so, lindsey or stevie? who owns this album more?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm still not sure why people assume Stevie must have threatened Lindsey with a truncated tour, to somehow strong-arm him into releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album.

The documentary clearly shows that, once Warner Bros. promised the band that they'd be able to keep the list-price down to a reasonable level, Stevie's concerns about the double-album were alleviated, and she was then fine with the notion.

The other thing people seem to forget is that Lindsey wasn't the only one with a ton of material up for possible release.
She gave the band 17 songs for potential inclusion, and then brought another 4 with her when she finished her tour. At least 10 of those songs were fully recorded for the project... just slightly over half of which would have been released if they went with a 12-13 track album.

So why would she want to take the time and energy to record nearly an entire solo album's worth of tracks, to then force Lindsey into a single disc release? Especially when Warners promised to keep the cost down.
That would be cutting her nose off to spite her face.

If Warners said that the cost would be low to do a double, why then didn't they do it? Lindsey sure as hell wouldn't have said no.

Why would Stevie record a full album of material if she wanted a single disc? Because when most artists record an album, they don't just record an albums worth of material; they record more and then decide what they want to use. It's just common practice.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Les

Yes, Bel Air is expensive, but pulling these numbers out of the air isn't really a terribly concrete way to figure their expenses.

I am not pulling them out of thin air. I know the rental rate in Bel Air - just not on that particular house. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Les

Perhaps Mick is disappointed then.

Along with WB I can assure you Do you really think WB jumped for joy when SYW failed to produce a hit single and did not sell at least a million copies I mean come on, what do you think FM sold them on, the hope of selling only 800,000 copies

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Read between the lines there too. He says normally the writer is contacted, implying that doesn't always happen. In this case we are talking about a somewhat more complex scenario, involving a writer, a recording artist and a producer. But there are cases in which the producer and artist/songwriter share writing credit.

In more straight-forward cases, producers often get songwriting credit for minor tweaks. For instance, Glen Ballard got co-writing credit for every single song on Alanis Morisette's Jagged Little Pill. Do you think he sat with her from the songs' inception through the creation of the chord structure and melody for every song? I doubt it. Most likely she brought him songs at different stages of completion and he grabbed some songwriting credit for himself. This scenario is quite common actually, so I'm a little surprised you're not familiar with it.

I actually commented on this, based on one of Jason's posts, before I saw this one from you.

Like I said, there are instances when a producer insists upon having a writing credit... usually it's a powerful producer with an upstart artist/songwriter.

In regards to Alanis Morisette, she has sole credit for the lyrics, but shares the credit with Glen Ballard for the music.
Maverick wanted a big launch for Alanis, and it's not hard to imagine that Alanis and Glen actually physically wrote the music on these songs together before production began in earnest. After all, the folks at Maverick purposely put the two together with the intention of them collaborating.

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I have to call unfair on this, Johnny. You always seem to want to generalize. You seem to have trouble distinguishing from folks who plain hate Stevie and others, like me, who like some of her work but are not crazy about a good deal of it. It's almost like you can't accept that it's OK to only like some of her work. I merely suggested that bringing a near-finished song to Lindsey to produce might prevent him from being as creative with it as he otherwise would. Maybe, maybe not. Besides, I have no problem with Stevie giving him piano demos that he arranges into beautiful songs. It worked beautifully in the old days. Interestingly, those are the songs that I find a lot more appealing than her more current stuff. I don't see why that is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation.

It's perfectly fine by me if some folks don't like all of Stevie's work. I can accept that.

dissention dislikes a number of Stevie's songs, and while I might not agree with some of dis' opinions, it doesn't bother me if we don't see eye to eye.

You pondered that perhaps Stevie was "limiting" Lindsey by bringing in a fully realized song, and I don't understand why that would be so.
Add to that, the fact that a few posts prior, you implied that only Lindsey has "the true spirit of cooperation," and a very real bias shows thru.

