Peter Green's royalties

[slipkid]

I've read from those who live in UK that Peter Green's music has turned up on a couple of TV commercials in the past few years. For instance Albatross was used for a grocery store chain, and Man of the World was used for a soda commercial from Ireland. Does Green still control his music, or did he sell the publishing rights years ago? What about Santana's BMW? I'm sure that has provided a steady income over the years. If this has been posted about before, I'm sorry but it was a question that crossed my mind.

[Street_Dreamer]

I'm not sure how the royalties work out, but I think that Clifford Davis has control over all the Green-era material. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Matt

[snoot]

There's a lot of confusion in that arena, but I believe his brother largely controls his finances at present, and has for quite a few years now. Not sure exactly where Mich Reynolds, his band manager, fits in to the financial picture though.

Street Dreamer: I'm not sure how the royalties work out, but I think that Clifford Davis has control over all the Green-era material. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

But more confusion for sure. Davis co-wrote (or at least received "co-authorship" credit on) some material with Green from the PGFM days. There are shared royalties there for obvious reasons. There is also the famed incident where Peter allegedly drew a gun on Davis when he did try to pay him some of his dues belatedly [see two takes below *]. Clifford also managed the band's finances for years after Green left the band and scene, and Bob Welch has stated before that the group was not receiving all that they should have been from various royalties, for which Davis as manager was responsible.

To what extent Davis still has his paws in the kitty at this late point is anyone's guess. There is also Mich Reynolds factor (see below).

From Penguin Q&A Sessions
Peter Green, August 19 - September 1, 1999

Hello Peter, first let me say thank you for a lifetime of great music and inspirational guitar playing. I was wondering if with the current rash of original (and best) Fleetwood Mac releases by the various labels, do all members receive royalties. Being a Danny Kirwan fan, I was wondering if he would be receiving a source of income through these new releases of his old material. Would you ever consider recording a tune of his in the future to generate royalties for him. A delta style Station Man would be interesting. Thanks for your time and please return and play in the US soon. (Terry, Avon, Colorado, USA)

Peter Green:
Yes, all the musicians do get their share of royalties. We have had difficulty over the years in collecting from some record companies but my manager Mich is slowly tracking them down and getting them all in for me. Danny Kirwan is still receiving his and is doing O.K.

[Snoot note: Mich is Mich Reynolds, the former wife of Clifford Davis who has helped look after him for years. She has become one of his closest friends and a protector of sorts.]

----------------

* Version 1 [excerpt]

Rolling Stone
March 24, 1977
Issue 235
by Cameron Crowe

THE TRUE LIFE CONFESSIONS OF FLEETWOOD MAC:
The Long Hard Drive from British Blues to California Gold

F*ck it...

Peter Green didn't want his 30,000 [pounds] a year. The money was royalties from his work with his old blues band, Fleetwood Mac. He'd quit the band in 1970, saying he wanted to live a Christian life. He gave his money away and eventually took various menial jobs, including one as a gravedigger.

But now, as more and more people acquaint themselves with Fleetwood Mac and dig back to old reissues, this money keeps arriving. He tries to get rid of it, but it's all just a bother. "I want to lead a new life," he would say. "I don't want to be followed around by the past".

When Green could tolerate it no longer, he paid his accountant a visit, brandishing a pump-action 22 shotgun. He wanted the money stopped. Soon Green was standing in Marlebone Court in London, listening calmly as the judge read this verdict. Peter Green, blues-guitar-star-turned-ascetic, was ordered committed to a mental institution.

----------------

* Version 2 [excerpt]

The Green God (by Bernie Watts)

In late 1976, Green and Clifford Davis, still his manager, had a fight on the telephone in which Green "threatened to shoot him." Davis took it seriously, and when the police came to check that situation, Green admitted to owning a gun ("I couldn't lie. I had used it once for hunting."). The police took him to prison for some six weeks, where he underwent psychiatric testing while waiting to go to court. Typically, Green now describes prison as "a great life-plain, ordinary food and ordinary people. I'll tell you, being in there with rogues and drunks and thieves was a great experience for an old blueser like me."

In 1977, reports were that he had improved, and in December of that year he came to Los Angeles, where Fleetwood Mac had its offices. Mick spoke of relief about Greens' easy going, no pressure nature, mentioning that "Peter can even laugh about the jails, the hospitals and the rest of it." Green concurs: "I used to be a very active, very intense guy. Now I'm more into a relaxing trip."

