I have to disagree with you and Mr. Carlin. Lindsey dominates that song, not only for the obvious reasons but because the attitude is solely his - as Stevie has repeatedly (and tiresomely) insisted.

Personally, I have to disagree with this. That was a great band song. I don't think it would have been the same had Mick and John not been going through some of the same things as Lindsey. I hear the guys playing just a little harder on that song than any other song from "Rumours."

[Cammie]

Lindsey's SYW work is brilliant!!!
Say Goodbye is adorable! We'er the losers...
we dated LB's songs by demo default! Sky

[diamondsnake]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I agree with Johnny abouot Go Your Own Way. On the studio version you can't hear her at all. Second Hand News would be a song that if someone said that was their favorite Lindsey then you'd have more of an argument of it's because of Stevie's background vocals and then still that could be untrue too.

Well, this is my favorite Lindsey song, and I am a Nicks fan all the way. Stevie's vocals make the song rock! I am sorry, I just can't see how someone can think her voice is not magic. Songs like SHN, Oh Daddy, Gold, etc. all benefit from her voice. And while these songs were recorded in the late 70's her voice was so powerful. Words can't describe it. Another song where Stevie just completely outshines Lindsey is Frozen Love. He starts out singing the song and then Stevie chimes in by echoing "You go forward!!!" in a raspy, powerful sort of way and all I can think is, Lindsey who?

But I could say ths same thing about Lindsey Guitar on Stevie's songs. Without his little guitar solo in the middle of RTTG, it would not be my favorite song on SYW. And without Lindsey crazy voice distorting thing he put on illume, I would not love the song as much. I just love when Lindsey's voice sounds all feminine and then Stevie's voice echos in a deep and raspy tone. So, he adds to her songs, like she adds to his.

And as far as whoever said Christine's songs would sound like average pop without Lindsey, I don't think so!

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by face of glass

The reason as to why I give Lindsey 50% of the credit is because of the overall conception of sound he has.

Now Fleetwood Mac is a band, I’m not going to deny that. That’s a big part of their appeal. But even so I could see Lindsey throwing Mick, John and Chris out of the instrumental picture in some of the tracks and putting on the OOTC treatments (c’mon Gerald, just complain about the drum sound yet again ).

I always thought OOTC (and "Tango" for that matter) suffered because of the electronic drums. Especially for an album that came out in 1992. I mean, who'd want to listen to an album with a drum machine when Nirvana was more than willing to kick your ass with a real drummer? For me, there's nothing better than the band all playing at their best ("Oh Well" from FM Live comes to mind). OOTC, while a great album, still falls short.

Originally Posted by face of glass

And I also think that Chris very often favoured non-intrusive keyboard tones. She never used anything harsh, she never wanted to be flashy. It wasn’t her thing and I respect her for that, BUT if it had been just her performing the songs on a keyboard I might have missed out on FM altogether.

You've obviously not heard anything Christine did before 1975. Her keyboard playing was much more, for lack of a better word, flashy compared to what she did with Lindsey. Heck, she even did a bit of flashy soloing on the "Behind The Mask" tour. And, for the record, some of my favorite Chicken Shack songs are pretty much just Christine and the rhythm section.

Originally Posted by face of glass

I don’t fall for her playing that much because it doesn’t grab me by the neck and demand my attention, it rather just sits there and waits for me to pay attention to it. Yes, maybe I’m just a callow youngster. But the reason I first latched on to “Don’t Stop” wasn’t because it’s a well-written blues shuffle, it was because of that guitar which kicks my butt out of my bed in the morning. The same goes for “YMLF”, “Oh Daddy”, “Over My Head”, etc. LB isn’t afraid of the flash in the instrumental area but he also knows the subtleties very well.

Then you're listening to the wrong Mac songs! Check out "Mr. Wonderful." Sure, it's a blues album, but Christine's playing totally stands out. Get the live recording from the tour prior to the release of "Bare Trees." Christine's keyboards not only grab, but the kick serious butt. For some reason, she almost totally quit being interesting on the keyboards when Stevie and Lindsey joined.

Originally Posted by face of glass

And I don’t think Christine’s songs are that much more devoid of Lindsey’s influence.

