Do we really want a new Fleetwood Mac album?

[RockawayBlind]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm only asking because I honestly don't remember her citing 'TISL' as an example in that reasoning.

I'm not really sure that matters. The salient point seems to be that Stevie is hung up on selling records. It was clear with her SYW contributions that foremost on her mind was making commercial music that would sell. When that becomes your goal, it is highly unlikely you are going to create your best music, unless it just kind of happens.

The obsession with selling is wrong on several levels. Artistically, as I mentioned, it is going to affect quality and creativity. Commercially, well, it's pretty much moot at this point, since bands make most of their money from touring. Knowing this, she should just forget about trying to be commercial with her songs and, instead, contribute the best songs she can muster -- assuming she can.

[David]

Originally Posted by michelej1

She didn't disown TISL, but she expressed a bitterness about the lack of sales that reinforced my belief that she will dislike any FM album that doesn't sell.

Don't you think that if Stevie starts to piss about it down the line, it will be owing to an unhappy experience recording it or touring behind it?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't think she ever said, "People stole TISL," but when asked why she didn't make another solo album after TISL -- she cited theft. Those interview comments came after she did Caesar's and were usually not related to why she wasn't making another FM album. They were about her solo work.

I remember that -- but I never connected those statements with anything having to do with 'Shangri-La's' sales. In fact, I'd be surprised if she weren't pleased with how well it did. Industry insiders, per the trade magazines, sure seemed to be impressed with its sales figures. It may not have sold a million, but surely someone had to have pointed out to Stevie that she had sold better than many of her contemporaries.

No, I think Stevie allowed herself to believe all the doom & gloom about the state of the recording industry in 2005, and let it cloud her judgment.

Originally Posted by michelej1

At any rate, they didn't make me think she wasn't bitter about low sales and looking to blame someone for them.

Again, even if she were bitter about 'TISL's' sales, the argument was that she doesn't like something only once it doesn't live up to sales expectations. I don't believe that to be true. But I do believe that she views low sales as a validation of her opinion when she already wasn't pleased with an album.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

Don't you think that if Stevie starts to piss about it down the line, it will be owing to an unhappy experience recording it or touring behind it?

I think that with FM, Stevie usually has an unhappy production or touring experience. Well, I think this Live 2013 tour was happy, but time will tell.

Before that though, before 2013, I think recording and touring with FM and fighting with Lindsey was always a very trying experience for her. BUT when the album has some success, it helps to mitigate the strife they went through to get it. It seems worth it. When the album has flagging sales, though, then everything bad about recording and touring on it seems to dampen her feelings about the album itself.

Michele

[Jondalar]

God, I hope Stevie can come up with some songs. I know Lindsey and Christine will knock it out of the park.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Again, even if she were bitter about 'TISL's' sales, the argument was that she doesn't like something only once it doesn't live up to sales expectations. I don't believe that to be true. But I do believe that she views low sales as a validation of her opinion when she already wasn't pleased with an album.

No, that wasn't my argument. I never said she didn't like TISL. I said that she gets bitter and resentful when an album doesn't sell and that trigger response of hers about fans stealing her music reinforced my belief that she accuses when sales are low. You were saying we don't have enough instances of her condemning low selling records, but I think we do and I think her general attitude, the one that allows low sales to depress her, makes her want to lash out and blame someone or something for it.

As for her not having been pleased with the album already, I think that if the exact same album had great sales, then she would not dislike it, not publicly.

People think her tunes on Tango were very weak. We learned that she complained about not being on the album (from Mick) and she talked about the recording experience being a bad one once she showed up at the trailer. I can't imagine she liked TITN when it was made, but it's not an album on her hate list. I think she would hate that album if it hadn't sold. But it sold well and she doesn't complain about it. Other than its sales, I would think Tango has very little to recommend itself to Stevie. Gold records help ease disappointment.

Michele

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by michelej1

No, that wasn't my argument. I never said she didn't like TISL. I said that she gets bitter and resentful when an album doesn't sell and that trigger response of hers about fans stealing her music reinforced my belief that she accuses when sales are low. You were saying we don't have enough instances of her condemning low selling records, but I think we do and I think her general attitude, the one that allows low sales to depress her, makes her want to lash out and blame someone or something for it.

