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  #16  
Old 04-30-2016, 05:53 AM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott View Post
Lazypoker's point about Questions doesn't really arise as Mannfred Mann would have just been using the melody and as Schubert dies in 1828, copyright issues wouldn't have arisen. I would have hoped that he would have acknowledged its use out of politeness, though.
i stand corrected concerning this point, mr scarrott.
but in general (not only on the classical music front) it can be said that the danger of being sued hasn't prevented quite a lot of folks to use other peoples' work without credit (and the record companies didn't mind, either) - especially in the bluesrock field: led zep with "whole lotta love" or "bring it on home", for example, or canned heat ("bullfrog blues"), but even the beatles were sued by chuck berry for a few words in "come together", george harrison with "my sweet lord" . . . it goes on and on and on.
some may have gotten away with it, others haven't - so, with that in mind it still leaves some possibilities open . . .
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  #17  
Old 04-30-2016, 10:00 AM
Dr.Brown Dr.Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott View Post
Lazypoker's point about Questions doesn't really arise as Mannfred Mann would have just been using the melody and as Schubert died in 1828, copyright issues wouldn't have arisen. I would have hoped that he would have acknowledged its use out of politeness, though.

I'm amused at the thought of composers turning in their graves infuriated at the thought of missing out on royalties. Think Beethoven over the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, or Saint Saëns over the desecration of his Organ Symphony (one of my faves) by If I had words (which is not)
Agreed. As another example, think of Lindsey' s use of Pachelbel's Canon in D Major for Eyes of the World on the Mirage album.

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FYI: The Rumours lineup = Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Lindsey Buckingham & Stevie Nicks.

The lineup featuring Mike Campbell & Neil Finn is a Post-Rumours lineup of the band.


After 14 yrs visiting a site I once enjoyed which covered a band I once loved following, I now ‘Say Goodbye’ to both
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2016, 01:41 PM
Mr Scarrott Mr Scarrott is offline
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Default Ralph Vaughan Williams Society

I've had a couple of friendly and very kind replies from the Ralph Vaughan Williams Society. Sadly, there's no killer identification made, but the Chairman of the Society, who told me he is a fan of Then Play On thinks the excerpt identifies the Fifth Symphony as an influence or feeling for the extract. I'm listening to it now.

Do you know, I think actually played the 'cello in a university orchestra performance of a movement or two of this 30 years ago... that rolling theme from the first movement is coming back to me.

Another member contacted me, sharing memories of going to Mac gigs many times in the Sixties, standing ten feet away from the band as Peter introduced Danny Kirwan as their new guitarist. Interestingly, he advised me that Rikky Rooksby author of the Complete Guide to the Music of Fleetwood Mac is also a member of the RVW society. I don't own the book, but I remember leafing through it in the bookstore. If memory serves, he's a fair and objective reviewer, and it was pretty well written as well. I seem to recall he wrote something along the lines that much fun must have been had during the recording of the Madge tracks.

I've just noticed another poster on the Talk Classical forum has suggested:

Sounds like Vaughan Williams fifth symphony, final movement as it gently fades away

http://www.talkclassical.com/43446-c...fleetwood.html

I must get back onto that site to thank Becca and Metarie Road. Many thanks to the RVW members! We have more in common than we dared imagine.

EDIT:

I guess the fact that Ricky Rooksby is a fan of RVW means that it's less likely that the excerpt was by him. He would have mentioned it in his track-by-track analysis in his book, I would have thought.

I couldn't hear it in the ending of the 5th symphony, btw.

Last edited by Mr Scarrott; 05-02-2016 at 04:18 PM..
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  #19  
Old 05-02-2016, 04:26 PM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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I couldn't hear it in the ending of the 5th symphony, btw.
agreed! a very sweet ending as this is - and some similarity can't be denied - but it ain't it. the mystery goes on . . . but thanks so much for all your efforts so far, mr scarrott!
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  #20  
Old 05-05-2016, 12:21 PM
THD THD is offline
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Originally Posted by lazy poker View Post
but even the beatles were sued by chuck berry for a few words in "come together",
.
Do you happen to know which words were the problem lazy poker ?(or can I just call you lazy ?)
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  #21  
Old 05-05-2016, 03:23 PM
ash1 ash1 is offline
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Here come a flat top he come, movin up with me
from You Can't Catch Me
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  #22  
Old 05-06-2016, 05:33 AM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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Originally Posted by THD View Post
Do you happen to know which words were the problem lazy poker ?(or can I just call you lazy ?)
the original lyric line from chuck berry's "you can't catch me" read:
"here come ol' flat-top, he was movin' up with me"
john lennon used this line in "come together":
"here come ol' flattop, he come grooving up slowly"
and because of these few words berry (who to this day NEVER misses even the slightest chance to make a little more dough) sued the beatles . . . can you believe that?!

