Time

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by becca

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

To add to the drama, Michelle was fired from the group soon after the success of their first album because she was ****ing around with The Byrd's Gene Clark. They did a few shows and started recording a new album with her replacement , Jill Gibson, their producer Lou Adler's girlfriend. They even had an album cover mocked up with Jill in it. Michelle begged her way back into the group. The resulting album has vocals with both Michelle and Jill. And Cass got busted for bringing pot to the UK, and their shows there were cancelled. She died, while on a solo tour in London in the same apartment Keith Moon died in years later.

Two years later, after they had all gone their separate ways, each of them was sued for a million dollars because they walked away from their record contract while owing the company one more album. They had to regroup one more time to avoid the law suit. What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

Do you know about the Monterey International Pop Festival box set from 1992? Their entire set, with a cameo from Scott McKenzie, is on it. You can find them on eBay.



ETA: Here's the set-list

Straight Shooter
Got a Feelin'
California Dreamin'
I Call Your Name
Monday, Monday
San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)
Dancing in the Street

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Do you know about the Monterey International Pop Festival box set from 1992? Their entire set, with a cameo from Scott McKenzie, is on it. You can find them on eBay.



ETA: Here's the set-list

Straight Shooter
Got a Feelin'
California Dreamin'
I Call Your Name
Monday, Monday
San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)
Dancing in the Street

Thanks! I fully aware of it. I have several copies of it, including a rare original poster from the event. They also performed Somebody Groovy. A few years ago a DVD set was released, featuring the Festival movie, as well as amazing outtake performances and interviews. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to transport themselves back to a the height of the flower power era.

It was only recorded for the documentary of the Festival. ( John and Michelle were on the board of directors.) This was in the latter part of their career. Busy working the Festival, they didn't have time to rehearse for the show, even though they were the headliners featured to close the 3 day event.

Denny flew in from Canada at the last moment before they appeared on stage. To make matter worse, Jimi Hendrix performed prior to them, and the stage was left in a mess. There were technical problems, including Michelle's mike being faulty. And it wasn't their normal touring band,which consisted of the much lauded/in demand Wrecking Crew.

They went on to do a few more live shows before disbanding. But they sadly admitted that this was their worst performance. How ironic that it is their only performance ever recorded. They prided themselves for being able to reasonably replicate their record performances live on stage, despite all the studio overdubs.

Lots of bands from their era have archives/bootleg live shows. But the Mamas & Papas weren't a heavy road band (they have their fill of that in their struggling folk days). They did a few short, small show stint tours in big markets over a two year span -1966-1967.

But there is no evidence of these shows anywhere, other than a few news clips/reviews. It would be a like finding the holey grail if a recording one of their shows when they were at their peak surfaced. There is almost no documentation - not even of their set lists. It's very frustrating for fans.

[becca]

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did in studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by becca

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did i TVn studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

What TV show Cass and Dave were on? Was it live or lip-synced? I can't recall ever seeing it.

I discovered the two versions of Didn't Want to Have to Do It years ago. Thank you for the offer though! I could never place the time frame they were recorded.

Her duet, Darling Companion, with John Stewart was a performance on her first TV special, which also featured Joni Mitchel,Mary Travis (of Peter,Paul and...),and others. A DVD of the show was released a few years ago. She made one more TV special that hasn't been released. Hopefully it will see the light of day.

By the time the Mamas and Papas became successful, they were individually road weary from touring in their various folk groups. Their records and TV appearances were keeping them in the public eye. Their entire existence lasted only three years but produced four albums. Their tours consisted of series of short stints of five or six shows in major markets. Cass was quoted,saying they that worked really hard to sound much like their records when they performed live.

