Who Has Given Up ??

[David]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Things are about Stevie, for instance some of us long said that the UTS intro was about her and it turns out it was. But you have to look for these connections. Sometimes it seems that non-shippers, who say they are disgusted by SNL, go as far out of their way to look for romance that’s not there than shippers do.

The thing that always drove me temperamentally away from my friend Nancy's board of relationship-centered interpretations wasn't the fiction of the relationship itself but the insistence on anywhere and everywhere reading autobiography into every lyric. It always made me think back to my college lit courses in authorial intent and Wimsatt and Beardsley's intentional fallacy, and how it's overshooting to continually assume that a songwriter's lyrics are either deeply personal or even autobiographically factual at all. There's no internal (internal to the song) evidence that "Did she make you break down?" is a second-person address to Lindsey Buckingham in the real world. Stevie might have said that it was—I don't know—but it doesn't necessarily follow that, just because we know real-world Stevie sent real-world Lindsey packing and he took it hard, the lyric itself relates that real-world reaction in any way. But the shippers and others project and project. By virtue of sheer amount, some projecting is probably actually factual. But it's the constant projecting that alienates me. Does every little phrase in a Stevie Nicks lyric that touches on passionate emotional ambivalence have to do with Lindsey? Shipper reactions are fictions about fictions. Of course, Stevie's mode of writing lends itself to such responses, and that's also why I don't think Stevie is one of the great writers: she never seems to stand back from her characters and observe them with any detachment or irony. The emotions they are experiencing are always and completely the emotions that we listeners are supposed to be connecting to with total ingenuousness. It's all very unsophisticated.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

Of course, Stevie's mode of writing lends itself to such responses, and that's also why I don't think Stevie is one of the great writers: she never seems to stand back from her characters and observe them with any detachment or irony. The emotions they are experiencing are always and completely the emotions that we listeners are supposed to be connecting to with total ingenuousness. It's all very unsophisticated.

What I love about SYLM is that he doesn't love her and Christine manages to convey that on one hand, tucking reality neatly beneath frothy romance. The song conveys two contradictory messages in my mind: what she would like to be the truth and what is the truth. I've always thought that was very clever.

Stevie ... thinking about what you wrote, I've thought that EFO does have a certain detachment. I see the protagonist as fooling herself. She exudes false bravado. She taunts. He adores her. They do it everywhere they can, every time they can get away. Get away! (much like Paul's alleged "get back" to Yoko). But none of it's true and she's really dying inside. The lyrics always gave me the impression of an outside narrator looking in, detached, shrewd, sad, witnessing someone else's delusion. But we listeners, what are we supposed to feel? Are we cheering the affair? I think yes, in a way. The pounding disco music says triumph. We dance as "the other woman" chortles. We support her. I don't know if we are necessarily supposed to be connecting to the despair.

Anne Lindbergh once described Charles feeding their daughter. He would dangle a cherry in her face and when she would look up at it, mouth ajar, he'd stick a vegetable in her mouth. I think that's what EFO does.

I mean, I don't think it's the sophisticated song you requested, but I think it conveys more than what's on the shallow surface, because it strikes me as both celebration and doom.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by michelej1

What I love about SYLM is that he doesn't love her and Christine manages to convey that on one hand, tucking reality neatly beneath frothy romance. The song conveys two contradictory messages in my mind: what she would like to be the truth and what is the truth. I've always thought that was very clever.

Stevie ... thinking about what you wrote, I've thought that EFO does have a certain detachment. I see the protagonist as fooling herself. She exudes false bravado. She taunts. He adores her. They do it everywhere they can, every time they can get away. Get away!(much like Paul's alleged "get back" to Yoko). But none of it's true and she's really dying inside. The lyrics always gave me the impression of an outside narrator looking in, detached, shrewd, sad, witnessing someone else's delusion. But we listeners, what are we supposed to feel? Are we cheering the affair? I think yes, in a way. The pounding disco music says triumph. We dance as "the other woman" chortles. We support her. I don't know if we are necessarily supposed to be connecting to the despair.

Anne Lindbergh once described Charles feeding their daughter. He would dangle a cherry in her face and when she would look up at it, mouth ajar, he'd stick a vegetable in her mouth. I think that's what EFO does.

I mean, I don't think it's the sophisticated song you requested, but I think it conveys more than what's on the shallow surface, because it strikes me as both celebration and doom.

