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  #1  
Old 11-26-2008, 07:05 AM
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Default Interesting read

I just came across this, I dont think anyone had posted it before.

http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/20...n-guitar-hero/
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2008, 09:57 AM
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I just came across this, I dont think anyone had posted it before.

http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/20...n-guitar-hero/
Very interesting. Thanx.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:03 AM
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Thanks for posting this, Norton! Great info on the equipment and recording process.
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2008, 02:29 PM
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I just came across this, I dont think anyone had posted it before.

http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/20...n-guitar-hero/
Thanks for this link -it's a very interesting article.
Krzysztof
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  #5  
Old 12-07-2008, 09:24 PM
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Not bad, but arguably a bit one-sided re Peter Green. PG was definitely the leader and driving force behind the original blues-rock Mac unit, no doubt about it. FM wouldn't have achieved the fame they did without Peter's immense input. That's a given also. But to completely overlook Danny Kirwan in the preface, with the counterpoint and weight he provided, or even Jeremy Spencer for his stage presence and comic relief, is a fairly sizable omission. To its credit, the article does improve by adding more depth later on when discussing the respective equipment the guys used, and some of the techniques employed. For that I give it a B+.

As I see it, when sizing up the Green-led Mac, those 3 principals pretty much fuse as one. Anything less and you're splitting hairs mostly. Case in point: what would Then Play On be without Kirwan's heady supplement?

PS. It's like yappin' a tad too enthusiastically about Duane Allman (RIP) and his contro to ABB while conveniently forgetting Dicky Betts. Ain't gonna fly in the long run for those in the know.

Last edited by snoot; 12-07-2008 at 09:54 PM..
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:26 AM
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PS. It's like yappin' a tad too enthusiastically about Duane Allman (RIP) and his contro to ABB while conveniently forgetting Dicky Betts. Ain't gonna fly in the long run for those in the know.

Dickey Betts wouldn't have been "Dickey Betts" without Duane Allman...Duane pushed Dickey to be better than he was... in the same way Danny Kirwan & Jeremy Spencer wouldn't have been who they were without Peter Green. Peter set the standard and Danny & Jeremy had to "up their game" to keep up.
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:16 PM
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Not bad, but arguably a bit one-sided re Peter Green. PG was definitely the leader and driving force behind the original blues-rock Mac unit, no doubt about it. FM wouldn't have achieved the fame they did without Peter's immense input. That's a given also. But to completely overlook Danny Kirwan in the preface, with the counterpoint and weight he provided, or even Jeremy Spencer for his stage presence and comic relief, is a fairly sizable omission. To its credit, the article does improve by adding more depth later on when discussing the respective equipment the guys used, and some of the techniques employed. For that I give it a B+.

As I see it, when sizing up the Green-led Mac, those 3 principals pretty much fuse as one. Anything less and you're splitting hairs mostly. Case in point: what would Then Play On be without Kirwan's heady supplement?

PS. It's like yappin' a tad too enthusiastically about Duane Allman (RIP) and his contro to ABB while conveniently forgetting Dicky Betts. Ain't gonna fly in the long run for those in the know.

Well the article isn't about the rest of Fleetwood Mac, it's about Peter Green. As good as Kirwan and Spencer were, Peter Green was the engine in the car. That's quite obvious given Spencer's quick departure nine months after Green, and Kirwan's decent into alcoholism. No one is taking away their contributions. The article merely wants to give credit to a guitarist who is easily overlooked compared to Clapton, Beck, Page, Allman (yes I said it), Hendrix.... Green clearly belongs in that group.

Last edited by slipkid; 12-08-2008 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:06 PM
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Well the article isn't about the rest of Fleetwood Mac, it's about Peter Green. As good as Kirwan and Spencer were, Peter Green was the engine in the car. That's quite obvious given Spencer's quick departure nine months after Green, and Kirwan's decent into alcoholism. No one is taking away their contributions. The article merely wants to give credit to a guitarist who is easily overlooked compared to Clapton, Beck, Page, Allman (yes I said it), Hendrix.... Green clearly belongs in that group.
I'll give you that, the main thrust of the article, but Green's FM constitution without Kirwan is like ABB without Betts. Or of another vein, Lennon without McCartney. Still good, but nowhere near complete. That was my main point. It could also be argued - very easily IMO - that Kirwan's guitar pulse shone every bit as bright as Green's in the blues-rock Fleetwood Mac. Then Play On is proof of that, beyond their late stage appearances where Kirwan really took flight. Spencer should not even be mentioned here. Great stage presence, but not a guitar master.

