Contemporary '60s influences on Peter Green

[sharksfan2000]

Maybe this has been discussed here before, but I couldn't find anything. Any opinions on which contemporary musicians might have been the strongest influences on Peter Green in the late '60s? It's easy to find his references to his blues heroes, but I'm thinking more along the lines of some of the emerging blues-rock musicians from that period. I'm trying to figure out in my mind the catalysts that pushed Peter in new directions during this time.

Peter has often mentioned Eric Clapton as a big influence on him. I'd be surprised if Jimi Hendrix didn't have some effect on Peter - I believe you can hear that on some of Peter's work in '69 & '70 - but I'm not sure he was a major influence. I've read that Mac's gigs with the Grateful Dead led Peter to explore the extended jams that show up in both studio and live recordings around the same time. What about Mike Bloomfield and others? Any specific songs that suggest particular musical influences?

[chiliD]

I would think considering the improvisational aspect, Duane Allman and the entire Allman Bros Band, like the Grateful Dead, would've been an influence. The difference in the live shows from when Fleetwood Mac first toured the US (and playing on the same bill as both the ABB & the GD) and when they came back a year later...the extended "Rattlesnake Shake/Madges/Underway", the extended "Green Manalishi" performances, show some influence from those other bands.

I know Peter influenced others...Jimi Hendrix's "Pali Gap" is, in a way, his version of "Albatross". Of course there's the Beatles admitting to "borrowing" Albatross to create "Sun King". Listen to ZZ Top's "Blue Jean Blues" or anything from their first couple of albums, Billy Gibbons REALLY has the Peter Green blues tone.

Wasn't Peter in the Bluesbreakers at the time John Mayall did that recording with the Butterfield Blues Band (w/ Mike Bloomfield & Elvin Bishop on guitars)

[BklynBlue]

Great question.
I wish I had a better answer but I don't really think Green had any "noticeable" contemporary influences that you would be able to hear.
A little bit of Clapton during his early days with the Bluesbreakers, but I think that was more at the urging of Mike Vernon and maybe a little from Mayall -
Listening to "Looking Back" and "So Many Roads", it's hard to square those with the person who recorded "The Supernatural" or "Out of Reach".

I always thought that "Curly" sounded like a Jeff Beck number.

In terms of playing, it seems to me that Green really looked back to the older players, especially B. B. King and to a lesser degree, Freddie King, Otis Rush and Buddy Guy. You have to remember also, they were his contemporaries. B.B. had the longest career up until that time but the others were only recording five or six years longer than Green.

I really can't see Green being all that impressed with Hendrix. If he thought that Clapton had drifted too far from his blues roots with Cream, what would he make of Hendrix?
You can hear some faint echos of "Purple Haze" in "Curly" and more clearly the influence of "Red House" on the second version of "Fast Talking Woman Blues" on the "Show-Biz Blues" compilation.

I think the person that held the biggest sway with Green until late '69 - '70 was Duster Bennett. I think Green admired his dedication to the blues format in spite of it's lack of commercial appeal.
They performed many of the same songs, drawing from the same well. I think in Bennett, Green saw a kindred spirit.

Anyway, that's my two cents - your mileage may vary -

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Wasn't Peter in the Bluesbreakers at the time John Mayall did that recording with the Butterfield Blues Band (w/ Mike Bloomfield & Elvin Bishop on guitars)

I might be wrong on this, but I believe that Paul Butterfield was the only member of his band who recorded with the Bluesbreakers at that session in late '66. Butterfield also sat in with Fleetwood Mac for a few numbers at the June '68 Carousel Ballroom show (and maybe at other shows as well?). But Peter surely would have heard the Butterfield Blues Band's albums, even if he might not have played with Mike Bloomfield or Elvin Bishop. I don't really hear much of a connection between Bloomfield's playing and Peter's, but maybe someone else might.

Good point about the Allman Brothers Band - I forgot about them but they could very well have been an influence on the more improvisational style of '69 & '70. You're right on about Billy Gibbons too, and I know he's stated that Peter was one of his big influences.

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

Great question.
I wish I had a better answer but I don't really think Green had any "noticeable" contemporary influences that you would be able to hear.

Yes, I also find it hard to point to specific influences outside of the more obvious blues players. But the influences must have existed...

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

In terms of playing, it seems to me that Green really looked back to the older players, especially B. B. King and to a lesser degree, Freddie King, Otis Rush and Buddy Guy. You have to remember also, they were his contemporaries. B.B. had the longest career up until that time but the others were only recording five or six years longer than Green.

Good point, and one I certainly thought about. But I'm sure you'll agree that his looking to BB King (or Duster Bennett) can't explain how he got from "Long Grey Mare" in late '67 for the first Mac album to "Rattlesnake Shake / Underway" on the April '70 BBC session, for example. "Underway" always seemed to me to have a bit of Hendrix influence in there somewhere, although I'm sure not everyone will agree on that.

[dansven]

Didn't Peter also listen to African and "Tribe" music at the time? He once said something about "Heavy Heart" being sort of tribe music.

And I seem to remember that he intended to join a band of African musicians (can't remember the name of the group) after he left FM. I read it in the biography.

