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  #1  
Old 04-22-2016, 10:12 AM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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Default Searching For Madge - "symphonic" part

here's one that i've been thinking about every now and then for ages, and it came up again as i've just been browsing through all the older threads once more (and if it has been discussed here before, it must have escaped me):

that "orchestral" passage in "searching" (starting at 5:25 up to 6:10) still keeps me wondering. has anybody got a clue if this is an original part (recorded especially for the occasion)? or is it an excerpt from some classical work and - if so - where is it from? and who recorded it (probably not the mac themselves)?

if there's someone in the know about this, i'd be grateful if he or she would share any info and knowledge on this matter . . .
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  #2  
Old 04-26-2016, 03:19 PM
BklynBlue BklynBlue is offline
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While I would never pretend to be knowledgeable enough about “classical” music to recognize a composer’s work from a mere forty seconds of music (I probably wouldn’t recognize more than a few of the “Masters”, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, if I heard the entire symphony); but I doubt that what is heard in ‘Searching for Madge’ was lifted from an existing score.
What is it then? Excellent question, and one we will probably get a satisfactory answer to, like so many questions surrounding the “Then Play On” sessions.
In June of 1969, Green did an interview with New Musical Express where he talked of a classical composition that he wrote, (lasting all of three and a half minutes) that he would have a full orchestra record soon.
I believe that he would have needed to bring someone in to write an actual score.
It was also around this time that there was a press release about Green and Spencer collaborating on an orchestral and choral suite revolving around their shared religious beliefs.
We have no way of knowing if these projects ever got past the planning stages, but there are strings heard on the two covers that Clifford Davis did around this time, ‘Man of the World’ and ‘Before the Beginning’.
I believe that the music heard in ‘Searching for Madge’ was recorded by the musicians brought in to play on the Davis recordings.
Was the piece part of a longer work, written by Green? We unfortunately have no way of knowing.
What I wouldn’t give to have access to the Warner-Reprise vaults, with the tapes and the studio logs.
With so much material from this time frame finding its way on to the two out-take collections, “The Vaudeville Years of Fleetwood Mac” and “Show-Biz Blues” the label may have felt that a “box-set” collection of the “Then Play On” sessions would seem redundant (we of course have no way of knowing how much more there is) but it seems like lost opportunity to me.
Warner Bros. Film pioneered the burn to order DVD trade, making films with otherwise limited commercial appeal available; I can’t see why they wouldn’t mine their vast musical catalog for something similar.
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  #3  
Old 04-26-2016, 04:09 PM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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thanxalot for your thoughts on this, b.b.!
and your cd-on-demand idea is truly intriguing, for my money at least. but are we likely to ever see this working in an age where a majority of customers - and thus the music industry - is increasingly taking to virtual music media . . . as we all know too well, sadly not every good idea is to materialize, let alone be crowned by success. still, that would really be something else!
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  #4  
Old 04-26-2016, 05:17 PM
Mr Scarrott Mr Scarrott is offline
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Default Vaughan Williams?

I've always wanted to know this. This subject was discussed on this forum thread:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread....186121/page-2

and Vaughan-Williams as a suggestion for the classical interpolation sounds very plausible to me. He wrote nine symphonies- when I have a free weekend I might listen to them all to see if I can identify it (or maybe not!).

I can remember listening to the orchestra come in on Searching for Madge for the first time about 26 years ago, thinking, "crikey, what's going on here, I'm going to have to take this cassette back to Woolworths, there's some sort of fault on the tape!".

edit:

This post suggests it's Vaughan Williams' London Symphony

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=41570

Last edited by Mr Scarrott; 04-26-2016 at 05:20 PM..
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  #5  
Old 04-27-2016, 02:44 AM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott View Post
I've always wanted to know this. This subject was discussed on this forum thread:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread....186121/page-2

and Vaughan-Williams as a suggestion for the classical interpolation sounds very plausible to me. He wrote nine symphonies- when I have a free weekend I might listen to them all to see if I can identify it (or maybe not!).

I can remember listening to the orchestra come in on Searching for Madge for the first time about 26 years ago, thinking, "crikey, what's going on here, I'm going to have to take this cassette back to Woolworths, there's some sort of fault on the tape!".

edit:

This post suggests it's Vaughan Williams' London Symphony

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=41570
now this is some kind of hint, mr scarrott! sorry, i missed this thread here on the ledge. if you check this out and spot the part, please let us know about the source - would be GREATLY appreciated!

by the way: reading about your reaction on listening to "searching" for the first time i was reminded of very similar thoughts on my own. i was only 12 years old at the time and i was considering something being wrong here. although i knew "revolution 9" from the beatles "white album", which had already confused me from start to finish, somehow i doubted that this was truly intentional. boy, i was young and dumb!
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2016, 12:06 PM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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. . . well, well, well! i did treat meself to quite a number of vaughan williams' symphonies last night . . . but they mostly sounded so VERY similar to me ears! though i'm absolutely convinced now that this actually IS an excerpt of one of his symphonies (there are countless passages in this vein all over the place!), i believe it takes a real vaughan williams expert to really spot this exact 45 second snippet somewhere. i pretty much gave it up now - too confusing for me. (i only think i can rule out the "london symphony" - doesn't sound like it.)

anyway, i'm still open for the correct answer, if anybody might be able solve this riddle . . . !
(what about you, mr scarrott?)