Mick negotiated a lucrative record deal for the Green god, who refused to sign the contract at the last minute, when his old demons returned to haunt him.

----------------

That's a few things anyway (fwiw).

[Norton]

Clifford Davis was married to Mich Reynolds. Mich Reynolds is Nigel Watson's sister.

Seems to me that which ever way you look at it, these three made a great deal of money from their association with FM and PG. Also Mich used to manage the Fleetwood Mac mobile recording studio, at least until the late 90ties... Is it still going?

[Ms Moose]

Yes, snoot - there certainly is a lot of confusion regarding both the question of royalties and of the "Peter Green brandishing a gun"-incident. The latter having taken on almost myth-like dimensions in the media-history of our guitar-anti-hero.

According to Martin Celmins biography about Green - which is probably the most truthful source - all the gunslinging that took place was verbal and happened during a phone conversation between Green and Clifford Davis. Green had just returned from a holiday in Canada, was broke and called Davis. Davis said that he had no money for him, but that the accountant David Simmons had it. Green explains in the book that somehow he said: "I'll shoot you," and when Clifford explained that Simmons had the money, Green replied: "Well, I will shoot his windows down too." At the time PG didn't even have the gun in his possesion. It never left the box it was bought in and was "looked after" by his parents in their home in Canvey Island (South East England). This story is repeated by PG and Clifford Davis in the DVD "Peter Green - Man Of The World", that was released last year. The british press blew the story out of all proportion - as they do.

About the royalties - and now I myself might be promoting another untrue story - I read (can't remember where) that Michelle Reynolds recieved the rights to Albatross as a part of her alimony at the divorce from Davis. After the break-up of Splinter Group none of us earthlings know what has happened to the relationship between PG and Michelle Reynolds.
PG's lawyer since 1995 is Catherine Fehler who is a specialist in royalties and showbusines so let's hope that she has continued "the tracking down" of royalties that belongs to him.

Ms Moose

[absinthe_boy]

Given that Peter wrote or co-wrote some *VERY* popular tunes, which are widely available to buy on albums and get occasional radio/TV play....even if he is only recieving a fraction of what's due he is doing OK.

I recall in interview around the beginning of Splinter Group days where he said he would just ask his manager "can I afford this guitar" or "can I afford that car" and the answer was always "yes".

Think back to Syd Barrett, who only recorded one and a half albums with Pink Floyd and a couple of relatively obscure solo records....even in the mid 1980's he was getting over £100,000 a year in royalties* before the compliations of his work came out. That's serious money, especially for over 20 years ago. So Peter Green, with all his hit singles (lest we forget Santanna's BMW makes Green money every time it sells or is played)...even if he's only getting 25% of what he ought to get....he's doing OK...

As for Mich Reynolds, with her connection to Nigel Watson and the aggro there its anyone's guess if there is still a connection to Peter...and its probably stuff we're not supposed to discuss. But I believe she was genuinely working to unravel all the roaylty issues.

*According to a 1985 book I read....forget the title but it exists...promise!

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Ms Moose

Yes, snoot - there certainly is a lot of confusion regarding both the question of royalties and of the "Peter Green brandishing a gun"-incident. The latter having taken on almost myth-like dimensions in the media-history of our guitar-anti-hero.

According to Martin Celmins biography about Green - which is probably the most truthful source - all the gunslinging that took place was verbal and happened during a phone conversation between Green and Clifford Davis.

The british press blew the story out of all proportion - as they do.

Yes the press in England has been known to stoke coals incessantly, when the embers have since burned out. Truth is, I've heard of even further variations on that theme, beyond the two I propped. The one you presented from Celmins book seems to be as sensible sounding as any, and probably the best researched. Unfortunately, blown out of proportion or not, stating the things Green did would get anyone in hot water, if it were to be reported to the authorities. Technically a threat as such is a form of assault in most western countries. As for what ultimately came of it, the fallout had both good and bad aspects, depending on how you choose to view it.

Here's one more for the books ~

Peter Green Biography :: Musician Guide

A Rock Casualty

Upon leaving Fleetwood Mac, Green recorded The End of the Game, essentially an overnight instrumental jam session drenched in guitar wah-wah pedal that contained few moments of real inspiration. "That was my LSD album," Green told Black. "I was trying to reach things that I couldn't before but ... had experienced through LSD and mescaline." Recording of the album began at 10 p.m. and ended at 4 a.m. "We just played away and took the tapes and put it all in some sort of order," keyboardist Zoot Money told Black. "Then it was like, right, ta-ta, hope that was enough."

