Fourth Fritz Clip! Reconsider from 1967....

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

If the music was posted here for pure enjoyment there would be no discussion. Since it appears this is more of a trial balloon on realeasing the rest of what Javier has, why not be honest about our opinions? Again, I'm not trying to ruin anything for anyone. I'm stating an opinion about the way the whole thing is being funneled through this board.

You make some valid points. This whole enterprise has always struck me as a way to stick your toe in the water without committing.

If Javier is interested in releasing the music for the solely sake fo folks enjoying, I agree that he should share the full songs. If he wants to make money from it, which I completely understand, he should do so as well. But the latter does not void the former. I think he could share the full songs and sell them later. But that's an argument I've already made.

[amber]

Originally Posted by golden braid

Well, I love hearing the songs even if it's only part of them. So thank you so much and keep up the good work!

Way to go, G en B, I agree. Ungrateful brats! Just kidding...
AMber

[ThinLine]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Did you ever download the Gift of Screws files? Did you buy "Say You Will?"

I know of bands that make individual songs available for free in their sites before even releasing albums. And then the fans who download the songs go buy the albums.

Are you speaking for yourself?

Yes I downloaded GOS and yes I bought SYW. This is not what I was talking about.

Of course I'm speaking for myself.

I also saw a FM fan site post the bonus tracks to the Tusk and Rumours reissues for downloading. I see fans complaining about not getting extras from the band and when they give us something a fan site posts the tracks so people don't have to buy it.

Yes, there are a core group of fans who are going to buy the commercial releases of everything FM and it's members put out. IMO, I think there are many of those same fans who would not pay to buy Fritz recordings and wouldn't care if they received them by sharing files. I don't think you can compare the release of Lindsey's GOS tracks on SYW to Fritz recordings. While many of the core fans bought the reissues as soon as they came out, many did not buy them and once they had the bonus tracks from the fan site who chose to post them, I would bet many will never buy it. Perhaps those same fans would have downloaded them off of one of the major file sharing sites anyway. I'm only trying to make the comparison that for some fans those types of tracks are not in a class with new released songs from FM or one of its members.

[ThinLine]

glitter,

I obviously misunderstood your post

Originally Posted by glitterfades

I'm not speaking for everyone, but to some people the snippets are more of an insult than a treat.

I wasn't quite sure if you felt that way or you were expressing a general feeling you were getting from other fans.

As for taking sides, when I read your post (added to some of the comments that have been posted here already) I was responding to the feeling that fans were insulted to only be receiving clips.

[David]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

As for taking sides, when I read your post (added to some of the comments that have been posted here already) I was responding to the feeling that fans were insulted to only be receiving clips.

As far as I'm concerned, clips are fine -- or no clips at all, or whole songs, or even pretty pictures of people's houses with the juniper tree in the front yard.

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it. That's actually a better description of carrot-dangling. (In fact, some of us have an even more colorful term to describe that, but using it would be to flout the FAQ.) If you have something you know the rest of the fans would love to have but you have no intention of disseminating it, announcing it is bragging about it. Our parents & teachers were supposed to have taught us at very young ages that bragging is not nice. I remember a nice young lady a couple of years ago got involved in some sort of silliness over an unreleased Lindsey Buckingham song that was up for bid on eBay -- for whatever reason, the announcement was made here on this forum that the song would not be shared, which, as anyone would guess, resulted in a lot of resentment & flaming. People justifiably felt at the time, why was the announcement made? What good did it serve? The answer was obvious: it feels great to the person bragging. But it's not nice. It's rude. Things like this used to happen on Usenet, too. Fans had this or that & didn't want to or were bound not to share the stuff, but went ahead & chatted merrily about it anyway in a public forum ... to the extreme & justifiable annoyance of others.

It's something to think about. I sometimes catch myself bragging about something, & think, "David, you're being an ass. Cut it out." The compulsion to brag is extremely powerful, but it can be fought.