Of course they couldn't exactly replicate the craftsmanship of their studio records, musically or vocally, in a live performance, but it's reasonable to think they could still sound good. The messy Monterey Pop performances reveals a glimmer of evidence to that notion ( despite no rehearsals and Michelle's faulty mike). Their issue wasn't about the quality of their live performances. It was because they really weren't much of touring band. And much like Fleetwood Mac, their group dynamic was fraught with tension.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by becca

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did in studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

What TV show Cass and Dave were on? Was it live or lip-synced? I can't recall ever seeing it.

I discovered the two versions of Didn't Want to Have to Do It years ago. Thank you for the offer though! I could never place the time frame they were recorded.

Her duet, Darling Companion, with John Stewart was a performance on her first TV special, which also featured Joni Mitchel,Mary Travis (of Peter,Paul and...),and others. A DVD of the show was released a few years ago. She made one more TV special that hasn't been released. Hopefully it will see the light of day.

By the time the Mamas and Papas became successful, they were individually road weary from touring in their various folk groups. Their records and TV appearances were keeping them in the public eye. Their entire existence lasted only three years but produced four albums. Their tours consisted of series of short stints of five or six shows in major markets. Cass was quoted,saying they that worked really hard to sound much like their records when they performed live.

Of course they couldn't exactly replicate the craftsmanship of their studio records, musically or vocally, in a live performance, but it's reasonable to think they could still sound good. The messy Monterey Pop performances reveals a glimmer of evidence to that notion ( despite no rehearsals and Michelle's faulty mike). Their issue wasn't about the quality of their live performances. It was because they really weren't much of touring band. And much like Fleetwood Mac, their group dynamic was fraught with tension.

[becca]

Here she is with Sebastian, I don't know the one with John Stewart



Didn't Want To Have To Do It is late 1964/early 1965 according to the studio guy with the master tapes.

There was also a tv special early on with the M & Ps doing all Rogers & Hart material or something along those lines, and also a Barry McGuire show before that where they are mainly backup singers for him. It would sure be nice to see all these things collected up for DVD but there's a much more recent Andy Kaufman special I've been waiting for to see on DVD that for some reason never has been, usually some legal b.s. behind the scenes prevents things from happening.

I believe Dave & Cass appeared together on The Tonight Show and The Andy Williams Show. There was an appearance of John Denver with Bill & Taffy on something similar, and later on one with Cass too (Midnight Special). It was probably an A&E biography on Cass that included these clips, don't think anyone has done one on Dave Mason.

[moon]

And now I'm writing here because I finally listened to this strange album...

Hi! During this quarantine time I've been searching for other FM albums that were really unknown for me, like Kiln House, Behind The Mask and this one too. And I liked it! Of course it can't be compared with our most favourite albums, but I think it's good.
It's hard to know how start with this, uffff...
It was a strange line-up. I can't understand the mix of musicians, but the result was...yeah, good, I guess.

- Christine's work was simply amazing. After listening to the Buckingham-McVie album, I'm still impressed with some things that sound very similar in both albums (am I crazy?). And she took perfectly the fact of the Compact Disc and the chance to put longer songs in one album. Sooner Or Later is the best example, and I think it's her best song. I Do and Nights In Estoril are other really really great jobs (And don't tell me that Hollywood does not sound like a Buckingham/McVie song!).

- The Mason/Bramlett/Burnette work is good. Talkin' To My Heart, Blow By Blow, I Wonder Why sound really great!! And I Got It In For You is woooah an amazing song!!
I'm really convinced that Billy would have a better fate with the band if the times -errrr- where he played were not times where FM was not important at all, and other bands and styles were sounding better. Maybe the same with Bekka and Rick, because Dave...you know, he had a story with Traffic so maybe this FM experience wouldn't steal some reputation...

- These Strange Times. I love the song. I love the fact that Fleetwood speaks, his daughter and Bekka did backing vocals, he plays (really??) the guitar, and of course, that it's a long song, a good way to close. I like long songs as the closing moments for an album. And, in a time where bands like Era, Enya and others were playing a lot with backing vocals, I find the voices of Lucy and Bekka with this style of sound.

