Tusk v. SYW: What's Lindsey's Best Work?

[Cristian]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
But let's keep in mind that Tusk too had some very commercial songs: Sara and Thing About Me. They were few and far between, but they were there.

OK... "Think About Me", yes, but "Sara" is not very commercial. I remember a poster (I think it was you! ) saying a while ago that it was weird that "Sara", a very uncommercial song, without a chorus, had reached so high in the charts. If there is another commercial tune in Tusk that has to be "Sisters Of The Moon", which, just like "Think About Me", did not go anywhere as singles.

But that's a minor discussion. To me, in comparison, Tusk still remains Lindsey Buckingham's best approach in production. It's more energetic, more unique, if you should say. Christine's songs are taken in a way (except for "Think About Me") that blends perfectly with that "weirdness", and Stevie's songs are just the perfect addition to that mix. Say You Will showcases two songwriters, without that "bridge" that Christine's tunes had in Tusk, that bluesy/pop relax moment, with less tension and less strain. Say You Will just flows, and, while some of the songs are close to perfection, Tusk works better as a whole because Christine was there. My humble opinion.



Song of the moment - Say Goodbye

[myndpeace]

Originally posted by Cristian
Say You Will showcases two songwriters, without that "bridge" that Christine's tunes had in Tusk, that bluesy/pop relax moment, with less tension and less strain. Say You Will just flows, and, while some of the songs are close to perfection, Tusk works better as a whole because Christine was there. My humble opinion.

There's an interesting point here... a lot of people (my self included) have criticized Tusk for lacking integrity. While the individual songs are very well done and at times brilliant, the album itself does not come together as a cohesive whole. Lindsey's songs are loud, edgy, and experimental, whereas Stevie's are soft and dark. It is clear that Lindsey wanted to do something absolutely and completely un-Rumours-like, but if you just listen to Stevie's songs, all you hear is very Rumours-like songwriting with more advanced production.

SYW has a similar feel in that Lindsey writing edgy sociopolitical songs and Stevie sticking to her classic personal songs. But unlike on Tusk, SYW has Lindsey and Stevie not going in such diametrically opposite directions. I attribute this to the fact that Lindsey doesn't go nearly as crazy on SYW (WTWCT, Say Goodbye, SYHA) as he does on Tusk, while Stevie's songs on SYW(Illume, Everybody Finds Out) have a slightly harder edge to them than on Tusk.

One thing about Tusk is that it has a weird-for-weirdness-sake sort of feel to it, i.e. the "Why? Because I can" mentality concerning the production. I think that since then Lindsey has grown more mature in both his songwriting and production, losing that "rebel without a cause" attitude and using weird effects to make a point rather than just because he has the technology to. This makes SYW more cohesive and more accessible.

[Greta]

i'm not really sure which one i like better....they are both so similar, yet so different. SYW is definitely more commercial than Tusk. SYW also, IMO, isn't as risque as Tusk was. Sure, it has it's share of "weird" songs, but the entire album isn't totally out there. Tusk is brilliance....i love that fact that Lindsey made it as opposite to Rumours as possible. i think that Tusk, as a whole, pushed more buttons than SYW is going to. but there are certain parts to SYW that are just as deep/strong as the songs on Tusk. also, i think that not having Chris on SYW plays a part. Like Christian said, i think that Christine's songs on Tusk help lighten the mood a little and they tie the album together. i have to agree with the critics when i say that SYW feels kind of like 2 solo albums smashed together. not that that really matters; i still love it. so, i guess what i've been trying to say is that i think Tusk and SYW are both great,lol.

[ryan8472]

I really really like both of these albums, but i'm going to say Tusk is superior only because i'm a sucker for Lindsey's Tusk songs. I think they are magnificent! Not that his work on Say You Will is any less great, but Tusk (to me at least) sounds so cutting edge, even now, that I just love it.

[darklinensuit]

I like both, but I'll say Tusk. I think the starkness of style & irregularity of song structures make it more innovative from a production standpoint.
To me, the greatest difference between album styles was mentioned by an earlier poster. Stevie's Tusk songs are often dark and faint. She doesn't let loose vocally on any of them. Sara sounds almost effortless, as do her other songs (Sisters pushes the line, but doesn't cross from reflective to passionate). The SYW album sounds more commercial in this respect, with Stevie offering a broader range. I'm not sure if it's Lindsey or Stevie who is responsible for the difference in vocals between RTTG and Goodbye Baby.
BTW, to me Think about Me & Honey Hi are Tusk's most commercial pieces.