[ThinLine]

Originally Posted by David

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it.

It's something to think about. I sometimes catch myself bragging about something, & think, "David, you're being an ass. Cut it out." The compulsion to brag is extremely powerful, but it can be fought.

Sometimes there are good reasons why people can't or won't share things, even if the people who want it may not want to understand, or aren't privy to all of the reasons why something can't be shared. Sometimes fans just assume they know all of the reasons, when in fact they don't.

By the same token there are a lot of FM fans who have a boatload of private material and don't want it shared with all fans and get mad at those who do choose to share it. Because of the ease and low cost of file sharing on fan sites, many new fans are able to build a collection so that they can one day trade. There are very few sites who will trade for blanks and many fans don't have anything a more experienced fan will want.

I suppose there are all kinds of reasons why fans share or don't share, or only share with their closest friends or groups. I guess its wrong to assume we know why someone does or does not do something if we don't know all the facts behind their decision.

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

glitter,

I obviously misunderstood your post

I wasn't quite sure if you felt that way or you were expressing a general feeling you were getting from other fans.

As for taking sides, when I read your post (added to some of the comments that have been posted here already) I was responding to the feeling that fans were insulted to only be receiving clips.

I see what you're saying. I didn't mean posting the clips is an insult compared to entire songs. My reading of certain posts is that some fans are feeling used in the process. Dangling the clips to see if everyone will go crazy about entire songs might seem less than noble to some. Are the clips out there for enjoyment only or are they intended to get fans to beg for more? I might be wrong, but I thought those type of posts were expressing ire at the process not the clips themselves.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by David

As far as I'm concerned, clips are fine -- or no clips at all, or whole songs, or even pretty pictures of people's houses with the juniper tree in the front yard.

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it. That's actually a better description of carrot-dangling. (In fact, some of us have an even more colorful term to describe that, but using it would be to flout the FAQ.) If you have something you know the rest of the fans would love to have but you have no intention of disseminating it, announcing it is bragging about it. Our parents & teachers were supposed to have taught us at very young ages that bragging is not nice. I remember a nice young lady a couple of years ago got involved in some sort of silliness over an unreleased Lindsey Buckingham song that was up for bid on eBay -- for whatever reason, the announcement was made here on this forum that the song would not be shared, which, as anyone would guess, resulted in a lot of resentment & flaming. People justifiably felt at the time, why was the announcement made? What good did it serve? The answer was obvious: it feels great to the person bragging. But it's not nice. It's rude. Things like this used to happen on Usenet, too. Fans had this or that & didn't want to or were bound not to share the stuff, but went ahead & chatted merrily about it anyway in a public forum ... to the extreme & justifiable annoyance of others.

It's something to think about. I sometimes catch myself bragging about something, & think, "David, you're being an ass. Cut it out." The compulsion to brag is extremely powerful, but it can be fought.

That was Peacekeeper from the ACLU sampler.

And the sma ething happens with Lindsey's version of Bill Yellow Taxi every once in awhile and the person bragging about it tells a tale about not being able to circulate it or else someone in the record biz will lose their job.

[NoThatFunny]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

Sometimes there are good reasons why people can't or won't share things, even if the people who want it may not want to understand, or aren't privy to all of the reasons why something can't be shared. Sometimes fans just assume they know all of the reasons, when in fact they don't.

This is an interesting discussion. But if may bold enough to interpret what David was saying, he is making the very reasonable argument that if you have something you don't want to share, it makes no sense to talk about it, or brag about it, with other fans who will naturally also want to get their hands on it. I think his point is a good one.

[ThinLine]

Originally Posted by NoThatFunny

This is an interesting discussion. But if may bold enough to interpret what David was saying, he is making the very reasonable argument that if you have something you don't want to share, it makes no sense to talk about it, or brag about it, with other fans who will naturally also want to get their hands on it. I think his point is a good one.