I don't hear much difference between Christine's songs on "Penguin" and her songs on the 1975 album. And, I think it could be argued that some of her best songs were recorded prior to Lindsey's involvement. "Get Like You Used To Be," "Mean Old World," "I'd Rather Go Blind," "Morning Rain," "Show Me A Smile," "Homeward Bound," "Spare Me A Little," "Remember Me," "Did You Ever Love Me," "Believe Me," "Why," "Heroes Are Hard To Find," "Come A Little Bit Closer," "Skies The Limit," "Save Me," "Hollywood," "I Do," and "All Over Again" were great songs that had nothing to do with Lindsey.

Originally Posted by face of glass

She was supposedly the one in the band who was the most against experimental tendencies, however, and I fear that if Lindsey wasn’t playing on her tracks I might have thought she was just another inferior version of Carole King.

This is my biggest problem with Christine, actually. She actually (per Bob Welch) could be sarcastic to the experimental. I don't think the comparison to Carol King is all that apt. In some ways, I see the similarities. However, Christine's best known as a singer/keyboardist in a rock band. Carole King was a songwriter turned singer/songwriter.

As for the comparison between the "Rumours" band and Peter Green's FM, it really doesn't work, as Peter was the only singer/guitarist who had hits prior to 1975. On the 1971 "Greatest Hits" package, 10 out of 12 songs were Peter's. So while there were two other guitarists/vocalists, it was really, in the public eye, only about one person. With the "Rumours" band, it's not so clear. Christine had the most hit singles, Lindsey had the most enduring single (GYOW), and Stevie was the star.

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

And how many times have we heard that Fleetwood Mac sucked after Lindsey left (a comment that folks like myself, chiliD, and David, will argue against until we're blue in the face).

You're damn right!

Fleetwood Mac didn't suck until after Christine left!!

[David]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Her keyboard playing was much more, for lack of a better word, flashy compared to what she did with Lindsey. .... Sure, it's a blues album, but Christine's playing totally stands out. .... Christine's keyboards not only grab, but the kick serious butt.

Uhh . . . Christine McVie, right?

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by face of glass

“Family Man” as an example here again; the lyrics stink to high heaven, yes. But he wouldn’t put those weak lyrics to a final track if he didn’t deem them appropriate.

If you sang those lyrics in an overtly serious tone then I would hate it. But put them through the voice treatments and it’s a pure pop perversion according to the fine traditions of the Beach Boys’ Love You album.

Ah, yes. Anything bad about it was deliberately bad. This is a great all-purpose excuse - not just for Lindsey, for anyone! My hair looks ratty today? Why, perhaps I intentionally made it look straggly and frizzy as a commentary on the shallow nature of today's beauty-obsessed society! Either that or I ran out of detangler.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by face of glass

And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your Own Way” their favourite Lindsey song anyway? There’s this woman in there who has pretty loud vocals. Wouldn’t that have something to do with it, along with the fact that it’s THE Lindsey song to be connected with Stevie’s drama game?

Who are these "certain Nicksfans" you are referring to, that think so highly of GYOW for those reasons? This is the first I've heard of it! Anyone who is into "drama games" would probably puff up all indignantly at GYOW, much like Stevie does, instead of gushing about her wonderful background vocal - which frankly isn't even all that prominent! Not sure where you're getting all this from, but I think you just might be in possession of a misconception, lol.

Edit: Well, OK, I see diamondsnake is one, but who else? lol

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

My opinion is this... if an artist's own fans don't feel confident enough in praising said artist's talents, without belittling the talents of someone else, then that's a pretty sad thing.
But that's just my opinion.

Ouch!

Edit: And let me add another 'ouch' to make the post go over the ten character minimum!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Ah, yes. Anything bad about it was deliberately bad. This is a great all-purpose excuse - not just for Lindsey, for anyone! My hair looks ratty today? Why, perhaps I intentionally made it look straggly and frizzy as a commentary on the shallow nature of today's beauty-obsessed society! Either that or I ran out of detangler.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I like Family Man, but it's such a cheesy, ****ty song. I think Lindsey thought it was actually good, too. How wrong he was.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by face of glass

But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.