- Jake

[CarneVaca]

I'm coming to the conclusion that my biggest problem with SYW is its sheen. On some songs, especially Stevie's contributions, the 80s gloss is very present and, frankly, off-putting. If Lindsey had produced the songs more like Steal Your Heart Away and Say You Will, the whole album would have sounded better.

The production excesses of Running Through the Garden and Murrow, for instance, are turning a lot of people off. Add to that the indulgence of things like Come, and it's no wonder that the album is getting a fair amount of negative reaction. Mind you, I like Murrow, but I understand why a lot of people won't appreciate it.

I have also noticed that I have to fiddle with the treble button from song to song because of production differences in the tracks. For instance, Illume has a ch-ch cymbal sound that is a bit too upfront in the mix. Should have been toned down.

Ultimately, I think I will like Tusk better.

[Karen]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Add to that the indulgence of things like Come, and it's no wonder that the album is getting a fair amount of negative reaction. Mind you, I like Murrow, but I understand why a lot of people won't appreciate it.

You know...this has been on my mind quite a bit. I'd like to get some reactions on Come, because it's just so different from the songs Lindsey has created in the past. Did people have the same reaction to I'm So Afraid when it first came out?

It just seems more like a showcase of what he can do, rather than an expression. The guitar is the focal point, and the song is second place. I don't get it. Isn't this the opposite of what he's said about guitar players, such as Eddie Van Halen and others?

I'm really trying to be open about this song.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Karen
Did people have the same reaction to I'm So Afraid when it first came out?

I think ISA fit right in with the early to mid 70's heavy guitar rock and roll bands like Led Zepplin, Bread, etc. So, I do not think that song was an envelope pusher at the time.

As for Come, I like this song because I think it is very progressive and I particularly like the way he juxtaposes the heavy metal esq. guitar work and the softer parts of the song. Having said that, I do not care all that much for the way the lyrics are delivered because I do not in general care for voice manilpulation like this or really in any other way. But, LB seems to love it as he uses it all over SYW and has repeatedly used it in the past. All in all, I would give LB an A+ for the concept of Come and a C- for its ability to add in any significant way to a pop record like Say You Will.

Note: I know LB has said he loves to push envelopes and that he probably was not going for a pop record, but that is nonetheless what SYW is marketed as being. Moreover, he certainly wrote pop songs for this record (Peacekeeper, Steal Your Heart Away, Bleed to Love Her, Miranda (somewhat), etc.). So, I can get why the critics has dismissed appropriateness of some of the experimental/progressive songs like Come (which again I like).

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by myndpeace

One thing about Tusk is that it has a weird-for-weirdness-sake sort of feel to it, i.e. the "Why? Because I can" mentality concerning the production. I think that since then Lindsey has grown more mature in both his songwriting and production, losing that "rebel without a cause" attitude and using weird effects to make a point rather than just because he has the technology to. This makes SYW more cohesive and more accessible.

I feel the same way. I remember Richard Dashut saying that for Tusk, they would get the song to something that sounded terrific and then Lindsey would say "Great, now let's turn all the knobs the other way and do the exact opposite." He wasn't going for what sounded terrific, he was going for what sounded different.

That said, Tusk is certainly a great album. But I think the experimentaion in SYW makes a lot more sense and seems to be there to add meaning rather than to be "different" or "experimental." I think that's an important distinction.

I really love anything that rocks as hard as "Come" or "EFO," regardless of how people might describe them as "self-indulgent excessiveness" or "80s sounding." I don't buy either of those descriptions. I just know I like them.

[CarneVaca]

Nancy, what you like, what speaks to you, is what matters. To me, Tusk sounds timeless because it lacks that sheen. If you'd put it in a CD player in the early 90s when all the roots rockers were flooding the airwaves, it would have blended right in. Right now, we're going through a strange phase in radio, which I fear may have a permanent detrimental effect. But if you throw in a Tusk song or even a Rumours track, they will blend in too.

You can't really say that about Tango or Go Insane because of the gloss.

It seems to me it is the gloss in SYW to which people are reacting. I believe if it had been toned down for the whole album, more like Steal Your Heart Away and Say You Will, the reaction would be universally better.

Does it matter? From a sales point of view, probably. I like the album, regardless, but I would have dumped about three or four tracks.

