A post from "Jesusland"

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

Yeah, for me, it hard understand how ANYONE, liberal, repub, whatever, can stand for the lies of this administration. Jamie, you should be up in arms as an American for what the Bush administration has done, and then lied TO YOU, AND TO ALL OF US, about. This man is your president, and he lied his ass off TO YOU TO, JAMIE.

I think Jamie's distaste for the current discourse of American politics should be laid on the shoulders of the party and the administration that is largely responsible for it, both in policy decisions and outright nastiness when it comes to human behavior. No one is claiming to be an innocent when it comes to talking politics, I certainly don't. I know I'm an asshole and a rather opinionated bastard when I tlak politics, but I'd rather be an asshole in approach than naive in belief.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

. . . Everybody in "Jesusland" isn't a hateful, simmering bigot or a festering idiot.

Truer words have never been spoken - just as everyone in Mass. is not liberal W claimed them to be.

My problems rests solely in the far religious right, which is increasingly becoming the Republican party - if it has not yet consumed them. It started with Robertson in the late 80's and it has ballooned since.

In my opinion, to be a Republican and not be for automatic rights for the Christians and no one else is a conflicting position - because that is what is happening. I saw Karl Rove on Meet the Press on Sun. and he was quick to cite the ideals of the Republican Party to wit: less gov., less intrusion into out private lives, etc. - then he, of course quoted Scripture in what I took as a high sign for the flock watching him. Yet, W wants to do exactly that and more and he has achieved that goal in a lot of ways!!!!!! I mean the govt. under W is the largest it has ever been and it has the most rights combined in one Act than has ever been done so before That is why, contrary to DeeGeMe's opinion (levity) - I am not a Republican. In fact, I really tow no party line. I call B.S. B.S. when I see it Again, if that offends anyone - so be it.

[takenbythesky]

Originally Posted by ontheEdgeof17

Now, I have formed my own beliefs on the concept of God, and I feel spiritually healthy. That's all that matters, right? Having a faith that carries you through the day.....

I'm done with people telling me what to do and how to act to be a Christian. Everyone thinks they are right and quite possibly they could not be. All I know is that God loves me....gay, liberal, and all.

I've had that same "spiritually healthy" feeling since about a year and a half ago, when I decided that denominational/organized religion was not for me and began to just "go my own way."

-Justin

[Siri Ruane]

Holy crap... the reason I took a break from posting was because of all the political/debate crap, and here I come back and its only gotten worse. *dies*

[Patti]

Unfortunately, I live in Jesusland. I have been back to the midwest for 8 months now, and I am just flabbergasted at the conservative turn this area has taken. When I first became eligible to vote (a looooooooong time ago), this area was far more liberal than it is now. Several people that I spoke with over the last few months about the issue of gay marriage stated they were against it because "the bible says it's wrong". Honestly I don't remember ever hearing so many people quoting the bible in all my years of living here previously. I'm certainly not the most liberal member of this board, but living around all this "rightness" has made me more liberal every day.

Jason is right, in that the Republican party used to be the party of limited government and fiscal responsibility. Bush has done everything in his power to reverse that. The government is huge and Bush and Co. want to intrude on all areas of our lives.

So Jamie, sorry if we offend you, but the state of our country is pretty offensive right now.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Siri Ruane

Holy crap... the reason I took a break from posting was because of all the political/debate crap, and here I come back and its only gotten worse. *dies*

Well, the election stirred up alot if emotions on both sides AND - this is a place where some people can speak freely (on both sides). Admittedly, it is heavily liberal, but IMO that is because the people who voted for W cannot cite facts to support their decision when called on the carpet to do so. Who would want to be in that argument on that side - I sure would not

Finally, people, esp. gay people, see W as wanting to put them in concentration camps. While I think the theory that idea is a little fallacious, it does seem that the majority of Americans do not mind gay people as long as they do not have to see their dirty sinful ways. I think that sucks. I think this is America and if you want to hold you partner of any type's hand in public, you ought to be able to. Sadly, the far religious right is apoplectic at the thought to wit: Jerry Falwell BLAMED gay people, abortionists, and the ACLU for the invoking the Wrath of God or at least God removing His protection from the U.S. (as opposed to any other country mind you) and allowing 9/11 to happen. Then, about a month or two ago, Falwell said he would kill any gay man that approached or hit on him. Granted he retracted those statements, but the clear history of him is that those retractions are meaningless and not in any way indicative much less dispositive of his true beliefs. I mean how would you feel if someone had the effrontery to lay the most horrible thing ever to happen to the U.S. ever on you shoulders. And - this man has an effect on or controls the thoughts of millions of Americans who are now salivating to put those sinners in their place and take America back for their god. I think you'd be pissed.