We talk about "artistic vision" fairly often around here, and Stevie's artistic visions are just as valid as Lindsey's.
And certainly he still takes the songs and runs with them, so I don't see how Stevie could be limiting him in any way. It's not as if she has said, "here, the song is done... I recorded it at home. It's exactly the way I want it, so don't make any changes, and put it on the record just like it is."
She still considers it a demo, and still seems to put her complete trust in Lindsey to make it even more wonderful, by doing the voodoo that he do so well.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I don't remember Lindsey commenting on "Thrown Down," but I know that Stevie was the one who said that it was recorded three different times and three different ways, and that "the third time was the charm."

Lindsey specifically said that TD was one of his faves on the album because it was the one that he had the most input on. I'll try to find the article.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

It made me wonder if perhaps she is not restricting the development of the song in some ways. When you bring a producer like Lindsey a near-finished product, it's gotta be somewhat limiting to his creative process. Were I he, I would view it that way.

:: sighs heavily :: Stevie can't win! She's either making Lindsey do all the work with her skeletal demos, or not allowing him to do enough with her almost-complete demos.

Smile at You was pretty complete, too. Lindsey sure didn't feel compelled to leave that one alone - if only he had! It was one of the very rare cases where his influence was actually detrimental, IMHO (admittedly, this is far outweighed by all the times he HAS enriched Stevie's songs significantly, as in "Thrown Down" on SYW, for instance.)

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think they are still touring to pay for the advance WB gave, pay for the recording of the record, and to make money for themselves. Clearly, SYW did not sell near what WB paid in expectance of and/or WB has lost money on it. I mean no one in their right minds spends at least a million and most likely over two million (LB recorded for well over five years ) to make a record that sells only 800,000 copies. Then, the alleged $750,000 (?) per concert guarantee for the principles. So, I think that was the 40 date deal. In other words, WB wants to make their money and can only do so via the touring and Stevie may have not wanted to tour for over 40 dates - but she has wound up doing so. But, I have no proof of that. It is just a feeling.

They've toured long enough to pay any debts, doll. Stevie and Lindsey stand to make quite a pretty penny on this tour, especially with the outrageous ticket prices. Cripes, how many shows have made over a million, almost two?

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by teedee

you have no problem with stevie bringing in a piano demo, but if she brings in a near finished demo, Houston there is a problem. I think we can accept that ppl like some of her songs,maybe even none of her songs , and some ppl like some of his songs... it just seems that you( Carne) cant accept when ever someone states something about lindsey , its one thing to state your opinion, but its another to always try to justify the matter in a one way situation. These are two individuals that compliment one another whether you want to accept that or not. i myself think lindsey is a great producer of her work, but that doesnt make me think less of her solo work one bit. you can go on and on about how the guitar riffs influenced you to appreciate a stevie song, but its kind of TEEDious as you would say, lol..to always have to remark that thats the only reason you like a song.. All i know if i was a fan of FM and I had such a problem with listening to half the songs on an album by the other writer in a group,as do you do, i cant help but feel what a waste of time it must be for you to sit thru a 2.5 hour concert and only hear an hour or so of what you want to hear or to have to skip half the songs on a cd....

Here's some advice for you: A sentence starts with a capital letter, i.e., A instead of a. Also, see this thing after the question mark? . That's called a "period." That's how a sentence ends. Try it out. Otherwise stop wasting your time replying to my posts.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by Les

I think it's because of a few things:

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

What would not be a thread for sure...Stevie might have said: "Okay you may eat that money, and plan a lot of touring and another album to cach up again financially but I can't guarantee you that I will be present over such a big period of time: I don't know if my body lets me tour for over a year, and hey, we're fleetwood mac, so we will never know what sh*t is going to happen inside the bandpolitics. So, do it, but take responsibility for your own actions."

In other words: I don't want to interfere, boy, but get real and keep things healthy over here. Make it a single.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

So, how is Warner's going to make their money from the favorable advance back? There is only one way and that is touring, which has been successful as far as I can see.

