Just Skimmed Through STORMS

[carol7lynn]

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in college, I didn't rely on the doctor at Planned Parenthood to educate me on how to avoid pregnancies, I went to the library and did my research. I wanted to have fun, travel, finish college and start a career so I "controlled" myself. And, I continued that practice all during my reproductive years as a married career woman and avoided accidents that way. Preventive medicine is always "less costly" than curative.

Responsible people know that, they alone, are accountable for their actions/behavior. That is what growing up is all about. If CA had been a minor at the time, I could have understood, her giving the child up for adoption so that she could finish school and establish herself in a legitimate career. But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb. The Stones wrote a song about her type in the 1960s which I find personifies CA to a T:

OUT OF TIME
(Jagger/Richards)

You don't know what's going on
You've been away for far too long
You can't come back and think you are still mine
You're out of touch, my baby
My poor discarded baby
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

Well, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
You are all left out
Out of there without a doubt
'Cause baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

You thought you were a clever girl
Giving up your social whirl
But you can't come back and be the first in line, oh no
You're obsolete my baby
My poor old-fashioned baby
I said baby, baby, baby you're out of time


CarolC

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals....

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb.

Wow, what a lovely non-judgmental person you are!

Yeah, no wonder Stevie didn't treat her like a "sister of the moon", Stevie didn't give up her unwanted babies up for adoption she just had abortions instead

Again, why are you reading this book? Just to fuel your hatred of this woman?

Btw, it really made me laugh that you posted lyrics by those bastions of morality, The Rolling Stones, to prove your point lol!

[lieueitak]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies.

I don't understand how an unplanned pregnancy is "unjustifiable." I don't understand how anyone could believe that Carol Ann's child would be better off being raised by her. Her book may not be completely accurate, but I think we all know what kind of environment she would have exposed her child to, had she raised her: drugs, possible domestic violence, etc. It seems like Carol could barely take care of herself in any real way. How could anyone believe that child would be better off in that situation?

Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

How is putting your child up for adoption not a form of taking responsibility? Abstinence works, sure, but it's all dependent on both parties respecting that boundary. Sometimes, they willingly don't (and naturally, with rape, someone has crossed that line). Birth control also works, but it's not 100%. And it's not always a lack of education that makes it fail. Efficacy is lessened when mixed with certain medicines (not always warned about on labels or by doctors). Or if you don't take it at the right time, that can lessen the efficacy. In theory, Carol Ann could have taken all the precautions, and she still might have ended up pregnant.

If you want to fault her for not doing that, then fine. But "mistakes" happened, and she ended up pregnant. There's no need to belabor that point. It's what she did after finding out that she was pregnant that matters. She could have had an abortion, absolutely. She could have raised the child on her own. Or she could, perhaps most responsibly, placed the child up for adoption so that the baby would be raised in love and in a safe environment.

But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Ah, yes, then we should definitely fault Carol for placing the little girl up for adoption. In a better world, Carol Ann would have realized that the things she was doing weren't great. She would have shaped up and gotten her life together, raised her daughter on her own, and never met Lindsey Buckingham -- thus sparing us her book. There are women who do get their lives together, and that's admirable. But Carol didn't and so, adoption was the best option. Sometimes responsibility is about knowing when you cannot do something (hence, I will never perform brain surgery). Sometimes, being responsible is knowing that you're in over your head and asking for help.

Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them.

And yet, isn't that one of the main criticisms people make about Stevie? How many people on this board have said that Stevie doesn't really take responsibility for her drug addictions? I make that point, not because I agree with that criticism, but because no one in this band is perfect. As fans, we are able to write off some of their character flaws because we love their music and the people they've become.

And I'm not surprised Carol Ann has written the book with a "woe is me" take on it. The majority of things we've heard about Carol Ann previously has been... well, negative, lol. After everything that's been said about her, of course, she'd want to say how innocent she was and such.

Besides -- the main draw of an autobiography/insider's tale is seeing his/her account of events and how he/she sees him/herself. Even in her "lies," we're learning a lot about who Carol Ann is and how she sees herself. The same can be said for Mick Fleetwood's book, as well as any interview Lindsey, Stevie, John, and Christine have ever given. Fleetwood Mac's dynamics are complicated, to say the least. And I think, because of drugs and/or every psychological coping mechanism known to man, we'll never know exactly what happened at any given moment within the band.

Stevie didn't give up her unwanted babies up for adoption she just had abortions instead

My thoughts exactly.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in college, I didn't rely on the doctor at Planned Parenthood to educate me on how to avoid pregnancies, I went to the library and did my research. I wanted to have fun, travel, finish college and start a career so I "controlled" myself. And, I continued that practice all during my reproductive years as a married career woman and avoided accidents that way. Preventive medicine is always "less costly" than curative.