I've gotta disagree. The emotion of a Stevie song comes from the lyrics and the performance. It's all in the way that she conveys the words she's written, not the way Lindsey noodles to them. Lindsey's guitar and the other elements form the band simply add atmosphere to the core of the song that helps better define it. I mean, with the exception of WISYA, everything Stevie has done elicits some emotion from me. I've said a million times that I don't believe all of her stuff is up to snuff, and it isn't, but that raw emotion is always there in her lyrics and her voice, no matter how bad the production or music is. You can distinguish a real artist from one who relies on others when you hear a lousy song but it still connects with you. To give anyone credit for the emotion that comes from a Stevie song is blasphemy in my eyes. It's all Stevie. The rest is just icing on the cake; the sugar, if you will.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by shackin’up

The GOS-songs just have something sparkling going on, so are stevie's on SYW, due to the tremendous interaction between the three instrumentalists.

I guess I do tend to undervalue them on the album a bit, due to the fact that Mick is pretty much doing the usual 4/4. Granted, that’s what he’s done for most of his career but with some interesting variations, up to Tusk anyway.

I don't see it. not without losing a lot of the energy.

Mick and John are the wheels and the suspension to Lindsey’s engine, so it’s like a car. The rhythm section OOTC is like one of those fast Japanese bullet trains. Too clinical for some, maybe, but it does its job.

Think of John's contributions on the whole album. Lindsey has NEVER put in such killerbasslines on solo-albums as john did this time.

John is good throughout but I think it’s curious that the one of the killers is too overshadowed by the other instrumentation. It’s “Illume” I’m talking about, of course. I think he’s very important in “Smile At You” too. With the rest I don’t think it would be a huge difference if a studio player had been used. Yes, it would lose the classic Mick & John groove but would it necessarily change the conception of the songs?

Not to mention that David, for instance, criticized the sound of bass as being too clinical on SYW. Lindsey may not take that aspect into account that much these days. There’s some great bass on “This Is The Time”, for instance, from Mitchell Froom, but once again it’s very inaudible in the overall mix.

Originally Posted by trackaghost

Ooo the Christine fans will hate that. Actually I hate that and I'm not her biggest advocate.

Sharon, when I said the whole “inferior version of Carole King” thing I spoke as a person who doesn’t regularly listen to mainstream female songwriters. I also spoke as someone who has never heard a single song from Rumours on the radio in his home country. I arrived to that album with very little preconceived notions. The first things that grabbed me were Lindsey’s guitar and Stevie’s voice. A bit later I did learn to appreciate Chris’ songwriting and playing but I think that if Lindsey and Stevie hadn’t kicked my sorry butt first, I might not have given the album another chance.

I’m very glad I learned to love Chris and her work but given my pedigree, I don’t think it would have happened if not for me paying attention to Lindsey’s work at first.

Funny how the non-Lindsey produced song Why, often tops polls of people's favourite Chris song. Just a thought.

The only poll I’ve seen it topping so far is the Legacy poll (which included all the FM songs, btw). I don’t think it’s ANY better than any other song of hers. It just has strings on it, which is a rare occasion on a Fleetwood Mac album, and it immediately seems to become a huge favourite for everyone. Hell, even “Frozen Love” could be accused of the same.

Chris wasn’t all built by Lindsey anyway. Her music is as great on Time as it’s ever been and I’m sure she’ll show LB and SN a thing or two with Meantime.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Ironically, the reason Fleetwood Mac has often been considered "uncool" by the masses, is that their sound is considered woefully mainstream, and certainly Stevie isn't the only one who would be responsible for that.

The Rumours-era Fleetwood Mac have been cited as the West Coast adult rock mafia, the soft-rock clan, inoffensive wallpaper music for the coke-addled yuppies. But what hasn’t too often been stated is that they initiated that style, and yet it was just another facet of their overall canon (so to put them solely into that box is, IMO, being short-sighted).
Lindsey Buckingham, Richard Dashut and Ken Caillat invented a new way of producing a female singer-songwriter like Stevie Nicks. If Stevie hadn’t worked with these gentlemen, she would have most likely been given the typical ‘70s production for songstresses who sang these “feminine” topics; a rudimentary acoustic guitar, a piano, a bunch of strings and that would have been it.

