The Sunday Times: Excess all areas

[secret love]

Originally Posted by vivfox

Excellent article. I'm guessing the falling out between Lindsey and Stevie in 2003 was the result of Stevie not being happy with Lindsey's productions of her SYW songs.

Obviously I support this view too. That is all on the public record in Destiny Rules doco. And just ...Stevie's body language in interviews of the Say You Will era, some of the things she said. When Stevie Nicks says something that she does not believe to be true, when she tells a lie - it is just obvious. She wears her heart on her sleeve so you can tell when she says "It's heavy, isn't it?" bout SYW album, yes it is heavy. But you know she choose Illume as her favourite song from the album in some interview (or possibly that was Mick's favourite song).

The problem is we can't know the full story because Stevie doesn't want to dwell on it - SYW - nor does Lindsey. He thinks it turned out great, because his GOS1 songs were awesome I must admit (though some of the lyrics are cliched, I just cannot give his music playing/guitars poor critique) - and 7 of the 16 or so songs intended for GOS1 ended up being released, owned by and sold under the guise of "Fleetwood Mac".

I think Lindsey ...this is only my hunch...he probably doesn't care how his music is released provided his creative vision is fulfilled. He may have had his most successful solo album ever with GOS1 but instead he got to help Fleetwood Mac achieve ~800000 sales (0.8 million) with Say You Will. I'd say it's possibly more than that. It achieved Gold status but the sales figures have not been recorded/reported for a long time now, so it could actually have achieved platinum sales over the last ten years.

And it is probably difficult for Lindsey to let go of some anger that the best music he has ever produced was not compiled into one "artpiece" or "artwork" or whatever. But here's the reality kids: I can make the intended playlist of GOS1 using SYW songs and GOS2 and I get not the same thing, but music with a gorgeous soothing contralto female voice on the recording too. Plus Mick. Plus John laying down the bass lines, and black keys might I add on Syw.

Anyways...why write all this? Lindsey is big enough and ugly enough to accept now all that his job entails! He does not care any more about how he got ripped off in SYW by losing his rights to make GOS1 and be a really successful solo artist for the first time ever (meaning: similar to Stevie's star power/solo work income). And Stevie does not resent Lindsey for having smaller, more intimate solo work experiences. She got that with Dave Stewart and In Your Dreams, she worked first with Dave and her bandmates Waddy, the girls Lori and the other girl. Some other people too of course. In 2010. Then she released her record and she "personally sold" it to 300000 people.

And she was NOT dissatisfied with the album sales of IYD. The journalist who said she was needs to watch the interview she said this in, in context. It's like 15 min and he used a 15 second soundbite to write that Nicks was unhappy with her album sales. Not true. She does not care. Why would she? She's rich. She doesn't have to make money any more. She has investments and financially trained people to help her maintain those investments to secure her income. She wanted to make a record she liked, on her own terms, with Dave. And she did.

It's just four adults doing a job together these days I'd say. Four adults who all adore each other.

[Ulpian]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, you're right.



I thought she was surrounded by not only her brother, but nieces and nephews and their offspring visiting all the time. I know she probably felt when her dad died, she hadn't spent the time with him that she should have and she didn't want that to happen with the rest of the family, but find a happy medium.

Well, she has that place in London still, I imagine. Maybe when she goes there she can reconnect with people. But yes, after 2 years, if I found myself feeling lonely, I definitely would have changed up how much time I spent there. Go there when you want to unplug, but don't live there full time.

Michele

Agreed. I'd be in that London apartment during the weekend and maybe out in the countryside a few weekdays to recharge.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

If you're lonely... write some music!!

Mick said she was, after Hawaii. We just have to find something for her to do with it!

Michele

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

If you're lonely... write some music!!