Responsible people know that, they alone, are accountable for their actions/behavior. That is what growing up is all about. If CA had been a minor at the time, I could have understood, her giving the child up for adoption so that she could finish school and establish herself in a legitimate career. But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb. The Stones wrote a song about her type in the 1960s which I find personifies CA to a T:

i dont know what to say to this except that i just threw up in my mouth a little after reading it...

[Tango]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals.

CarolC

I'm trying hard to follow what you are saying. It almost seems like an ad hominem argument- that nothing this woman has to say is reliable because she gave her baby up for adoption? Maybe I am totally reading you wrong. Women's right to choose? Women like her make you ashamed? her type? She didn't get kicked to the curb. She walked away. It took a while, and it took some promptings from a physician who urged her to break the cycle of violence she was living in, who said to her:

"I want to tell you something and I hope that you'll hear my words and think long and hard about it. And what I want to say is this: I see a lot of women come in here with injuries done to them by their husbands or boyfriends and they always go back to their men. And then I've seen a few of the same women come in again- and it's too late for me to help them. They leave here in a body bag. It's not going to stop, Miss Harris. It's going to get worse. I know that you think you love him and that you can stop it, but I honestly doubt if you can. This is very serious, and you need to protect yourself. You need to leave him. Just think about it, OK?"
Storms: My Life With Lindsey Buckingham and Fleetwood Mac (by Carol Ann Harris, page 355.)

Whether you like it or not, it's her right to speak about it, and her story to tell. Christine witnessed it. The young woman was seen in the hospital with marks around her neck, injuries to her scalp. One could imply Stevie tried to talk to her about it. Mick wrote about it. To attack her for seeing to the safe raising of her baby is wrong. This woman revealed a lot of ugliness that most women hide forever, as they are ashamed and think they did wrong and deserved it. I think this book really shows how much Carol Ann Harris has grown, whether I like it or not.


I guess we don't believe
That things could go that far
We all believe in people...
That we think believe in God
Somewhere in the night...
Someone feels the pain
The ones who walk away
Try to love again...
~Stevie Nicks

She walked away. Good for her! And Lindsey got help. He also changed! They BOTH changed! Yes, this book dredges up some ugliness. It provides insights that we never knew before. And it's unsettling. It's chilling. But I do believe her.

[sasja]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in college, I didn't rely on the doctor at Planned Parenthood to educate me on how to avoid pregnancies, I went to the library and did my research. I wanted to have fun, travel, finish college and start a career so I "controlled" myself. And, I continued that practice all during my reproductive years as a married career woman and avoided accidents that way. Preventive medicine is always "less costly" than curative.

Responsible people know that, they alone, are accountable for their actions/behavior. That is what growing up is all about. If CA had been a minor at the time, I could have understood, her giving the child up for adoption so that she could finish school and establish herself in a legitimate career. But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb. The Stones wrote a song about her type in the 1960s which I find personifies CA to a T:

OUT OF TIME
(Jagger/Richards)

You don't know what's going on
You've been away for far too long
You can't come back and think you are still mine
You're out of touch, my baby
My poor discarded baby
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

Well, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
You are all left out
Out of there without a doubt
'Cause baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

You thought you were a clever girl
Giving up your social whirl
But you can't come back and be the first in line, oh no
You're obsolete my baby
My poor old-fashioned baby
I said baby, baby, baby you're out of time


CarolC

Oh wow. Brrr!! I just have to say you sound like someone I'd not enjoy so much around me. Or around my children for that matter.
I was looking for the word to describe how you come across to me in that post, and I will just give you the whole slew of them as they all fit: unsympathetic, unkind, icy, stony, callous, and uncaring. And on top of it, convinced of your own moral superiority.

I hope your Career Life is giving you great satisfaction as I have a hard time imagining your personal life does.

Sasja (Career woman, with friends, a husband, a sex-life AND children by choice)

[BTFLCHLD]

I read the book and quite enjoyed it. I don't doubt what she has written as her experience.

GOD. I love Lindsey!

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by BTFLCHLD

I read the book and quite enjoyed it. I don't doubt what she has written as her experience.

GOD. I love Lindsey!

Good, i'm glad it's a good read... the only thing i fear is like what Dana said... inaccuracies will make me not believe the other stuff.... not sure when my copy will arrive...

[catinthedark]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in college, I didn't rely on the doctor at Planned Parenthood to educate me on how to avoid pregnancies, I went to the library and did my research. I wanted to have fun, travel, finish college and start a career so I "controlled" myself. And, I continued that practice all during my reproductive years as a married career woman and avoided accidents that way. Preventive medicine is always "less costly" than curative.

Responsible people know that, they alone, are accountable for their actions/behavior. That is what growing up is all about. If CA had been a minor at the time, I could have understood, her giving the child up for adoption so that she could finish school and establish herself in a legitimate career. But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender.

holy crap. get off your f*ckin high horse. or else ride it on out of here. you have no right to lecture or judge - either her or anyone here.

you had clearly already made up your mind about CAH before you read this book. fine. i don't care about that. but truly, how exactly can you prove she is anymore wrong, than you can prove she is right?

