Dont Stop at DNC

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Bull****. If he truly were man of integrity he wouldn't be in Venezuela right now pushing the Bush doctrine of kicking out the socialist-leaning, elected leader of the country so that the Americans can install their puppet and seize the oil through privatization.

Wake up, man. Carter is sick-ass imperialist like Bush.

Here we go again Are they gonna seize the oil like they seized the oil in Iraq. Oh - wait a minute, we did not seize the oil in Iraq and will and can not now. Hmmmmmmm - maybe that was not our intention all along Yet, it sounds good to say it.

But, I digress. My point was all politicians are like that to some degree. I mean have you ever liked any politician? If so - who. I am pretty sure that politician did bad acts as well - they all do - it is the nature of the beast because you cannot please everyone all of the time. So, I say on the whole Carter is/was a great guy. No one is perfect. No one can pass that standard Yet, we all hold them up to it.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Patti

You're welcome to try to rain on our parade all you want, but the fact remains, those were some great speeches last night. And Carter DOES have integrity. A person should be judged by the whole sum of their lives and overall he's done a lot of great things for people in need.

Well, there you have it. I forgot we were supposed to decide whom to vote for based on convention speeches. What was I thinking?

On Carter, delude yourself all you want. But next month, Chavez likely will get thrown out in Venezuela fully with Carter's assistance. When history looks back and sees that the Bush-backed guy whose only goal for taking power was to whore Venezuela's oil to the US and British conglomerates, do you think anyone will ever stop and question Carter's role in this election? And all the other elections that he's already poisoned?

Fortunately, not everyone is in denial about St. Jimmy:

http://www.counterpunch.org/petras07082004.html

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Here we go again Are they gonna seize the oil like they seized the oil in Iraq. Oh - wait a minute, we did not seize the oil in Iraq and will and can not now. Hmmmmmmm - maybe that was not our intention all along Yet, it sounds good to say it.

Do you think the last chapter of this book has been written yet? Gee, Strand, I seem to recall the first time we ever crossed swords on this board was about Bush's AIDS efforts in Africa. You were adamant that this administration was doing the right thing, god bless 'em. I haven't read your post correcting yourself on that one either. I wonder when it becomes inarguable that we went into Iraq to get their oil whether you'll post about that either. That of course might take a few years.

I mean have you ever liked any politician?

Paul Wellstone.

If so - who. I am pretty sure that politician did bad acts as well - they all do -

OK. Name it.

So, I say on the whole Carter is/was a great guy. No one is perfect. No one can pass that standard Yet, we all hold them up to it.

On the whole, he's a sneaky little bastid who started a lot conflicts for which we are still paying. Just think: No Carter decision to aid the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, no big gaping hole in the New York skyline today.

But, hey, forgive me for bringing up facts. Let's all just gush over Clinton and how great a speaker he is.

We really are a shallow nation, aren't we?

[Patti]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Well, there you have it. I forgot we were supposed to decide whom to vote for based on convention speeches. What was I thinking?

And just where did I say anyone was supposed to decide for whom to vote based on convention speeches? In answer to your rhetorical question, therefore, I don't know what you were thinking.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Patti

And just where did I say anyone was supposed to decide for whom to vote based on convention speeches? In answer to your rhetorical question, therefore, I don't know what you were thinking.

Call it interpretive license, which I reached with my amazing powers of cognition after absorbing this:

Well, if need be, then I will stay in my little haven of denial right now. You're welcome to try to rain on our parade all you want, but the fact remains, those were some great speeches last night.

I must be some kind of genius if I can interpret from that comment that those "great speeches" are what matters.

[estranged4life]

for the mute button on the TV remote (I think it was made specifically for the muting of those same-ol' political BS speeches), who ever created the TV remote is the GREATEST genius EVER!!!

Thus I salute you in the ever popular Wayne Campbell style..."I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy"

[Patti]

Really Carne, I was only speaking for myself. I enjoyed the hell out of those speeches last night. I made up my mind long ago who I would vote for in 2004 and that was back in 2000, when Bush was appointed president.
So please take your interpretive license elsewhere. I don't appreciate your interpreting my words.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Patti

So please take your interpretive license elsewhere. I don't appreciate your interpreting my words.

