New Deluxe Edition of Then Play On due on the 19th Aug 2013

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by slipkid

TPO was the Green era Rumours, Kiln House was two confused guitarists with no direction, yet great Kirwan songs.

Agreed that TPO is a masterpiece of great guitar rock and blues. But I would disagree with you that Kiln House lacks direction. While it may be true that Spencer and Kirwan were scare ****less and/or ambivalent about carrying on without Green, the album they made is pretty damn amazing and coherent. It reminds me of the Stone's Exile on Mainstreet, or more accurately what the Stones wanted Exile to be. Spencer's tunes are amazing send ups and homages of sun city sounds, and yes, Kirwan's songs are excellent rock tunes.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by LesPaul7

I never fully understood the album until I heard the UK release. Have you ever seen Green's original song line-up?

From Strange Brew:

side 1
Before the Beginning
Like Crying
Rattlesnake Shake
Although the Sun is Shining
Fighting for Madge
Without You
My Dream

side 2
Coming Your Way
Showbiz Blues
When You Say
Underway
One Sunny Day
Closing My Eyes
Searching for Madge

Interesting, most of the tracks remained paired together.

If you're not mocking in 1969, I can see that songlist work. If that was Peter Green's original intent, who stopped him? I can see that songlist work today. "Before the Beginning" was the jewel of the album. Peter Green saw the other side of the rock/blues concept, he broke the restictions. That's how he wrote "The Green Manalishi", which has launched a handful of great late 70's/early 80's British Heavy Metal bands. Ritchie Blackmore was doing the same with Deep Purple in 1969.


It's obvious FM had no influence vs. Warner Brothers. Green felt trapped and left.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

Agreed that TPO is a masterpiece of great guitar rock and blues. But I would disagree with you that Kiln House lacks direction. While it may be true that Spencer and Kirwan were scare ****less and/or ambivalent about carrying on without Green, the album they made is pretty damn amazing and coherent. It reminds me of the Stone's Exile on Mainstreet, or more accurately what the Stones wanted Exile to be. Spencer's tunes are amazing send ups and homages of sun city sounds, and yes, Kirwan's songs are excellent rock tunes.

Kiln House without Peter Green was forcing Jeremy Spencer to recreate songs from the 1950's. Spencer offers NOTHING original to Kiln House. Kirwan does offer original ideas, and they are great.

If Peter Green stayed with FM for say....ten more months post 5/1970, Fleetwood Mac would've been bigger than the Rumours band. If WB released the Boston Tea Party tapes as intended in late 1970, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Those Boston tapes would trump the Allmans in 1971.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

It's obvious FM had no influence vs. Warner Brothers. Green felt trapped and left.

Sorry, I don't buy that. If that was the reason why he left, he wouldn't have released "End of the Game" on Warner Bros. I just don't think he was thinking clearly, even back then. It's clear (at least to me) that there was something going on with his mental health by this point. Really, "Man of the World" is where I see things starting to slip for him. The lyrics on "Then Play On" only show it getting worse, with it reaching critical mass on "The Green Manalishi".

Here's my take: Schizophrenia's onset is typically between the ages of 16 and 25 in men. Peter Green was 24 when he left the band. He was a fragile personality, and the pressures of the industry, drugs, and identifying with the suffering, yet being frustrated that, in spite of his fame and fortune, not being able to make a difference all came together and ultimately lead to his mental breakdown. I think what happened in Germany was the straw that broke the camel's back, but clearly something DID happen. There were too many people who've corroborated the story who otherwise had nothing to do with each other.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

Kiln House without Peter Green was forcing Jeremy Spencer to recreate songs from the 1950's. Spencer offers NOTHING original to Kiln House. Kirwan does offer original ideas, and they are great.

Jeremy may not have offered original concepts, but he did write four songs and made contributions to "Station Man". And, from what I've heard, those '50s parodies were the most popular part of Fleetwood Mac's set.