Messrs. B, C and D came up with a very sophisticated style relying on fine vocal harmonies, the subdued rhythm section and the sparkling guitar. I always shake my heads when I see people speaking of “Trouble” and “Soul Drifter” (for instance) as soft rock. For me it’s the same as calling Burt Bacharach’s finest ‘60s productions muzak. To me it feels like an insult, even, especially when you consider the sophistication and the arrangement details within. For me those are songs that transgress the rigid genre borders and step into the realm of classic accessibility.

Now what Stevie Nicks did was run along with that sound with less sophistication while attuning it even closer to the mainstream. It was her and Christine who were, in the public eye, the hitmakers of Fleetwood Mac, after all and that’s why they both felt it was necessary for them to follow the public illusions of what Fleetwood Mac was supposed to be; i.e. the sound of Rumours.

Stevie wasn’t with Lindsey anymore and with Lindsey she had originally established the borders of her music. She wouldn’t really try to break those when she was solo. SN is a smart businesswoman while being a honest writer as well and I respect that in her but I think she sometimes plays it too safe.

… how many of Lindsey's biggest fans, will only begrudingly admit to liking one of Stevie's songs. And, only then, because of Lindsey's contribution to said song?

Name me names. I don’t follow this pattern. I don’t think CarneVaca has stated something like that. And I haven’t seen anyone else doing it here, not even in this thread.

I’ve always thought that Lindsey needs something to work with in the first place when arranging and if that something is worthless then his contributions will possibly be worthless too. I don’t think he made “Dreams” entirely what it is but I think he interpreted Stevie’s original intentions in a way that the song could appeal to people. That’s why it was #1 in the US.

And how many times have we heard that Fleetwood Mac sucked after Lindsey left (a comment that folks like myself, chiliD, and David, will argue against until we're blue in the face)... implying that the band can't possibly be any good without Lindsey there to help them.

The critique that I’ve directed at the BTM and Time line-ups is nowhere near as harsh as the critique from most people. I’ve mainly criticized them for being closer to the soft-rock image than anything Fleetwood Mac has done with Lindsey Buckingham and that is because Lindsey wasn’t there to give the band his unique fusion of new wave and the values of classic rock (or pre-new wave, however you prefer it). And also because the band failed to take the bluesier direction that Rick Vito could have led them into.

I think they’re both good albums but I don’t find them the legendary lost masterpieces like you and the post-Rumours fanatics do. And that speaks more of my listening background, and your high appreciation for Bekka Bramlett and Billy Burnette on Time speaks more of yours.

I tend to think of it like this: if I still was a novice with no pedigree in “AOR” whatsoever and was given the entire FM catalogue since 1975 to be listened to, I would most likely take an instant liking of the albums that have significant Lindsey involvement. And hell, that’s what I was once. I listened (and I still do) to the underground noise and the rebellious outcry, the anti-thesis of everything that Fleetwood Mac was supposed to be. If BTM or Time had been my first touches with FM I might have given up on them altogether. That’s just me, anyway.

But my question is always going to be, why that has to come at the expense of the other members.

My 50-50 credit split equally between Stevie and Lindsey has never referred to bandwork. It has referred to the songwriting, the things that are appealing in the song itself, to the common listeners, without the obvious banal trappings. I don’t think Stevie has always had the skills to make her songs like that and that’s why she has needed outsiders’ help. And Lindsey Buckingham is the one I’d rather see her working with.

Lindsey and Stevie would have been successful as a duo even without Fleetwood Mac, all that the Buckingham Nicks album suffered from was poor promotion. I do think the success would have been somewhat smaller. But on Buckingham Nicks Lindsey’s production abilities are already on full display, as is Stevie’s songwriting which didn’t lose its widespread public appeal until the ‘80s, after which the roles of the producers have been even more emphasized.

My opinion is this... if an artist's own fans don't feel confident enough in praising said artist's talents, without belittling the talents of someone else, then that's a pretty sad thing.

I haven’t been belittling Stevie, I have been stating my opinion on what I find attractive in the tracks she’s on. And I think I’m not totally biased here and I think my experience can be related to the common listeners. To people without the knowledge of the historical baggage or of the soft-rock format I think Fleetwood Mac will stand out first from the pack. And that is because of Stevie Nicks’ performance skills AND Lindsey Buckingham’s playing.