Last edited by lazy poker; 04-28-2016 at 12:17 PM.. Reason: addition
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2016, 02:12 PM
Mr Scarrott Mr Scarrott is offline
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I'm going to have proper listen to the London Symphony later on, but just in case we're all going on a wild goose chase, I've e-mailed the Ralph Vaughan Williams society to see if someone can identify it.

Maybe then we can all sleep easy knowing that the whole thing wasn't scored and put together by John McVie


Edit:

oh, sorry Lazypoker, just spotted your comments re the London Symphony. Let's see if I get any response from the society.

I've also posted on a Classical Music Forum

http://www.talkclassical.com/43446-c...fleetwood.html

One day, we'll solve this mystery..

Last edited by Mr Scarrott; 04-28-2016 at 06:42 PM..
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2016, 05:06 AM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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. . . jolly good idea, mr scarrott, a promising move! (although the first negative answer has already dropped in there . . . )
nevertheless - let's hope for the one big enlightenment . . . !
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  #9  
Old 04-29-2016, 09:32 AM
BklynBlue BklynBlue is offline
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I too failed to hear the forty-five seconds of music in ‘Searching for Madge’ in the forty-five minutes of ‘London Symphony’ but that could be just because I missed it –
Could you say the music heard in ‘Madge’ was “influenced” by Vaughan Williams? Absolutely! You can also hear a much more obvious influence on Andrew Lloyd Weber’s “Phantom of the Opera” in the piece,
Great idea posting the query on the classical music board Mr. Scarrott –

As to thinking that there must have been something “wrong” with your record when first hearing the piece, it reminded me of my Mother’s reaction when she first heard me playing The Rolling Stones’ ‘She’s A Rainbow’. Funny how I never thought to connect the two songs before reading those comments…
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Old 04-29-2016, 02:28 PM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BklynBlue View Post
As to thinking that there must have been something “wrong” with your record when first hearing the piece, it reminded me of my Mother’s reaction when she first heard me playing The Rolling Stones’ ‘She’s A Rainbow’.
although drifting slightly off-topic with this: when i had bought the beatles' "hey jude" single and flipped it to hear "revolution", i was sure that this copy was faulty - such an absolutely distorted sound just couldn't be right . . . let alone with the beatles (what a discrepancy between those two sides of a 45!). but i finally gave in when the record dealer assured me everything to be alright. aah, the days of youth!
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2016, 07:29 PM
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sharksfan2000 sharksfan2000 is offline
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Just thinking...these days it's not uncommon to sample another artist's work in a song but I don't think that was the case in 1969. Would the band have been able to do that so easily - and would the record label have allowed it?
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Old 04-29-2016, 08:16 PM
BklynBlue BklynBlue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharksfan2000 View Post
Just thinking...these days it's not uncommon to sample another artist's work in a song but I don't think that was the case in 1969. Would the band have been able to do that so easily - and would the record label have allowed it?
I lean in the same direction - I find it hard to believe that no one, some one writing about the piece, or a representative from Williams' label, or Reprise itself, on the original vinyl or on any of the reissues, would never have credited the piece -
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Old 04-30-2016, 04:17 AM
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i agree with both of you, sharksfan and b.b. - although not crediting used classical compositions or works in pop/rock has a traditon for ages. for instance "questions" by manfred mann's earthband, which is based on the main theme of schubert's "impromptu in g flat major" - no mention of that, at least on the 45 i have. admittedly that was later on, but there's plenty more of that all over the place.
but listening to that passage again a few times, i detected that they must have tampered somewhat with this orchestral recording (whatever it is): sounds like they've incorporated some kind of sound effect there, maybe slightly superimposing something onto it - which partly created a mild disharmony (sort of), as if trying to defamiliarize this piece a bit. or is my mind starting to play tricks on me - what do you think?

Last edited by lazy poker; 04-30-2016 at 04:31 AM.. Reason: additions
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2016, 05:20 AM
Mr Scarrott Mr Scarrott is offline
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The question of acknowledgment has been one that has been lurking in the back of my mind. Vaughan Williams was composing mainly from 1910 to 1957 so at that point I would have thought that all of his music was under copyright, but even taking that into account the orchestral performance itself would have had copyright protection as well, so permission would have had to have been sought to use it... unless it really was a new commission at the time.

Lazypoker's point about Questions doesn't really arise as Mannfred Mann would have just been using the melody and as Schubert died in 1828, copyright issues wouldn't have arisen. I would have hoped that he would have acknowledged its use out of politeness, though.

I'm amused at the thought of composers turning in their graves infuriated at the thought of missing out on royalties. Think Beethoven over the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, or Saint Saëns over the desecration of his Organ Symphony (one of my faves) by If I had words (which is not)

Last edited by Mr Scarrott; 04-30-2016 at 05:27 AM..
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Old 04-30-2016, 05:32 AM
Mr Scarrott Mr Scarrott is offline
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We could try e-mailing Jeremy via his website, but I'm loath to bother him with something that he wasn't really involved with. It wouldn't be very polite. He drops by every so often, so we'll see. If I ever meet Mick again, this will be my question but somehow I doubt that he'll remember...
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