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  #46  
Old 06-19-2002, 07:23 PM
madformac madformac is offline
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Thumbs up off we go again!

My phone line went dead first time around so here we are again!

This debate is back on by agreement so let's get in the ring!

Firstly, Seteca makes some valid points.

Lindsey does repeat and recycle his work but so do many many other artists, especially guitarists.
If I listen to 3 seconds of a solo I can usually tell who the guitarist is from both the tone and the choice of notes he plays. Call it a signature if you like. This is true of Clapton, Hendrix, Slash, Lindsey and Knopfler.
I love most of Lindsey's work and as a record buyer it's great. As a guitarist and musician of sorts sometimes I wonder where he is going, musically.
If you are a musician and you create a piece of work, the public will vote with their money. If they love it it will make you rich and sucessful. When you come to a follow up, what do you do? Take the original work, add in a few new chords, new lyrics, change the basic notes of the solos around a bit and there you have it. Hit record number 2.

And what if you don't?

Unfortunately, Lindsey decided his fate when Tusk was released. A truly great record but one the record buying public was not prepared for. The fickle record buying masses decided against it and Lindsey has paid for this ever since.
Lindsey loves to state he wasn't going to run the formula into the ground and release a Rumours 2.
Why then now do a lot of his pieces sound so similar? Did he or somebody else change his mind after Tusk? Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind! Ha!

Nice to hear Wondergirl9847 say Lindsey inspired her to pick up a guitar. I'm sure this would please him as much as adulation for his music would.
Sometimes I feel like playing after watching him too, as I do with others as well.

His ability as a guitarist is not under question, his musical soundness of mind maybe is, then again this may trigger something unexpected in his upcoming work. Time will tell.....

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  #47  
Old 06-19-2002, 07:40 PM
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Heart That indefinable something

As a mere mortal non-musician Lindsey Buckingham fan, I have little to add to this analytical discussion of Lindsey's competence and merits as a musician/guitarist/songwriter/producer/human being, etc.

For me, Sodascouts said it best:

It's so much easier to analyze whether somebody can pick faster or cleaner or whatever than the much more subjective "special something" that takes technical skill to the next level. I believe Lindsey has that "special something." It's like faith, you can't touch it or explain it but you know it's there and you know it's real. :-)

And, in the course of the conversation about Lindsey's departure from the band in '87, I was reminded of this excerpt from Singers and Songwriters:

So he eventually left Fleetwood Mac altogether, and they replaced him with two singer-guitarists. It was an attempt doomed to failure; you can’t take the heart out of a band and replace it with mere musicians.

Of course, that's just one writer's opinion.

Barbara
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  #48  
Old 06-19-2002, 08:00 PM
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Ahhhh...another participant! YAY!!!

As I've mentioned to a few folks off board, what I LIKE about Lindsey and what he does that inspires me, in turn, also pisses me off about him. My whole view in this thread is from the "he's pissin' me off" side...I'm mad that we're stuck without any new material from him...sure, the GoS stuff is great & all, but those tunes are tainted due to them not really being finished or given the Buckingham stamp of approval for public consumption. How would those same tunes sound if he DID finish them and release them? Maybe not that different, maybe COMPLETELY different...but how are we going to know if it never gets done.

That repetetive thing...JEEZ, if I could come up with a great lyrical solo like the one he used on "Frozen Love", "I'm So Afraid", et al, I'd hammer it home again & again, too. But, at the same time, it's the "that's great, Lindsey, really is, but what else you got? I've heard that before."

That being said, and my previous comments on the "Twist Of Fate"/"Second Hand News" similarities..."Twist Of Fate" is one of my faves from the GOS sessions. (along with "Murrow", too.)...but again, I LIKE that sound, but that ground has been covered.


Quote:
Not to say that one shouldn't be true to himself. Of course Lindsey shouldn't produce crap just to appeal to the masses. Indeed, I do believe that "Out of the Cradle" (my fave LB album) was dead-on in that he resisted that compulsion to discard anything that sounded mainstream.....but I think years in the studio alone might make that compulsion creep up on him once again.
That's the thing...to my ears, "Out Of The Cradle" was Lindsey's solo equivalent (production-wise, commercial sounding-wise; but obviously not financially) of "Rumours"; and from hearing where he was going with "Gift Of Screws" was again, that "anti-OotC/anti-Rumours" thing...the more "Tusk-like" direction. I think that's what may have gotten him into hot water with the record company, that same "Tusk" vs "Rumours" attitude...record companies aren't that dumb...they wanted a "hit" from him...if "Out Of The Cradle" couldn't get the commercial success it deserved, how's another "push the envelope" album like "Gift Of Screws" going to sell tons (which is what the record company wants/needs from Lindsey)?? I mean, if we can't even drum up 10,000 signatures to get some unreleased Mac stuff out...who's going to buy an experimental Lindsey Buckingham solo album? I doubt that all 1000+ Ledgies would buy it...add in the number of folks who frequent other Mac related sites...MAYBE he'd sell 5-6,000 copies just to us die-hards...he had a major PR campaign with OotC and it basically bombed. The state of the record industry is even bleaker than back in 1992...so I doubt he'd drum up that many more folks with an album that isn't as commercially appealing as "OotC".