I honestly think the second "get away" is just an aural flourish, i.e. there needs to be an additional couple of syllables at the end of the line which isn't enough to express a new thought so she repeats the "get away", like an echo. I think reading it as otherwise is over thinking it.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

I honestly think the second "get away" is just an aural flourish, i.e. there needs to be an additional couple of syllables at the end of the line which isn't enough to express a new thought so she repeats the "get away", like an echo. I think reading it as otherwise is over thinking it.

I take it as meaning both things. Every time we can get away and telling the wife to step off. I don't mind overthinking.

[Street_Dreamer]

I know in the big scope of things, my opinion really doesn't matter. I just cannot accept the current lineup. The firing of previous members of the band like Danny, Dave Walker and Bob Weston made sense given the circumstances. The other members left on their own accord including Peter, Jeremy and Bob Welch. The same holds true for Lindsey, Christine, Stevie, Rick and the short period that Billy left the band.

The circumstances surrounding Lindsey's firing doesn't sit well with me. Of all the Rumours group, he was the only one who wanted to make a new album and tour for the past several years. It would be fine if he wanted to walk away on his own terms but that obviously didn't happen. The fact that he was ousted by one member of the band wasn't right. With the recent news where the truth of his firing came out shows what cowards they all are. This was a chance for the band to properly bookend everything and end on a beautiful note. Instead we have this. It has stained and tarnished Fleetwood Mac's legacy.

Lindsey deserved better. Fans deserved better. It is so disheartening and so sad that this will be how the band ends. Sorry Peter, Bob B., Jeremy, Danny, Bob Weston, Dave W., Bob Welch, Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. You all made beautiful music and will be remembered positively for your contributions to the band and for not trying to oust anyone for your own selfish reasons.

[button-lip]

Originally Posted by Street_Dreamer

I know in the big scope of things, my opinion really doesn't matter. I just cannot accept the current lineup. The firing of previous members of the band like Danny, Dave Walker and Bob Weston made sense given the circumstances. The other members left on their own accord including Peter, Jeremy and Bob Welch. The same holds true for Lindsey, Christine, Stevie, Rick and the short period that Billy left the band.

The circumstances surrounding Lindsey's firing doesn't sit well with me. Of all the Rumours group, he was the only one who wanted to make a new album and tour for the past several years. It would be fine if he wanted to walk away on his own terms but that obviously didn't happen. The fact that he was ousted by one member of the band wasn't right. With the recent news where the truth of his firing came out shows what cowards they all are. This was a chance for the band to properly bookend everything and end on a beautiful note. Instead we have this. It has stained and tarnished Fleetwood Mac's legacy.

Lindsey deserved better. Fans deserved better. It is so disheartening and so sad that this will be how the band ends. Sorry Peter, Bob B., Jeremy, Danny, Bob Weston, Dave W., Bob Welch, Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. You all made beautiful music and will be remembered positively for your contributions to the band and for not trying to oust anyone for your own selfish reasons.

Beautifully said. Every word of it. Too bad some people here get bored easily and quit reading. That’s why they start with phrases like: “he left the band”, “he must have done something”, “he was pushing Stevie for a new album”, and other crap they can come up with.

We deserved better. At least some of us. And they didn’t care.

[fleetwoodguy79]

Originally Posted by Lola

I'm sorry you suffered through that. I didn't expect to read anything like that in response to my post. At first I thought about not responding cause I don't know what to say but that didn't feel right. All I can say is I'm so sorry bad things happened to you. Sincerely. Hugs to you.

As for LB--- I'll cont to support him whole heartedly!

Really, thank you so much for the kind words. Support from others are what is getting me through this, with also the help of a professional.

I know that it's hard to write back to things like that. So, thank you for having the courage to do so. I'd give you a hug back if I could!

Originally Posted by bwboy

Thanks for sharing, fleetwoodguy79. The power of music should never be underestimated. You will get through this.

If it's not too personal, I would love to know some of the songs that helped you during that difficult time.

Indeed. Music has changed my life for the better and I know that I'm not alone (or wrong...).

Not too personal of an ask --

The two albums that spoke to me most were "Tusk" and "Out of the Cradle". Any song that felt like healing of pain was like a warm blanket for me. I would listen to those CDs with my headphones on in bed all through the night sometimes just to try and sleep and shut off my brain. It felt like my body was the cause (even though I was 10) and as someone that young, it's terrifying to think that something is wrong with you that you can't fix and can't talk to anyone about.

On "Tusk", the songs that most helped were, "Storms", "Brown Eyes", "Honey, Hi", "Beautiful Child", and "Walk a Thin Line".

When I found Out of the Cradle, there were so many songs that helped me though it was very uncool at that time (mid-late 90s) as a kid to enjoy that kind of music. Remember, grunge was still in and hard-edge music was the thing to listen to.

