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  #16  
Old 12-17-2003, 02:27 PM
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dissention dissention is offline
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And here's one for the books...

The second pillar of peace and security in our world is the willingness of free nations, when the last resort arrives, to retain aggression and evil by force.
-- I hope that isn't what he meant to say, London, England, Nov. 19, 2003
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2003, 04:38 PM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Presidential politics

Quote:
Originally posted by gldstwmn
Sorry, it was on the Kerry/O'Reilly thread:

From John Kerry's website:

Kerry rips Dean for `flip-flop' on Iraq...
Whew... wait a minute! I'm supposed to change my opinion of Dean because Kerry, very disingenuously, charges him with flip-flopping? Dean says we need to go to the UN before taking action and then when Bush doesn't, Dean opposes the war, and that's supposed to be flip-flopping!?

John Kerry is acting a lot like Al Gore did when he ran in primaries. By that, I mean, he's a lying a little, nyet? He should formulate a consistent agenda for himself and shut up about an opponent who obviously is far more exciting to the voters than Cardboard-Cutup Kerry could ever hope to be.
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  #18  
Old 12-17-2003, 04:46 PM
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gldstwmn gldstwmn is offline
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Presidential politics

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Originally posted by CarneVaca
Whew... wait a minute! I'm supposed to change my opinion of Dean because Kerry, very disingenuously, charges him with flip-flopping? Dean says we need to go to the UN before taking action and then when Bush doesn't, Dean opposes the war, and that's supposed to be flip-flopping!?

John Kerry is acting a lot like Al Gore did when he ran in primaries. By that, I mean, he's a lying a little, nyet? He should formulate a consistent agenda for himself and shut up about an opponent who obviously is far more exciting to the voters than Cardboard-Cutup Kerry could ever hope to be.
I'll bet you I could do a Lexis Nexis search right now and pull up all kinds of quotes from the Vermont papers refrencing Dean's stance on the war. Most people are under the impression that Dean was not for any war. I certainly don't expect you to change your opinion, I was just providing counterpoint for what you were saying.
I guess all the American people want out of a president is a little entertainment. At least that's what the polls say.
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  #19  
Old 12-17-2003, 04:54 PM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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I will not make the mistake of calling Dean a liberal. He really is nothing close. I have serious issues with some of his positions, particularly Israel and guns. But I give him cudos for what he has accomplished in this campaign already. What Lieberman and Kerry are going to accomplish with their loser attacks is to keep people at home on voting day. That's bad all around.

If Dean has backed other wars, and I am sure he has, it doesn't surprise me. But his comments about going to the UN are not necessarily inconsistent with taking an anti-war stance. I was in favor of going to the UN as well, in the full expectation that the Security Council would not have approved this Iraq adventure. But if it had, I would have still been against the war, though perhaps not quite as vehemently. But the real question is would Dean have still been against the war? We'll never know. However, I am glad he has chosen to take an anti-war stance.
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  #20  
Old 12-18-2003, 07:25 AM
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Here is an interesting commentary viewing the current Adminsitrations from a few angles.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2092791/

Also, I do not view Kerry as flip flopping. I think he, like he said, recognized the need to remove SH, but never expected the Bush Administration to fu*& it up this badly.
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  #21  
Old 12-18-2003, 10:43 AM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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I guess I just don't understand the neeeeeeed to remove a two-bit dictator who has had no weapons to speak of since we stopped giving them to him. Meanwhile, there are far more dangerous mofos out there, some of whom have actually been involved in attacking us. Osama, anyone?
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  #22  
Old 12-18-2003, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
I guess I just don't understand the neeeeeeed to remove a two-bit dictator who has had no weapons to speak of since we stopped giving them to him. Meanwhile, there are far more dangerous mofos out there, some of whom have actually been involved in attacking us. Osama, anyone?
I think the WMD angle was sincere but was used more to leverage support, in the US, for the war. The "conflict" in Iraq was for reasons on a larger scale then just WMD or oil (ridiculous).

The right believes that by removing one of the more oppressive dictatorships in the Middle East and supplanting it with a democratic and free government accepted by the Iraqis will be a catalyst for religious, economic and political freedom for the surrounding areas. This is a long term strategy aimed at stabilizing the region.

I actually find this a refreshing policy, in the long run. Especially because everything else, including appeasement, hasn't worked over the last couple of decades.