For Green, the remainder of the 1970s was spent in various states of mental disintegration and menial labor. He accepted an offer to replace the guitarist in Stone the Crows, but pulled out two days before the band was supposed to debut with Green as its new guitarist. After a brief time living in a kibbutz in Tel Aviv, Israel, Green returned to England and became a cemetery gardener, a pathology lab assistant, and a hospital orderly. He began to experience hallucinations that prompted doctors to prescribe electro-convulsive therapy.

He was arrested and incarcerated in Brixton Prison following a 1977 event in which he threatened to shoot his manager, Clifford Davis. "I wanted some money from him 'cos I was living in people's houses or hotels and things," Green told Black. "He said he hasn't got any money; our accountant David Simmons has got it. I said, 'Look, I'll shoot you'---I recently bought a gun from Canada." Even though Green later stated he was joking, Davis called police. While in prison Green was diagnosed as schizophrenic and spent time in a a mental hospital.

Originally Posted by Ms Moose

About the royalties - and now I myself might be promoting another untrue story - I read (can't remember where) that Michelle Reynolds recieved the rights to Albatross as a part of her alimony at the divorce from Davis. After the break-up of Splinter Group none of us earthlings know what has happened to the relationship between PG and Michelle Reynolds.

Albatross? Never heard this, but then again, separating fact from fiction, and the man from the myth, is damn near impossible at this point.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Norton

Seems to me that which ever way you look at it, these three made a great deal of money from their association with FM and PG.

Forgive my tawdriness, but I'm gonna lift from myself elsewhere since I just wrote this ~ but I'm in agreement.

Even with his resurgence in the Splinter Group, the fact that that unit released nine albums in less than that many years sort of hints of a money grab to me. And if there is one thing we ALL know, Peter isn't into green manalishi! I don't mean to cast aspersions recklessly, as those closest around him have also clearly helped him. In fairness, I suppose this remains a two way street in a number of ways, and any of them profiting off of his name and talent at this point may deem it to be perfectly fair and justifiable, since they comprise his inner circle and support arm, and do what they can to keep him in good stead. C'est la vie.

Originally Posted by Norton

Also Mich used to manage the Fleetwood Mac mobile recording studio, at least until the late 90ties... Is it still going?

I know the Mac are cited as having used the Le Mobile Remote Studio truck, stationed out of Carlsbad, California. Exactly which of their stuff I do not know.
http://www.lemobile.com

Also the Rolling Stones Mobile Recording beast, which the group utilized on a number of their projects, was retired to Canada about a decade ago, after seeing a brief second life in NYC. The AIMS Project was created by Bill Wyman back in the late 80's as a vehicle to give up and coming bands a chance to work out of the Mobile Studio and produce top quality demos.


The Mobile Unit on the move -- Wiki

Originally Posted by absinthe_boy

Given that Peter wrote or co-wrote some *VERY* popular tunes, which are widely available to buy on albums and get occasional radio/TV play....even if he is only recieving a fraction of what's due he is doing OK.
So Peter Green, with all his hit singles (lest we forget Santanna's BMW makes Green money every time it sells or is played)...even if he's only getting 25% of what he ought to get....he's doing OK...

I think you're telling it like it pretty much is. Green should be set for life financially, assuming his monies aren't ravaged by others - or himself.

[absinthe_boy]

"Fleetwood Mobile"....wasn't it a specific mobile recording studio which existed from the early 70's well into the 1990's ? I believe a number of important artists used it. Mick instigated it, possibly for recording live shows or studio work while the band were on the road...and Michelle Reynlolds managed it for a number of years, booking its use with the Mac and other bands.

At least that's what I recall.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by absinthe_boy

"Fleetwood Mobile"....wasn't it a specific mobile recording studio which existed from the early 70's well into the 1990's ? I believe a number of important artists used it. Mick instigated it, possibly for recording live shows or studio work while the band were on the road...and Michelle Reynlolds managed it for a number of years, booking its use with the Mac and other bands.

At least that's what I recall.

Well you're gonna have to come up with a few more specifics than that, as wires may be getting crossed here. The Mac were making use of the Rolling Stones Mobile Unit for at least part of their mid era projects, the Welch led productions of Penguin and Mystery To Me to be exact, and possibly for Kiln House (though on this we have yet to get a lockdown). They also have been cited for using Le Mobile, but for what I do not know precisely.

As for the mobile unit Mich Reynolds purportedly managed, on this we clearly need more specific info. I highly doubt it went back to the early 70's since the RSMS was being utilized, but it certainly could have made its debut later, possibly at some point in the B&N era. [?]