"Surrender the Rain" and "Street of Dreams" were amazing songs for me. "Turn it On" also had something behind the words and melodies that helped me face the day -- I remember listening to it on repeat after a bad night on the bus the next morning.

I'll lastly share... I went to one of Lindsey's solo shows last year with my wife. I was not prepared for it.

When Lindsey started playing "Surrender the Rain", I lost it in the middle of the theater. Completely lost it. I couldn't move. Sobbing uncontrollably. It was so moving. All of those memories flooded back to me at once -- the positive ones -- about how much I had to cling to that song to live. It was a warm blanket in that moment again, too. My wife is an amazing human being for putting up with me like that.

That's the power of music. Thanks for listening, I really appreciate the support; and that's also why I'm "done".

[lovethemac1]

Originally Posted by Street_Dreamer

I know in the big scope of things, my opinion really doesn't matter. I just cannot accept the current lineup. The firing of previous members of the band like Danny, Dave Walker and Bob Weston made sense given the circumstances. The other members left on their own accord including Peter, Jeremy and Bob Welch. The same holds true for Lindsey, Christine, Stevie, Rick and the short period that Billy left the band.

The circumstances surrounding Lindsey's firing doesn't sit well with me. Of all the Rumours group, he was the only one who wanted to make a new album and tour for the past several years. It would be fine if he wanted to walk away on his own terms but that obviously didn't happen. The fact that he was ousted by one member of the band wasn't right. With the recent news where the truth of his firing came out shows what cowards they all are. This was a chance for the band to properly bookend everything and end on a beautiful note. Instead we have this. It has stained and tarnished Fleetwood Mac's legacy.

Lindsey deserved better. Fans deserved better. It is so disheartening and so sad that this will be how the band ends. Sorry Peter, Bob B., Jeremy, Danny, Bob Weston, Dave W., Bob Welch, Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. You all made beautiful music and will be remembered positively for your contributions to the band and for not trying to oust anyone for your own selfish reasons.

Beautifully written. Thank you.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Street_Dreamer

The other members left on their own accord including Peter, Jeremy and Bob Welch. The same holds true for Lindsey, Christine, Stevie, Rick and the short period that Billy left the band.

Can’t help but notice Dave Mason, Bekka, and Billy his second time in the band weren’t mentioned. They never got to tour in support of “Time” (their touring was prior to its release) because Mick disbanded Fleetwood Mac after he started working with Lindsey again. Mick took the path of least resistance to maximize his earning potential. Sound familiar?

The circumstances surrounding Lindsey's firing doesn't sit well with me. Of all the Rumours group, he was the only one who wanted to make a new album and tour for the past several years.

Seems like the last album of new material from any of them (unless you count the new Neil & Liam Finn album which featured Mick on a few songs) featured four of them and two of them toured to support it.

Let’s be honest, the problem is who doesn’t want to do another album, which might still be the case.

The fact that he was ousted by one member of the band wasn't right.

The reality is that she has all of the power because she played the game better than anyone else in the band.

[elle]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

The reality is that she has all of the power because she played the game better than anyone else in the band.

exactly!

some people are good in making music, others are good in business or marketing side of it. various people, various talents.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by Street_Dreamer

I know in the big scope of things, my opinion really doesn't matter. I just cannot accept the current lineup. The firing of previous members of the band like Danny, Dave Walker and Bob Weston made sense given the circumstances. The other members left on their own accord including Peter, Jeremy and Bob Welch. The same holds true for Lindsey, Christine, Stevie, Rick and the short period that Billy left the band.

The circumstances surrounding Lindsey's firing doesn't sit well with me. Of all the Rumours group, he was the only one who wanted to make a new album and tour for the past several years. It would be fine if he wanted to walk away on his own terms but that obviously didn't happen. The fact that he was ousted by one member of the band wasn't right. With the recent news where the truth of his firing came out shows what cowards they all are. This was a chance for the band to properly bookend everything and end on a beautiful note. Instead we have this. It has stained and tarnished Fleetwood Mac's legacy.

Lindsey deserved better. Fans deserved better. It is so disheartening and so sad that this will be how the band ends. Sorry Peter, Bob B., Jeremy, Danny, Bob Weston, Dave W., Bob Welch, Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. You all made beautiful music and will be remembered positively for your contributions to the band and for not trying to oust anyone for your own selfish reasons.

That was beautifully said. Money and HUGE egos overtook the band.

Stevie is worst thing that EVER happened to FM. Yet, for idiot Mick, the best thing. RIP, FM.