That's all I guess!


Mark.

[SteveMacD]

I just skimmed the liner notes again and saw Neale Heywood mentioned.

This album gets weirder every time I look at it.

[Turn It On]

I've always found Lindsey to be the most bizarre addition to Time. What was it he did, again? Backing vocals on Nothing Without You? Yeah, weird.

I also find it funny how everyone conveniently forgets about Lindsey's contributions to Time, BTM and The Chain Boxset whenever they talk about his time away from the band.

[Mr Scarrott]

Originally Posted by Turn It On

I've always found Lindsey to be the most bizarre addition to Time. What was it he did, again? Backing vocals on Nothing Without You? Yeah, weird.

He's credited as being on Nothing Without You but I can barely make him out on that track. The odd thing is that I swear I can hear his voice on Winds of Change too. If it's not Lindsey, I don't know who it is. I asked Richard Dashut- no response though.

Lindsey's Hitchcockian blink-and-you-miss-it vocal backing on Paper Doll enhances the song, but only just. It's not the greatest, is it?

[Turn It On]

Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott

He's credited as being on Nothing Without You but I can barely make him out on that track. The odd thing is that I swear I can hear his voice on Winds of Change too. If it's not Lindsey, I don't know who it is. I asked Richard Dashut- no response though.

Lindsey's Hitchcockian blink-and-you-miss-it vocal backing on Paper Doll enhances the song, but only just. It's not the greatest, is it?

I'm actually a big fan of Paper Doll, although I concede that it's not exactly going to be winning any awards anytime soon. I've always loved Lindsey's guitar on Behind the Mask as well, it makes it a far superior song than it otherwise would've been.

[Murrow]

Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott

He's credited as being on Nothing Without You but I can barely make him out on that track. The odd thing is that I swear I can hear his voice on Winds of Change too. If it's not Lindsey, I don't know who it is. I asked Richard Dashut- no response though.

Lindsey's Hitchcockian blink-and-you-miss-it vocal backing on Paper Doll enhances the song, but only just. It's not the greatest, is it?

Cr\ikey! Didn't know he was on it!

[Mr Scarrott]

Originally Posted by Murrow

Cr\ikey! Didn't know he was on it!

His overdubs are very subtle- listen out for him singing/whispering "else" at 0:57 and 2:51. I didn't notice him until somebody else pointed it out.

I can't agree with Turn it on re Behind the Mask though. By a long stretch, I think that mysterious song is the most deserving of being in the band's canon from that album. I like Lindsey's contribution but it seems a bit phoned-in, weedy, almost. I wonder if he's playing the bit of acoustic-sounding guitar at the end- it's very Lindsey-esque.

The hypnotic Make me a mask I do like very much, however. Too bad that it's A Fleetwood Mac song in name only. It's a pity he didn't appear on Heart of Stone or Love Shines, though.

[WatchChain]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

To add to the drama, Michelle was fired from the group soon after the success of their first album because she was ****ing around with The Byrd's Gene Clark. They did a few shows and started recording a new album with her replacement , Jill Gibson, their producer Lou Adler's girlfriend. They even had an album cover mocked up with Jill in it. Michelle begged her way back into the group. The resulting album has vocals with both Michelle and Jill. And Cass got busted for bringing pot to the UK, and their shows there were cancelled. She died, while on a solo tour in London in the same apartment Keith Moon died in years later.

Two years later, after they had all gone their separate ways, each of them was sued for a million dollars because they walked away from their record contract while owing the company one more album. They had to regroup one more time to avoid the law suit. What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

PenguinHead, do you know anything about Mama Cass' connection to Voytek Frykowski and Abigail Folger, who were victims of The Manson Family at Sharon Tate's house? I heard that Cass had a boyfriend who was basically using her for the money and he had connections to Sharon Tate and her friends. Supposedly, Cass also lived in Benedict or Laurel Canyon.