The Ledge

Go Back   The Ledge > Main Forums > Peter Green
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Make the Ads Go Away! Click here.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 08-17-2009, 05:26 PM
doodyhead's Avatar
doodyhead doodyhead is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lake Worth FL,Pine Bush,NY
Posts: 598
Default By the way, Thanks for the article...very cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by dansven View Post
Hi folks!

I promised a looooooooong time ago to post an old NME article where Peter mentioned the Green-Kirwan intrumental album that never materialized. (Remember, Sharksfan? )
The article was called "Why Peter Green wants to give away his money".

I have several articles and interviews from 1968-70, and I'd gladly post more, but it takes time because I am no computer Einstein and the limit for pictures is 100 kb. So I have to split them up...

So this is rather caveman-ish, but I hope you folks enjoy!

Daniel
we will be very patient and appreciative
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-17-2009, 07:57 PM
slipkid's Avatar
slipkid slipkid is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 545
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
Yeah well he was in a power trio at the time, and in such configurations the drummer is expected to carry extra weight to add to the mix and fill things out a bit better. I always felt he pulled the task off well. I like your anointed ones though - not a weak one in the crop. But there are a lot of other talented stick men too, starting with Baker's ultimate replacement in the Slowhand sphere, Jim Gordon (albeit rotting in a Cali prison now for killing his mama).

Yeah, Jim Gordon was good as well. I know Baker had to pull extra weight for being in a power trio, but so did Moon (three musicians), and Mitchell. That's especially true for Keith Moon, and John Entwistle, who had to fill in where Pete Townshend did not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
But even in this precious space, Duane and Dickey (like nearly every other) could overdo it at times - dare I say Live At The Fillmore has a number of meandering moments in the mix ... check.
You're going to get a response from chiliD for that one! (I stated this in earlier posts on this thread)
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-17-2009, 08:29 PM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default Doodydog

Quote:
Originally Posted by doodyhead View Post
The land of comparisons await us all

having heard in person several of the aformentioned live concerts from which these comparisons are derived. I can only say that they were far better in person than they were on record.
Doody knowz, as he was immersed in those heady days. You know, the only place that could top the west coast circuit [LA + SF ] back then was NYC, your playpen. So for that reason all I can say is YOU LUCKY DOG. To have attended the ABB Fillmore series back when Duane was being captured for posterity gives you distinct bragging rights. And to find out you witnessed the "three John" Turning Point recording with Mark-Almond in the first person brings a tear to my eyes. A happy tear all the same. wow

Overlooked Happy Trails from '69 indeed ... you know you date back when Duncan & Cipollina are on your radar. Have one over on you though, saw QMS coupled with the Mac at the Swing with Valente at the helm. Who knew it would turn out to be a freak - but historical - event thanks to one disappearing dude named Spencer. Only wish I could recall more details of it all instead of just drabs of bits and pieces. Everything becomes such a blur and haze over time, more so when you're tagged a bit. Same thing with so many other concerts all those years ago.

Saw TYA more times than I can count (Alvin Lee was always a great live act), the Stones with Taylor (but never with Jones - and even once with a little known Texas band as the opening act called ZZ Top doing their latest ditty "La Grange"), the Moody Blues when Pinder was working that magical mellotron of his and Hayward was soaring (but never when the Denny Laine fronted 'em, much to my regret), Chuck Berry + Bo Diddley on their big reunion tour (circa '70 or whenever it was), IABD a handful of times both with Hal Wagenet and later Bill Gregory on lead guitar (Gregory doubling up with Tom Fowler of Zappa-fame on the bass), Lightfoot with Red Shea + Terry Clements, Steve Miller when Boz Scaggs was still aboard, Bob Welch both solo and in FM, Bread with Gates and Griffen, Camel with Bardens + Latimer, Canned Heat when the Bear and Blind Owl hooted (+Vestine on lead axe), Cat Stevens before the ME transformation, the Beckmeister, Mandel, Tull in their prime, The Rascals, Dave Mason with the late Jimmy Krueger, EC and FM too many times to count ... on and on wanks da little monkey.