[LesPaul7]

Originally Posted by slipkid

If you're not mocking in 1969, I can see that songlist work. If that was Peter Green's original intent, who stopped him? I can see that songlist work today. "Before the Beginning" was the jewel of the album. Peter Green saw the other side of the rock/blues concept, he broke the restictions. That's how he wrote "The Green Manalishi", which has launched a handful of great late 70's/early 80's British Heavy Metal bands. Ritchie Blackmore was doing the same with Deep Purple in 1969.


It's obvious FM had no influence vs. Warner Brothers. Green felt trapped and left.

It was just his original track list when he started mixing the album, he released it to John Mayall's fanzine.

[becca]

It may be the idea that Fleetwood Mac would be unstoppably huge if Peter had stayed that is mainly why he had to leave not wanting that sort of thing.

My impression of the Berlin thing is that he was enjoying himself and didn't want to leave, was enjoying the pure playing and expression among people who seemed to get it. If it was a bad drug experience shouldn't he have been collapsed and gibbering or panicky or some such? It makes a convenient scapegoat for some people and maybe the acid was 'bad' or different and nudged certain tendencies. I've had a couple 'bad' trips but which I value quiet a lot, I grew a lot from them, yet outwardly I am not as productive as an artist as I once was when I was driven and wanting to prove something. Then again, I am very sympathetic with Pete's thoughts then of giving it all away, owning nothing etc. as I had many thoughts along those lines myself at one time. The Green Manalishi to me anyway is a song about the insidious power of money, this monster we invented for ourselves which traps so many. It is tearing apart the world st6ill today in so many ways, but when it comes down to it is markings on flat two-dimension pieces of paper. It rules most people however! Jesus overturned the money lenders tables in the synagog, yet so many Christians are the 'buyers and sellers' like that pop song my Ocean back in the day (my parents' band used to perform that alongside things like Bad Moon Rising). John Lennon was struggling with many of these things around that time but somehow became a peace icon whereas old Pete is supposed to have become a sad deluded wreck?

[becca]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Jeremy may not have offered original concepts, but he did write four songs and made contributions to "Station Man". And, from what I've heard, those '50s parodies were the most popular part of Fleetwood Mac's set.

Together One is something that really grew on me over time, it's almost Bee Gees lyrics with a country-folk expression. As lovely as anything by Fairport or The Byrds.

Mostly all we have are accounts of Jeremy in lame suit with Cliff or Harold or whatever they called it in his pocket. A genuine show stopper in it's time. It wasn't until I heard Elvis on the Madison Blues set where I really started to 'get' that at this remove, and it was hysterical. I often wonder what Phil Ochs might have thought as he was grapsing for something along those lines perhaps too about then. A lot of people were feeling lost around 1970, and looking back in various ways.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Sorry, I don't buy that. If that was the reason why he left, he wouldn't have released "End of the Game" on Warner Bros. I just don't think he was thinking clearly, even back then. It's clear (at least to me) that there was something going on with his mental health by this point. Really, "Man of the World" is where I see things starting to slip for him. The lyrics on "Then Play On" only show it getting worse, with it reaching critical mass on "The Green Manalishi".

Here's my take: Schizophrenia's onset is typically between the ages of 16 and 25 in men. Peter Green was 24 when he left the band. He was a fragile personality, and the pressures of the industry, drugs, and identifying with the suffering, yet being frustrated that, in spite of his fame and fortune, not being able to make a difference all came together and ultimately lead to his mental breakdown. I think what happened in Germany was the straw that broke the camel's back, but clearly something DID happen. There were too many people who've corroborated the story who otherwise had nothing to do with each other.

I don't buy it for one reason; Why did Fleetwood Mac ask Peter Green back nine months later to replace Jeremy Spencer for a US tour 2/71? Pink Floyd wouldn't have asked Syd Barrett back to perform nine months later after he broke down from LSD.

I believe the rest of FM at the time were confused by "Munich". Peter Green was having fun playing "Krautrock" in the basement of a mansion in Munich. It was German progressive rock, much more avant-garde compared to the UK/US bands at the time. That's where "End of the Game" came from.