[Michelle Daya]

the level of intolerance is f__king astounding. lb is not a victim. he chose someone to have a relationship with, live with, spend 7 years with, love and eventually leave. those were his choices. i admire & respect him as a musician but there is no doubt he was not a saint. yes, he has ragged on women from his past in his music & it's blatant, & in interviews. cah has a right to write about it. it's called freedom of speech. she's exercising it & it doesn't make her a bitch, a whore or trash. just as anyone here who is spewing venom is their choice. cah's integrity was questioned and decided long before thiis book came out. why? she dared not to make lb happy, to be his god-forbid ex, to not be stevie nicks. she did drugs. so did he. if it weren't for him, she might never have. yeah, her life got messed up & if she feels the need to write about it, she should. lb's a big boy. i'm sure with everything he's experienced in his 30+ years in rock, his ex's book isn't going to be the thing that rocks him to his core. & as for what anyone's afraid his kids will read, what about what gets written here? his kids are more likely to check out the net then pick up a copy of daddy's ex's book. & putting her down for pregnancy issues? stevie. abortions. ring any bells? but that's ok. she's stevie nicks. wow. just wow.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Michelle Daya

the level of intolerance is f__king astounding. lb is not a victim. he chose someone to have a relationship with, live with, spend 7 years with, love and eventually leave. those were his choices. i admire & respect him as a musician but there is no doubt he was not a saint. yes, he has ragged on women from his past in his music & it's blatant, & in interviews. cah has a right to write about it. it's called freedom of speech. she's exercising it & it doesn't make her a bitch, a whore or trash. just as anyone here who is spewing venom is their choice. cah's integrity was questioned and decided long before thiis book came out. why? she dared not to make lb happy, to be his god-forbid ex, to not be stevie nicks. she did drugs. so did he. if it weren't for him, she might never have. yeah, her life got messed up & if she feels the need to write about it, she should. lb's a big boy. i'm sure with everything he's experienced in his 30+ years in rock, his ex's book isn't going to be the thing that rocks him to his core. & as for what anyone's afraid his kids will read, what about what gets written here? his kids are more likely to check out the net then pick up a copy of daddy's ex's book. & putting her down for pregnancy issues? stevie. abortions. ring any bells? but that's ok. she's stevie nicks. wow. just wow.

So, because his kids may also see stuff about Daddy on the internet, that justifies her writing in detail about LB trying to strangle her?

If she "loved him so deeply" and they had this fabulous seven year romance, where is her loyalty? Where is all the devotion she writes about so much in her book? I dated someone for seven years in College and post, and I still have maintain some level of loyalty to our old relationship. I do not feel the need to tell my husband all the sordid little details of what may or may not have went on in our PERSONAL relationship. I still feel protective towards what we shared. You keep comparing CA to Stevie and Lindsey's relationship, something not many of us in this thread have even done. I do think Lindsey's quotes on his relationship with CAH are relevant, even if you do not. HE SAID that only the first "year or two" with Cheri was any good, but yet stayed with her for almost a decade. HE SAID that he "allowed his relationship with CA to continue even though he knew it was doomed". HE SAID that the "spectre of Stevie disabled several long term relationships he had". (CAH and Cheri, presumably)
People like Ken Callait, who actually witnessed Carol and Lindsey together have said things like "I never thought that relationship was gonna work out. I have seen him with several women and they all ended very unhappily". You choose to believe CA's representation of her fairy tale romance with LB, but discount alot of other valid opinions, including Lindsey's own interpretation of the relationship. That makes no sense to me and is pretty ****ing appauling. I have nothing against the woman personally, but I think there are so many blatant falsehoods in her book, I have a hard time believing any of it. Christine, Stevie, Lindsey and Annie L. have all talked about what happened during the infamous Rolling Stone cover shoot and CA tells a completely different tale.

OT..but why is it necessary to bring up Stevie's alledged abortions in a discussion about CA? One or two people slam Carol, so slamming Stevie is the response? Apples and oranges.

[Rapunzel]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.
CarolC

Wow! Are you for real??? It must be difficult for such a judgmental person like yourself knowing that Stevie used abortion as a form of birth control.

[jkmaletic]

I just finished this book and it was a very interesting read, although I had to wonder, despite the supposed taped conversations and journals kept, how she was able to remember her times with Lindsey so vividly.

I was surprised of all the writing about the abuse she received from Lindsey. It was shocking and disappointing to say the least. I've never been a huge fan of Lindsey's solo career, so I don't know a lot about him. But I wanted to know what YOU guys thought, as obvious Lindsey "fans", of this book. I'm curious.


~Jamie

[michelej1]

I would look at this thread. I think the thing was hashed out pretty throroughly.

http://www.ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/sh...ad.php?t=33136

[jkmaletic]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I would look at this thread. I think the thing was hashed out pretty throroughly.

http://www.ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/sh...ad.php?t=33136

Oh, ok. Thanks - didn't know there was one already.