Ah those were the days my friend (remember that old serenade our folks used to play, and now we're living? ). The best part was it was all relatively CHEAP in the crazy hazy days of yesteryear. Sometimes as little as 3 or 5 bucks! Could I be dreaming? Fat chance.

Last edited by snoot; 08-17-2009 at 08:45 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-17-2009, 08:44 PM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipkid View Post
You're going to get a response from chiliD for that one! (I stated this in earlier posts on this thread)
Ha. Well all I can say is you've got one up on chiliD then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doodyhead View Post
By the way, Thanks for the article...very cool
Let me echo Vinnie in a shout out to the OP. Nice share there Daniel -- plus an additional one to Sharky for nipping at your heels to see it through.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-18-2009, 10:45 AM
dansven dansven is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
Let me echo Vinnie in a shout out to the OP. Nice share there Daniel -- plus an additional one to Sharky for nipping at your heels to see it through.
You're welcome folks!
It's fascinating to see this thread turn into a discussion about classic live albums.
Cool!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-20-2009, 01:53 AM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default More thoughts #1

slipkid: From the live recordings that exist after "Munich", Peter Green was playing his very best.

Pete was hit n miss by this point mate. When he was on, he was on. However he was flying way too high way too often, and often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band. Eventually it came to a head.

slipkid: Another reason to stick it out for another six months: Kiln House (with Peter Green).

I have my sincere doubts about this eventuality, more so if you're alluding to Kiln House by name (and thus implicit binding). Little chance there would have been any such thing with PG in the lineup, at least as I see it. That was a Spencer-Kirwan initiative all the way. I doubt that kind of retro revisitation would never have gone over well with guns a-blazin' Green. Beyond that, it was but a slice of a larger pie back then --50's retro was all the rage circa 1970. To cite but one example, it was around that time that R&R pioneers like Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley were resurfacing and once again making something of a splash. Sha Na Na (Who who who?) did their unheard-of thing at Woodstock just before Hendrix took the stage and further lit the nostalgia spark.

Kiln House was simply one of the better projects cut of that cloth at that time (and my personal favorite). Danny worked well with Jeremy on his solo effort that had only recently been brought under wraps, and the two seemed to just keep truckin' all the way to that country estate known as Kiln House - that is, once Pete quit the game.

dansven: Yes, I am not that familiar with the Allman brothers album, but imo Mac's Tea Party beats both the Who and Stones.

Well you better get to it, as you ain't getting any younger (just like the rest of us). If you haven't experienced ABB by this point, you're in for a treat. I'd suggest Decade Of Hits for a quick teaser if nothing else. Live At The Fillmore is another classic of course -- but then, aren't all those early ABB albums up to Brothers And Sisters? One of the truly GREAT live acts, then and now, and a lot of that has to do with Gregg at the helm. They remind me of the lesser know Three Man Army of the Gurvitz Bros in that they were a great live outfit, and as the TMA name suggests, it emanates from a distinct three point attack - in the case of ABB, Gregg, Duane and Dickey in equal parts.

Note to slipkid: Check out TMA's history if you haven't yet. They're associated, directly or indirectly, with everyone from Graeme Edge of the Moody Blues to Buddy Miles, Carmine Appice and Tony Newman. Ultimately Adrain and Paul would team up with - you guessed it - Ginger Baker. It was at that point that Three Man Army became the Baker Gurvitz Army.

dansven: I have a live bootleg with the Kiln House line-up (can't remember the date), and Danny actually did "Like It This Way" alone. And although he did a fine job, it's still quite sad. Because the absence of Peter is so evident on that song, where there should have been two duelling guitars.

Well put.

sharky: I've only heard it from that one date, so maybe they quickly figured out that it didn't work without both Danny and Peter. Considering how crucial their guitar interplay was to that song, I'm surprised Danny even attempted it without Peter.

I'd bet it could be covered under one word: transition. They were caught in a "out with the old, in with the new" flux. Only how do you break new ground all the while letting go of that precious green tether that had always been the chief driving force behind all that constituted the Mac? Lots of strange experiments were played out during this interim period; you're only looking at a tiny slice of it all in citing such things.

chiliD: Everything else pales in comparison to the Allman Bros Live At The Fillmore East. Long been touted as the best live album ever released, bar none.

