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  #46  
Old 08-21-2013, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CADreaming View Post
But Stevie brought Sheryl Crow in and she was on more than one song. Maybe that was where Stevie started to dislike the project more - when her hopes of Sheryl replacing Christine didn't quite pan out as she hoped.
See I'm a bit controversial here. Unlike other Mac fans I think it is possible to have a record which is "Fleetwood Mac feat. Sheryl Crow" rather than Sheryl being an actual replacement for Christine. She does not have to join the band to contribute to their music, yes she played vibraphone or some keyboard instrument on Say You Will, backing vocals on Silver Girl and keyboards again on that song too.

If Lindsey was not so proud Sheryl Crow may very well have felt comfortable to contribute to the record more. She was brought in by Stevie as one of Stevie's friends and professional associate. All Mumma Nicks wanted clearly was to have a gal pal in the band to support her and make the whole process a little more relaxed and enjoyable while recording for Say You Will (2003).

She did not achieve this, and not because Crow was unwilling to contribute more to the record, but because there was ... it would seem...resistance from the Buckingham. Mick in some comments about Crow said "it would have been interesting". Lindsey said "What's she going to be doing? She's not going to be singing Christine songs. She's certainly not going to be singing Sheryl Crow songs"

But if Sheryl Crow wants to co-write with Stevie, or even just write a song on her own to perform with Stevie I wish they would just do it. Even if it does not come with the Fleetwood Mac tagline - these two are gorgeous and just amazing artists.

Anxiously anticipating Feels Like Home by Sheryl Crow to be released in just under a month's time, I am!
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  #47  
Old 08-21-2013, 10:45 AM
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No where have I ever read where Lindsey said he wanted a second guitarist. He always had Ray Lindsey playing for him right behind a big amp when he needed assistance.
I know Christine said Lindsey wanted more guitar for a fuller sound too. I never heard Lindsey say he did, although you see the guitar army he had for OOTC, so he might have wanted it for that FM tour. I don't know. Of course, Lindsey made fun of them for having two guitarists to replace him, so who knows. But Christine said that had been his plan.

Michele
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  #48  
Old 08-21-2013, 11:53 AM
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I know Christine said Lindsey wanted more guitar for a fuller sound too. I never heard Lindsey say he did, although you see the guitar army he had for OOTC, so he might have wanted it for that FM tour. I don't know. Of course, Lindsey made fun of them for having two guitarists to replace him, so who knows. But Christine said that had been his plan.

Michele
That sort of sounds like it wasn't really a surprise then. Is it possible he had told them all along he wasn't doing the tour and maybe they thought they could twist his arm?
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  #49  
Old 08-21-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by louielouie2000 View Post
No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.
I really agree with this and never gave the Steve/Christine dynamic in the studio a second thought. I've always known Stevie misses her "big sister" on stage but the studio thing is something entirely different. And yes, I completely agree that it's a big part of the reason there hasn't been a Fleetwood Mac in more than a decade. I think the recording of SYW and subsequent tour left a lasting impression on Stevie.

It also makes me think about her recent comments about telling Lindsey she was sorry and how she felt about things, in the recent Aussie interview. I always assume she's talking about things that happened over 30 years ago when they broke up. But now I thinking that maybe a lot of the issues that S&L are coming to terms with are more recent, say in the past 15 or so years.

So this is a great thread! Thanks for everyone's opinions, insights and speculations.
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  #50  
Old 08-21-2013, 07:03 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CADreaming View Post
That sort of sounds like it wasn't really a surprise then. Is it possible he had told them all along he wasn't doing the tour and maybe they thought they could twist his arm?
I think it's more of a thing where you work up your courage to do something and you just don't. You kind of cop out. I think Lindsey dragged his feet and they all knew he was reluctant and he tried to tell them indirectly, but didn't say the words to them. The farther he let it go, the harder it was. It's like waiting until the wedding day to back out of marriage, even though you knew you weren't really into it 3 months ago. Michele
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  #51  
Old 08-21-2013, 10:26 PM
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No where have I ever read where Lindsey said he wanted a second guitarist. He always had Ray Lindsey playing for him right behind a big amp when he needed assistance.
Mick and Christine did an interview that came out around Christmas, 1987 for a magazine. I don't remember what it was called (although, I do remember something about Christine having a bumper sticker that said "I Break for Penguins"), and a color copy of this picture was on the cover.



