Storms - Dennis Wilson

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by michelej1

He said there was no Christine holding him back on that one!

I'd never heard that quote before.

By the way, I can only imagine what John McVie may have said to Lindsey when he was telling John what notes to play.

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by Gailh

it sounds like he wanted the brand name but not the others "interfering" with his masterpieces.
Gail

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better.

[Gailh]

Originally Posted by macfan 57

I'd never heard that quote before.

By the way, I can only imagine what John McVie may have said to Lindsey when he was telling John what notes to play.

something like *@&$ off!

I hadn't heard that quote before either but it's what we all suspected - that Lindsey thought Christine was "holding him back". Wicked, wicked Tea Lady.


Gail

[Jessica]

Did Bob Welch also think Christine was "holding him back?" In one of his Q&As here, he basically said she was musically unadventurous (if talented) and turned up her nose at anything he tried to do that was less mainstream. I took it with a grain of salt, because he came off as really bitter, but it makes you wonder. She was obviously the one who had the best idea of what would appeal to the broadest range of people, though, given the popularity of her songs.

Christine was always more about the music and playing. Stevie has always sold an image to go along with her songs. I mean, you don't dress like that to sing "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" or something. While I think she is a great songwriter (not a producer or arranger, obviously) and had the right voice to go with her music, I don't think she would've been as big without the image she cultivated. Her looks didn't hurt, either. The scary thing is that I don't think she planned it in the beginning. It just worked for her and she's played it up ever since. Christine did not need an image to sell her songs, but she could've been bigger than she was, had she been into that.

I think Lindsey has always believed he was more talented than either of them and that he was largely responsible for their success, which is why it ate at him that Stevie was so popular as a solo artist. Hence his "lounge act" remark. He is a talented producer, arranger and guitar player. But, most of his best songs were on Say You Will, IMO. The lyrics always seemed like an afterthought on many of of his earlier songs. Stevie's solo success and the fact that Christine made 2 great solo records and co-produced both indicates to me that they made their own success. Fleetwood Mac was great during their lineup because the combination of the 5 people was so good, not that Lindsey didn't play an important part as a producer in creating the sound.

[TrueFaith77]

For me, the proof is in the pudding. Along with the shimmering diamond of "Gypsy," the raison d’être of 80s Mac is in the degree of collaboration between Christine and Lindsey. Lindsey should know that.

[Gailh]

Originally Posted by Jessica

Did Bob Welch also think Christine was "holding him back?" In one of his Q&As here, he basically said she was musically unadventurous (if talented) and turned up her nose at anything he tried to do that was less mainstream. I took it with a grain of salt, because he came off as really bitter, but it makes you wonder. She was obviously the one who had the best idea of what would appeal to the broadest range of people, though, given the popularity of her songs.

Christine was always more about the music and playing. Stevie has always sold an image to go along with her songs. I mean, you don't dress like that to sing "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" or something. While I think she is a great songwriter (not a producer or arranger, obviously) and had the right voice to go with her music, I don't think she would've been as big without the image she cultivated. Her looks didn't hurt, either. The scary thing is that I don't think she planned it in the beginning. It just worked for her and she's played it up ever since. Christine did not need an image to sell her songs, but she could've been bigger than she was, had she been into that.

I think Lindsey has always believed he was more talented than either of them and that he was largely responsible for their success, which is why it ate at him that Stevie was so popular as a solo artist. Hence his "lounge act" remark. He is a talented producer, arranger and guitar player. But, most of his best songs were on Say You Will, IMO. The lyrics always seemed like an afterthought on many of of his earlier songs. Stevie's solo success and the fact that Christine made 2 great solo records and co-produced both indicates to me that they made their own success. Fleetwood Mac was great during their lineup because the combination of the 5 people was so good, not that Lindsey didn't play an important part as a producer in creating the sound.

Very interesting comments.

I think it is true to say that Christine is somewhat conservative in her musical tastes and that's where Lindsey was good for her I think to push her a little farther than she wanted to go. Christine was good for Lindsey by curbing some of his excesses. I do believe, however, that Lindsey appreciated Christine's talent although he didn't always show it! I think some of his comments after her leaving proove that he misses her, at least musically, because he knows what she brings to the band's sound.

As for Bob Welsh I think he did sound bitter in that Q&A which is not to say that he had not been on the receiving end of some of Ms McVie's sarcastic remarks. I don't think she is "backward in coming forward" as we say in England. Somebody asked him quite recently if he'd like to record with her again and he said he would but he "didn't think Christine liked him very much"

I agree that Lindsey has grown as a songwriter and I like his SYW stuff a lot except for Murrow and Come which are too long for my taste.

for me the appeal of FM was always the diversity - everyone brought something different to the mix and somehow it worked. the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. Which is why it annoys me when Lindsey talks like it was all his doing.

Anyway it doesn't look like we'll get another FM album because Stevie wont make on "in this lifetime" without Christine because "they tried it once and it didn't work".

