What's so wrong with writing in the third person?

[Sugar]

Rhiannon
The Highwayman
When I See you Again (ironically enough)
Ghosts
Alice
Sweet Girl (parts of it anyway, "She said "What do you..")

That's all I can come up with quickly...

But really, is Stevie's writing in the third person more annoying than her VERY liberal use of the word "well", especially in concert?

Thrown Down in concert:

Well, she watched it all come into play
Well, maybe now he could prove to her



You know that's how she's gonna do it...

[Cristian]

Originally Posted By Carne Vaca
I would say that "maybe," "now" and "could" are superfluous words. Stevie should have pushed herself and come up with a more elegant way to convey the message

I don't agree with Carne's analysis of that first verse of "Thrown Down" which led him to think that the lyrics were not good, or were badly-edited. In poetry (or in songwriting, for that matter), there's always the recurse of using words that could reforce the meaning of what's one trying to say. And those words are helping to making that message strong... let's see:

"Thrown down, like a barricade
Maybe now he could prove to her
That he could be good for her
And that they should be together"

The narrator is seeing a relationship, like watching it on a TV, or from a different perspective. She is not living the situation, or dealing with her (that's when the use of the third person form becomes more relevant), she's only an observator. But she knows that the situation (that meeting of two old lovers) has no apparent meaning. At least it does not mean something that they could live in the future, something concrete. It is very vague. The future is dark with that person, as was the past. Again, it's not her the one who's living the experience , therefore the third person is an excellent resource. We know she is, but only because we know the story. A badly-informed listener would say that this is a nice story. And if he has good ears (or eyes to read the lyric booklet), he'd read that verse like this:

"Thrown down, like a barricade
Maybe now he could prove to her
That he could be good for her
And that they should be together"

because the intention is to leave one with the doubt. What's going to happen in the future? Who knows. Who cares even. The future is so dark that the words are stressing that point. And those become very important in that proces. By no means "superflous", in my humble opinion.

In the third person discussion, there is of course a thing about different songwriting styles, which, as Carne so elloquently put, is a matter where there's no "right" or "wrong". Let me put it this way. In their early years, The Beatles wrote songs "for their fans", as they expressed in their Anthology book... their songs were written in first person because they liked to put themselves in the ficticious stories that they told whilst doing the songwriting process. That, the youth and the first attempts on songwriting led to results such as:

Love, love me do
You know I love you

which of course made their point. They made an total change when (in their own words) realized that it was more "interesting" to say "she loves you" instead of "I love you", and they built a very sophisticated lyric (for the time, and for their ages) whilst writing a third-part story:

She says you hurt her so
She almost lost her mind
But now she says she knows
You're not the hurting kind
She says she loves you

This song would lose all the impact if written in first person ("I love you")... But that's a particular case. Paul McCartney in particular, stayed with this style of writing stories about other people ("Eleanor Rigby", "Rocky Raccoon", "Maxwell's Silver Hammer", "Another Day" are perfect examples)... John Lennon never liked the style, even though he used techniques of changing songwriting manners. For instance, he had, in the very confessional Plastic Ono Band album, a song called "I Found Out", about his own childhood traumas and stuff. He had this verse:

I heard something 'bout your ma and your pa
They didn't want you so they made me a star

but later on as it was going to become a "confessional" song, the change made it finally appear as:

I heard something 'bout my ma and my pa
They didn't want me so they made me a star

and it was more "impactant". Like that, in the first person.

So basically, it's everything about styles applied to certain songs. In the case of "Thrown Down", to me, it works. But yet Stevie can be very reiterative in the use of that way of writing, so I understand the fact that it can upset some people.

Interesting discussion.


Song of the moment - Jane

[Vianna]

Hawkeye...


Thrown Down is third person.

He fell for her again
She watched it happen

as opposed to

Every night you do not come
Your softness fades away

there she's talking to someone-2nd person

Later

But never have I been a blue calm sea
I've always been a storm

she's talking about herself-first person



=:-)

[CarneVaca]

Christian, you just made me realize for the first time that "She Loves You" was written in third person. How about that? I always considered it a second-person song, but upon closer inspection, I believe you are right, my friend.