I wasn’t trying to say that the band was secondary; they weren’t. But they didn’t want to stretch out or stick out in the instrumental soundscape too much, they gave that room for Lindsey (and they didn’t have the skills to do all that to Stevie’s songs). That’s why I think that whoever listens to the Rumours-era FM superficially will not necessarily find the important focus point from the rhythm section. And one needs something to focus on in order to give the music another chance. It is unfair but it’s the way the history of rock and roll has often been written; it’s the frontpersons who get the most attention, unless one starts speaking of bands who play mainly instrumentals.

Everyone else that has come to Stevie’s solo career after Lindsey has been secondary, IMO. There is much less care put in there and more of the business mentality, all because of SN’s approval, possibly.

Ad infinitum.

Originally Posted by teedee

But he is just as interested in album sales because, he did not release his solo cd that he stated if only 300,000 ppl heard , he would of been happy with that. He didnot release his solo material as he intended it to be heard, he compromised and made it a fm album, . When you stated he doesnt compromise his songs to that fm sound on his solo material, WELL LINDSEY JUST RELEASE YOUR SOLO STUFF PLEASE.

The reason he went back to recording with FM instead of continuing solo was because of the wife and kids. He gets the most money from touring while knowing that FM are in a position where they do not have to calculate the content of the album that much because the significant change in music wouldn’t necessarily result in the significant change in sales. Hence the filmmaker in the two bedroom analogy. They are in a position where they do not need to worry about the record sales that much, or at least to the extent that Stevie seems to be doing it.

wow so you must not be too much into the value of lyrics then.

I’m not. English isn’t a natural language for me, but I’ve never stated lyrics can’t have any value. I’m trying to recognize their meaning to the pieces anyway.

who did some of your mixing linds,,,, chris lord alge, (spelling?) and ootc was his best solo material, IMO

In your opinion it’s his best. And look at Chris, even his attempts at the homogeneity couldn’t save the album from being a commercial flop. Now is there something fundamentally wrong in Lindsey’s approach to music or was it just because two different target groups can’t learn to accept each other?

Originally Posted by diamondsnake

And as far as whoever said Christine's songs would sound like average pop without Lindsey, I don't think so!

Sorry Christopher, if it came off that way. But the reason why I first paid attention to Christine was because of Lindsey’s playing. I learned to value her own thing a bit later but that speaks more of my background. I’m sure other people have different experiences.

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I always thought OOTC (and "Tango" for that matter) suffered because of the electronic drums. Especially for an album that came out in 1992. I mean, who'd want to listen to an album with a drum machine when Nirvana was more than willing to kick your ass with a real drummer? For me, there's nothing better than the band all playing at their best ("Oh Well" from FM Live comes to mind). OOTC, while a great album, still falls short.

Grunge wasn’t the only thing that was going on in the early nineties. At that point it was still acceptable to have some of the ‘80s treatments in production. Lindsey wasn’t the only one to do that.

The preference of band sound over the mechanical rhythm section is a matter of taste and I’m sure it doesn’t matter to a lot of people anyway. I accept both methods with all my heart.

Out Of The Cradle doesn’t need the typical rhythm section. It’s the ‘90s version of Pet Sounds, an album that’s supposed to flourish in other spheres than the rhythmic groove. There are unusual percussive things in there, such as in “Wrong” or “This Is The Time”, which are comparable with Brian Wilson’s usage of sleigh-bells and coconut shells on his acknowledged masterpiece. Not to mention Lindsey’s guitar which is often responsible for the percussive energy. He doesn’t need Mick and John in there because he can supplant them with a different kind of energy. Note how the songs on SYW that have energy coming from the guitar in the OOTC way are “Say Goodbye” and “Red Rover” on which Mick and John aren’t playing.

*SARCASM ALERT* -> So to ChiliD, Trackaghost and Shackin-up, you can all go sulking in the corner now with your conception of authenticity and arguments of ego-trips. <- *SARCASM ALERT*

You've obviously not heard anything Christine did before 1975. Her keyboard playing was much more, for lack of a better word, flashy compared to what she did with Lindsey. Heck, she even did a bit of flashy soloing on the "Behind The Mask" tour. And, for the record, some of my favorite Chicken Shack songs are pretty much just Christine and the rhythm section.

