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  #91  
Old 03-19-2013, 07:44 PM
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elle elle is offline
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Her life is often more representative of equality than her words are. Michele
yes, after reading various responses i realized what i initially disregarded is that by being a successful woman in men-dominated profession a woman is automatically a trailblazer.

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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post
^in the comments I quoted Stevie was not only sharing her own philosophy but saying that other women should do that too. She may have evolved since then, but in the past she has often expressed antiquated notions of womanhood. It doesn't make her bad. It makes her a product of her generation.
"I said to Chris, we can never be treated like second-class citizens," she explained. "When we walk into a room we have to float in like goddesses, because that's how we wanted to be treated. "

Lipstick feminism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_feminism - Lipstick feminism is a variety of Third-wave feminism that sought to embrace traditional concepts of femininity, including the sexual power of women, alongside feminist ideas.

re a product of her generation - wasn't that really a tail end of a hippy generation? can she be more of a product of the upbringing in her family? i don't know much about SN's family, but if you come from a family with several generations of women working in non-traditionally-female fields, maybe philosophy to be-quiet-and-look-pretty-in-the-presence-of-men wouldn't readily occur to you?
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  #92  
Old 03-19-2013, 09:47 PM
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yes, after reading various responses i realized what i initially disregarded is that by being a successful woman in men-dominated profession a woman is automatically a trailblazer.
Yes, it's true and I say it about Chris too, because there have been a couple of articles in the past, making the argument that her songs are weak, always mooning over a lost man who doesn't return her love and I can't deny that, but so what if her lyrics are weak? If you are a female musician looking for a role model, look at Christine's professional life.



Michele
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  #93  
Old 03-23-2013, 02:07 AM
blemelin blemelin is offline
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Default Stevie's feminism and a great essay in response

I'm just going to leave the link after I say this: Stevie's few remarks in Austin re: feminism sparked some issues here. I read the arguments, thought about responding, thought better of it and walked away. Then I found this. I probably should have left this in the existing thread, but I couldn't find it again. AND I WANTED TO START FRESH WITH THIS and get past the existing falderal. (Sorry for the flame.) I don't think Stevie was only referencing the music business with her comments. Anyway, this sums it all up much better than I ever could.

http://oneweekoneband.tumblr.com/pos...dragon-shes-in
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  #94  
Old 03-23-2013, 02:19 AM
blemelin blemelin is offline
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Default The entire Ann Powers interview

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2...ike-goddessses

This covers a lot of the omissions left out in the initial blog that caused all the falderal. Read it for comprehension before you go off. All the comments here make a lot more sense in the context of the entire interview, including the "float like a goddess" comment, which seemed to offend a number of people.

I know Stevie is erratic and narcissistic and flaky and flawed (aren't we all?), but this goes a long way to settling at least one or two of the eccentricities of the edited comments.

Peace out.
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  #95  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by blemelin View Post
I'm just going to leave the link after I say this: Stevie's few remarks in Austin re: feminism sparked some issues here. I read the arguments, thought about responding, thought better of it and walked away. Then I found this. I probably should have left this in the existing thread, but I couldn't find it again. AND I WANTED TO START FRESH WITH THIS and get past the existing falderal. (Sorry for the flame.) I don't think Stevie was only referencing the music business with her comments. Anyway, this sums it all up much better than I ever could.

http://oneweekoneband.tumblr.com/pos...dragon-shes-in
Someone posted that awhile back on another thread (not the same topic) and I loved it. It sums a lot up.

And as far as Stevie's "we have to float in like Goddesses" comment goes, I took it to mean the equivelant of when men use the phrase, "walk in like a God" which is used when dealing with potential competition or just when extra confidence is needed.
I don't know Stevie personally, but I really think that's more along the lines of what she meant. Don't be a wallflower. Be strong, but in a feminine way. That's all.

Personally, I could actually use some of that advice myself, as when I need to be strong I tend to be too masculine, which people sometimes perceive as gruff.