BTW why bring up DK's alcoholism when Green's mental deterioration was even more abrupt, one likewise fueled by drugs and booze. Best to keep an even hand here.
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  #9  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:30 PM
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Dickey Betts wouldn't have been "Dickey Betts" without Duane Allman...Duane pushed Dickey to be better than he was... in the same way Danny Kirwan & Jeremy Spencer wouldn't have been who they were without Peter Green. Peter set the standard and Danny & Jeremy had to "up their game" to keep up.
Dickey Betts was quite good right from the start. He fueled Duane with his great compositions every bit as much as Duane fueled him with his masterful licks. Also ABB would never reach the heights they did without Betts key contributions. Most of their hits came from his hand, with Gregg being a pretty close second. As for his instrumental abilities, the fact that he could carry on as the band's solo guitarist after Duane's death, even taking the band to further heights of popularity, should be proof of his guitar mastery. I'll never take anything away from Duane though; even Eric Clapton was blown away by his playing in Miami. And I'll give you your key point, that he certainly pushed DB to his guitar picking limits.

You also make the mistake many others do in equating Jeremy's prowess on the instrument with Kirwan's. Spencer was no match in that regard, so much so that Green's last masterpiece with the band, the Then Play On project, didn't even require Spencer. That was all Green + Kirwan on those layered riffs. Jeremy was a master of the stage, a competent slide guitarist into the bargain, a great rock n roller and parody "character", but an axemeister of Green or Kirwan's caliber, NO (even Spencer has conceded as much).
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:54 PM
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Dickey Betts was quite good right from the start. He fueled Duane with his great compositions every bit as much as Duane fueled him with his masterful licks. Also ABB would never reach the heights they did without Betts key contributions. Most of their hits came from his hand, with Gregg being a pretty close second. As for his instrumental abilities, the fact that he could carry on as the band's solo guitarist after Duane's death, even taking the band to further heights of popularity, should be proof of his guitar mastery. I'll never take anything away from Duane though; even Eric Clapton was blown away by his playing in Miami. And I'll give you your key point, that he certainly pushed DB to his guitar picking limits.

You also make the mistake many others do in equating Jeremy's prowess on the instrument with Kirwan's. Spencer was no match in that regard, so much so that Green's last masterpiece with the band, the Then Play On project, didn't even require Spencer. That was all Green + Kirwan on those layered riffs. Jeremy was a master of the stage, a competent slide guitarist into the bargain, a great rock n roller and parody "character", but an axemeister of Green or Kirwan's caliber, NO (even Spencer has conceded as much).
I made no mistake, you misinterpreted my comment. I know very well who's on Then Play On. I never inferred, implied that Jeremy was anywhere near the guitarist of Green or Kirwan. BUT, Peter pushed Jeremy as well...not as much as a guitarist (but, Jeremy went from "competent" slide player, to a master slide player during that stretch as well), but as a performer. Sure, Jeremy admits he was "lazy", but that he became who he became during his Fleetwood Mac tenure was more from prodding from Peter (who was pretty much a perfectionist).
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  #11  
Old 12-08-2008, 08:00 PM
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I'll give you that, the main thrust of the article, but Green's FM constitution without Kirwan is like ABB without Betts. Or of another vein, Lennon without McCartney. Still good, but nowhere near complete. That was my main point. It could also be argued - very easily IMO - that Kirwan's guitar pulse shone every bit as bright as Green's in the blues-rock Fleetwood Mac. Then Play On is proof of that, beyond their late stage appearances where Kirwan really took flight. Spencer should not even be mentioned here. Great stage presence, but not a guitar master.

BTW why bring up DK's alcoholism when Green's mental deterioration was even more abrupt, one likewise fueled by drugs and booze. Best to keep an even hand here.
Green was writing great songs with John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac before Kirwan joined. I don't think it's the same as Lennon/McCartney or Allman/Betts. Green was more like a big brother to Kirwan who took tutelage. As a songwriter, Kirwan was a quick study, and became an incredible songwriter. His contributions to "Then Play On" are essential. But it was more like "Peter, I've written a song, do you like it?" Green would respond: "As long as you think it's good, go for it." (paraphrasing)
Kirwan would seek Green's approval, and Green would try to build Kirwan's confidence.