Gail

[Jessica]

Originally Posted by Gailh

Anyway it doesn't look like we'll get another FM album because Stevie wont make on "in this lifetime" without Christine because "they tried it once and it didn't work".

Gail

It's funny that she says that. I rather liked the album and thought it worked just fine. I missed Christine's sound on it, definitely. As has been said many times, it was really like a 2nd Buckingham Nicks album with the FM rhythm section. It didn't sound much like what I think of Fleetwood Mac, but, then again, they hadn't recorded a studio album with both S and L since TITN, which had a very '80s sound. I'll say it again. Too bad C won't just record with them. They've managed to do OK touring without her, but her contributions are missed on the record. From what she said, she seemed to enjoy the creative process in the studio and she loves how she sounds with S and L. Guess it's just more pressure than she needs or wants.

[michelej1]

To quote him exactly about "What Makes You Think You're the One" Lindsey said he and Mick were alone in the studio that night. The sound of Mick on the snare drums was so explosive when they played it back that Mick "got off on it" and became an animal. Lindsey said, "And it was just two-piece. There was no Christine or anybody putting any constraints on what could or couldn’t be done. That has to rate as one of my top-five moments with the band."

From Mick's book, Mick said Lindsey said, "I've done it all arranged, produced, played guitar, sang. I just can't hack it and do it all anymore." Then, according to Mick, Christine sharply questioned this comment because because Lindsey had been suggesting in the press that he was the one responsible for translating Christine and Stevie's music to the world. Which is ironic, because Christine herself has actually said that Lindsey did that.

She said, "I don't tell Lindsey, for example, 'I want you to play such-and-such kind of guitar, that lick,' That's why Lindsey has got the additional production credit on the album-he's been largely responsible for helping to bring across on the record the atmosphere that I want to come over on a song that I write." And in the same interview: "I don't really imagine anybody else being able to do what he does with my songs."

And about her Lindsey said, "She and I have a real valid kind of rapport between us, something that was there before we even met. It's like she can play the piano and I can play the guitar just wonderfully along with her. It's almost like parallel lines during our formative years of music until we met, and it gave us a lot of common ground."

I think Lindsey's songwriting has always been exemplary, at least starting with Rumours, but starting with Miranda and continuing to Under the Skin, I think he is showing more strength and consistency as a lyricist than he ever had before. Music wasn't really his problem, imo. The lyrics were.

Michele

[Gailh]

Originally Posted by michelej1

From Mick's book, Mick said Lindsey said, "I've done it all arranged, produced, played guitar, sang. I just can't hack it and do it all anymore." Then, according to Mick, Christine sharply questioned this comment because because Lindsey had been suggesting in the press that he was the one responsible for translating Christine and Stevie's music to the world. Which is ironic, because Christine herself has actually said that Lindsey did that.

She said, "I don't tell Lindsey, for example, 'I want you to play such-and-such kind of guitar, that lick,' That's why Lindsey has got the additional production credit on the album-he's been largely responsible for helping to bring across on the record the atmosphere that I want to come over on a song that I write."

Michele

I don't think anyone is questioning Lindsey's great contribution to the band and of course he contributed to the sound that FM made. If I were Christine I wouldn't tell him what type of guitar to add to a song which makes it more ironic that he felt he could tell John exactly what notes to play on Tusk.

I just don't think that he "did it all" except maybe on his songs on Tusk where he did literally "do it all" and here is a quote from Christine on that subject "I don't think that some of Lindsey's drumming is the best that could be desired, but he needed to get that off his chest, and he did it" so she may be impressed with his guitar work but not his drumming.

On Tusk he certainly did have the lion's share of the production work but I doubt if the others felt they had any choice in the matter.

Gail

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by Gailh

for me the appeal of FM was always the diversity - everyone brought something different to the mix and somehow it worked. the whole was greater than the sum of its parts.

I Agree. In my opinion, that's why the White Album & Rumours were so popular, both with critics & record buyers. They were true BAND albums. They had input from everyone in the band.

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by Gailh

On Tusk he certainly did have the lion's share of the production work but I doubt if the others felt they had any choice in the matter.

Gail

That's true, but Chris & Stevie's songs were band songs. It was only Lindsey's songs that were separate from the rest on Tusk. I'll bet that Chris had a hand in the production on both her & Stevie's songs.

[michelej1]

Listen, if it seems like he does, Lindsey shouldn't be hogging all of the credit for FM's success. But it's ridiculous to act like he didn't have the production "lion's share" in the group when everyone has acknowledged that he did, especially Christine. I mean whether she was happy with him and complimenting him or mad at him and complaining about him (like saying that after only being produced by Lindsey for so many years it was like a breath of fresh air to be with Patrick Leonard), she always acknowledges him as being the one steering the band's sound, for better or for worse.

which makes it more ironic that he felt he could tell John exactly what notes to play on Tusk.