~ Jamie
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  #96  
Old 03-23-2013, 04:22 PM
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Someone posted that awhile back on another thread (not the same topic) and I loved it. It sums a lot up.

And as far as Stevie's "we have to float in like Goddesses" comment goes, I took it to mean the equivelant of when men use the phrase, "walk in like a God" which is used when dealing with potential competition or just when extra confidence is needed.
I don't know Stevie personally, but I really think that's more along the lines of what she meant. Don't be a wallflower. Be strong, but in a feminine way. That's all.

Personally, I could actually use some of that advice myself, as when I need to be strong I tend to be too masculine, which people sometimes perceive as gruff.

~ Jamie
Exactly. The point being that masculinity should not necessarily be an indicator for strength, or vice versa. You should be able to be perceived as BOTH feminine and strong. One doesn't negate the other.
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  #97  
Old 03-23-2013, 04:40 PM
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If Stevie recommends playing along with the patriarchy to some extent in order to get along, I would not consider that feminist, but I would also not consider it condescending of women who don't play along. The sad fact is you can't always say no to the patriarchy because sometimes what's at stake is just too great, the cards are stacked against you and you can't win if you don't play along. Fortunately things are not so bad that you can't pick some battles.

I would not tell a woman to listen to the kind of advice Stevie gives that encourages playing along with the patriarchy, that would be her choice to navigate the patriarchy the way she sees fit. But neither would I conclude that Stevie is anti-woman or condescending of other women because of this, because the truth is sometimes women can recommend not rebelling because they do care about you, it happens a lot with mother-daughter or other intergenerational relationships with women.

I also would really warn against the idea that many women in life are perfect feminists. Even Gloria Steinem has made mistakes and said some things that don't hold up to scrutiny. The way I see it, feminism is not yet another yardstick to use to beat down women for not being perfect enough, feminism is not yet another competition for us to earn approval, and by making mistakes we do not let feminism or womankind down, because we're human beings before we're representatives (and humanity is the whole point of feminism IMO). Stevie is very probably not a perfect feminist, but few women anywhere are, and that doesn't mean she hasn't contributed significantly.

And the huge thing is that she is willing to talk about it, and once you are willing then high profile discussions can be had, the public is thinking about it once again instead of living in some kind of post-feminist delusion. And Stevie herself can learn, and she can teach, and everyone (theoretically) wins. If Stevie says something sketchy she should be called out on it. But I can think of few women, even feminists, who can't stand to learn something and amend their past words.

As an example, Christine's a great and admirable woman but the way she implicitly agrees with the idea that women are Yoko Onos of rock'n'roll never sat well with me. Doesn't mean I disregard all the great things she's said as well as accomplished.

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised that Stevie has said less evolved things in the past, after all most people evolve as they age. I just don't think that her comments in this particular interview suggest anything off, including the word "goddess" (unless you insist on being stubborn about what she probably means). That's the only reason I said anything in this thread. In the past, sure she probably was less evolved. The past is the past, though, and what she's saying now doesn't really bum me out (yet).

ETA2: IMO some feminine women regard their femininity imperiously because they feel it is attacked and trivialized by society at large, so they're reacting against having their back against the wall by coming out fists first, so to speak. I don't know every single thing she's ever said so I'm not going to presume that it's all defensible (but I was only trying to defend this particular interview in the first place), but there's another side to it. Not that it should excuse not growing up and learning though.

Last edited by redbird; 03-23-2013 at 05:01 PM..
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  #98  
Old 03-23-2013, 05:26 PM
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I think Stevie has had a tendency to judge other women. Not in this article. I think her words in this article are empowering, more than anything else, but in the past she seems to have had an old-fashioned view that I do find sexist but I attribute it to her being in her sixties, more than anything else.

For instance, when she blasted Madonna for kissing Christina and Britney, I don't think she would have publicly criticized an older man kissing two young women like that. I should say, I don't think she said it from a homophobic perspective either. If Madonna had kissed two young men, I don't think Stevie would have liked that either. I think she just didn't think a "lady" should behave in that fashion.