Another comparison:

Brian Wilson/Beach Boys:
Released "Pet Sounds"...commercially tanked (in the US...the UK ate it up!), but is considered one of the all-time greatest albums ever. The follow-up, "Smile" never got released (officially, there are tons of bootlegs of the sessions floating around).

Lindsey Buckingham:
Released "Out Of The Cradle"...commercially tanked...only time will tell how it'll be received 36 years after it's release. The follow-up, "Gift Of Screws" to date goes unreleased officially...we all have "not exactly legal" copies, right?


Oh, wondergirl and your "variations of chocolate" idea:
Not exactly what I was thinking, but I THINK I can tell where you were going with that. I was more thinking that Lindsey started out making chocolate ice cream with only cream, eggs, cocoa beans and whatever basic, natural ingredients it takes to make real natural ice cream, back when he was 17...then he decreases the natural ingredients slowly over time to now he's giving us the same chocolate ice cream, only made with "imitation chocolate flavoring", monoglycerides & preservatives...a lot of artificial stuff and ever decreasing natural stuff...unless the two (the natural and artificial) are eaten side by side, the imitation flavoring still would satisfy the craving for chocolate, but in a less nutritious or healthy form. Same with theatre popcorn...back when, they gave us REAL butter topping...now it's some butter flavored grease that still satisfies our tastebuds, but isn't FULLY as satisfying as the "REAL THING"...nor as healthy.

Now saying that, I'm sure we're not all going to fall over dead from hardening of the arteries if Lindsey releases yet another song or songs that have the "I'm So Afraid" type solo in it, but I think you get my drift.
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  #49  
Old 06-19-2002, 08:23 PM
madformac madformac is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chiliD

Oh, wondergirl and your "variations of chocolate" idea:
Not exactly what I was thinking, but I THINK I can tell where you were going with that. I was more thinking that Lindsey started out making chocolate ice cream with only cream, eggs, cocoa beans and whatever basic, natural ingredients it takes to make real natural ice cream, back when he was 17...then he decreases the natural ingredients slowly over time to now he's giving us the same chocolate ice cream, only made with "imitation chocolate flavoring", monoglycerides & preservatives...a lot of artificial stuff and ever decreasing natural stuff...unless the two (the natural and artificial) are eaten side by side, the imitation flavoring still would satisfy the craving for chocolate, but in a less nutritious or healthy form. Same with theatre popcorn...back when, they gave us REAL butter topping...now it's some butter flavored grease that still satisfies our tastebuds, but isn't FULLY as satisfying as the "REAL THING"...nor as healthy.

That's the best thing I've read on this thread so far!

All things in moderation. Too much ice cream will make you sick...

But at a later stage you will go back and eat it again won't you.

If you analyse the taste long enough you will be able to recreate it using modern chemicals and equipment and take it to a point where none of the original ingredients remain. The question then at that stage would be, can you remember how to make it with the original recipe or not? Or would you prefer to sell an artificial product that may contain carcinogenic chemicals?
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  #50  
Old 06-19-2002, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
... you can’t take the heart out of a band and replace it with mere musicians.

Some COULD apply that quote in reference to Peter Green's departure from Fleetwood Mac, 17 years earlier, as well.

Last edited by chiliD; 06-19-2002 at 08:32 PM..
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  #51  
Old 06-19-2002, 08:33 PM
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wondergirl9847 wondergirl9847 is offline
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Wink Well...

I'm no expert on analyzation but basically, my point was, on Monday, I want Big Love (chocolate), Tuesday, I want ISA (mint chocolate chip), Wednesday, I want Doing What I Can (chocolate almond), etc...they are all a variation of "chocolate ice cream", but are basically the same thing, I love them all, even tho they are all just tweaked chocolate ice cream. The MAIN POINT was that I love them all EVEN THO they are basically, the SAME THING! HEE HEE I am really enjoying reading all your opinions and stuff, this is a GREAT thread!!
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  #52  
Old 06-19-2002, 08:50 PM
madformac madformac is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chiliD



Some COULD apply that quote in reference to Peter Green's departure from Fleetwood Mac, 17 years earlier, as well.
Interesting, whilst we are using other examples to get our points across.

