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  #61  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:45 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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Originally Posted by David View Post
There seems to be a personality clash with Lindsey and Ken. I think all the behavioral motives we’ve all proffered are strong possibilities for their estrangement. But I also think there’s a profound aesthetic or musical difference between the two, which happens to remind me of the musical difference between Lindsey and Stevie. Ken’s idea of a great rock song is Hot Blooded by Foreigner. Lindsey’s, not even close. It may seem reductive to some of you, but Foreigner seems emblematic of Ken’s aesthetic: radio-friendly, mainstream, “safe.” These aren’t driving factors in Lindsey’s art. Ken’s ex post facto musical concerns seem to boil down quite often to “I was right, it wasn’t a hit—radio didn’t like it.” It’s exactly the sort of opinion that Lindsey would have had no truck with, the sort of opinion that he spent his career either avoiding or confronting—in Mick, in Christine, in Stevie, in other musicians, in music execs, in the undiscerning public. When Ken writes about Lindsey—it’s been true for some time—he’s mordant and dismissive, as if he wanted to knock the “genius” off his high horse.

I’m going out on a limb here, but if Ken shared Lindsey’s much more adventurous tastes—if from the beginning he loved the Clash and the Talking Heads and the Ramones instead of Foreigner, and if he had been willing to view Fleetwood Mac in a bolder, riskier musical role—their working relationship from 1982 on might have been really different.
but he didn't, and he got fired, or just wasn't re-hired for subsequent work. That's how producing works, Ken, so get over it already. It's also like he seems to think the rest of the band was more on his side (musically, in the way you describe). I mean we know Stevie's been way more about sales figures than art in her solo career and Mick would have done Rumours 2, Rumours 3, Rumours 4 and so on. And Ken would have been happy with that too. It's like Ken blames Lindsey for somehow.....denying him his rightful place as the ongoing architect of FM's sound. I'm sure he sees Christine turning to him for her last solo album as confirmation of how much everyone else in the band was on his side. It was just that pesky SOB Lindsey who messed it all up.
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  #62  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:12 PM
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aleuzzi aleuzzi is offline
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Originally Posted by jbrownsjr View Post
Ken really loves LB, he just has a really strange way of showing it.

Maybe he hates Christine because he really gives her huge props in the book (s).
Hilarious!

And that is interesting re: TANGO. I remember specifically him saying he wasn't asked back because he got into a musical argument with Lindsey. But if he told you otherwise, well, then, there's that same ole' I do/I don't thing going on with him...
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  #63  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:23 PM
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but he didn't, and he got fired, or just wasn't re-hired for subsequent work. That's how producing works, Ken, so get over it already.
A good example of class is Keith Olsen, who is basically responsible for introducing LB and SN to Polydor and then to FM. His work on the white album was exceptional, but he wasn't asked back. From what I recall, Keith liked to prominently feature the bottom end, a point of contention between him and Lindsey once they began talks about Rumours. So, bye Keith. I've never heard him bitch about this.

For what it's worth, the prominent bottom end is what really draws me to the white album. John's creative bass lines really stand out, especially on "Blue Letter," "Rhiannon," "Over My Head," "Say Your Love Me, "Sugar Daddy, " and "World Turning."

And the drums--wow--"World Turning" and "So Afraid" are truly standouts because of Mick's work.
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  #64  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:08 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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A good example of class is Keith Olsen, who is basically responsible for introducing LB and SN to Polydor and then to FM. His work on the white album was exceptional, but he wasn't asked back. From what I recall, Keith liked to prominently feature the bottom end, a point of contention between him and Lindsey once they began talks about Rumours. So, bye Keith. I've never heard him bitch about this.

For what it's worth, the prominent bottom end is what really draws me to the white album. John's creative bass lines really stand out, especially on "Blue Letter," "Rhiannon," "Over My Head," "Say Your Love Me, "Sugar Daddy, " and "World Turning."

And the drums--wow--"World Turning" and "So Afraid" are truly standouts because of Mick's work.
yes. John's playing grounds so many of Stevie's songs especially and gives them a depth they wouldn't otherwise have. I mean, the first couple bars of Dreams and you know what it is from that bass line and drums.
His playing makes Angel a thousand times more than what it is when she does it solo and the focus is on the keyboards. Rhiannon it goes without saying.

THat's my biggest bone of contention with LB's production. He slowly pushed the rhythm section further and further down in the mix. Even some of Chris's playing too.
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  #65  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:03 PM
dreamsunwind dreamsunwind is offline
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Originally Posted by jbrownsjr View Post
Ken really loves LB, he just has a really strange way of showing it.
I actually agree with this, I’m not much of a Ken fan because the way he speaks about the band is always kinda condescending and weird but I’ve always gotten the vibe that to him, Lindsey was by a mile the most ~significant member of the band and he had the most admiration for him. If you ask him any general question about the band he just ends up talking about Lindsey. Almost like a slight fixation lol. But yeah he certainly has a weird way of showing it.
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  #66  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:38 PM
cbBen cbBen is offline
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
THat's my biggest bone of contention with LB's production. He slowly pushed the rhythm section further and further down in the mix. Even some of Chris's playing too.
It's hard to disagree with this. At some point, they started sounding less like a band and more like Lindsey's toolkit. Don't get me wrong, I love the results. But on Say You Will, for example, Mick's drumming doesn't seem to be the same kind of essential ingredient as on the albums from the seventies.