[Karen]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
As for Come, I like this song because I think it is very progressive and I particularly like the way he juxtaposes the heavy metal esq. guitar work and the softer parts of the song. Having said that, I do not care all that much for the way the lyrics are delivered because I do not in general care for voice manilpulation like this or really in any other way. But, LB seems to love it as he uses it all over SYW and has repeatedly used it in the past. All in all, I would give LB an A+ for the concept of Come and a C- for its ability to add in any significant way to a pop record like Say You Will.

Oh, I so wish that I felt the same way as you and Nancy do about this song. I like most of his songs on Go Insane...or the songs that were considered envelope pushers at that time. I'm just finding it hard to appreciate this particular song for what it is. I'm really trying.

Overall, it's difficult to choose between Say You Will and Tusk. I like both albums for different reasons. Tusk will always be timeless. I guess we'll have to wait another 30 years to see how well Say You Will holds up.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Karen
Overall, it's difficult to choose between Say You Will and Tusk. I like both albums for different reasons. Tusk will always be timeless. I guess we'll have to wait another 30 years to see how well Say You Will holds up.

Also, I really got Stevie's reference to Tusk (song and album) as being a communal experience and a tribal thing of the tribe going to a sacred mountain, etc. I think that communal aspect is for good or bad missing on SYW. I mean although the songs were very different (esp. LB's songs), to me Tusk sounded like it had some common ground, theme, or feeling, which I think SYW does not have. Part of the reason for this could be that you can sort of hear it in that some of the songs on SYW sort of sound as if they were done at different times and then added to, and then tied together in one package as opposed to Tusk, which brilliantly sounds somewhat to me as if the songs sort of "suddenly" resulted from an all night, or, in the case of Tusk, year long, booze and pot smokin' hippie jam session

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind


Part of the reason for this could be that you can sort of hear it in that some of the songs on SYW sort of sound as if they were done at different times and then added to, and then tied together in one package as opposed to Tusk, which brilliantly sounds somewhat to me as if the songs sort of "suddenly" resulted from an all night, or, in the case of Tusk, year long, booze and pot smokin' hippie jam session

I was thinking about this. When you listen to SYW, you kind of jump off the 70s with What's the World Coming To, make a quick stop in the late 80s with Murrow, then jump to now with Illume. The album stays on a 90s-to-now feel until it hits Running Through the Garden and Silver Girl.

Songs that have a contemporary sound are Say You Will, Bleed to Love Her, Illume and Steal Your Heart Away. Years from now, these will be hard to place within a time context if you don't know when they came out. I would even say that for What's the World Coming To, despite its 70s-ish sound. Then you have the weirdo stuff, like Red Rover, Say Goodbye, etc. These may well become timeless songs, unless they become so closely identified with this time period, as the Tango songs became with theirs, that we'll always say, Oh, those are so 2003.

Time will tell. But I suspect the treatment Lindsey gave to things like Gotta Get Away, The Singer Not the Song, Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind and Twist of Fate might have given songs like Running Through the Garden a more contemporary feel.

Overall, what matters is if you enjoy the damn album.

[Karen]

Originally posted by strandinthewind


Also, I really got Stevie's reference to Tusk (song and album) as being a communal experience and a tribal thing of the tribe going to a sacred mountain, etc. I think that communal aspect is for good or bad missing on SYW. I mean although the songs were very different (esp. LB's songs), to me Tusk sounded like it had some common ground, theme, or feeling, which I think SYW does not have.

Yes, but in some ways this experience is similar to the making of SYW. In those studio clips leading up to the release of the album, you could definately see this tribal union between John, Mick, and Lindsey. They had this type of union during the making of Tusk...or maybe it just appeared that way.

[bucklind17]

I didn't get a chance to actually sit and listen to SYW, with my attention just on the music, until last night. The first thing that popped into my mind was that it was another Tusk. Not so much in that the songs sounded the same, but in that the idea was the same. Lindsey has his songs, which appear to feature mostly him, and they seem a little more inventive than the usual mainstream tune. Layered vocals, lots of interesting production ideas, etc. There is a big difference between the more mainstream songs on this album ("Peacekeeper" obviously, among others) and the ones that Lindsey just went off with ("Murrow Turning Over in His Grave" comes to mind for me). I can't say which is better because Tusk is my favorite FM album and I haven't had the chance to explore SYW very much at all yet, but I agree with the comparison of the two, because I see a similarity in Lindsey's song style in the two albums.