Let's look at race car drivers.

A driver may be a champion, the best in the field, some who watched him race may say the best ever. One day he may get bored with the challenge, switch teams or retire. He may even lose his life.
His team will replace him.
The replacement driver may win three world titles for that team. Is he a better driver? Maybe, maybe not because the car and the opposition will have changed in that different era. You can only compare the driver to the opposition at the time he raced. His car may also be better prepared than the previous drivers car for the circuits of the time. Impossible to judge, opinions differ..

Anyway, that's my attempt at interpreting Peter's departure!

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  #53  
Old 06-19-2002, 09:26 PM
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OK, let's take ANOTHER similar thing...

The Dolphins are championship contenders with Bob Griese at quarterback...Griese gets old & retires, along comes Dan Marino. Dan takes the Dolphins to the Super Bowl, but just can't get 'em over that hump to win the Super Bowl...Marino sets all new team quarterbacking records in the meantime, though. Who's the better QB??





Right........John Elway.


Thank you and good night!
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  #54  
Old 06-20-2002, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by chiliD


Some COULD apply that quote in reference to Peter Green's departure from Fleetwood Mac, 17 years earlier, as well.
At least let the man keep his kudos - he earned them.

Barbara
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"I wish I could make records quicker, and maybe some day I'll learn to do that, although I guess I'd better hurry up."
Lindsey Buckingham, Behind The Music, 2001
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  #55  
Old 06-20-2002, 07:04 PM
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Sodascouts:
"This is about what I think is genius and I'm the only one I have to please and everybody else can just go to hell!" It's so weird, though, because even as he did this he seemed to really want everybody to eat it up regardless, and seemed so crushed that his fans weren't "ready" for his genius. (By the way, comments like that have always made me feel like a loser, as I thought Rumours was better than Tusk). Ah, Lindsey, so fiercely defiant and so desperately needy at the same time!

I'm under the impression from the things he's said that it wasn't even so much the fan reaction to Tusk that upset him. Yes, I think it disappointed him and maybe hurt his feelings in some way, but I think he also expected some harsh reactions from a fanbase used to hearing something different. What I've always thought "crushed" him was actually his bandmates' relative rejection of the album after the fact. I suppose he felt like they had either lied to him during the making of it and really hadn't liked anything he did but wouldn't say so during the making, or he felt like they were distancing themselves from the album only because it didn't sell so well. Whether either one of those things is totally or partially true only they know. But that seemed to be something that colored everything from that point forward.

From then on, it seemed to leave him somewhat confounded. He could be alternately defiant about his ideas (because what can one cling to if not one's own instincts?) and confused about how to present his ideas to the band he didn't quite trust anymore.

I was just thinking that for all the times that "genius" is applied to him and for all the pomposity attributed to him for that tag, Lindsey's never referred to himself in those terms. In some ways, I think some motivations are attributed to him that he's never voiced himself.

Last edited by Les; 06-20-2002 at 07:17 PM..
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  #56  
Old 06-21-2002, 10:53 AM
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Heart Genius

Quote:
Originally posted by Les
I was just thinking that for all the times that "genius" is applied to him and for all the pomposity attributed to him for that tag, Lindsey's never referred to himself in those terms. In some ways, I think some motivations are attributed to him that he's never voiced himself.
I agree with you. To me, Lindsey's always seemed extremely self-effacing (offstage) and has commented several times in the press about not being in the same league as other musicians, etc. I think the perception that he's stuck-up comes from his being shy. There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!"

Barbara
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Lindsey Buckingham, Behind The Music, 2001
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  #57  
Old 06-21-2002, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: Genius

Quote:
Originally posted by Barbara
There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!"

Barbara

LOL! Well, that's irrefutable proof. A man with a self-depracating sense of humor is a man whose britches fit him just fine, if not a little loosely. :-)
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  #58  
Old 06-21-2002, 05:39 PM
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Default Perfect!

Quote:
Originally posted by sodascouts
I think there's an underlying depth to a lot of his work that I find emotionally compelling, and this comes through in his playing as well. I believe Lindsey has that "special something." It's like faith, you can't touch it or explain it but you know it's there and you know it's real. :-)
Perfectly said.....IMO. You summed up in two lines what I was trying to get across in everything I wrote!

Quote:
Originally posted by Barbara
There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!"
LOL.... ...good one Lindsey!.....but....I think he should be less modest......

Dictionary definition of the word:

genius :

Extraordinary intellectual or creative power.