I own Kiln House, Future Games, Bare Trees, Penguin, Mystery To Me, Heroes Are Hard To Find, Behind The Mask and Time (and PG’s FM and Then Play On). I think they’re all albums that range from good to great and have many redeeming qualities in them. Perhaps it is my problem but Christine’s playing has never stuck out to me as flashy. I think it takes some time to find out the good qualities in it, unless you have a thing for keyboards. Or at least a different background than I have.
(I have heard only very little Chicken Shack; I should educate myself better here.)

Then you're listening to the wrong Mac songs! Check out "Mr. Wonderful." Sure, it's a blues album, but Christine's playing totally stands out. Get the live recording from the tour prior to the release of "Bare Trees." Christine's keyboards not only grab, but the kick serious butt. For some reason, she almost totally quit being interesting on the keyboards when Stevie and Lindsey joined.

Uh, if I was to say my true feelings of the misguided chase for authenticity that is Mr. Wonderful I’d have swarms of Pre-Rumours fans buzzing around me.
I do agree that she has a little solo passage here and there but she doesn’t constantly kick my butt or anything.
But then again I guess some of those qualities did remain even in later stages. I think the live version of “Not That Funny” had very prominent parts from Chris, even though one could still argue that they were mainly aiming for rhythmic effect.
Your observation is interesting anyway; the only track that heavily leaned on her keys after the inclusion of Laurel and Hardy (c’mon, Nicksheads and Buckheads, that’s funny ) was “You Make Loving Fun”. I’m not going to make a case for TITN songs because I think every keyboard part in there wasn’t necessarily her doing.

I don't hear much difference between Christine's songs on "Penguin" and her songs on the 1975 album.

I’m willing to agree on this. I think the White Album was a transitional one anyway and I actually think it was recorded a bit too quickly (whereas ChiliD dislikes the later striving for perfection).

And, I think it could be argued that some of her best songs were recorded prior to Lindsey's involvement. "Get Like You Used To Be," "Mean Old World," "I'd Rather Go Blind," "Morning Rain," "Show Me A Smile," "Homeward Bound," "Spare Me A Little," "Remember Me," "Did You Ever Love Me," "Believe Me," "Why," "Heroes Are Hard To Find," "Come A Little Bit Closer," "Skies The Limit," "Save Me," "Hollywood," "I Do," and "All Over Again" were great songs that had nothing to do with Lindsey.

I agree partially and I’d also add “Behind The Mask” and “Sooner Or Later” to the list. I do think she found her true songwriting self only after Stevie and Lindsey joined (and she did have strikes at it earlier, with “Spare Me A Little” and a couple of others). Before that she was trying her hands here and there and some of her raunchier ones, “Homeward Bound”, “Believe Me” and “Just Crazy Love”, for instance, aren’t too convincing (even though they’re still good). But some could say that with Buckingham in the band Chris wasn’t given enough room to explore all her sides, and with the likes of “Butter Cookie”, “Behind The Mask” and “Sooner Or Later” they would have a good argument there.

I don't think the comparison to Carol King is all that apt. In some ways, I see the similarities. However, Christine's best known as a singer/keyboardist in a rock band. Carole King was a songwriter turned singer/songwriter.

I was mainly speaking of the influence that Carole had to Christine and many other female writers at the time. CK may not have encouraged Chris to write but I think her success, with the albums Writer, Tapestry and Music, encouraged Chris to continue doing it. I hear musical influence in there also.

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Ah, yes. Anything bad about it was deliberately bad. This is a great all-purpose excuse - not just for Lindsey, for anyone! My hair looks ratty today? Why, perhaps I intentionally made it look straggly and frizzy as a commentary on the shallow nature of today's beauty-obsessed society! Either that or I ran out of detangler.

Nancy, if my arguments on proving that there’s some worth in “Family Man” too are futile and come off like it’s MY WAY that is the only possible interpretation then give up on the following, I will lose all the level-headed reputation that I might have in your eyes.

I do think there’s some of the spirit from the Beach Boys’ Love You album in “Family Man”. Let’s have look at a particular lyric from Love You, this is from “Roller Skating Child”:

Originally written by Brian Wilson in the infamous “Brian Is Back!” period
Make sweet lovin’ ‘til the sun goes down/we’re leaving tomorrow when moma’s not around/well oh my oh gosh oh gee/she really puts chills inside of me

Go ahead, laugh at that one. I did. That’s what that album is full of. Childish lyrics and banal rhymes (not to mention the thought of the middle-aged Brian Wilson actually wanting to do all that to a teenager ). Yet I think that’s a great song. Go and download it from somewhere. It has this brilliant, naive vibe to it which I think “Family Man” has too. I can understand how some would think it’s immature and tasteless but I identify with this stuff.