Oh, I doubt that he did tell John exactly what notes to play on Tusk. Carol Ann's description really contradicts what Mick, John, and Lindsey have said about John's interraction with Lindsey. I don't think Lindsey had/has a lot of control over John. Although John has said it was tough getting anything done in the studio without Lindsey there, I think he was pretty territorial over his bass playing and didn't let anyone push him around.

Lindsey has acknowledged in interviews (and Mick also said that Lindsey has in Mick's book) that he was selfish where Tusk was concerned. And he tried to remedy that by being a team player with Mirage and Tango.

so she may be impressed with his guitar work but not his drumming.

I don't think it's Lindsey's guitar work that impressed Christine. He didn't get a production credit from the band for playing the guitar.

She said other than not having a #1 song of her own, her other regret about Fleetwood Mac was Lindsey leaving: "In many ways he defined what people now recognize as Fleetwood Mac’s sound. And which was missing from our last album Behind The Mask. Not that I’m criticizing the guys we got in to replace him: Rick Vito and Billy Burnette. They’re both fine musicians. But I do regret that Lindsey’s gone. There was a creative chemistry there which, when it was right, was absolutely amazing. Our individual approaches to music were so different, but there was this point where they met that was quite magical. To find that quality with other musicians is very difficult. It’s a once in a lifetime thing."

Lindsey's not oblivious to that chemistry himself. Christine said she would tell him when his work was "caca" and he was good about changing it and he said, "There's an exquisite sense of checks and balances in Fleetwood Mac and that's one of the things that makes the band work. Everybody's always checking each other out to a certain degree, not only in choosing the material but on every level of our creativity. Maybe that contributes to the albums taking as long as they do. It's not the most efficient way to so things But it does seem effective in the end."

As far as Christine working on Stevie's songs, I've never heard her say she has. She talks more about Lindsey's work on Stevie's songs. She has spoken about working in collaboration on Lindsey's songs, not only The Chain and the ones they co-wrote for Tango, but Eyes of the World too. I don't think I've ever heard her say anything about World Turning. I remember Stevie said she was jealous when they wrote it and she came in and saw Chris and Lindsey singing it together.

Anyway, I definitely think Lindsey needs an outside ear on his songs, be it Christine, Keith, Ken or Richard. I don't think he has enough objectivity to know when they need work.

Michele

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

i wish christine would dragged him by his hair down her driveway!! lol

hahahahaha

[Gailh]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But it's ridiculous to act like he didn't have the production "lion's share" in the group when everyone has acknowledged that he did, especially Christine.
Michele

I didn't day he didn't have the lion's share of the production, especially on Tusk - what I am saying is that he didn't "do it all". that implies that the others, especially Christine, were just sitting around going "yes Lindsey, no Lindsey, three bags full Lindsey". I for one cannot imagine Ms McVie acting like that.

On Tusk he certainly had something to get off his chest but it didn't make for a "band album".

Gail

[michelej1]

Well, I'd agree that the production on Lindsey's songs didn't make for a band album. But I think Tusk overall is representative of the band if you figure in Stevie and Christine's songs too. And I also think they go together a little bit. For instance, I think the drums on Honey Hi figure in with the tribal sound on Tusk, the single. I think there's a complementary thing going on there.

When people say that SYW is just 2 solo albums smashed together, I don't get that feeling from Tusk. It doesn't seem like all the songs are separated. Also, I guess the concert footage after-the-fact influences my view, because even though The Ledge wasn't shared, when you see them doing it in concert, it feels just as shared as Second Hand News was, because of the harmonies.

As for "doing it all" I just don't get that that's what Lindsey was saying. To me he was saying he was having to do so many different things, not that he was the only one doing anything in the band and he was just carrying the weight of everyone else.

As for Christine, well, yeah I don't guess she played Simon Says with him. I mean, last time out she did describe her, John and Mick as a bed on which Lindsey could roll around and do whatever he wanted.

But with her being a musician and songwriter, there's no way he could treat her like he did Stevie. Also, Christine was classically trained and Lindsey doesn't read music and I think Christine has said she focuses on musical instruments and he focuses on computer experimentation -- probably because he might not have as good a background with -- I don't know . . . I think he said he only knows a few chords.

He said that Christine comes in with the scenes already set for her songs. They have a structure and frame that doesn't change, because she already knows what she wants, as opposed to Stevie, where it's so loose that you can create your own structure within her songs, as long as you don't change their words and emotional content, because Stevie has an acute awareness of exactly what she wants there.

But yes, I definitely think that each band member has shortcomings that the other balances out. Not only with the musical ability of Christine and Lindsey, but also the way the 3 of them approach lyrics too and temperament.

One of my favorite reviews is from the Us Festival where the guy notes that while Christine is crooning sweetly, Lindsey is screaming like a wolf. I mean, that balance, that contrast, is what epitomizes the band for me.

Michele