As a guitarist, he was by no means close to Peter Green. We are talking about arguably the greatest british guitarist ever. Kirwan's vibrato technique is almost unrivaled, but in an improvisational role he wasn't in Green's league.


I only mentioned Kirwan's alcohol problem to point out that he had difficulty taking a leadership role after Green left the band. Green left a void that FM didn't recover from until Buckingham/Nicks, by then a much different band.

I'm not trying to put Kirwan down, just look at my avatar. I love his work through Bare Trees. It's just that we're talking about Peter Green.
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  #12  
Old 12-08-2008, 08:05 PM
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I made no mistake, you misinterpreted my comment. I know very well who's on Then Play On. I never inferred, implied that Jeremy was anywhere near the guitarist of Green or Kirwan. BUT, Peter pushed Jeremy as well...not as much as a guitarist (but, Jeremy went from "competent" slide player, to a master slide player during that stretch as well), but as a performer. Sure, Jeremy admits he was "lazy", but that he became who he became during his Fleetwood Mac tenure was more from prodding from Peter (who was pretty much a perfectionist).
Well in all fairness, I can't argue with your points there. And as the band's chief "pusher" (hmmm, better choice of words? ), Green was unrivalled indeed.
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:33 PM
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Green was writing great songs with John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac before Kirwan joined. I don't think it's the same as Lennon/McCartney or Allman/Betts. Green was more like a big brother to Kirwan who took tutelage. As a songwriter, Kirwan was a quick study, and became an incredible songwriter. His contributions to "Then Play On" are essential. But it was more like "Peter, I've written a song, do you like it?" Green would respond: "As long as you think it's good, go for it." (paraphrasing) Kirwan would seek Green's approval, and Green would try to build Kirwan's confidence.
Ok so far, so good. Though I do think the Lennon/McCartney and Allman/Betts analogies have merit, with a touch of bending to fit the circumstances.

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As a guitarist, he was by no means close to Peter Green.
We are talking about arguably the greatest british guitarist ever. Kirwan's vibrato technique is almost unrivaled, but in an improvisational role he wasn't in Green's league.
Cannot agree with you here. DK was scaling new heights towards the end, into uncharted territory in many ways, and some have even claimed was beginning to surpass Peter (though I fully admit that is open to argument). The fact remains that by the end, the two became twin faces of the same FM coin. It was damn near impossible to consider one's weight without the other. That is my main point.

Pete the greatest British guitar player ever? No. That's an overreach IMO.

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I only mentioned Kirwan's alcohol problem to point out that he had difficulty taking a leadership role after Green left the band.
Fair enough. But couldn't it be argued that Green was succumbing (and later succumbed) to the same phantoms and pressure, the weight of being front and center with all eyes upon him? Wasn't that one of the key reasons he brought Danny aboard, only to be soon blown away by the protégé's innate - and quickly blossoming - talent? Of course Pete couldn't have been happier with Kirwan's progress, as he helped make it happen (no doubt about that).

Someday you will fully appreciate just how much Peter and Danny had in common. It's almost eerie the more you size it up.

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Green left a void that FM didn't recover from until Buckingham/Nicks, by then a much different band.
WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch? (and perhaps to a lesser extent, Bob Weston, but that's another - and secondary - story). Plus the emergence of Christine as a large force in the band.

Also FMac was never huge in the USA during the Green era, as opposed to Europe where they ruled. The Kirwan-Welch period actually increased their fame in the States. And without Welch, Buckingham-Nicks would never have been discovered by Mick, as it was Welch who talked the band to relocating to SoCal, the place he called home.

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I'm not trying to put Kirwan down, just look at my avatar. I love his work through Bare Trees. It's just that we're talking about Peter Green.
Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. While Peter was slowly imploding, Danny was surging ahead. There's no way around that fact. Green may have been the main engine in the Mac machine, but he was beginning to run out of gas as Danny was ramping it up on full burn. Care to argue there?

I think there is one thing you and I will fully agree on: that it was a great shame that those two couldn't have played on. Now not to leave you on a bad note, but who's fault was that?

Last edited by snoot; 12-08-2008 at 08:41 PM..
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:18 PM
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Cannot agree with you here. DK was scaling new heights towards the end, into uncharted territory in many ways, and some have even claimed was beginning to surpass Peter (though I fully admit that is open to argument). The fact remains that by the end, the two became twin faces of the same FM coin. It was damn near impossible to consider one's weight without the other. That is my main point.