As for her not having been pleased with the album already, I think that if the exact same album had great sales, then she would not dislike it, not publicly.

People think her tunes on Tango were very weak. We learned that she complained about not being on the album (from Mick) and she talked about the recording experience being a bad one once she showed up at the trailer. I can't imagine she liked TITN when it was made, but it's not an album on her hate list. I think she would hate that album if it hadn't sold. But it sold well and she doesn't complain about it. Other than its sales, I would think Tango has very little to recommend itself to Stevie. Gold records help ease disappointment.

Michele

Sometimes we like to believe our rock stars are deeper than what they are. When it comes to album sales, Stevie is about as deep as a raindrop. But reality has to already set in. She's not going to sale that many albums anymore.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Sometimes we like to believe our rock stars are deeper than what they are. When it comes to album sales, Stevie is about as deep as a raindrop. But reality has to already set in. She's not going to sale that many albums anymore.

Yes, I think she may know that now, in her solo career. I think she may be sad but sanguine regarding IYD's performance, but I think they may all have higher expectations for the next FM album than reality should dictate.

Michele

[MikeInNV]

Originally Posted by michelej1

People think her tunes on Tango were very weak. We learned that she complained about not being on the album (from Mick) and she talked about the recording experience being a bad one once she showed up at the trailer. I can't imagine she liked TITN when it was made, but it's not an album on her hate list. I think she would hate that album if it hadn't sold. But it sold well and she doesn't complain about it. Other than its sales, I would think Tango has very little to recommend itself to Stevie. Gold records help ease disappointment.

I've heard her say so little about Tango that I can't presume to know if it's on her hate list or not. However, perhaps she is careful not to criticize that one because, given her minimal involvement, someone might turn it back on her that she should have worked harder on it. Also, it might come off as too derogatory toward LB and CN if she criticizes a work that is essentially just theirs and not so much hers.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

No, that wasn't my argument. I never said she didn't like TISL. I said that she gets bitter and resentful when an album doesn't sell and that trigger response of hers about fans stealing her music reinforced my belief that she accuses when sales are low.

I didn't say that you said she doesn't like 'TISL' (yikes, that sentence made my head hurt). Your argument, as I understood it, was that she only dislikes an album if it doesn't sell well. I cited 'TISL' as an example to the contrary -- an album that didn't sell well, yet she still loves and is proud of.

Perhaps, though, I misunderstood what exactly it was that you were saying. You're not arguing that she only dislikes an album if it doesn't sell -- you're saying she's inclined to dislike certain albums from the very start, and only bites her tongue if they become a hit. Am I understanding that correctly?

If that is the case, then it seems like quite an assumption to me. However, I'm certainly making assumptions of my own here as well. We're both looking at the same examples, we're just forming two very different opinions.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by MikeInNV

I've heard her say so little about Tango that I can't presume to know if it's on her hate list or not.

If it hadn't sold, I don't think you'd have to presume. I think she'd be pretty open about the criticism.

Aside from that, I've heard her say quite a bit about the album. There's not a dearth of comments. She usually talks about not being there and not thinking it fair that she had 2 songs, Chris 4 and Lindsey 6, but she doesn't talk about not liking the songs on the album.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Perhaps, though, I misunderstood what exactly it was that you were saying.

What I'm saying is that she criticizes albums that don't sell. The fact that they don't sell prompts her to criticize them. Whether she likes them or not or liked recording them or not, it's the sales that makes her openly lambast them. I think there have been plenty examples of this in the past to support my conclusion. You disagree and I don't agree with your disagreement.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

What I'm saying is that she criticizes albums that don't sell. The fact that they don't sell prompts her to criticize them. Whether she likes them or not or liked recording them or not, it's the sales that makes her openly lambast them. I think there have been plenty examples of this in the past to support my conclusion. You disagree and I don't agree with your disagreement.

I still don't see how two examples of her lambasting low-selling albums constitutes "plenty," but so be it.

[MikeInNV]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I still don't see how two examples of her lambasting low-selling albums constitutes "plenty," but so be it.

And she's not criticizing IYD yet, so that's good.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by MikeInNV

And she's not criticizing IYD yet, so that's good.

She is still promoting. It garnered her the best critical response of her solo career. She is not going to criticize it.