Then you must have a tough time getting trough life because, like it or not, every time you speak, someone is interpreting your words. That's the way communication works.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Call it interpretive license...

You might want to tread lightly with that "interpretive license" deal... it might come back to bite you on the arse.

And I realize that I don't need to tell you, or anyone, but the whole idea of these conventions is to "rally the troops."
That's the point. So of course people are going to be excited about these speeches, and the things being said... they should be. And they should be incited to go out and vote by the things they're hearing. No matter which party's candidates they choose.

Also, the last time I looked, there wasn't a politician in existence who doesn't have some skeleton or shady deal in his closet. I'm not saying we should ignore or deny their foibles... but it happens. So it's left up to us to decide which negatives we can live with, and those that we can't live with.

Quite frankly, I couldn't have cared less who Clinton schtupped while he was President (or before or since). He didn't conduct his personal life the way I conduct mine, but when he was actually allowed to, he did a great job in office.
Not perfect, of course, but a great job nonetheless. And that's what I base my opinion on.

You want change... I want change... but unrelenting cynicism isn't going to bring about that change.
Like your hero says, "We have to fight for the positive choice." I choose to be positive, and to look for the good in people (when it's there), and I'm voting in November for the man who, while imperfect, has more good in him than our current President.

[Patti]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Then you must have a tough time getting trough life because, like it or not, every time you speak, someone is interpreting your words. That's the way communication works.

I completely understand how communication works, but thanks for the primer. I AM surprised I have gotten through life without you to interpret my words for me.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

You might want to tread lightly with that "interpretive license" deal... it might come back to bite you on the arse.

Don't I know it!

And I realize that I don't need to tell you, or anyone, but the whole idea of these conventions is to "rally the troops."

No, Johnny, conventions were invented to select a ticket and write a platform. What we see today is a perverted display of self-promotion that does the voters absolutely no good. You must stop at some point and ask yourself why half the electorate doesn't bother to vote. This is one of the reasons. Too much show; not enough substance. Believe it.

Also, the last time I looked, there wasn't a politician in existence who doesn't have some skeleton or shady deal in his closet.

I know a few. But I'll say it again, Paul Wellstone. If you know of any skeletons in his closet, please share. Otherwise, I would hope you would take that back.

[puote]Quite frankly, I couldn't have cared less who Clinton schtupped while he was President (or before or since). [/quote]

You get 10 points for using one of my favorite words.

You want change... I want change... but unrelenting cynicism isn't going to bring about that change.

Not cynicism, Johnny. I would be cynical if I were here lambasting the Democrats and then voting for the lesser of two evils, not to mention hypocritical. Just being a realist. It offends my sense of fairness that Jimmy Carter gets hailed as some kind of human-rights hero when he is anything but. He started a lot of crap that we're still paying for, and will be paying for in years to come. And as we speak, he is pressuring the duly elected government of Venezuela so that the Bush-backed puppets take over the government and hand over the oil to the megacorporations. I'm not making this up, folks.

Like your hero says, "We have to fight for the positive choice."

I'm sure you were being funny, but Lindsey Buckingham is not even close to being my hero.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Patti

I completely understand how communication works, but thanks for the primer. I AM surprised I have gotten through life without you to interpret my words for me.

I dunno. But if you need any help, let me know.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Do you think the last chapter of this book has been written yet? Gee, Strand, I seem to recall the first time we ever crossed swords on this board was about Bush's AIDS efforts in Africa. You were adamant that this administration was doing the right thing, god bless 'em. I haven't read your post correcting yourself on that one either. I wonder when it becomes inarguable that we went into Iraq to get their oil whether you'll post about that either. That of course might take a few years.

Bush did call for funding of AIDS medication to Africa. Has that changed? If it has, I do not remember it. I do rememeber Congress refusing to fund it - but that is not dispositive of W changing his mind. Congress is a sep. body. So, if I am wrong and W changed his mind, so be it. I stand corrected.