I hope history recognizes what a stupid egomaniac she is, and how she ruined the band's legacy. F**K HER.

[Macfan4life]

I don't even listen to FM on the radio anymore. If they come on, I turn the channel. I do listen to GYOW and maybe a deep cut like Warm Ways if it comes on but other than that I am even sick of hearing them.
Maybe I am no longer a fan because I don't even listen to their music anymore.


When Chris re-joined I could not wait to hear her live in concert immediately. I did not see the Unleashed tour and pretty much had given up on the band. Chris re-started my interest in the band. However, looking back it would have been better for the band to go into the studio for a year prior to touring. But we did get Buck/Vie which is such a treat.


All of our opinions matter but I get a kick out of the few who bash the band for not making new music and at the same time don't like or bash Say You Will and Buck/Vie.
Both albums ARE Fleetwood Mac. Lindsey did a fantastic job on both and I appreciate both for different reasons. If you don't like or appreciate these efforts its unlikely you would appreciate anything different just because Stevie is overdubbed into the sound.

What's the most frustrating about being a FM member is IMHO a major part of the band died after Mirage. All the famous 5 line up never created another "commercial free pressure " album since 1979's Tusk. Let me explain: After Tusk, the band felt commercial pressure to make something more radio friendly pop. While Mirage is a great album there was pressure to strip them a little of their creativity. After Mirage and the solo stuff, Tango is pretty much a Lindsey solo project and the pressure to make it commercially successful was even stronger than Mirage. The band had not created anything for half a decade and Mick was in bankruptcy. After Tango the core 5 don't reunite until the Dance where the band only toured with 3 new live songs. HUGE mistake IMHO. After the Dance Christine leaves and Say You Will was without lots of commercial pressure but it still existed but it was without one core member.
So long story short, could you imagine another "Tusk" like album from the 5 that let them be as creative as they wanted?

I think that is what frustrates me from being a fan for so long. I do like Behind the Mask because it expresses creativity that Tango never had but it also scared the band for being a flop in the USA. A Fleetwood Mac album not selling well and no major hits. But I don't care about hits, I care about the music.

[sue]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

That was beautifully said. Money and HUGE egos overtook the band.

Stevie is worst thing that EVER happened to FM. Yet, for idiot Mick, the best thing. RIP, FM.

I hope history recognizes what a stupid egomaniac she is, and how she ruined the band's legacy. F**K HER.

They are ALL stupid big egos with greed, greed, more, more money attached.
Not one of them is any better or worse than the other, well maybe Mick, she just played the game better?? and definitely to the end.

I would add that THE FM most of us know and adore are nothing without Buckingham/Nicks

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by David

The thing that always drove me temperamentally away from my friend Nancy's board of relationship-centered interpretations wasn't the fiction of the relationship itself but the insistence on anywhere and everywhere reading autobiography into every lyric. It always made me think back to my college lit courses in authorial intent and Wimsatt and Beardsley's intentional fallacy, and how it's overshooting to continually assume that a songwriter's lyrics are either deeply personal or even autobiographically factual at all. There's no internal (internal to the song) evidence that "Did she make you break down?" is a second-person address to Lindsey Buckingham in the real world. Stevie might have said that it was—I don't know—but it doesn't necessarily follow that, just because we know real-world Stevie sent real-world Lindsey packing and he took it hard, the lyric itself relates that real-world reaction in any way. But the shippers and others project and project. By virtue of sheer amount, some projecting is probably actually factual. But it's the constant projecting that alienates me. Does every little phrase in a Stevie Nicks lyric that touches on passionate emotional ambivalence have to do with Lindsey? Shipper reactions are fictions about fictions. Of course, Stevie's mode of writing lends itself to such responses, and that's also why I don't think Stevie is one of the great writers: she never seems to stand back from her characters and observe them with any detachment or irony. The emotions they are experiencing are always and completely the emotions that we listeners are supposed to be connecting to with total ingenuousness. It's all very unsophisticated.

Honestly, this is how I felt as well. It became such a turn-off to me. Further, shippers would block out any talk of Christine and even began to hate her. Later on came the nasty things that they would say about her.

When she re-joined: The "Christine destroyed the band by returning!" surfaced.

[elle]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Honestly, this is how I felt as well. It became such a turn-off to me. Further, shippers would block out any talk of Christine and even began to hate her. Later on came the nasty things that they would say about her.

When she re-joined: The "Christine destroyed the band by returning!" surfaced.

it's really the weirdest reasoning.

if they were so fragile that having all 5 together will "destroy" them, then something was very wrong in the first place.