Lesser of 2 evils

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

^^

I think a lot of people don't and that's what scares me. Ultimately I think if you don't know even the basics of what's going on with the candidates and issues then you should not vote. But that's me and that's not going to happen so it doesn't matter what I think.

There are also people who will vote solely because of somebody's stance on social issues like abortion and gay marriage. That's partly why I'd love to see Rudy get the nomination - because there's a huge evangelical arm that will never vote for him.

There was a story on NPR recently talking to Democratic voters about who they intend to vote for. I was heartened to hear many women who said they would not vote for Hillary just because she's a woman. Some women were insulted to even be asked that. I'd like to think that way of thinking is the majority rather than the rule...but I fear it is not.

What about black women, I wonder? Are they behind Obama or Hilary? I'm not behind Hilary just because she is a woman, she frankly isn't progressive enough for me. But I agree with strand that even Obama probably will not get much achieved, like health care and such, in office because of the way the machine is set up. I hope he can prove me wrong.

I don't know why people in this country are so hell bent against any social programs as if they are evil. I think that is actually pretty sick. The whole "tax and spend" talking point bears no weight for me either. Because right now we have spend and spend. We just need someone very different in power and of course a dem. And we need to keep and strengthen the dem majority in congress. Although when one party has all the power it can be scary. I hope they use it wisely when they get it.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

What about black women, I wonder? Are they behind Obama or Hilary? I'm not behind Hilary just because she is a woman, she frankly isn't progressive enough for me. But I agree with strand that even Obama probably will not get much achieved, like health care and such, in office because of the way the machine is set up. I hope he can prove me wrong.

I don't know why people in this country are so hell bent against any social programs as if they are evil. I think that is actually pretty sick. The whole "tax and spend" talking point bears no weight for me either. Because right now we have spend and spend. We just need someone very different in power and of course a dem. And we need to keep and strengthen the dem majority in congress. Although when one party has all the power it can be scary. I hope they use it wisely when they get it.

Well he got most of the black women vote in South Carolina...and crossed race lines...getting a substantial showing among white voters as well. I think it's just as insulting to vote for him solely on race as it would be to vote for Hillary because she's a woman.

He may not be able to change much - but I like his message, he's inspiring people in a way that has not been done in years and it's beautiful and refreshing to me.

Can you imagine if Hillary got the nom and won (which it's unlikely she could win imo) - here's the breakdown of the presidency: Bush Clinton Clinton Bush Bush Clinton. No. Thank. You. A change in IS needed badly - and call me a fool if you want to - but I believe Obama can bring about change. Maybe not Earth shattering fast change - but I think he's a way forward. I'm not saying Hillary wouldn't represent a way forward - but I just don't think she's electable.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

. . . he's inspiring people in a way that has not been done in years and it's beautiful and refreshing to me . . . .

Howard Dean in 04

The D party was on fire for him -- just look at the money he raised for nickle and dime internet donations

George W. Bush in 00

Granted, I did not like W and IMO he failed, but he sure did harp on change and restoring dignity to the WH so Americans could be proud again, etc.

___________________________________________________________

So, IMO, the message is there every time. In this instance, Obama happens to be black and has a great voice - so the package is slightly different, at least to me.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Howard Dean in 04

The D party was on fire for him -- just look at the money he raised for nickle and dime internet donations

George W. Bush in 00

Granted, I did not like W and IMO he failed, but he sure did harp on change and restoring dignity to the WH so Americans could be proud again, etc.

___________________________________________________________

So, IMO, the message is there every time. In this instance, Obama happens to be black and has a great voice - so the package is slightly different, at least to me.

Nope the two are not comparable at all imo. Obama has so surpassed any inspiration and zeal that Dean or Bush inspired.

That is, at least, my observation. He's inspired me and pretty much everyone I know- including some very complacent friends. I know I'm not alone - I mean he's drawing Kennedy comparisons left and right...that's a pretty big statement.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

It is all about personal perception, but I think it is incorrect to say that Bush did not inspire people in 00 and, IMO, in 04, when the popular vote was clearly on his side.

As for Dean, he was heralded as the fresh voice, etc. - much like Obama is now. That energy around Dean helped him raise tens of millions of dollars in record time and from record small amounts.

In the end, I look at the significant people Obama has on his team and they are all lobbyists. I cannot fathom, and history and experience have taught me, that this method means he will be beholden to them, which in turn means it will be the same ole same ole in DC, despite Obama's cult of personality. That and all those fence riding "present votes" just IMO do not match the rhetoric coming out of his mouth in a pretty manner. Bill Clinton was the same way to me. I temember hearing all these great things, but then I looked at his record and was saw it did not support what he was saying; W too.

In the end, none of the people running share my beliefs, though Obama comes the closest to espousing them, no matter his sincerity. So, it will all be about the lesser of two evils for me when iI vote.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In the end, none of the people running share my beliefs, though Obama comes the closest to espousing them, no matter his sincerity. So, it will all be about the lesser of two evils for me when iI vote.

I agree with most of what you've been saying here - nothing is going to change - but my concern is that if McCain or one of the other Republicans gets in, they're going to appoint more SC justices in the mold of Roberts and Scalito (the few moderate to liberal ones that are left are all in their 70s and 80s), and the damage to our image overseas will keep getting worse if our foreign policy doesn't change. Those are the reasons why I'm anxious for a Democrat, any Democrat, to be elected in November. I'm not in love with HC or Obama, however I do think HC's healthcare plan is better - isn't Obama's idea of a national healthcare plan just cutting people checks? What the hell is that?