Often, it just comes down to perspective. And, ultimately, it is perspective that matters most. For perspective becomes reality, doesn't it?

This is one of the most thoughtfull threads I've seen here. Let's have more of these.

[ricohv]

Thanks to The Ledge for these disections of the Mac/ Stevie's songs, etc. for now I know I am not alone in my "Mac nerdiness"!

The only thing I can think to add to this post:

For years people criticized Stevie for "fluff" songwriting and what seemed like narcissism. Now that her newer writing seems to be less mysterious and less"mystical", most of us die hards clammor for classic Stevie: witches, gold dust women and highwaymen! Her new songs are still catchy with some of her classic idiosyncracies , but personally I Miss You or That Made Me Stronger packed not half the punch of Candlebright or Sorcerer.

JMO: KEEP PULLING OUT THE OLDIES!!!
Ricoh

[Bella Figura]

talk about "macnerdiness", I'm in the movies over the weekend watching the previews and in my head pops, what if "Thrown Down" is really from a third party perspective??...Stevie could be observing and commenting on Christine and John's relationship during the Dance tour, after all from what I understand of their relationship breakup is that Christine left because of John's drinking and John was the one left behind, still in love. make John and Chris the characters in the song and Stevie the observer and the song still rings as true as if the narrative is about Stevie trying to "cover up" her relationship with Lindsey...

[Les]

Great thread!

Bella...about John and Chris, that's a very interesting possibility. It brings to mind a comment from Stevie in the 97 Rolling Stone article: "John drinks too much. And that's why Chris and John aren't together. Period." There was no lost love between them, but there was that "barricade."

[Sorcerer386]

Well Bella Figura, you beat me to it, lol. I was sitting in class today and I was thinking about Thrown Down, and I thought, you know, this song could actually have nothing to do with Stevie. It might not have anything to do with Fleetwood Mac. Stevie has said that she writes songs about OTHER people in her life and their relationships, and maybe this is one of them. I know I do that a lot...

Also, as I was writing down the lyrics to Thrown Down in my boring Recitation class, I realized how much I like the line "you can dedicate your pain to him..." Just a side note...time for more class.

[Johnny Stew]

With about four (give or take) multi-page threads focusing on "Thrown Down," I'm guessing the song isn't quite so uninteresting after all!



Johnny Stew

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I've always loved when she writes in 3rd person...because its like when she says "he fell for her again..." i get the feeling shes really reflecting there...because "her" is Stevie...and she kind of steps outside of herself and writes in 3rd person, which is great...i love when she refers to herself as "she"

[Sorcerer386]

I'm sure a lot of people by now have heard Christina Aguilera's song Beautiful by now, which I admit is a very good song and a VERY powerful video. However, the one thing that struck me about it when I was listening to it for the first time was the first chorus when she says:
" I am beautiful...words can't bring me down, I am beautiful in every single way..."
On first listen without hearing that the other two choruses swing out of first person, I was thinking, "Wow, she's really got that ego pumping doesn't she?" I was taken aback by the fact that she's calling herself beautiful...while it's nice she exudes confidence, it just sounds very egocentric (again, this shock was slighted after hearing the rest of the song).

There IS a point to this. It's an example of how writing in first person sometimes isn't the best thing. Stevie received guff for saying "I spoke to my famous friend last night," and I bet it would have been blunted if she'd said "She spoke..." or "You spoke..." Which, personally, something that I find myself doing a lot when I write is referring to myself in second person, which is really strange afterwards. For instance, one thing I wrote (not sure if I'd want to call it "Hourglass" or "Mad World") says:
"You say you know everything, you know it's very far from true"
And then I slip back into saying "I." I don't know if that shows a weakness to my writing or just an obscurity, but the point is sometimes it just sounds better to the WRITER to talk about it in a different sense.

[Steve]

With about four (give or take) multi-page threads focusing on "Thrown Down," I'm guessing the song isn't quite so uninteresting after all!

Of course it's interesting. It may be the first track from the new CD. That doesn't mean many of us don't have our obvious concerns.