Only time will tell if the Bush administration and the policy will be successful. Let's hope and pray.

Rob
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"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
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  #23  
Old 12-18-2003, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
I guess I just don't understand the neeeeeeed to remove a two-bit dictator who has had no weapons to speak of since we stopped giving them to him. Meanwhile, there are far more dangerous mofos out there, some of whom have actually been involved in attacking us. Osama, anyone?
I agree to an extent only SH was no "two-bit" dictator. He had attacked and tried to conquer a neighboring country. Also, I see all of the agruments for and against the exigency of our military action, but the bottom line is SH has no one to blame but himself for not complying with the UN's unanimous position for 11 years that SH had the burden to prove he no longer had these weapons. He got what he deserved. Unfortunately, the Iraqi people as well as our and the ally soldiers have paid a dear, dear price. This is why I think we should have ousted SH in 1991 or sooner than now. But, we did not. We played his game for far too long in my book.
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  #24  
Old 12-18-2003, 11:50 AM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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Rob and Jason, you're far more trusting than I am, it seems. I see an administration that lied, distorted intelligence reports, changed its articulated motive several times and defied the will of the rest of the world to embark on a terribly ill-advised adventure with a very tragic outcome. Do you really think Saddam is more dangerous than the Saudis? Weren't the Saudis giving Al Qaeda most of its funding? (and probably still are) Why don't we attack them. Seems to me they have proven far more dangerous to our security than the Iraqis. No, instead we allow the only non-military flight on Sept. 12 out of the US full of Bin Laden family members on their way home to Saudi Arabia. Then we immediately start building the case for attacking Iraq, despite lack of evidence Saddam had anything to do with the attacks. Even the CIA was against this adventure until the agency was pressured by administration to sanction it publicly.

And as far as levels of tyranny, Saddam was not even close to being among the worst ever. Concurrently with the Iraq situation, there were far worse dictators committing unspeakable attrocities in Africa. Where is the outrage there?

Rob, do you really think democracy is going to flourish in a place where it is imposed by outsiders? Please tell me when such an endeavor has succeeded elsewhere. A sovereign people has to want a democracy. So far what we've seen in Iraq creates very real doubts. What you have is several factions fighting for power. If one overpowers the others, do you think they will extend democracy to them?

We should have learned our lesson from Vietnam and the countless instances of meddling in Latin America, Africa and elsewhere. When I think of the squandered chances for true democracies in Central and South America in favor of supporting ruthless dictators, it makes me sad and angry. Very angry.
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  #25  
Old 12-18-2003, 12:19 PM
Rob67 Rob67 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
Rob, do you really think democracy is going to flourish in a place where it is imposed by outsiders? Please tell me when such an endeavor has succeeded elsewhere. A sovereign people has to want a democracy. So far what we've seen in Iraq creates very real doubts. What you have is several factions fighting for power. If one overpowers the others, do you think they will extend democracy to them?

We should have learned our lesson from Vietnam and the countless instances of meddling in Latin America, Africa and elsewhere. When I think of the squandered chances for true democracies in Central and South America in favor of supporting ruthless dictators, it makes me sad and angry. Very angry.
Well...who's to say if Democracy will work, it hasn't been tried yet over there. The Japanese government seems to have flourished under a US backed Democracy. They have retained their culture and independance and regained a level of prominence in the world. Yes, the situation is volatile right now. But don't forget...it's only been months since the "conflict" began and they just finally caught SH. Give it time. I don't think that the Bush administration has handled the post conflict situation well. But regardless of what we do, it will take years before the results are fully realized. Besides, it is better then continually appeasing these countries.

Vietnam was a terrible tragedy and a mistake in hindsight. And I agree with you, we have supported dictatorships in the past that turned out to be major mistakes. I guess you have to look at it in context of the time and situation. SOmetimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

I just don't buy into this feeling that the US is the great evil in the world and that we are the cause of all the worlds problems. If you look at our history, we have generally acted for the good of mankind. Of course there have been mistakes and we aren't perfect. But people take our freedoms and country for granted. I think this is the greatest country in the world. If I didn't, I wouldn't live here.

Rob
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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."
- Winston Churchill

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a sh*t whether you live or die. There, you feel better now? "

"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
- Dennis Miller
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  #26  
Old 12-18-2003, 12:39 PM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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Rob, the US is a great country and Americans as a people are well-meaning folk. We tend to pick sh!tty leaders, though. Has this country done a lot of good? No doubt. But more often than not we have picked the wrong governments to back.