[JamieSPC]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

It started with Robertson in the late 80's and it has ballooned since.

Something similar happened to Southern Baptists (that's how I grew up) in the early 90s. Somewhere along the line the whole organization became so politicized... it became less about fulfilling the mission Christ left us with and more about boycotting this and that. And, leadership just ASSUMED everyone was on board. WRONG!

This election was very similar... there are millions of people in the political wilderness right now because millions more feel they have to label themselves something. And both sides hate the other side. dissention, that is NOT the current administration's fault. That has been going on for decades, since the days of LBJ and Nixon. In many ways, you can blame it on Vietnam, which alienated an entire generation.

I posted (call it self-righteous if you will) to remind Blue Staters that there are people like me out there. Some voted for Bush, some voted for Kerry, more than a few voted for Nader (I personally know lots of people who did, even in ALABAMA!). And I find it hard to vote for the party whose platform I agree most with, because the people who end up running on it stomp it into nothingness.

My first non-Fleetwood Mac post (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=176861) was months ago and dissention warned me I would stick out like a sore thumb. Well, right on.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Something similar happened to Southern Baptists (that's how I grew up) in the early 90s. Somewhere along the line the whole organization became so politicized... it became less about fulfilling the mission Christ left us with and more about boycotting this and that. And, leadership just ASSUMED everyone was on board. WRONG!

This election was very similar... there are millions of people in the political wilderness right now because millions more feel they have to label themselves something. And both sides hate the other side. dissention, that is NOT the current administration's fault. That has been going on for decades, since the days of LBJ and Nixon. In many ways, you can blame it on Vietnam, which alienated an entire generation.

I posted (call it self-righteous if you will) to remind Blue Staters that there are people like me out there. Some voted for Bush, some voted for Kerry, more than a few voted for Nader (I personally know lots of people who did, even in ALABAMA!).

My first non-Fleetwood Mac post (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=176861) was months ago and dissention warned me I would stick out like a sore thumb. Well, right on.

I agree - I was laothe in many ways to vote for Kerry. In fact, in many ways, I voted against the only viable alternative to W, which was W.

Interestingly, I think trends historically fail once they get too much power. So, the pendulum will swing back - at least I hope.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Originally Posted by Patti

Several people that I spoke with over the last few months about the issue of gay marriage stated they were against it because "the bible says it's wrong". Honestly I don't remember ever hearing so many people quoting the bible in all my years of living here previously. I'm certainly not the most liberal member of this board, but living around all this "rightness" has made me more liberal every day.

They tend to forget the verses about the relationship between David and Jonathan.....

[wondergirl9847]

Someone famous, and I am blanking on his name right now ( ) said "Nobody falls into a simple set of labels."

[dissention]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

I posted (call it self-righteous if you will) to remind Blue Staters that there are people like me out there. Some voted for Bush, some voted for Kerry, more than a few voted for Nader (I personally know lots of people who did, even in ALABAMA!).

We have many people who post here from red states who aren't necessarily conservative. It's nice that you felt the need to remind us that not everyone is a religious nut job, but we already knew that.

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

My first non-Fleetwood Mac post (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=176861) was months ago and dissention warned me I would stick out like a sore thumb. Well, right on.

Anyone attracted to Minute Rice will stick out like a sore thumb, that's just a fact of life.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by takenbythesky

A few problems I have with the religious conviction people associate with President Bush:

-When church leaders tell their congregations how to vote, and their president states that he speaks for God, there is no separation of church and state-they're in bed together.

-By my way of thinking and researching, I do not believe President Bush nor Vice President Cheney to be morally commendable people.

-To me, not allowing gay couples civil unions or marriage is unchristian. Did not Jesus preach of love and tolerance? Aren't all people created equal, and doesn't everyone deserve the right to marriage?