Yesssssssssss! And record it.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by MikeInNV

I'm not sure I would say dawdled. She was genuinely busy releasing, promoting, and touring behind TISL. Beginning with Mirage, the band has always taken advantage of the fact that they can get some of the work done without Stevie, and then incorporate her stuff when time allows. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial to have her there for all the sessions (Tango would have been better), but it seems as much a band decision as it does hers.

No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.

[secret love]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.

Absolutely. Could not have said it better myself. My heart just broke when I say Stevie bring in the beautiful dream catcher on her first day in 2002 in the recording studio for Say You Will - because all the blokes were rolling their eyes at her and they did take the piss out of her a little bit. "Stevie we've been her the past 6 months trying to..." I don't want to misquote Mick but he said they had been there so long trying to pretend she was there - make the songs in her key I guess which I think is D major. Well Rhiannon was originally in D major if my memory serves me correctly. Anyone: what key are majority of Stevie's songs in?

And then Stevie said "good news is I wrote four songs. And I tried to write them as though you guys were there. You weren't there but it was like you were, ya know?" So the whole band obviously tries to do things apart and then get together and nail it down as quick as they feel is practical to avoid the squabbles.

Also it is somewhat of a Lindsey Buckingham signature thing that in his production of songs....well not just Lindsey but the band....they layer their vocals like you say and almost always have done (for the last 30 years at least).

Yes, it is true Stevie lost an ally in Christine. Supposedly the whole song Say You Will was written for Christine's benefit .....but I don't know if that's just a Rumour pun intended or an acutal fact from Stevie's mouth.

I do not know why it took Fleetwood Mac 36 years to finally get along and I sincerely wish for all my family and friends that our working lives will be much more pleasant than that. Yes they always loved each other and yes they "pushed the wrong buttons" (Mick) but there is no excuse for 36 years of that. It is bitter, angry, self-indulgent and excessive, poisonous for all people involved.

I'm just happy that the four of them are getting along now so finally....Christine feels ok to pop up on stage....also her life is her's now. I don't think the same can be said for Stevie and am willing to bet Nicks has a lot more "people"/minders than C. McVie...! And that's sad, because Stevie always wanted to look after people and have a family and be a mother, have a long term relationship but it never worked out for her. It worked for Chris twice, but failed eventually with John and Eddy. And Chris clearly did not want children. I have a distinct feeling that Stevie did, but it was not possible, and by the way I'm a nursing student: most sexually active women will have at least one miscarriage in their life that they don't even notice (ever been a week late? or two? and then you were fine?). That's because the pregnancy is not viable so the body spontaneously aborts it before the foetus develops.

I know people find it taboo, but just simply, I think Stevie may have wanted children and that many opportunities came up but her health was so poor (e.g. Klonopin and cocaine) that a pregnancy probably would have ended because of her poor health and substance misuse if she ever was pregnant. And I think she absolutely believe this "Destiny Rules" thing. It's not about "spirits are ruthless" - it is about how destiny/fate gets in the way and if she had not joined Fleetwood Mac she probably would have stayed together with Lindsey, had a family and still worked as a musician. But I don't want to get into too much conjecture.....

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.

But Stevie brought Sheryl Crow in and she was on more than one song. Maybe that was where Stevie started to dislike the project more - when her hopes of Sheryl replacing Christine didn't quite pan out as she hoped.

[Desiree]

Originally Posted by MikeInNV

For me it's a timing thing. Lindsey put up with all the craziness during the making of Tango. When he quit the band, just before they were ready to head out on tour, Stevie was in pretty good shape. I guess she was already on Klonopin, but at that point it was probably a reasonable dose. She looks and sounds great in all of the Tango promotion, videos, interviews, etc. I would think any fear he may have had would have subsided by that time.