One thing that helped puncture my "Lindsey's the greatest producer on planet earth" bubble was hearing the TISL outtake version of "Thrown Down." I found myself astounded to wonder, "Could this be better than the version Lindsey produced"? It's a rare instance where we have an A-to-B comparison of how two different producers handle the same song; and the Lindsey-produced version, while perhaps better (I don't feel strongly one way or the other), is in any case not a clear far-and-away improvement.

Last edited by cbBen; 12-14-2019 at 03:28 AM..
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  #67  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:34 AM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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I think Ken is just angry that Lindsey never said....we’ll done Ken...we made a great record.
He just wants Lindsey to say thanks, that’s all.
He still loves and admires Lindsey but just wants his thanks.
That reminds me of the whole SYW thing where Lindsey was whining that Stevie never thanked him. I was like, “Oh, Linds, please stop.”
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  #68  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:39 AM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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Originally Posted by lovethemac1 View Post

Maybe he was just jealous of Richard's relationship with Lindsey? Or jealous of Richards gentler personality?
I think he is and that Lindsey has a certain personal loyalty to Richard that he in no way feels towards Ken. Ken is resentful. Look at all the years Lindsey and Richard lived together. I can tell you he and Ken wouldn’t make it in the same abode for 2 weeks,
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  #69  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:44 AM
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I’d be full of anger and residual hate if Lindsey had NOT cut his hair.
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  #70  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cbBen View Post
One thing that helped puncture my "Lindsey's the greatest producer on planet earth" bubble was hearing the TISL outtake version of "Thrown Down." I found myself astounded to wonder, "Could this be better than the version Lindsey produced"? It's a rare instance where we have an A-to-B comparison of how two different producers handle the same song; and the Lindsey-produced version, while perhaps better (I don't feel strongly one way or the other), is in any case not a clear far-and-away improvement.
weren't people here saying that BOTH those versions were arranged and produced by Lindsey? and most seem to like TISL (was it wall of sound?) version better?

SYW version sounds to me like it was produced by Ken, tbh (it's not).
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  #71  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:33 PM
cbBen cbBen is offline
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weren't people here saying that BOTH those versions were arranged and produced by Lindsey?
This would be news to me. I'd love to know.

They are so different, but maybe that's due to the mix rather than to the production.

Lindsey may made the wrong call by going with Needham over Lord-Alge to mix Say You Will. The reason he gives in Destiny Rules (that Lord-Alge, being so in demand, works too quickly) does not make sense. It does not follow that someone will do a better job just because they take longer to do it. Maybe Lord-Alge being in demand is a sign that he does good work, regardless of how quickly he does it.

Last edited by cbBen; 12-14-2019 at 02:36 PM..
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  #72  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:20 PM
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elle elle is offline
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This would be news to me. I'd love to know.

They are so different, but maybe that's due to the mix rather than to the production.

Lindsey may made the wrong call by going with Needham over Lord-Alge to mix Say You Will. The reason he gives in Destiny Rules (that Lord-Alge, being so in demand, works too quickly) does not make sense. It does not follow that someone will do a better job just because they take longer to do it. Maybe Lord-Alge being in demand is a sign that he does good work, regardless of how quickly he does it.
i think DR may paint a distorted picture of these 2 engineers. they are both incredibly accomplished and have tons of work under their belt, especially Needham:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Needham (he mixed/produced breakthrough albums by The Killers, Imagine Dragons, and Walk the Moon, among many others, his discography is impressive)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Lord-Alge (he mixed American Idiot by Green Day)

i think what's under the surface of that argument is your regular push-pull between Stevie and Lindsey - Needham is Lindsey's pick, he has been working with him continuously before and after (he mixed BuckVie and i believe Solo Anthology, most recently), while Lord-Alge is Stevie's pick, she has worked with him a lot. Lindsey =was a producer and wanted someone whose work he liked and was in sync with. Stevie wanted leverage against Lindsey so she wanted her guy. the rest are all excuses.
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  #73  
Old 12-14-2019, 04:39 PM
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I don't care for the Tusk book as much as I liked the Rumours book. Tusk seems rushed. No photos and yes I noticed the timeline difference also.

His comments in the interview are pretty bad. It sounds like since he talks to Mick and John, that he is on the Mick bandwagon when it comes to Lindsey.

It sounds like everything that Stevie said. According to one of Ken's post's, he claimed Stevie told Lindsey, why do a solo album, it won't sell anyway. I feel really bad for Lindsey, talk about beating someone when they are down.
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  #74  
Old 12-14-2019, 05:20 PM
cbBen cbBen is offline
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Originally Posted by elle View Post
i think DR may paint a distorted picture of these 2 engineers. they are both incredibly accomplished and have tons of work under their belt, especially Needham:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Needham (he mixed/produced breakthrough albums by The Killers, Imagine Dragons, and Walk the Moon, among many others, his discography is impressive)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Lord-Alge (he mixed American Idiot by Green Day)

i think what's under the surface of that argument is your regular push-pull between Stevie and Lindsey - Needham is Lindsey's pick, he has been working with him continuously before and after (he mixed BuckVie and i believe Solo Anthology, most recently), while Lord-Alge is Stevie's pick, she has worked with him a lot. Lindsey =was a producer and wanted someone whose work he liked and was in sync with. Stevie wanted leverage against Lindsey so she wanted her guy. the rest are all excuses.
This all makes sense.

Chris Lord-Alge also mixed Out Of The Cradle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Cradle
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  #75  
Old 12-14-2019, 06:33 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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This all makes sense.

Chris Lord-Alge also mixed Out Of The Cradle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Cradle
huh.... interesting given LB's seeming indifference to that album for a long time.. though I was please how well it was represented on his Anthology.
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Old 12-14-2019, 07:21 PM
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