[skcin]

^ Agreed. It's really not only about how the particular candidate feels about certain things - it's how he/she can & will affect the laws of the nation.

Strand - I think that Bush may have inspired (shudder) many in the republican party, but I do not feel he inspired the country, esp. in '04. IMO, he was voted in for a second term because many people thought if they did not do so, the U.S. would look weak & indecisive about who we wanted to lead our nation. They were stilll scared. This man started a war, and was still hunting for the terrorists, still promising to smoke them out of their holes. "Stay the course, vote for me so we can get the job done, blah blah blah." And people bought it. They BOUGHT it. They figured "well, he got us into this, let's make him get us out." Well, we sure f*cked that up, didn't we?

Howard Dean? Are you kidding? Sure the Dem PARTY was excited about him, but the voters weren't really - not nearly as much as they are for Obama. I'm not fooling myself into thinking that Obama's going to get in there & clean house & make everything better right away. But it's worth a shot - I want to believe that his passion is true, and I trust him a hell of a lot more than any other candidate. I hope that with the Dems in congress, they can get some things done without having a pissing contest over it until it dies.


BTW - Edwards is supposedly dropping out of the race at 1pm EST.

[skcin]

He's out:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/...rds/index.html

Tha figures. I just did one of those "which candidate best matches you" quizes & Edwards was my leader. Followed closely by Obama, then Hillary.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by skcin

He's out:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/...rds/index.html

Tha figures. I just did one of those "which candidate best matches you" quizes & Edwards was my leader. Followed closely by Obama, then Hillary.

They're saying Guiliani is about to quit, too.

[skcin]

^ I believe he called it quits this morning. I honestly cannot believe he (or anyone else) thought he really had a chance, I just can't.

[David]

Originally Posted by skcin

Tha figures. I just did one of those "which candidate best matches you" quizes & Edwards was my leader. Followed closely by Obama, then Hillary.

I did one of those once & it matched me up with John Locke.

Do you remember which one you did? Is it still up?

[skcin]

Originally Posted by skcin

^ I believe he called it quits this morning. I honestly cannot believe he (or anyone else) thought he really had a chance, I just can't.

My mistake, I just read that he'll annouce he's out after the votes are officialy tallied in FL & McCain wins. Why wait, man?

Originally Posted by David

I did one of those once & it matched me up with John Locke.

Do you remember which one you did? Is it still up?

I did this one:
http://www.selectsmart.com/president/2008.html

[JazmenFlowers]

Originally Posted by skcin

He's out:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/...rds/index.html

Tha figures. I just did one of those "which candidate best matches you" quizes & Edwards was my leader. Followed closely by Obama, then Hillary.

agreed.

Originally Posted by skcin

^ I believe he called it quits this morning. I honestly cannot believe he (or anyone else) thought he really had a chance, I just can't.

marry me?

and to weigh in on your question, I think I'd rather one not vote than vote for just anyone.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by skcin

Strand - I think that Bush may have inspired (shudder) many in the republican party, but I do not feel he inspired the country, esp. in '04. IMO, he was voted in for a second term because many people thought if they did not do so, the U.S. would look weak & indecisive about who we wanted to lead our nation. They were stilll scared. This man started a war, and was still hunting for the terrorists, still promising to smoke them out of their holes. "Stay the course, vote for me so we can get the job done, blah blah blah." And people bought it. They BOUGHT it. They figured "well, he got us into this, let's make him get us out." Well, we sure f*cked that up, didn't we?

Howard Dean? Are you kidding? Sure the Dem PARTY was excited about him, but the voters weren't really - not nearly as much as they are for Obama. I'm not fooling myself into thinking that Obama's going to get in there & clean house & make everything better right away. But it's worth a shot - I want to believe that his passion is true, and I trust him a hell of a lot more than any other candidate. I hope that with the Dems in congress, they can get some things done without having a pissing contest over it until it dies.

Yes! Thank you - I was trying to put together a response - but you said what I couldn't think of to say.

Obama was just in Denver today - not one candidate in recent history has been able to do what this guy is doing. He is inspiring people in a different way. I was talking to a woman this morning and she was talking about how Obama gives her goosebumps...she was so passionate!

And this passion is crossing party lines, gender lines, race lines and I think that's one of the many things that makes this so different than Bush or Dean.

Also - the present votes in the Illinois legislature are not "fence sitting" nor are they necessarily a negative thing. I can't pretend to know the inner workings of the Illinois legislative process - but NPR did a pretty good story on what those "present" votes actually meant...I'll see if I can dig that up.

Anyway - that's just my opinion - I see and feel something different in Obama, and I know I'm not alone. I don't have grand illusions that he'll bring about fast and radical change- but I maintain that he'd be a breath of fresh air...and I do feel he's sincere in his want for change. Call me an idealistic fool if you must - but it's the way I feel at this time

[Dreamz19]

Originally Posted by skcin

I have heard that the majority of blacks are democrats - is this true? If so, would they vote for a black republican candidate in the general election? Do you think they would cross party lines just to vote for "one of their own?" I hope not. I hope people stay true to who they are & what they believe.

It's true that the majority of blacks are democrats. Here in Maryland our last Lieutenant Governor was a black republican. He ran for the senate in 2006 and lost a lot of the black vote to a white democrat. So I think blacks are likely to stay within their party lines.