Stevie was in pretty bad shape, really, until 1994 and then some. You don't leave rehab 'fixed', the REAL work begins after you leave. At the end of Tango and as Lindsey was leaving the band, Stevie had just gotten out of rehab for a long term cocaine, etc., etc. addiction and had gone straight onto Klonopin when she left (that's how they did it back then) so...she probably had very little truly clear time in between the coke and Klonopin. Plus, she was dealing with all of the fall out that comes with a completely wrecked life, a life that her family and friends, millions of fans, promoters, colleagues etc. have watched go to the very pinnacle and then fall to the very depths of hell, at her own hands, none the less! I'd say Stevie was probably extremely vulnerable and zoned out even as she came out of rehab and would only get worse for what would end up to be a very long time... I've always thought it was exactly as Lindsey said from the git go, a survival move, his leaving.

[SteveMacD]

I don't know if I agree that Lindsey feared for his personal safety. I don't think he really wanted to be in any band, but especially not one with two strung out drama queens and a recovering addict who's sobriety he doubted would last the tour (and I don't think it did).

[CADreaming]

I've always thought there was something else that broke the camels back. I'm sure his reason is true. But it seems like there's another part that we will probably never know. It doesn't add up to me that he suddenly had this epiphany of how crazy a tour would get. I mean, maybe he witnessed a break in the sobriety at rehearsal or a video shoot or maybe he even partook and then realized how hard it was going to be.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

It doesn't add up to me that he suddenly had this epiphany of how crazy a tour would get. I mean, maybe he witnessed a break in the sobriety at rehearsal or a video shoot or maybe he even partook and then realized how hard it was going to be.

My theory is that he just didn't want to be in any band anymore. What was different this time?

Well, per Mick and Billy, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour regardless because Lindsey wanted a second guitarist, and Billy was the obvious choice, considering his work with Mick, Christine, Stevie, and even Lindsey. Maybe Lindsey even figured that Billy could just take over altogether, which would free him up from being in the band.

[CADreaming]

Interesting. I wondered if he had any input in his replacement(s).

But, why didn't he consider not getting so involved in the band before he produced a new album, made videos, did press, and booked a tour?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Interesting. I wondered if he had any input in his replacement(s).

I doubt he had any input, but I'm sure he assumed Billy was their guy. I doubt he'd even heard of Rick Vito, who Mick had met and started to work with on a Rick Vito solo project through Billy.

But, why didn't he consider not getting so involved in the band before he produced a new album, made videos, did press, and booked a tour?

Per an interview I've heard from 1990, Mick got a lawyer to draft some document, and the band started working with a different producer, all of which Lindsey felt was unacceptable. IMO, they should've parted ways with Stevie and Lindsey after the "Tusk" tour, or even the "Mirage" tour and found another guitarist/vocalist (I'm thinking Richard Thompson) and forged forward. No offense to Stevie, but she she was dead weight from 1986 to 1997, and she's all but admitted that.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I doubt he had any input, but I'm sure he assumed Billy was their guy. I doubt he'd even heard of Rick Vito, who Mick had met and started to work with on a Rick Vito solo project through Billy.


Per an interview I've heard from 1990, Mick got a lawyer to draft some document, and the band started working with a different producer, all of which Lindsey felt was unacceptable. IMO, they should've parted ways with Stevie and Lindsey after the "Tusk" tour, or even the "Mirage" tour and found another guitarist/vocalist (I'm thinking Richard Thompson) and forged forward. No offense to Stevie, but she she was dead weight from 1986 to 1997, and she's all but admitted that.

perhaps, but the fact remains she was the biggest name in the band and they drew a lot of fans to concerts etc based on her name, so ditching her would have seriously reduced their ticket sales and their PR. In many ways Stevie should have left the band for her *own* sake -- a large part of her drug use came out of the grind of running two careers and being exhausted and using coke to keep going.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Well, per Mick and Billy, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour regardless because Lindsey wanted a second guitarist, and Billy was the obvious choice, considering his work with Mick, Christine, Stevie, and even Lindsey. Maybe Lindsey even figured that Billy could just take over altogether, which would free him up from being in the band.

No where have I ever read where Lindsey said he wanted a second guitarist. He always had Ray Lindsey playing for him right behind a big amp when he needed assistance.