p.s. call me what you will . . . but don't call me lazy!

Last edited by lazy poker; 05-06-2016 at 05:35 AM.. Reason: addition
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  #23  
Old 05-06-2016, 06:30 AM
ash1 ash1 is offline
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Originally Posted by lazy poker View Post
the original lyric line from chuck berry's "you can't catch me" read:
"here come ol' flat-top, he was movin' up with me"
john lennon used this line in "come together":
"here come ol' flattop, he come grooving up slowly"
and because of these few words berry (who to this day NEVER misses even the slightest chance to make a little more dough) sued the beatles . . . can you believe that?!

p.s. call me what you will . . . but don't call me lazy!
In fairness I think (?) it was Morris Levy who sued John over that ...think he owned the publishing. Regardless of the right and wrong, Levy was apparently a gangster and a particularly unsavoury character.
Check this intro out for another bit of classic borrowing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dfh9QIjR3Q
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  #24  
Old 05-06-2016, 12:19 PM
lazy poker lazy poker is offline
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Originally Posted by ash1 View Post
In fairness I think (?) it was Morris Levy who sued John over that ...think he owned the publishing. Regardless of the right and wrong, Levy was apparently a gangster and a particularly unsavoury character.
Check this intro out for another bit of classic borrowing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dfh9QIjR3Q
. . . so we did it again - drifted out of topic a wee bit
anyway - for those interested in the full plot, check out this:
http://www.thebeatlesrarity.com/2015...come-together/
and thanxalot, ash, for pointing out the origin of the "revolution" intro! now that's a cute one i didn't know!
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2016, 07:44 AM
Mr Scarrott Mr Scarrott is offline
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Default Jeremy doesn't know...

I overcame my initial reluctance and emailed Jeremy Spencer regarding this, just on the off-chance that he might remember something. I had a lovely reply from him, but sadly he can't help us on this one. As his only involvement with TPO was that haunting bit of piano on Oh Well Part 2 , I didn't honestly expect him to know anything about it.

My thanks to Jeremy for his time and reply, though.

So I don't know where to go from here. I noticed that Martin Celmins, who wrote Peter Green's biography is on linkedin and there's the Peter Green and Friends facebook page.

Maybe one day one of us will be listening randomly to Radio 3 or Classic FM and we'll hear the passage identified in all its glory..
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  #26  
Old 06-02-2016, 08:35 AM
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sharksfan2000 sharksfan2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott View Post
I overcame my initial reluctance and emailed Jeremy Spencer regarding this, just on the off-chance that he might remember something. I had a lovely reply from him, but sadly he can't help us on this one. As his only involvement with TPO was that haunting bit of piano on Oh Well Part 2 , I didn't honestly expect him to know anything about it.

My thanks to Jeremy for his time and reply, though.

So I don't know where to go from here. I noticed that Martin Celmins, who wrote Peter Green's biography is on linkedin and there's the Peter Green and Friends facebook page.

Maybe one day one of us will be listening randomly to Radio 3 or Classic FM and we'll hear the passage identified in all its glory..
Thanks for giving this a try, Mr Scarrott! I did pose the question on the "Then Play On ... Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac" Facebook page shortly after it came up here, but no one is any closer to an answer there.

By the way, Mike Vernon is a member of that Facebook group and was one of many who replied to my question there. In response to another comment, I'd already mentioned that Mike Vernon was no longer producing the band at that time and that engineer Martin Birch might have the best recollection, and Mike Vernon agreed with that. But no one seemed to know how to get in touch with Martin Birch, so no luck proceeding in that direction.

I think until anyone can show otherwise, my best guess is that that portion of "Madge" was an original piece.
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