From the concerts I hear towards the end, there's still no doubt who is the true lead guitarist, and who had more of a rhythm role. Kirwan's solos live never deviated much show to show. All Green wanted to do was improvise. I don't know where you get your information on those who claim Kirwan was surpassing Peter, certainly not the liner notes, and books I have read. Peter Green was at the peak of his powers as a guitarist when he left the band 5/25/70.

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Pete the greatest British guitar player ever? No. That's an overreach IMO.
I said "arguably". I think many on this board will back me up. After all, this is the Peter Green forum.

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Fair enough. But couldn't it be argued that Green was succumbing (and later succumbed) to the same phantoms and pressure, the weight of being front and center with all eyes upon him? Wasn't that one of the key reasons he brought Danny aboard, only to be soon blown away by the protégé's innate - and quickly blossoming - talent? Of course Pete couldn't have been happier with Kirwan's progress, as he helped make it happen (no doubt about that).

Someday you will fully appreciate just how much Peter and Danny had in common. It's almost eerie the more you size it up.
First of all, Peter didn't bring Danny aboard. Mick Fleetwood was the one who brought him into the band via the manager. Peter was relieved that duties would then be shared instead of he carrying the load. Green also used to give Kirwan a hard time. He used to call him "Young Eyes", which drove Kirwan crazy. Danny was a pretty uptight person who took things way too seriously, Green's polar opposite. He didn't have great social interaction skills so he drank to overcome them. Peter Green took mind altering drugs because he thought they were helping him create. All it did was bring on acute schizophrenia.



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WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch? (and perhaps to a lesser extent, Bob Weston, but that's another - and secondary - story). Plus the emergence of Christine as a large force in the band.

Also FMac was never huge in the USA during the Green era, as opposed to Europe where they ruled. The Kirwan-Welch period actually increased their fame in the States. And without Welch, Buckingham-Nicks would never have been discovered by Mick, as it was Welch who talked the band to relocating to SoCal, the place he called home.
The band didn't have any headline success either in the states or Europe until the white album in 1975, that's just a fact. I didn't say the middle period didn't produce good music. Their former manager in 1974 was trying to discredit the legit FM with a phony product! Not a great time. It's just a fact that in terms of stature and album sales there was a lull in that five year period. Obviously the 1975-81 version of the band went on to obliterate billboard chart history. As for how Buckingham/Nicks came to be, let's just say I prefer to remember FM as a rock band. That's not Bob Welch's fault, just a right place, right time scenario to make millions of dollars.

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Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. While Peter was slowly imploding, Danny was surging ahead. There's no way around that fact. Green may have been the main engine in the Mac machine, but he was beginning to run out of gas as Danny was ramping it up on full burn. Care to argue there?

I think there is one thing you and I will fully agree on: that it was a great shame that those two couldn't have played on. Now not to leave you on a bad note, but who's fault was that? :cool

Ok I get it, you're not a fan of the purist blues FM, Kirwan was great, and that's fine. Peter Green was going to leave Fleetwood Mac anyway eventually, drugs or not. He was becoming bored being the rock star. You had three guitarists (egos) that had to have their space of songs night after night, too many chefs and no cooks. The loss is that with the drugs he dropped out of the music business completely. Had he been clean, we could've had some great exploratory "world music".

Last edited by slipkid; 12-08-2008 at 11:28 PM..
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:27 AM
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From the concerts I hear towards the end, there's still no doubt who is the true lead guitarist, and who had more of a rhythm role. Kirwan's solos live never deviated much show to show. All Green wanted to do was improvise. I don't know where you get your information on those who claim Kirwan was surpassing Peter, certainly not the liner notes, and books I have read. Peter Green was at the peak of his powers as a guitarist when he left the band 5/25/70.
Right, and like the young Kirwan was going to step all over Green's toes with reckless abandon as he saw fit. And please dont forget that improvistion and structure are twin faces of the creative process. Both are needed to produce real magic.

As for surpassing Green, we may be sort of blurring aspects of larger FM themes here. I'm mostly talking about their overall contributions towards the end, not merely their guitar prowess. On both fronts though, the two were beginning to run head and head, so much so that Green was starting to feel a bit challenged, even threatened at times, by the upstart kid he originally freely encouraged. To what extent this all played out only those on the scene truly know. Maybe Jeremy has a few recollections he may choose to add.