Bar none? That's a pretty tall order if you ask me. Why don't we just settle on :: its a GREAT live performance, and apropos of one of the best live rock acts ever in ABB, the world's first and foremost Southern Guitar Army.

chiliD: Live At Leeds, as originally released with only 5 tracks, is pathetic...it wasn't until they reissued the expanded version on CD that it's true "worth" finally appears, too little, too late.

I always thought the original was a nice teaser but a tad short. And it's true - the expanded set is just so much nicer.

chiliD: Ten Years After's Recorded Live is definitely in the Top 5 of all-time live albums.

Nice call. "Yeehaw" to paraphrase the guy on the point (only he was Brit and not Texas tea as cited)
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-20-2009, 02:16 AM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default More thoughts #2

chiliD: I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?"

"Found a way to stay..."? You mean stay = in the game? In the driver's seat? In the band? Fat chance. Peter's cup had filleth and overflown already. In your dreams, sure -- if only "if's" didn't count of course. But then you invariably wake up and realize wishful thinking is just that and little more. It's sad but true that all of life's regrets spin around "ifs'. Besides, it's those bumps and turns that make up the signature continuum of Fleetwood Mac, which only adds to the band's mystique and ongoing appeal. And in some ways, freshness.

slipkid: This is sacrilege I know, but Derek Trucks, and Warren Haynes are doing the '69-'71 Allmans today in the 2.0 version, and I love it! In fact I saw the Allmans in '89, and many say that Haynes doing Duane Allman, with a sober Dickey Betts maybe one of the best line-ups ever.

I'll second that in so far as Haynes (like Derek) has done a helluva job coming aboard to fill rather large boots in the latter day ABB. And we all know a clean Dickey is a better Dickey indeed. [Why oh why did he choose to file that bloody lawsuit and f*ck things up for good?]

slipkid: What scared Peter Green was that the entire summer of 1970 was supposed to be another four month U.S. tour, and he didn't want to do it. If he had the stamina to pull it off, I could almost guarantee, that we would've never had that self titled album with the witch from CA, and that other album called Rumours. They were THAT close to greatness.

Another "if only" pipe dream. Read His Cup Filleth And Ran Over from above.

BTW FM '75 and Rumours -IS- greatness. You don't seriously doubt that, do you? Beyond that, well .... that's another story ... and then some.

slipkid: Yeah, Jim Gordon was good as well. I know Baker had to pull extra weight for being in a power trio, but so did Moon (three musicians), and Mitchell. That's especially true for Keith Moon, and John Entwistle, who had to fill in where Pete Townshend did not.

Gordon was a drummer's drummer, with a deft touch that left many of his contemporaries in awe. That includes many of the great session men of the day, to include notables like Hal Blaine. Aces for Keith Moon too, with his more driving style. But another widely admired to this day.

dino: IMHO, Spencer's parody stuff doesn't translate to record. But pick..all of Peter's songs and the best Danny stuff and it would have been a huge record.

You're right about Jeremy and those frequent translation misses, but when he shifts just a tad closer to the genuine thing - a la Blood On The Floor or This Is The Rock - you quickly emerge upon fresher ground. KH is full of hints of promising JS paths, beyond its overtly nostalgic framing.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-20-2009, 02:14 PM
dansven dansven is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
slipkid: From the live recordings that exist after "Munich", Peter Green was playing his very best.

Pete was hit n miss by this point mate. When he was on, he was on. However he was flying way too high way too often, and often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band. Eventually it came to a head.
I strongly disagree with the description of Peter after the "Munich" incident, Snoot. All the live bootlegs from his last days with Mac are fantastic, and shows an incredibly gifted and innovative musician. This is also heard on "The End Of The Game". If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up. However great, they weren't always that tight. And they needed to work on their vocals as a trio (especially Chris, ahem...). But still, they were great! But you know my opinion, Snoot? And let's not get into all that now...