I doubt that they gave that great of an advance. Just looking at Stevie's last solo albums numbers and the fact that Chris wasn't involved, common sense says that they didn't think it would go platinum, so I highly doubt the advance was as large as you believe.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

:: sighs heavily :: Stevie can't win! She's either making Lindsey do all the work with her skeletal demos, or not allowing him to do enough with her almost-complete demos.

I just love the reactions around here. I challenge you to quote back to me any words I've ever used to knock Stevie for bringing Lindsey her piano demos. Never happened.

Nor was I necessarily saying that she SHOULDN'T bring him near-finished product. I was merely speculating on whether it inhibits his creativity. Is that such a sin? If speculation were outlawed on these boards, a lot of people around here, including you, would have very little to say.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

They've toured long enough to pay any debts, doll. Stevie and Lindsey stand to make quite a pretty penny on this tour, especially with the outrageous ticket prices. Cripes, how many shows have made over a million, almost two?

it depends - did WB sell their rights to the rev. from the shows ahead of time to the show's producers? I am unsure there was that much $$$$ to go around after the much ballyhooed $750,000 guarantee. I mean the trucking companies, the stage hands, the back up players, the venue, etc. all get paid first. But, I could be wrong as I do not know the exact numbers per show. Are they listed on that site you found the other day?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Do you really think WB jumped for joy when SYW failed to produce a hit single and did not sell at least a million copies I mean come on, what do you think FM sold them on, the hope of selling only 800,000 copies

They had one of their biggest singles (along with Landslide) in over 15 years with Peacekeeper, but that's not even worth mentioning. Warners wasn't expecting a hit single, look at the music industry! And I'm positive that they got the sales they were expecting.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

I doubt that they gave that great of an advance. Just looking at Stevie's last solo albums numbers and the fact that Chris wasn't involved, common sense says that they didn't think it would go platinum, so I highly doubt the advance was as large as you believe.

But, clearly, my numbers regarding production cost are not that far off

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Les

1. There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had.

2. Mick says that during that final argument over the album, there was something that happened that threatened to make their touring schedule far shorter than originally planned.

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

It wasn't in the documentary, but several of the articles and interviews published shortly before and after the release of the album, stated that the band had some major arguments about the running order, and that things got pretty heated between Stevie and Lindsey because of it.
Lindsey himself even stated that, at that point in time, he felt that Stevie was seeing the album in a less-than-positive way because of those particular arguments.

But, up to that time, it seemed to have been a done deal, as far as all parties concerned, that they were releasing a double album. And I'm merely pointing out that I don't believe Lindsey's concern about Stevie pulling out after 40-dates, was based on her trying to strong-arm him into releasing it as a single disc.

Originally Posted by Les

I haven't watched it again recently, but I don't remember any mention that Warner Bros. was doing anything to keep the album's cost down. It seemed it was Lindsey who was offering to absorb costs to keep the album's price down, not them. I also don't really recall seeing Stevie ever say that she was happy with the double idea. But that may just be my memory.

Perhaps it was edited out of the later broadcasts, but at one point Stevie clearly says that Warner Bros. has come back to them with the promise that they could keep the price down, and that she's now comfortable with the idea of a double-album.

Lindsey was offering to absorb the publishing costs, because the band would only get paid up to 12 songs... which would not have been in Warners' control, and has nothing to do with the retail price for the album.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

They had one of their biggest singles (along with Landslide) in over 15 years with Peacekeeper, but that's not even worth mentioning. Warners wasn't expecting a hit single, look at the music industry! And I'm positive that they got the sales they were expecting.

Perhaps they broke even or made a little money, but nothing like I think they all thought it could be. I mean, if this record had been released 15 years ago, it would have sold millions. Moreover, FM has nothing to sell but its name. And given the talent of the lawyers/managers involved (esp. La Nicks' people) they did not sell cheap - why should they?