[Norton]

Originally Posted by snoot

Well you're gonna have to come up with a few more specifics than that, as wires may be getting crossed here. The Mac were making use of the Rolling Stones Mobile Unit for at least part of their mid era projects, the Welch led productions of Penguin and Mystery To Me to be exact, and possibly for Kiln House (though on this we have yet to get a lockdown). They also have been cited for using Le Mobile, but for what I do not know precisely.

As for the mobile unit Mich Reynolds purportedly managed, on this we clearly need more specific info. I highly doubt it went back to the early 70's since the RSMS was being utilized, but it certainly could have made its debut later, possibly at some point in the B&N era. [?]

The only reference I have ever heard of regarding the 'Fleetwood Mac' mobile recording studio, is in Martin Celmins bio of PG, where it mentions Mich Reynolds as having managed it. But, there is an outfit Fleetwood Mobiles which is very much in existence today:-
http://www.fleetwoodmobiles.com/FLEETWOOD_services.htm

I don't know what the history is, but it seems like a bit of a coincidence!

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Norton

The only reference I have ever heard of regarding the 'Fleetwood Mac' mobile recording studio, is in Martin Celmins bio of PG, where it mentions Mich Reynolds as having managed it. But, there is an outfit Fleetwood Mobiles which is very much in existence today:-
http://www.fleetwoodmobiles.com/FLEETWOOD_services.htm

I don't know what the history is, but it seems like a bit of a coincidence!

I think coincidence is the key word here.

The word "Fleetwood" per a variety of online sources, the first being Dictionary of American Family Names by Oxford University Press:

Definition of Fleetwood

English: probably a habitational name from a lost or unidentified place named with Old English fleot ‘stream’, ‘estuary’ + wudu ‘wood’. The place of this name in Lancashire got its name in the 19th century from its founder, Sir Peter Hesketh Fleetwood, and is not the source of the surname.

Fleetwood - Name Meaning and Origin

The boy's name Fleetwood \f-leet-wood, fle(e)-twood\ is of Old English origin, and its meaning is "woods with the stream". Place name. Band Fleetwood Mac.

Fleetwood References

Fleetwood is a town within the Wyre district of Lancashire, England, lying at the northwest corner of the Fylde. It has a population of 26,840 people as of the 2001 Census. It forms part of the Greater Blackpool conurbation.

UK Post Codes and Counties
County: Lancashire
Post Code: FY7

US Zip Codes
State: NORTH CAROLINA
City: FLEETWOOD

Additional References

Fleetwood, coastal town in Lancashire, in northwest England
Fleetwood, Pennsylvania, borough in Berks County, Pennsylvania, USA
Fleetwood Town Centre, Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Company Info: Ticker, Name, Description

FLEETWOOD ENTERPRISES INC
Exchange: NYSE
Produces manufactured housing and recreational vehicles, including motor homes, travel trailers, folding trailers, slide-in truck campers and related supplies.

Hmmm... how did all this end up in the GREEN forum?

Ah well, I'm not foolish enough to attempt the same thing for "Green"!

[Ms Moose]

......baum!

Ms Moose

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Ms Moose

......baum!

Ms Moose

Got me! If that's the case ....

Definition of Greenbaum

Peter

[Norton]

Snoot says:-

Additional References

Fleetwood, coastal town in Lancashire, in northwest England
Fleetwood, Pennsylvania, borough in Berks County, Pennsylvania, USA
Fleetwood Town Centre, Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Company Info: Ticker, Name, Description

FLEETWOOD ENTERPRISES INC
Exchange: NYSE
Produces manufactured housing and recreational vehicles, including motor homes, travel trailers, folding trailers, slide-in truck campers and related supplies.

Hmmm... how did all this end up in the GREEN forum?

Ah well, I'm not foolish enough to attempt the same thing for "Green"! [/QUOTE]



Snoot, the one reference that you have missed is from the URL that I gave (http://www.fleetwoodmobiles.com/FLEETWOOD_services.htm).
This outfit is all about mobile recording studios... trucks with recording kit...
How many mobile recording outfits existed bearing the Fleetwood name in the company title?

Thereby lies the coincidence.


As for a (weak) link with the Green forum.
Greenbaum= GreenWOOD.. Fleetwood=FleetWOOD (perhaps it should have been Fleetbaum)

nearly a segue.

As for Royalties, did 'Harold' ever ever get credited for anything?