In the interview, they said that Lindsey said that he wanted a second full-time guitarist. I think this is the interview where Mick hinted that it probably would have been Billy Burnette. I even asked Billy about that on his Q&A on here, and he confirmed that Mick had said that at one point.
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  #52  
Old 08-21-2013, 10:47 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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This is what Christine said:

http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.ph...v2&id=859&c=18

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With Buckingham gone, two guitarists--Rick Vito and Billy Burnette--have been added to the touring lineup. Both players have known the other Mac members for years, and, according to McVie, “They fit in perfectly. Billy’s mainly playing rhythm, which is refreshing and really fills out the sound. When we talked with Lindsey about touring and augmenting the band, he was planning on having more people--maybe four guitarists and six percussionists.”
Four guitarists? Maybe Lindsey left because he was ashamed. Maybe he said to himself, "My guitar playing just sucks. I better hire as many more guitarists as possible, because I am really bringing this band down."

Michele
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  #53  
Old 08-22-2013, 11:30 AM
Deeshere Deeshere is offline
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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post
This is what Christine said:

http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.ph...v2&id=859&c=18



Four guitarists? Maybe Lindsey left because he was ashamed. Maybe he said to himself, "My guitar playing just sucks. I better hire as many more guitarists as possible, because I am really bringing this band down."

Michele
In several interviews Mick said Lindsey was making all sorts of demands about wanting more guitarists and adding percussionists to the TITN tour. All of which the band agreed to.

I think Lindsey was making large demands from the band hoping the band would say no to them which would give him an excuse he could use to explain why he would not tour with them. No way do I think Lindsey ever thought his guitar playing sucked. (if you don't like it, you just don't have the ears for it )

The problem was the band gave into all his demands trying to get him to go on tour, so he was eventually cornered and had to just come out and tell them he was leaving the band which lead to the huge 1987 blow up.

I also wonder how Lindsey would feel if Chris did decide to rejoin the band. I am sure they would all let her, but I get the feeling that Lindsey would not be too happy about it. He's made a point over the years of talking about how much happier he is with the sound of their music and how it sounds more edgy without Chris's piano playing.

Plus I was surprised that in interviews over the years he's mentioned how he felt that Chris and Stevie pushed each other to leave their respective partners, and that he felt that if Stevie did not have Chris there to commiserate with, he and Stevie might have worked things out. It seemed to me that he had a touch of bitterness about it (maybe towards Chris? I don't know) other wise why even bring the subject up.

Last edited by Deeshere; 08-22-2013 at 11:32 AM..
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  #54  
Old 08-22-2013, 11:54 AM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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Plus I was surprised that in interviews over the years he's mentioned how he felt that Chris and Stevie pushed each other to leave their respective partners, and that he felt that if Stevie did not have Chris there to commiserate with, he and Stevie might have worked things out. It seemed to me that he had a touch of bitterness about it (maybe towards Chris? I don't know) other wise why even bring the subject up.
I think he was upset that Chris did not join them for SYW. If she wanted to come back, not for this tour, but for the next one, I think he would be excited. He might have fewer songs on stage, but she wouldn't press him to cut ISA or anything like that. Plus, she's been writing songs and so has she and she would make it possible for him to have the new album that Stevie has been resisting. She would help him to get around Stevie and the band could promote the whole thing as her last tour with the band and make more money.

As for Lindsey in 1987, I don't think he was making unreasonable demands for the Tango tour. I think he was going for the layered sound that he wanted for his own OOTC tour later. I think he was trying to envision something similar to that for FM's tour and that he still kept that goal in mind when he planned his OOTC tour, although he didn't have FM's budget.

Michele
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  #55  
Old 08-22-2013, 01:02 PM
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As for Lindsey in 1987, I don't think he was making unreasonable demands for the Tango tour. I think he was going for the layered sound that he wanted for his own OOTC tour later.
I don't, either, and the band pretty much met all of those demands even without him touring. They had the percussionist, the background singers, two full-time guitarists, and even Ray Lindsey chiming in on "Go Your Own Way."

What has always bothered me is how he said things like "I think it's funny that they had to get two guitarists to replace me."
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  #56  
Old 08-22-2013, 01:21 PM
Deeshere Deeshere is offline
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Yeah, I really get all that. I still think its absurd to think its absurd of Lindsey to have that emotion. One day when my addict brother dies, I'm sure my anger at him and his addiction will lessen, but as angry as I am now and as hard as I have to be in order not to play enabler, I'm still - everyday- frightened he might die. Or maybe more frightened that that day will be today.

So, I don't care what year it was or what day even it was or even if he doesn't want to admit it 25 years later in an interview. Lindsey was certainly afraid/frightened about Stevie dying. And, a lot of other people were too.

First of all Dee I want to say I am sorry about the problems you are having with your brother. I hope things get better for both of you soon.