I also think he was influenced by Santanas music - that sort of rythms and percussion.

Daniel

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by dansven

I also think he was influenced by Santanas music - that sort of rythms and percussion.

Other way around...Peter influenced Santana. Just recently (since his comeback) during an interview, he was asked about the song "The Supernatural". He said something to the effect, "...yeah, that's what started it all, you can blame ME for Carlos Santana...".

[BklynBlue]

Although it was most likely Peter Bardens who did the arrangements, and it is safe to say that Santana never heard the Peter B's recording, listen to their cover of Booker T. & the MGs' "Soul Dressing" on the "Show-Biz Blues" compilation.
A comparison with the original is instructive. Though hewing closely to the original’s arrangement, The Peter B’s have beefed up the sound; bringing the percussion forward in the mix, and using a fuller guitar sound and a warmer organ tone. As with "Outrage", they have picked up the tempo, emphasizing the Latin/jazz rhythms, and neatly anticipating the sound of Santana’s cover of Willie Bobo’s “Evil Ways” on the first, self-titled album.
You can also hear echos of "The Supernatural" in Quicksilver Messenger Service's (yes, it's from my record collection, not my Dad's)"Fresh Air". The irony, of course, is that most reviewers refer to those similarities as "Santanaesque"!

Does anyone know when Green first started joining "Rattlesnake Shake" with "Underway"? Was it after the release of Santana's cover of "Black Magic Woman/Gypsy Queen"?

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

You can also hear echos of "The Supernatural" in Quicksilver Messenger Service's (yes, it's from my record collection, not my Dad's)"Fresh Air". The irony, of course, is that most reviewers refer to those similarities as "Santanaesque"!

BklynBlue, you nailed another of my favorite late '60s guitarists, John Cipollina. A style you could never mistake for anyone else.

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

Does anyone know when Green first started joining "Rattlesnake Shake" with "Underway"? Was it after the release of Santana's cover of "Black Magic Woman/Gypsy Queen"?

Good question - combining "Rattlesnake Shake" and "Underway" in the live shows began sometime in the fall of '69. I'll have to check some of the recordings from that period to see if I can be more precise on that. Santana's cover of "Black Magic Woman/Gypsy Queen" didn't come out until well after that, in November 1970.

While we're getting into Peter Green's influence on other guitarists in the late '60s / early '70s, does anyone else feel that the two-part construction of "Oh Well" was a major influence of Eric Clapton's "Layla"? Always seemed that way to me.

[dansven]

Good Question about Rattlesnake Shake / Underway. I've always wondered how he thought of mixing the two. Santana's Black Magic Woman / Gypsy Queen is a good suggestion. It is obvious that Peter inspired Carlos, but I know that Peter was impressed by Santana's mix of samba rythms and use of heavy percussion.

Peter was obviously into the "part 1 and 2" concept very early. They thought of releasing the Need Your Love So Bad single as part 1 and 2. But Oh Well, of course, is two very different parts, while NYLSB would be splitting the whole (7-8 min) song on two sides.

Peter also listened to classical music at the end of his time with FM. He was very fond of Ralph Vaughan Williams (and maybe also Igor Stravinsky). Though I am not sure if it can classify as "contemporary musicians", as you started out with, sharkfan2000

[chiliD]

A good 1/3 of Then Play On was kind of a "snip & cut" pastiche, after hearing the complete takes of "the Madges" & "Underway" from the Vaudeville Years set. I wonder if "Rattlesnake Shake" into "Underway" (with Madge thrown in between) wasn't something that was done from the start, well before the recording process even began.

Only the first couple of minutes of "Underway" is what we hear on TPO, but the entire take goes into areas that come close to being "Madge" or bits of "Rattlesnake Shake".

Originally posted by BklynBlue
Although it was most likely Peter Bardens who did the arrangements, and it is safe to say that Santana never heard the Peter B's recording, listen to their cover of Booker T. & the MGs' "Soul Dressing" on the "Show-Biz Blues" compilation

Listen to "Soul Dressing" & "In The Skies" back to back...they're almost the same song. (and then just for laughs, listen to the chord progression of Sade's "Smooth Operator"...more of the same!)

Originally posted by sharksfan2000
While we're getting into Peter Green's influence on other guitarists in the late '60s / early '70s, does anyone else feel that the two-part construction of "Oh Well" was a major influence of Eric Clapton's "Layla"? Always seemed that way to me.

That'd be a damn fine question to ask Eric sometime! BUT, in Eric's case, he only wrote the first part of the song...drummer Jim Gordon wrote (AND played piano on) the end part...it was a totally separate song. Eric & Bobby Whitlock had to basically "twist his arm" to get him to let them use that part for the end of "Layla".

I also find it interesting that Peter wrote & recorded what became "Oh Well, Part 2" FIRST, then tacked Part 1 onto the beginnng, rather than the other way around. The funny thing is, after I read that, I worked up an arrangement of "Oh Well" with my band at the time where we'd play Part 2 first then go into Part 1...I thought it came off pretty well.

[dansven]

Wow, do you have recordings of it, chiliD?
I think I have to try I out myself with my band too