...I do not loathe the Republican Party. I do not dislike Christianity. It just alarms me to see many of the things that make our country great crumbling under one President's terms in office. I have been to the Midwest and Southern United States on several occasions. As is always the case, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. Not everyone in the "red" states is a fervent Bush/Cheney maniac. There were people I talked to who were on "both sides of the coin" when I was in the South and the Midwest...

-Justin

Originally Posted by ontheEdgeof17

Now, I have formed my own beliefs on the concept of God, and I feel spiritually healthy. That's all that matters, right? Having a faith that carries you through the day.....

I'm done with people telling me what to do and how to act to be a Christian. Everyone thinks they are right and quite possibly they could not be. All I know is that God loves me....gay, liberal, and all.

I should just be a dittohead (oops, hope that didn't sound intolerant ), and nod my head to the above statements... but I'll add a few thoughts.

A very close friend of mine reminded me last night that liberals are often viewed as being elitist, and that's why more people tend to allign themselves with the Republican/conservative party, and I suppose that's true.
I know I often get frustrated when I explain something until I'm blue in the face, and yet people still don't "get it"... so I can see why some people just give up and write other people off as being "less enlightened."

To me, it seems simple... equal rights for EVERYONE, regardless of race, creed, religious persuasion, or romantic/sexual orientation.
So I get exasperated when others don't see it that way. I mean, what have you got to lose if others have the same rights as you?

And I get even more exasperated (and sometimes downright angry) when others claim they agree, but then turn around and vote for the very politicians who work so adamantly to limit our rights.
Maybe it's wrong of me to feel this way, but it seems somewhat two-faced.

But I don't look down on anyone. In fact, I often expect too much of people, and set myself up for major disappointment. I always feel people can be reasoned with, and that their sense of decency and fairness can be appealed to. So, man, am I ever let down when they prove me wrong.

I was raised Catholic, and have a decent knowledge about the bible, though I no longer consider myself a Catholic (despite the old "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" adage). Quite honestly, I have a hard time alligning myself with any organized religion, so I consider myself now to be "spiritual."
I believe in God, I follow the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule, and I try to uphold a consistency between my words and my deeds.
I sort of feel like I've "cut out the middle-man," so to speak. I don't need a preacher telling me how to live my life... he's just a human being with no more knowledge or wisdom than I have.

But, I don't look down on those who do go to church. They get something out of it, and more power to them.
We're headed towards the same goal... how we get there is somewhat less important.

The only problem I ever have in regards to "religious folk," is with the ones who CLAIM to be good people, but then use the bible and God to excuse their own ignorance and intolerance.
But certainly that does not apply to ALL people who attend church, or are Christian, etc.
It's just a select group... and, unfortunately, they tend to have the loudest mouths and, seemingly, the most influence. So, in turn, they're the ones who are most criticized.

And I can understand why many other Christians would feel that they're being looked down at in turn, because of the extremists.
I know perfectly well what it's like to be assumed you behave a certain way, simply because you fit a label.

But I know the score about myself, and everyone else can think whatever they want.
Assumptions made about me don't make me feel bad or guilty, unless they're true.

So if you feel you're being stereotyped unfairly, prove people wrong by your actions. The surest way to change minds is to lead by example.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

dissention, that is NOT the current administration's fault. That has been going on for decades, since the days of LBJ and Nixon. In many ways, you can blame it on Vietnam, which alienated an entire generation.

That's why I said this administration is largely responsible, nowhere did I say they were entirely responsible. Surely you, in all your wisdom, cannot deny that the current Republican party and the current administration have only exacerbated the disdainful divide between parties.

[strandinthewind]

Just to add fuel to the fire - take a look at the link below. The states that supported slavery or at least were tolerant of it - are not Republican states. I know it is an unfair comparison on many levels, but still . . .



http://sensoryoverload.typepad.com/s...tates_vs_.html

P.S. I know nothing of this site and thank them for the use of the maps.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Just to add fuel to the fire - take a look at the link below. The states that supported slavery or at least were tolerant of it - are not Republican states. I know it is an unfair comparison on many levels, but still . . .

http://sensoryoverload.typepad.com/s...tates_vs_.html

P.S. I know nothing of this site and thank them for the use of the maps.

Are you reading that map correctly, Jason? The red states supported slavery and the brown states were open to slavery. The green states were free states and territories.