Secondly, why don't we let Lindsey and Stevie explain why Lindsey left the band back in 1987. Here are the direct quotes from the January 2013 Rolling Stone Interview.

Buckingham: I took off in '87 because –

Nicks: You quit.

Buckingham: [Nods] I quit because things were getting a little too crazy, and I wanted to try to get my feet back on the ground. We did Clinton's inauguration in '93, and that was sort of the catalyst and had a delayed reaction. I think by the time you cut to '96, when we contemplated doing The Dance, there had been enough time where we all settled down as people. The craziness that existed in '87 and '88 was gone. We were – for all intents and purposes – adults. I think the time apart helped us appreciate each other. The group has always been a group of people you can say maybe didn't belong in the same band together, but it's the synergy that makes it so magical. We were able to see that more clearly.

Lindsey had hesitated in the past to come back, so did something get resolved?
Buckingham: There were a number of false starts where I was trying to make solo albums. They would get constantly folded into group efforts. In retrospect I can say fair enough that you call yourself a band member and you've got to step up to the plate when the need arises. So that was an issue I had for a number of years that has come and gone. I am more appreciative of the fact that we know each other, we've been through so much together and we are really family.

Nicks: What else happened is I went into rehab on December 12th, 1993 and came out on the 27th of January – 47 days to come off of Klonopin. I nearly died. And I think one of the reasons that Lindsey left is because I was very, very high on this horrific tranquilizer. I didn't even make it to most of the recording sessions for [1987's] Tango in the Night. I was sick. And I think he was horribly worried that I was going to die. That's one of the reasons you [turns to Buckingham] wanted to quit. We had this huge tour and it was booked. We were at Chris' house and [Lindsey] stood up and said "I quit," and I – being so high and so messed up – just raged across the room and I wanted to kill him.

When I came out of rehab, I did a small three-month tour, and I got through it. I was going to be OK, and everyone knew I was going to be OK. And I think that's when Lindsey thought Fleetwood Mac could go on, because his beloved ex-girlfriend was not going to die. She was going to make it.

So everything since then has been different from what it was before?
Buckingham: It's still evolving, and that's the beauty of it too. I've known Stevie since high school. We were a couple for many, many years, and we've been a musical couple forever. After all this time you would think there was nothing left to discover, nothing left to work out, no new chapters to be written. But that is not the case – there are new chapters to be written. It's quite extraordinary.



Lindsey says there were several reasons that he quit the band (that's obviously true) and I know Stevie over dramatizes things a lot, BUT Stevie point blank called him out in front of the interviewer and said that he told her that one of the reasons he quit the band was because he was "horribly worried" she was going to die. Lindsey DID NOT correct her and say she was wrong or was overstating what he said to her (and you know if Lindsey thought she was wrong he would have corrected her) so that leads me to believe that Stevie is telling the truth about what he said to her.

Plus Lindsey said in later (I think 1992) interviews that he was so upset about what was going on in the band during TITN and trying to decide if he should leave the band or not that he started to talk to other people (to get some prospective on what was going on) and even went to see a psychologist to talk about what was going on in the band. To me he must have had some pretty serious issues about what was going on and it would seem that those issues would be much bigger than him not liking the musical direction of the band or the fact that his solo works kept getting folded up into Fleetwood Mac albums.

I attribute a large part of his problem (though I am sure not all of it) to being the fact that he did think Stevie was going to die. He has said that in his past experience that when the band get's out on the road, the drug use is 10 times worse than in the studio, so if Stevie was already so messed up she could hardly function in the studio. I'm sure he believed she would die if they went out and toured. I think him leaving was maybe a way that he could either try and stop the tour or at the very least not have to be a part of (or) have to watch someone he loves die.

In the Sunday times interview I think Lindsey ego is the reason he down played what was said and also Stevie was not there to call him out on anything said and I'm sure she would have.

Last edited by Deeshere; 08-22-2013 at 01:25 PM..
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  #57  
Old 08-22-2013, 01:24 PM
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In several interviews Mick said Lindsey was making all sorts of demands about wanting more guitarists and adding percussionists to the TITN tour. All of which the band agreed to.

I think Lindsey was making large demands from the band hoping the band would say no to them which would give him an excuse he could use to explain why he would not tour with them. No way do I think Lindsey ever thought his guitar playing sucked. (if you don't like it, you just don't have the ears for it )

The problem was the band gave into all his demands trying to get him to go on tour, so he was eventually cornered and had to just come out and tell them he was leaving the band which lead to the huge 1987 blow up.