Anyway, what I think is interesting is the so called "Munich incident"... I don't really think it ever was one!!! Oh, I know what's been said and told by Peter, Mick, Jeremy, Dinky, and especially John McVie. Of course I believe they visited the Germans, and I've seen the girl ... and she was GORGEOUS!!! And yeah, they probably took drugs, but that's no sensation.
What I don't believe is that the Germans were after Peter, that they brainwashed him, that they spiked him with superstrong acid. And that this particular incident left Peter "changed" or "destroyed", and led to him deciding to leave the band and all the mental issues later.


I don't think him leaving had any direct connection with taking drugs or any illness.
Snoot says that Peter was "often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band". Yes, that may be quite true. His guitar style changed/expanded radically the last months. And so did his taste in musical genres.

Then it was the thing about money ... having too much, while Africa was starving. The feeling of being different from the average man and woman. Wishing to share the money, but not having the rest of the band with him. The need to start over again, without the false showbiz crap.

So, I believe the two main things that led to Peter leaving Fleetwood Mac was:
1. Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!
2. Guilt!


The "Munich incident" is a myth, and people love myths. It's a way to explain what isn't understood. And it's a way for John McVie and many others to explain the sad truth that Peter left the band and became ill.

So folks, what are your opinions and feelings about "Munich"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
dansven: Yes, I am not that familiar with the Allman brothers album, but imo Mac's Tea Party beats both the Who and Stones.

Well you better get to it, as you ain't getting any younger (just like the rest of us). If you haven't experienced ABB by this point, you're in for a treat. I'd suggest Decade Of Hits for a quick teaser if nothing else. Live At The Fillmore is another classic of course -- but then, aren't all those early ABB albums up to Brothers And Sisters? One of the truly GREAT live acts, then and now, and a lot of that has to do with Gregg at the helm. They remind me of the lesser know Three Man Army of the Gurvitz Bros in that they were a great live outfit, and as the TMA name suggests, it emanates from a distinct three point attack - in the case of ABB, Gregg, Duane and Dickey in equal parts.
I will, I will! I'll let you know soon!

Last edited by dansven; 08-20-2009 at 03:32 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-20-2009, 03:36 PM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default Let's rumble

This is reminiscent of what I just posted in the Rumours section [yes I actually wormed my way in there for some misguided reason] under the post Genre of Rock? -- in that one shoe (answer) does not fit all (everything).

dansven: I strongly disagree with the description of Peter after the "Munich" incident, Snoot.

I'm not referring specifically to the Munich affair Daniel, as I have never believed that alone accounts for Green's wigging out, and eventual quitting of the game. Could it have contributed to it? Sure, but to what extent I'm not sure any of us will ever know definitively. Only I'll lay down my last dollar in stating it wasn't the entire reason - just as you believe. If you go back and read earlier posts of mine, you will see I've stated the same thing all along.

dansven: All the live bootlegs from his last days with Mac are fantastic, and shows an incredibly gifted and innovative musician. This is also heard on "The End Of The Game". If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up.

Part of this contention and even confusion stems from misinterpretations - or lack of specifics - in the descriptions we all use. When I say hit n miss, I'm above all else referring to his mental state, more than his playing state. Now as in the past.

As for the young Germans being after Peter with intentions to brainwash etc, that's pure bunk. Only an imbecile would believe that that house visit alone spun Peter 180 degrees. You only have to follow the trail up to that point to glimpse the fuller picture. To what extent Munich pushed the whole thing over the top is anyone's guess - but IMO what happened to PG was inevitable with or without Munich, as it was a long time coming. Like I said earlier, his cup filleth and ran over. Excessive drug use can do that. And sometimes that's all it takes and the damage is done for good.

dansven: I don't think him leaving had any direct connection with taking drugs or any illness.

I think these factors did play into his quitting the band, and the scene in general. Again to what extent versus even further factors - to include pressure, fatigue, burnout, guilt, altruism, mental decline - is anyone's guess. But they are part of the equation. This all makes for engaging conversation if nothing else, in that we all love mazes.

dansven: Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!