Japan and Iraq are very different situations. Let's not even compare them.

Hey, I hope you're right about the eventual outcome of this mess, but I'm pretty sure you're not. Time will tell indeed.

This whole Saddam thing is too much of a distraction, which I suspect is exactly what the Bushers had in mind in the first place. Look, today I have bigger concerns:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in589137.shtml

So the chairman of the 9/11 commission thinks the attacks could have been prevented? Why am I not surprised? Why does the administration's effort to keep this report under wraps make so much sense to me? And remember what I said about that peculiar flight on Sept. 12 (maybe it was the 13th)? I'm not into conspiracy theories, but man, there's just too much that doesn't make sense.
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  #27  
Old 12-18-2003, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
Japan and Iraq are very different situations. Let's not even compare them.
Very true but Japan is an example of a US backed and implemented Democracy that worked.

Quote:

Hey, I hope you're right about the eventual outcome of this mess, but I'm pretty sure you're not. Time will tell indeed.

This whole Saddam thing is too much of a distraction, which I suspect is exactly what the Bushers had in mind in the first place. Look, today I have bigger concerns:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in589137.shtml

So the chairman of the 9/11 commission thinks the attacks could have been prevented? Why am I not surprised? Why does the administration's effort to keep this report under wraps make so much sense to me? And remember what I said about that peculiar flight on Sept. 12 (maybe it was the 13th)? I'm not into conspiracy theories, but man, there's just too much that doesn't make sense.
Yeah. They said the same thing about Pearl Harbor and there was a bunch of nonsense that FDR knew about the attack ahead of time. Unless I see unquestionable proof, I refuse to believe that Bush knew about it ahead of time. But I am sure Oliver Stone will make a movie about it. (Although, I did find JFK entertaining even though it was one big assumption.)

Anyway, if Clinton would have taken care of Bin Laden the first time around we probably wouldn't even be in the situation we're in.

Oh well...hopefully things will work out. In the meantime...I am anticipating the Mirage Tour DVD I got on eBay for a little escapism!

Rob
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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."
- Winston Churchill

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a sh*t whether you live or die. There, you feel better now? "

"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
- Dennis Miller
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2003, 01:38 PM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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I'm not suggesting Bush knew anything in advance. I'm simply wondering out loud about certain things. When you insist on secrecy, speculation tends to get out of hand, so it would behoove this administration to at least get that right. I'll tell you this: I wouldn't want the widows of the 9/11 victims pissed at me, but Bush & Co. don't seem to mind.

Mirage on DVD would be cool. I hope they expand it from the video, though.
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2003, 01:45 PM
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gldstwmn gldstwmn is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
Rob, the US is a great country and Americans as a people are well-meaning folk. We tend to pick sh!tty leaders, though. Has this country done a lot of good? No doubt. But more often than not we have picked the wrong governments to back.

Japan and Iraq are very different situations. Let's not even compare them.

Hey, I hope you're right about the eventual outcome of this mess, but I'm pretty sure you're not. Time will tell indeed.

This whole Saddam thing is too much of a distraction, which I suspect is exactly what the Bushers had in mind in the first place. Look, today I have bigger concerns:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in589137.shtml

So the chairman of the 9/11 commission thinks the attacks could have been prevented? Why am I not surprised? Why does the administration's effort to keep this report under wraps make so much sense to me? And remember what I said about that peculiar flight on Sept. 12 (maybe it was the 13th)? I'm not into conspiracy theories, but man, there's just too much that doesn't make sense.
Yeah, like why Bush sat there for 20 minutes after the second plane hit and continued to read a goat story to children in an elementary school while Ari Fleischer held up a sign in the back of the room that said "Don't say anything yet." He should have left immediately. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2003, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gldstwmn
Yeah, like why Bush sat there for 20 minutes after the second plane hit and continued to read a goat story to children in an elementary school while Ari Fleischer held up a sign in the back of the room that said "Don't say anything yet." He should have left immediately. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Perhaps he didn't want to frighten the kids?

How would that have made any difference to the situation?

Just curious...

Rob
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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."
- Winston Churchill

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a sh*t whether you live or die. There, you feel better now? "

"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
- Dennis Miller
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