I don’t know if there’s that much self-mockery going on in “Family Man” (or in the entire Love You album) but I think there is. The lyrics suck but if Lindsey sang them seriously then I’d hate the entire track. The voice treatments give it this perverted sense, it gains all the cartoonish humour of “Bwana” as a result. My understanding is that the thoughts he’s expressing in “Family Man” are the thoughts that anyone is likely to have at one point in life. No matter how one uses the $100 words or the elaborate wordgames, one is bound to hit a point where such finesse isn’t possible for a while; obviously when one is tired, for instance. I get thoughts similar to the lyrics of “Family Man” when I’m tired anyway. Later on I might start mocking those in goofy voices, just to prove myself that I’m above all that.

That’s what I think “Family Man” does, it isn’t just a description of Lindsey’s closest relationships at the time. There’s a lot of humour and self-deprecation in there and that’s why I love it.

(IMO, of course. I’m not pushing this on anyone. Maybe he just had a really bad day when he and Richard wrote the lyrics.)

Nancy, are you ready for that “SYHA” bashing now?

Not sure where you're getting all this from, but I think you just might be in possession of a misconception, lol.

Most likely I just have my head up my rear end after all this incessant typing.

Confusion over clarity. I was thinking of the live version of “GYOW” mainly, I suppose. And I guess I was just irritated by the fact that for some Nicksheads “GYOW” is the ultimate Lindsey song and everything else done after that is just being weird for weird’s sake. But don’t you think Stevie was sometimes milking the dramatic factor of “GYOW” herself? In some live performances, like in the Mirage tour video, she stretches out at the end of the final chorus and gets the final word when Lindsey is focusing on his solo.

Ok, no cohesion in this post. No homogeneity either. It’s just like SYW.

Originally Posted by trackaghost

There certainly is the implication that if you like Stevie you like the persona (meaning the lyrics, the clothes, the "drama"), whereas if you like Lindsey you appreciate "the music".

I was speaking of certain people only. I think Stevie’s music can stand outside the whole drama thing and that it isn’t too esoteric in that area. In the future the cream of her music will survive when the whole drama has faded.

Originally Posted by dissention

To give anyone credit for the emotion that comes from a Stevie song is blasphemy in my eyes. It's all Stevie. The rest is just icing on the cake; the sugar, if you will.

The core emotion is Stevie’s, yes.

But to imply that instruments can’t convey emotions, that they can’t move people and are just “icing on the cake”, is blasphemy to me. There is a lot involved in there when it’s Fleetwood Mac playing, and especially Lindsey who cares for Stevie’s songs more than anyone else in the world excluding the writer.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by face of glass

The core emotion is Stevie’s, yes.

But to imply that instruments can’t convey emotions, that they can’t move people and are just “icing on the cake”, is blasphemy to me. There is a lot involved in there when it’s Fleetwood Mac playing, and especially Lindsey who cares for Stevie’s songs more than anyone else in the world excluding the writer.

I didn't mean to imply that instruments can't convey emotion, that would be absurd. But, to me, when it comes to Stevie's material, it is icing on the cake. That's not to say that some instrumentation can't move me when it comes to her songs, it can, namely "Storms" and "Goodbye Baby". But the most dominant things in her music are the lyrics and the performance. I focus more on those things than the music, mostly because a lot of the music on her solo albums is purely awful. Honestly, if the lyrics are bad and the song is performed badly, I don't care how wonderful the guitar is.

You put it right when you said the "core." Stevie's contributions are the "core" of the song, whereas the rest of the stuff is just extra.

[teedee]

Face if glass.
I think we can name you as one who likes a stevie song based on lindseys contributions, for what you just stated with the song DREAMS.

as for him touring with the MAC for the money, as you stated before lindsey is a wealthy man and i say good for him and the rest , but i think its funny when lindsey sstated he needs to pay for a house and raise a family thats ok, but when stevie states you all have young families to raise, she is criticized for it, then in the end lindsey sees the light and agrees. hmmmmm