Not so sure, unless he was more messed up in his head than is already generally accepted. He and Danny in particular were blazing new and fertile ground, they were moving further away from their original blues rock core, and already had an additional project in the works. Not sure why he would have felt compelled to align with strangers for backing when he had aces in the hand. To me it smacks of him further losing his bearings - and/or his mind.

dansven: The "Munich incident" is a myth, and people love myths.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a myth outright, but I too feel it is overblown and exaggerated to cover for the excesses that predate it. How much it really made a difference in the end is not easy to determine, due to conflicting reports and assessments from those nearer the scene (and who may have had vested interests for seeing it one way or another). But there's always more to practically every story than what first meets the eye, especially a rather simplistic "easy out' one like the Munich incident.

dansven: If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up. However great, they weren't always that tight. And they needed to work on their vocals as a trio (especially Chris, ahem...). But still, they were great!

Well this may surprise you my friend, but I agree. But we also have to keep in mind the band was in a state of flux, and attempting to find a new, lesser green identity (in as much as that was possible). When any outfit loses its founder and guiding hand in the way they did Peter, it is jarring to say the least. There was a time back then many doubted the Mac could carry on, including the surviving members of the band. It was all touch and go there for a while; that should come as no surprise.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-20-2009, 03:46 PM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default Ps

Quote:
Originally Posted by dansven View Post
I will, I will! I'll let you know soon!
Try ABB's Decade Of Hits -- that one compilation alone will tell you whether you are a newfound believer. It is an ideal starting point. And yes, report back after doing so. Inquiring minds would love to know your take.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 08-20-2009, 04:20 PM
dansven dansven is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
I'm not referring specifically to the Munich affair Daniel, as I have never believed that alone accounts for Green's wigging out, and eventual quitting of the game.
Ok, sorry I got it wrong there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
Part of this contention and even confusion stems from misinterpretations - or lack of specifics - in the descriptions we all use. When I say hit n miss, I'm above all else referring to his mental state, more than his playing state. Now as in the past.
... and I got you wrong again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
...but IMO what happened to PG was inevitable with or without Munich, as it was a long time coming.
Yes, I totally agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoot View Post
dansven: Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!

Not so sure, unless he was more messed up in his head than is already generally accepted. He and Danny in particular were blazing new and fertile ground, they were moving further away from their original blues rock core, and already had an additional project in the works.
I wasn't thinking of Danny here. As you say, Danny was really creative and expanding at that time (however, in a different direction than Peter). And the two had plans for the instrumental album. Peter once said that Danny was the only other creative member of the group at that time. I was rather thinking about the other members.. who I think didn't have the will or ability to follow Peter.
So Peter set Danny's songs and output highly.
If there ever was an issue with Peter and Danny, I'd say that perhaps their personalities didn't match all that well at the end.

Thanks for the great comments, Snoot!
I would love to go on, but must go to bed now.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 08-20-2009, 05:31 PM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default

Well first off a good number of Greenies on the forum are based in Europe and have the handicap of interacting in a second, non-native language. It amazes me you fellas do as well as you do. In that regard you kick our Yankee butts. And believe me, that's a well deserved compliment.

Beyond that, it's so easy to slip (to paraphrase one Lowell George) when it comes to miscommunications, and this having little to do with second languages exclusively. Ever hear that great song Words by Jim Krueger when he was with the Dave Mason Band? Says so much in that regard.

D: Peter once said that Danny was the only other creative member of the group at that time. I was rather thinking about the other members.. who I think didn't have the will or ability to follow Peter.

I think Jeremy was mostly confused with where things were ultimately going, and where he stood in the band after Danny arrived, you know, the whole three guitar front thing. He also doubted his own star power once Peter had left the scene. It's understandable really, as they had long been flying confidently under a Green flag up until those seismic shifts toward the end. Jeremy was also looking for things that he clearly wasn't finding in the rock world to which he was attached. That too was long in coming. But that withstanding, to look beyond the FM personnel - the aces in hand of Kirwan and Spencer, of McVie and Fleetwood - is telling indeed. That's tough company to top as I see it. So I'm not sure just what it was Green was seeking - and I'm not sure if Pete himself knew what it was either. All I know is that EVERYONES' heads in the group were pretty much in a full spin by the end of the PGFM era. So I've never been surprised by the subsequent fallout.