Michele
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  #99  
Old 03-23-2013, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by blemelin View Post
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2...ike-goddessses

This covers a lot of the omissions left out in the initial blog that caused all the falderal.
At the bottom of this article it still says it's the condensed version.
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  #100  
Old 03-23-2013, 09:45 PM
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That's why I didn't say it was the whole interview. I merely pointed out that it was more complete than the post that started this thread.
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  #101  
Old 03-23-2013, 10:21 PM
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Stevie does have a prudishness that keeps her from being really in touch with sex positivity, I would agree with that. However to be honest I can understand some feminists' criticism of female sexual exhibitionism (especially girl-on-girl action that happens to be situated as to be able to appeal to straight guys -- and that can't apply to men kissing women since there isn't an equal and opposite history in modern western culture of men performing strictly to appeal to women's turn-ons), even though I also understand counter-criticisms. It's one of those things that a lot of feminists disagree on, in my experience.

That said the way Stevie words things is not careful or thoughtful. She has this "beauty fades" idea which is true enough and also this "I say this because I care" attitude which may be sincere, but her efforts would be more effective and fair if they focused on the patriarchic structures that commodify female sexuality in the first place. I don't think she has that awareness.

I think Stevie has things to learn about feminism. I also think she's something of a trailblazer in rock'n'roll for women though, a lot of female pioneers don't technically qualify as feminists themselves, but feminism is still appreciative of them.

(Hell, Margaret Sanger, early champion of legal birth control, was a white supremacist. Try telling a black woman that she should be her female role model But, uncomfortably, we're stuck with a white supremacist who did a lot for women's right to contraception.)
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  #102  
Old 03-23-2013, 10:32 PM
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Old Today, 03:19 AM
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Default The entire Ann Powers interview
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2...ike-goddessses
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  #103  
Old 03-24-2013, 04:13 AM
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For instance, when she blasted Madonna for kissing Christina and Britney, I don't think she would have publicly criticized an older man kissing two young women like that. I should say, I don't think she said it from a homophobic perspective either.
And even if she did say it from a homophobic perspective, so what! We shouldn't hold that against her. Stevie is who she is, and that's that!
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  #104  
Old 03-24-2013, 04:50 AM
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And even if she did say it from a homophobic perspective, so what! We shouldn't hold that against her. Stevie is who she is, and that's that!
Well, that's not that for me. Everyone is who they are, but that's no reason not to hold them accountable, if appropriate. There was one band that told a tale of meeting Christine and she walked up to them and said they looked gay (or some kind of british equivalent, like ponces, or something) and I thought that was awful. They said they were crushed by her comment. They were strangers to her, not one of her buddies who would have thought it a joke. I mean, I don't know why you would walk up to someone you don't know and say something hurtful to them. I admire Christine as much as I always did, but I found fault with that.

Ted Kennedy: couldn't love him more than I do, but I don't sit there thinking I should just accept the fact that he was making phone calls to keep himself out of trouble when a girl was DYING. I do hold that against him.

Michele
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  #105  
Old 03-24-2013, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post
Well, that's not that for me. Everyone is who they are, but that's no reason not to hold them accountable, if appropriate. There was one band that told a tale of meeting Christine and she walked up to them and said they looked gay (or some kind of british equivalent, like ponces, or something) and I thought that was awful. They said they were crushed by her comment. They were strangers to her, not one of her buddies who would have thought it a joke. I mean, I don't know why you would walk up to someone you don't know and say something hurtful to them. I admire Christine as much as I always did, but I found fault with that.

Ted Kennedy: couldn't love him more than I do, but I don't sit there thinking I should just accept the fact that he was making phone calls to keep himself out of trouble when a girl was DYING. I do hold that against him.

Michele
Great post. I wonder why Christine would say that. I guess she's not as liberal as I thought she was.
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