Enough said!

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  #59  
Old 06-21-2002, 07:58 PM
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Thumbs up LINDSEY'S Genius

Quote:
Originally posted by Barbara


I agree with you. To me, Lindsey's always seemed extremely self-effacing (offstage) and has commented several times in the press about not being in the same league as other musicians, etc. I think the perception that he's stuck-up comes from his being shy. There's a story that Lindsey had a sign on his studio door "Keep Out. Genius at Work" under which he wrote in black marker, "I'm just here till he gets back!!"

Barbara
I gotta get me one of those signs! LMAO!

WAY TO GO LINDSEY, women love a man with a sense of humor.
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  #60  
Old 06-22-2002, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Les
I'm under the impression from the things he's said that it wasn't even so much the fan reaction to Tusk that upset him. Yes, I think it disappointed him and maybe hurt his feelings in some way, but I think he also expected some harsh reactions from a fanbase used to hearing something different. What I've always thought "crushed" him was actually his bandmates' relative rejection of the album after the fact. I suppose he felt like they had either lied to him during the making of it and really hadn't liked anything he did but wouldn't say so during the making, or he felt like they were distancing themselves from the album only because it didn't sell so well. Whether either one of those things is totally or partially true only they know. But that seemed to be something that colored everything from that point forward.
Judging from their playfulness & exuberance onstage during that tour, I'd say that the other Fleetwood Mackies initially enjoyed the "Tusk" left turn, but didn't understand -- or "get" -- some of it. Then, when it fizzled out halfway up the matchstick, they probably said some harsh things to Lindsey about whose fault that was & what the direction of the band *should* be & all that.

But I think it took the other members some time before they really began to enjoy the sound & vibe of the album the way that some of the fans already enjoyed it in 1979. Stevie, for example, says that she took several years to warm up to it, that she didn't get it at first. She talked to Molly Meldrum about "Tusk" in 1986 & about how she loved it at that point, but about how it took her several years to hear the fun & the energy in it. Of course, by that time, she didn't talk to Lindsey much -- otherwise, she might have told him then how amazing she thought "Tusk" was. Imagine if she had been able (or courageous enough) to tell him that in 1986. Maybe those "Tango" sessions might have had an entirely different context. And maybe his decision not to tour might have taken a radically different path the next year (if the others had all told him how much they had come to love "Tusk" musically).

As for Lindsey's estimation of his talents & importance, he has shown perspicacity. He said his main contribution to the band has always been as an arranger & producer rather than as a singer or songwriter or even guitarist. He's always admitted that he has "the chops" as a guitarist, but that it's more important to him how he thinks about the guitar instead of how he plays it. As a songwriter & guitarist, he is fringe & minimalist & exuberant. As an arranger, he is practically peerless in his field.

Repeating ideas & motifs is practically commonplace in all the arts. Beethoven built entire symphonies painstakingly & deliberately on the repetition of themes & ideas: that was the mark of a great composer in his day. That was what you were supposed to do. I like to think of Lindsey as an auteurist in the film study sense: this entire way of looking at movies originated as a French theory of film directing. Sometimes these repeated motifs succeed artistically & sometimes they don't, but they're there in so many works. In "High Sierra," a Raoul Walsh movie with Bogart & Lupino, Walsh uses a dull & obvious device that he had used earlier in a dumber movie ("High Sierra" is not itself a great movie). In that earlier movie, the hero thrashes around in his sleep & mumbles dream-talk incoherently. Then the girl he loves comes into the bedroom & listens to him, her eyes welling with sympatico tears. The same scene occurs in "High Sierra." When you see Hitchcock's "Saboteur," you can see some of the same devices & techniques & even themes that you saw in earlier Hitch movies like "The 39 Steps" & even "The Lady Vanishes."

This kind of thing happens all the time in all the arts; it's not by any means a Lindsey Buckingham "problem." The question is, Is it done well or poorly? Does it have a point (& that point could be thematic or semantic or structural or even kinetic)? And most important, does the self-borrowing (in Lindsey's case) strike you imaginatively or as just a ripoff of an earlier success? Think of your best friend, who (I hope) has a personality. Sometimes, displays of that personality charm you & other times irk you. There are times when Lindsey's self-referencing charms me, as in the "Bleed to Love Her" stanza that is lifted from "You Do or You Don't." The lifted verse in "Bleed" nestles beautifully into the song's bridge at that point. I also appreciate the repeated stanza in "I Know I'm Not Wrong" & "Not That Funny" because the sarcasm of the joke build & builds & is completed -- "don't blame me" that there's "somebody outside the door."
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