I agree with people who brag about it. But not every case is the same and just because fans find out one person has something, that doesn't mean the person who has is now obligated to share it. Sometimes not everything about a situation is known and people just assume things they really shouldn't.

[bjk3047]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

I agree with people who brag about it. But not every case is the same and just because fans find out one person has something, that doesn't mean the person who has is now obligated to share it. Sometimes not everything about a situation is known and people just assume things they really shouldn't.

I'm sorry, but all you're doing is making completely nonspecific comments. If indeed Javier has 'unknown' elements to his 'situation', he's got a forum to voice it. We're forming quite reasonable and structured arguments. You're just saying 'Well, you could be wrong. I know nothing about anything, but you could be wrong.'
It's a bit unnerving.

[ThinLine]

Originally Posted by bjk3047

I'm sorry, but all you're doing is making completely nonspecific comments. If indeed Javier has 'unknown' elements to his 'situation', he's got a forum to voice it. We're forming quite reasonable and structured arguments. You're just saying 'Well, you could be wrong. I know nothing about anything, but you could be wrong.'
It's a bit unnerving.

Umm, I think you need to back up in the thread. My comments were made in reference to David's comments about fans withholding music from other fans. I was not and have not been talking about Javier and the tracks he is now posting on the Penguin.

By the same token and since you brought it up, I don't know anything about Javier's situation and yes, for all any of us know he might have reasons why he is doing things the way he is, or this is simply his choice to handle it the way he has been. I don't feel Javier has to voice anything in this forum or any other. He owns the tracks and the songs and they're his to do with as he likes.

[David]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

My comments were made in reference to David's comments about fans withholding music from other fans.

But I made no such comment qua comment. Instead, I commented about bragging: publicly announcing that you have no intention of sharing what you have. It's an entirely different issue from someone who merely decides he won't or can't share. I have no problem with the latter; what a person does with his stuff is none of my business.

If I had something I wasn't going to -- or couldn't -- share, other fans would never know. (At least, I'd like to think so.) But if I went around to all the message boards & newsgroups just to chirp, "This never-released Stevie Nicks album is amazing, but you'll never hear it," other fans would be fully justified in thinking me a horse's ass.

Is this distinction between stances clear? I hope so this time, because my comments are so invariably misunderstood, & I'm certain the problem isn't my verbal skills.

Incidentally, I think Javier should tell the record companies to take a hike, & release his Fritz music (I hope he has some concerts, too!) online. The esteemed Rickie Lee Jones has a great system going for her fans: a large selection of new & previously unreleased music, in CD & MP3 format, on a pay-per-download system. Her CDs are found at: http://snipurl.com/8nh1. The MP3s themselves are at: http://snipurl.com/8nhb.

[ThinLine]

Originally Posted by David

But I made no such comment qua comment. Instead, I commented about bragging: publicly announcing that you have no intention of sharing what you have. It's an entirely different issue from someone who merely decides he won't or can't share. I have no problem with the latter; what a person does with his stuff is none of my business.

If I had something I wasn't going to -- or couldn't -- share, other fans would never know. (At least, I'd like to think so.) But if I went around to all the message boards & newsgroups just to chirp, "This never-released Stevie Nicks album is amazing, but you'll never hear it," other fans would be fully justified in thinking me a horse's ass.

Is this distinction between stances clear? I hope so this time, because my comments are so invariably misunderstood, & I'm certain the problem isn't my verbal skills.

It seems there are a lot of misunderstandings in this thread.

First of all, I don't know about any members related to this band who have publicly stated that they have no intention of sharing what they have

The incidents I thought you were refering to were the ones that dissention commented on in their post, the Peacekeeper sampler and the Big Yellow Taxi cover. If you were talking about Javier in your original post I would have no way of knowing that because as far as I could tell, Javier is interested in getting this music out there at some point. I also see a big difference between a fan stating "I have something and I'm not sharing it" and the situation with Javier. That's my opinion.