As for everything else you stated above, I pretty much would nod in agreement. I think your assessments align in large part with my own. The shame in the end is that there was never a TPO II, and that Danny - like his sometimes mentor + sometimes competitor in Green - found his way out of the game prematurely. It is a tragedy of the first order for us who appreciated all that encompassed PGFM. The only mixed feelings I have beyond that remain bittersweet to this day, in that without the burnout of Peter we wouldn't have had the Spencer and Kirwan led affairs (which I thoroughly dig), and if it weren't sadly for their subsequent burnout we might not have had those great Welch led projects, with Christine blossoming and coming more to the fore (and those great licks by Bob Weston). And of course if we didn't have the eventual - but by this point somewhat predictable - burnout of Welch, we wouldn't have had a taste of Buckingham-Nicks, a west coast sound that was equally fresh and compelling in its own sunny way, especially early on (before the comedic-tragic and MOR elements took greater sway). {YMMV of course}

Last edited by snoot; 08-20-2009 at 05:39 PM.. Reason: Forgot to add the Westy contro
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-20-2009, 09:17 PM
slipkid's Avatar
slipkid slipkid is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 545
Default Ramblin' Pony

Here's my take on Peter Green, and "Munich". After reading Green's bio, and watching the MotW documentary, you have several sources of information about that night. Not one of them enjoyed themselves, except Peter. That leads me to believe, that "Munich" wasn't the moment Peter lost it, it was the moment the rest of the band realized Peter had changed.

Go back to the "Man of the World" single in 1969. "Well just I wish I had never been born." Peter swears up and down this was not to be taken literally, but who else writes a lyric that dark unless something is behind it? This song was written around 'Albatross', and the heady days of Chess studios, and Otis Spann's solo album. Peter was still intense, in your face Peter Green. Advance eleven months later, "The Green Manalishi" was penned. If they were playing it live on their U.S. tour in Jan. 1970, this had to have been written in late '69. That has to be one of the eeriest songs ever produced (Judas Priest removed the character from the song).

Then there's that TV interview from Detroit 12/69. Peter comes off either high, or painfully shy. This was the same guy who used to verbally abuse Mike Vernon in the studio, and verbally abuse his band mates onstage. On the Early Years video, there's some home movie footage during the Manalishi segment with Kirwan, McVie, and Green in a car. Green makes this face for the camera, then it pans to McVie who rolls his eyes in disgust. I always wondered about that, probably nothing.


Anyway, I see Green's decline as gradual, with Munich the final nail as a career change for Green, not a complete physical, and mental breakdown which came a few years later. I think the drugs forced Peter to retire from music altogether a year or so later. I think had he not done drugs Peter would've continued to guest spot on blues albums. I also think he would've accepted John Mayall's invitation back into the Bluesbreakers in 1971.

The what-ifs are fun to speculate, that's what these forums are for. I think if Peter Green didn't feel stifled by FM, stayed away from drugs, was able to iron out personality clashes with Danny Kirwan (he would've been the first, since new, and established members hated him by August 1972), and eventually allowed Christine McVie into the band, FM would've been very very interesting. Not taking away anything from the "pop" incarnation, but FM should've been, and remained a rock band.


Here's a picture of the "mysterious woman" who "hi-jacked" Peter Green in Munich. Her name is Uschi Obermaier.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg uschi.jpg (2.7 KB, 21 views)

Last edited by slipkid; 08-21-2009 at 09:17 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-21-2009, 04:56 PM
snoot snoot is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 263
Default More ramblin'

slipkid: I also think he would've accepted John Mayall's invitation back into the Bluesbreakers in 1971.

Never really gave this possibility much thought. Are you referring to Mayall's Back To The Roots project? That was towards the end of 1970 IIRC. Past that, Harvey Mandel, Jerry McGee and Freddy Robinson were doing most of the guitar licks for the Bluesbreakers in the early 70's. Are you saying Green was given a specific offer by Mayall? Wonder if he would have had dubs over McGee in the short lived trio Mayall formed right after the Roots release (of Mayall-McGee-Taylor).

slipkid: The what-ifs are fun to speculate, that's what these forums are for.