I also wonder how Lindsey would feel if Chris did decide to rejoin the band. I am sure they would all let her, but I get the feeling that Lindsey would not be too happy about it. He's made a point over the years of talking about how much happier he is with the sound of their music and how it sounds more edgy without Chris's piano playing.

Plus I was surprised that in interviews over the years he's mentioned how he felt that Chris and Stevie pushed each other to leave their respective partners, and that he felt that if Stevie did not have Chris there to commiserate with, he and Stevie might have worked things out. It seemed to me that he had a touch of bitterness about it (maybe towards Chris? I don't know) other wise why even bring the subject up.
While I do think Lindsey was dreaming of escaping the band after recording Tango, I don't think he was trying to get fired/make unreasonable demands as a scapegoat. My guess is he was simply trying to relieve some stress by having people help him out onstage. Plus, that person(s) could help insulate him from the band members which he wasn't getting along with at that point (ie: all of them). There are a lot of things you can say about Lindsey (in the past), but I don't think you can say he's ever cared for anything more than the quality/style of the music he's putting out. Be that music recorded, or live. He's very much a purist when it comes to his craft. He may play good cop/bad cop to get his way, but generally speaking, I think (in his mind at least), it's always for the betterment of the songs.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:37 PM
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he didn't have FM's budget

Michele
That's very true . He said he had to pay for all those extra guitarist out of his own pocket and that his accountants wouldn't let him do that again.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:15 PM
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While I do think Lindsey was dreaming of escaping the band after recording Tango, I don't think he was trying to get fired/make unreasonable demands as a scapegoat. My guess is he was simply trying to relieve some stress by having people help him out onstage. Plus, that person(s) could help insulate him from the band members which he wasn't getting along with at that point (ie: all of them). There are a lot of things you can say about Lindsey (in the past), but I don't think you can say he's ever cared for anything more than the quality/style of the music he's putting out. Be that music recorded, or live. He's very much a purist when it comes to his craft. He may play good cop/bad cop to get his way, but generally speaking, I think (in his mind at least), it's always for the betterment of the songs.

I agree that lindsey is a purist and is always striving for the betterment of the songs, and like Michele said he was headed in the direction of layered sound, but speaking from a strictly monetarily point of view, at the time of TITN, Fleetwood Mac already had pretty large back up band and adding more musicians to the tour would only cut into the bands profits even more.

I know Lindsey is willing to sacrifice money to the good of the music, but he's well aware that the band is not. So it stands to reason that asking for more guitarist more percussionist most likely would not be well revived by the rest of the band and I think he was hoping they would say no to his demands which would give him an excuse to leave or maybe fire him (though I can't see that would ever have happened), but they didn't do it. They agreed because they knew he close to leaving the band, so he had to quit.

If all he wanted was more musicians, so he could create his layered sound or make the sound bigger, or better, he got it. The band agreed to ALL his demands and he STILL would not tour with them.

Obviously, the music was not his main concern or he would have done the TITN tour. That is why I said him making a lot of demands for the TITN tour was one of the ways he was trying to get out.
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Old 08-22-2013, 04:34 PM
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I saw the OTTC tour and it was fantastic. I have to say however: I disagree with Lindsey wanting all those extra musicians for Fleetwood Mac shows. I love the rawness of the previous tours, the harmonies, keying in on who is playing what. What has made them such a great band is that each of the instrumentalists are odd players and singers. They strangely gelled together so well. It's what made them so fresh and unique. Even the Bob Welch days worked because each of them had weird playing styles and vocals.

As for LB being afraid for Stevie's health... I totally buy that's a major part of it. And he is totally justified in wanting to get away from that behavior. Especially when he is doing a huge amount of the work.

As for LB and Christine. I simply think he took it hard and was not happy about her leaving. 1. He didn't understand it. 2. He'd just come back and gotten used to FM again.

But the guy that he is, he had to make it work without Christine, and musically he looked at the positives and opportunities. But as we've seen, Christine's absence has been a huge hole for them. SYW is lacking, and that famous blend of magic is a bit less without the 5 of them. And while I love them to death, their voices have aged to the point of making them very less exciting.

In 1987 they did continue without him and I thought Christine was the one that shined live on the Shacking and BTM tours. But when you add session musicians to the weirdness of those guys it becomes a tad boring and almost forced to my ears.

Christine you're lonely, Lindsey you want another album, Stevie, you want another woman...

...Fine Go back to The Chateau in France where Mirage was recorded and spend a month or two together for the last album. Do like Pink Floyd and do NY, Chicago, Toronto, Los Angeles, and add Honolulu. Another FM album with the FAB FIVE will sell if promoted properly. Problem solved.
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