Peter Green was still willing to play as a guest as late as 11/70. He joined the Allman Brothers in New Orleans for a three hour version of "Mountain Jam" that began at midnight. By 3AM, the drummers gave up due to fatigue.

Even before Oswley Stanley, Peter Green always had FM do gigs for charity. By 1970, he was trying to convince the rest of the band to be more charitable events, and donate money. Mick Fleetwood had tasted fame since he was married to George Harrison's sister-in-law.

Peter Green wasn't a typical acid casualty. I believe his love for mescaline, and Acid triggered a dormant gene. Yet it wasn't in full blown schizophrenia until 1973.

[becca]

I've read about Syd getting burned out from playing the same songs too many times under pressure to make it sound the same each time, and also burned by audiences who only wanted to hear some hit singles and nothing more, particularly outside of London. The Madcap Laughs is a great album although it took him awhile and a lot of help to get it together. Like Peter I think he was just artistic rather than doing a job and increasingly allergic to the 'industry', and who is to say they aren't right when you look at what happened to The Iveys/Badfinger? Nico too sabotaged her appearance after being one of the top lookers earlier; the worst thing you can do is to be less marketable or commercial right?.

I sometimes wonder with Syd, Brain Wilson and guys like them if they weren't highly functioning autistics, as in Asberger's Syndrome. Diagnosis in the '60s and '70s was pretty iffy. Multiple personalities is such a rare thing yet was over-diagnosed following some movies and publicity.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by becca

I've read about Syd getting burned out from playing the same songs too many times under pressure to make it sound the same each time, and also burned by audiences who only wanted to hear some hit singles and nothing more, particularly outside of London. The Madcap Laughs is a great album although it took him awhile and a lot of help to get it together. Like Peter I think he was just artistic rather than doing a job and increasingly allergic to the 'industry', and who is to say they aren't right when you look at what happened to The Iveys/Badfinger? Nico too sabotaged her appearance after being one of the top lookers earlier; the worst thing you can do is to be less marketable or commercial right?.

I sometimes wonder with Syd, Brain Wilson and guys like them if they weren't highly functioning autistics, as in Asberger's Syndrome. Diagnosis in the '60s and '70s was pretty iffy. Multiple personalities is such a rare thing yet was over-diagnosed following some movies and publicity.

Great points, becca! However, there are three musicians who suffered the same fate within a matter of months. 1) Roky Erickson from the 13th Floor Elevators...2) Skip Spence from Moby Grape, and 3) Syd Barrett.

Peter Green did not suffer the above, it was a much slower process. Peter Green was acting normal the day he left FM 5/70. In fact I think PG just wanted to leave FM as early as 1969. Mick Fleetwood uses "Munich" as a myth. Peter Green wanted out six months prior. Yet PG did suffer from mental illness only after he did the FM winter/spring US tour 1971. Logic says you don't ask Syd Barrett back for a US tour if he's already changed by drugs.


I can't say that Brian Wilson has Asbergers. I know that according to Brian Wilson his first LSD experience was writing "California Girls". Brian Wilson suffered from child abuse, not mental illness, until drugs came along. Murray Wilson was the Beach Boys version of Joe Jackson, if not worse.

[SpyNote]

Warner Music Japan is reissuing Then Play On, Kiln House, Future Games, Bare Trees, Penguin, Mystery to Me, and Heroes Are Hard to Find on "high-fidelity SHM-CD format (compatible with standard CD player)" in cardboard album sleeves on September 4. There isn't a lot of information about this format, but some Led Zeppelin fans who have bought SHM-CDs rave about them on Amazon, arguing that they are not another gimmick. Does anyone know how they sound? I'd imagine anything would be better than the murky quality of the existing Fleetwood Mac CDs. You can order the SHM-CDs from CD Japan.

Also, The Second Disc did a nice writeup on the vinyl reissues to be released on August 20.