Well I'll give you that. After all, cyber sounding boards are erected to give those with similar interests a platform to share their thoughts, to include conjecture and wishful thinking to their heart's content. Only around these parts, seems 'mum's the word' is ascendent more than anything else. 'cept for the Rhiannon board *arg*

slipkid: I think if Peter Green didn't feel stifled by FM, stayed away from drugs, was able to iron out personality clashes with Danny Kirwan (he would've been the first, since new, and established members hated him by August 1972), and eventually allowed Christine McVie into the band, FM would've been very very interesting.

The "stifled" part had as much to do with the other members wondering just where PG ultimately wanted to lead them off to, as they weren't exactly in agreement with his sky-high jam visions, and other like initiatives off the beaten track. Free form to the max would have spelled the death of Fleetwood Mac, don't kid yourself. Just as it did for psychedelia at large once that wave started to roll down the abstract-to-the-max path of excess. One listen to The End of the Game proves any trepidation on the part of the others was well founded. Outside of a few inspired -but fleeting - jam-o-rama moments (too much Hendrix and not enough Kirwan blending for my tastes), Green's newfangled thrust had little to offer or sustain the rest of the Mac membership, let alone their hard-earned fan base. Add to it the altruistic push Green was insisting on and you had a nicely framed recipe for disaster, whether viewed short or long term. In any case, I'm glad Peter got that out of his system, but I'd take Then Play On -- or Kiln House and beyond -- in its place any day.

Also not sure if Danny would have lost it like he did if Peter hadn't first. Chew on that speculation for a bit.

slipkid: Not taking away anything from the "pop" incarnation, but FM should've been, and remained a rock band.

Says the old guard, comprised of dedicated rockers, greasers and blues beatniks. I would agree though. Looking back retrospectively it's an easy choice, especially after all those MOR releases. But circa 1975, I thought the group's new west coast sound was kinda refreshing, even if I couldn't believe Welch hung up his Mac guns for good. Apparently a lot of others thought so also, to include a healthy percentage from the post PGFM ranks.

You know it's like Ian Anderson lamented all those years ago: Friggen greasers are too old to rock 'n' roll but too young to die! Ain't it the truth.

PS. I would have uschied with Uschi -- gladly.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 08-21-2009, 05:15 PM
slipkid's Avatar
slipkid slipkid is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 545
Default answers for snoot

Just wanted to clarify the Mayall bit. John Mayall was seeking out Peter's services around the time he was a gravedigger. I think that was late '71?

I don't think there would've been an "End of the Game" without drugs. Actually one has to ask what songs Peter wrote were drug inspired (Manalishi of course) or weren't.

In today's world, Peter's lack of self for charity would be seen as an admirable trait. Forty years ago, you were crazy.

I always thought Kirwan snapped because he was the de-facto leader, and couldn't take it. By Bare Trees, you really felt Kirwan was taking the lead in songwriting in terms of output. As long as Green was in the band he didn't have that pressure of being a leader. Of course this thread speculated the rumor that Kirwan was thinking of leaving before Green, so who knows.


I think that's all, for now.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Christine Mcvie (reissue) by Christine McVie (CD, 1997) 1984 Solo Album picture

Christine Mcvie (reissue) by Christine McVie (CD, 1997) 1984 Solo Album

$6.98



Lindsey Buckingham Christine McV... - Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie CD XLVG picture

Lindsey Buckingham Christine McV... - Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie CD XLVG

$7.94



Christine McVie - Christine Mcvie [New CD] picture

Christine McVie - Christine Mcvie [New CD]

$16.44



Christine McVie - Christine Mcvie (reissue) [New CD] Reissue picture

Christine McVie - Christine Mcvie (reissue) [New CD] Reissue

$15.27



Christine McVie Self Titled LP Record. Nice Vinyl 1984. See Desc. picture

Christine McVie Self Titled LP Record. Nice Vinyl 1984. See Desc.

$7.49




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1995-2003 Martin and Lisa Adelson, All Rights Reserved