You also stated in your original post

Originally Posted by David

As far as I'm concerned, clips are fine -- or no clips at all, or whole songs, or even pretty pictures of people's houses with the juniper tree in the front yard.

Have there been other members of FM or artists associated with this band who have publicly stated they have something everyone wants but don't want to share it? If there are I'm not familar with it and I didn't think that's what you were talking about in your original post that I responded to.

Originally Posted by David

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it. That's actually a better description of carrot-dangling. (In fact, some of us have an even more colorful term to describe that, but using it would be to flout the FAQ.) If you have something you know the rest of the fans would love to have but you have no intention of disseminating it, announcing it is bragging about it. Our parents & teachers were supposed to have taught us at very young ages that bragging is not nice. I remember a nice young lady a couple of years ago got involved in some sort of silliness over an unreleased Lindsey Buckingham song that was up for bid on eBay -- for whatever reason, the announcement was made here on this forum that the song would not be shared, which, as anyone would guess, resulted in a lot of resentment & flaming. People justifiably felt at the time, why was the announcement made? What good did it serve? The answer was obvious: it feels great to the person bragging. But it's not nice. It's rude. Things like this used to happen on Usenet, too. Fans had this or that & didn't want to or were bound not to share the stuff, but went ahead & chatted merrily about it anyway in a public forum ... to the extreme & justifiable annoyance of others.

I thought there was one issue of Javier's songs and how or when or if he would be able to release them, and fans who brag about having things that other fans want but they're not sharing it.

I also agree that fans bragging about having things they're not willing to share is wrong.

[javier]

Perhaps he would like to share full songs if we ask nicely? [/QUOTE]

Asking nicely never hurt Marty--he can tell you about that. I would have loved to share all the Fritz music with you since I first discovered The Penguin in 1999. And yes, it would be nice to earn some money for it, there is value there. But even though I own the studio and live recordings I still need to get permission from my colleagues to commercially release this. I intend to go that route. IT will take a little time because S&L are very busy people. However, that's the road I must take. I am a principled person. Numerous times I have expressed my gratitude to Stevie and Lindsey for their great success which has made interest in this music even possible. In the meantime, I meant to share some of it with y'all, but I can't give it all up in one stroke. Should I just give it all away? Well, I can at least give away some of it, but not all.

There are two songs written by Stevie and two by Brian. They are part of the live set material and I would hate to not include them in a collection. I believe fans should hear the whole sets, all the songs in their original order. IT would be great if I could enlist S&L's company (Warner Bros) to distribute the CDs. THis material should have the best opportunity to reach the widest audience. The suggestion posted about selling downloads is a good one. I would consider it if there were no recourse through S&L, however, I am patient, and my inclination is to first see what can be done with their help. We had a short meeting in June, but it was a sincere coming together. I know we will meet again and have a serious talk about what to do about all this. I am very optimistic about the future. I believe there is global appeal and of course, I think the quality is there, even on cuts where the vocals are hard to hear. Its rock history, folks. You all will get to hear an entire piece. I will send Marty a complete song in the coming weeks. And SodaScouts will soon be posting some meaty Fritz too. Both the message of the songs and the music are still timely in 2004, thanks to the general de-evolution of the recording industry over the last 20 or so years.
IF you understand digital technology at all you know I could not just post all the complete songs because that would make it too easy for bootleggers or unethical people trying to make a quick buck, such as we've seen lately at Ebay. To characterize what I have done as "dangling a carrot" is disingenuous and wrong. I never intended to leave the fans "dangling," or to tease people. This was done simply to gauge interest. But I understand there are some folk who would just question anything coming from me. That's o.k., there's always gonna be someone out there who doesn't like brocoli. I'm more concerned with reaching those more receptive souls who haven't made up their minds so quickly.
You will soon be treated to some long Fritz cuts. That should spur plenty of spirited discussion about S&L's early music experiences. I appreciate your comments.