I said "arguably". I think many on this board will back me up. After all, this is the Peter Green forum.

Right, one which I am currently participating on. And once again IMO, he was not. Now you do allow touches of dissention here, right?

First of all, Peter didn't bring Danny aboard. Mick Fleetwood was the one who brought him into the band via the manager.

You're really splitting hairs now. I'm sure they both had a direct hand in his enlistment, most likely in equal measure. Green was not caught off guard or surprised by the lad from Boilerhouse! Moreover, he had more to do with DK's development than any other member of the group.

Peter was relieved that duties would then be shared instead of he carrying the load. Green also used to give Kirwan a hard time. He used to call him "Young Eyes", which drove Kirwan crazy. Danny was a pretty uptight person who took thinks way too seriously, Green's polar opposite. He didn't have great social interaction skills so he drank to overcome them. Peter Green took mind altering drugs because he thought they were helping him create. All it did was bring on acute schizophrenia.

I know the story too, well, as best as it can be stitched together. "Young Eyes" could also be seen as endearing, even if DK didn't like it. As for the drinking aspect, what do you think most young musicians - especially at that ripe young age - were doing back then but drinking and/or smoking, often excessively. Danny was no different! His drinking got worse as time went on. Gee, where have we seen THAT before? Peter, in the same vein, was increasingly indulging in various drug experiments, only difference being his candle burned out much quicker with the heavier stuff he was ingesting (bouts of schizophrenia + depression aside).

The band didn't have any headline success either in the states or Europe until the white album in 1975, that's just a fact.

FM were doing quite well across Europe during the Green era, far better than in the States where they were still almost unknown. There was a big difference in the recognition factor between the two continents at that time.

I didn't say the middle period didn't produce good music. Their former manager in 1974 was trying to discredit the legit FM with a phony product! Not a great time. It's just a fact that in terms of stature and album sales there was a lull in that five year period.

What you said was Green left a void that FM didn't recover from until Buckingham/Nicks, by then a much different band.

I'll agree with a void being created, that's not a reach when your principal driver exits stage right, but there never was any "recovery" some 5 odd years later. The surviving members just put their heads together and decided to march on, with Danny and Jeremy co-leading the way at the outset. Certainly it was a disconcerting thing considering they lost their leader and chief mojo, but they pulled it off nonetheless, full of bumps and ruts along the way. The fact remains they took their name and popularity to greater heights afterwards, on a gradual, ever-increasing basis. That's just a fact dude; I know as I was there throughout the period. Also, how could there be a "lull" in sales in that period when they never had big sales in the States to begin with until after Peter left the band? Not blockbuster sales, but substantial ones nonetheless in the Kirwan/Welch (aka middle) era.

Obviously the 1975-81 version of the band went on to obliterate billboard chart history. As for how Buckingham/Nicks came to be, let's just say I prefer to remember FM as a rock band. That's not Bob Welch's fault, just a right place, right time scenario to make millions of dollars.

That's cool, I can appreciate those who would have preferred the FM sound & style staying frozen in time (or eras), but the long hard road (and changing personnel) dictated something far different. From practically day one, they were a constantly evolving sound front -- yes even in the "purer" PG blues-rock era, particularly once Kirwan came aboard. As I see it, Fleetwood and Green begat Kirwan, Kirwan's burnout then begat Welch's more prominent rise, Welch's burnout begat Buckingham's discovery, and Buckingham begat Nicks by pressing for her inclusion in the band. And then of course came superstardom, and straddling new heights.

Ok I get it, you're not a fan of the purist blues FM, Kirwan was great, and that's fine.

Wrong. I own all the old Mac stuff, and appreciate the Peter Green era in equal measure. He remains the founder and original driving force of Fleetwood Mac in my eyes, above anyone else - including Mick - since it was he that really got the ball rolling. But that's not what I'm arguing here. In fact, far from it.

Peter Green was going to leave Fleetwood Mac anyway, drugs or not. The loss is that with the drugs he dropped out of the music business completely. Had he been clean, we could've had some great exploratory "world music".

He simply overdid it, with a personality that lent itself towards that kind of indulgence. How is it you can lament his drug peccadilloes - or at least size them up for what they're worth - but then cut Kirwan no similar slack with his alcohol and personality shortcomings? Is it because one smiled as he went down, while the other growled? Or is it the love of pure blues that causes such blind spots?

Last edited by snoot; 12-09-2008 at 02:26 AM..
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