As for the oil, there is no way that W can take it and make it America's oil. I know that and you know that. But, if it makes you feel better to keep asserting it, go ahead. AND - the minute the US says "Iraqi oil is ours" I will be first in line to say I am wrong. But that has not happened. In fact, the contrary has happened. We gave Iraq billions to rebuild (I know I know we blew them up, the years of santions had weakened the nation, we owed it to them, blah blah blah) - we are not asking to be paid back. So, when you can show me the US has taken the Iraqi's oil and made it our own, I will gladly capitulate. Until then, I believe I am correct in what I assert.

As for Paul Wellstone. I do not know that much about him, but if you say so, great. He is one out of how many. I suggest, the vast majority have done what some would consider bad acts. That is why I still say I look to the person as a whole. But, others do not and that is their right - who am I to keep them down.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

As for the oil, there is no way that W can take it and make it America's oil. I know that and you know that. But, if it makes you feel better to keep asserting it, go ahead. AND - the minute the US says "Iraqi oil is ours" I will be first in line to say I am wrong. But that has not happened. In fact, the contrary has happened. We gave Iraq billions to rebuild (I know I know we blew them up, the years of santions had weakened the nation, we owed it to them, blah blah blah) - we are not asking to be paid back. So, when you can show me the US has taken the Iraqi's oil and made it our own, I will gladly capitulate. Until then, I believe I am correct in what I assert.

Jason, you brought up the Iraq oil issue, remember? I was pointing out that Carter is involved in some shady stuff going on in Venezuela. Do you want to deal with those facts or stick your head in the sand? Wouldn't it be nice if the American public for once were paying attention so perhaps they could pressure its government into avoiding another disaster? But I'll bet you 99 percent of people who post here haven't paid attention to what is going on in Venezuela and how that illustrates perfectly our wrongheaded policies that inevitably and invariably come back to bite us in the ass. To wit, two former CIA agents said this about the 9/11 commission report:

But overall, the commission's categorical statements paint a bleak picture, describing a situation that allegedly cannot improve for decades. Many of us would argue the contrary case, that if the U.S. actually changed its foreign policies, seriously addressed legitimate grievances of Arabs and Muslims on the Palestine-Israel issue, and ceased its drive for political and economic domination over their areas of the world -- the very grievances the commission acknowledges are widespread in the Muslim world -- we could reduce the threat of terrorism against us in far less time. In addition, many of us believe that, unless the U.S. does change its foreign policies, the threat, and the actuality, of a heightened level of terrorism, and probably of nuclear warfare as well, against us and our allies will persist far longer than just decades. Given that fewer than 300 million people now reside in the U.S., whereas the rest of the world's population, at 6 billion, is 20 times as large, American leaders today are playing an unwinnable hand and their drive for global domination is doomed beyond the very short term.

http://www.counterpunch.com/

Notice the part I bolded. This is what I've been saying for years. When we stick our noses in the business of other nations it is always with self-interest foremost, meaning to line the pockets of the corporations, and in the case of Muslim extremism, the retribution has been particularly harsh. What I bolded above is not only reflective of how Muslim nations feel about us, but also the peoples of South America, Asia and other places where we have exploited natural resources and colluded with ruthless dictators. I'm merely pointing out that the man you admire so much, Jimmy Carter, is working so hard in Venezuela to aid the American-backed opposition to get Chavez out of power. Keep in mind the Bushers already tried to depose him once through a failed coup.

All I'm saying is that Americans need to learn the truth, face up to it and start trying to correct these issues. Sanctifying Jimmy Carter, who is responsible for far more death wholesale so far than Dubya, only serves to perpetuate the misguided policies that put us in a very negative light before the rest of the world. Don't you think folks outside our borders know what's going on in Venezuela? Don't you think they know what really went on in Haiti a few months ago? And they have pretty good memories too. Especially the Muslim extremists.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Patti

Well, if need be, then I will stay in my little haven of denial right now. You're welcome to try to rain on our parade all you want, but the fact remains, those were some great speeches last night. And Carter DOES have integrity. A person should be judged by the whole sum of their lives and overall he's done a lot of great things for people in need.

And count me in on the "I would vote for Clinton again in a heartbeat"!

Thank you. I don't have the time or the strength right now.