"I came to bury Caesar, not to praise him."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by sara1998

Thanks for the insight, everyone. I remember Regan in office, but am too young to know what went on. I am sick of hearing the praise of that man, because I know no US president can be put up as high on a pedistal as Regan has been.

Maria

Bingo and Bravo!!!!!

to complete Goldie's intro header "The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones; So let it be with Caesar."

Although I think the inverse is true here, the point is once people are dead and a few years go by it seems people remember the good old days as if they were that, they forget the bad stuff. Maybe in the end, that is a good thing

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Lux

I think it's more lucky than anything. That is when these good memories are at the expense of those who suffered because of this person.

There was a caller on CSPAN this morning that said she found it ironic that Reagan died from the very thing that he had a hand in not funding properly for the relief of others (he cut health programs and federal funding drastically).

[strandinthewind]

Leave it to the NYTimes and an opt-ed by Mikhail Gorbachev to put it in a great way IMO:

Ronald Reagan

June 7, 2004

Ronald Reagan, who died on Saturday after his long battle
with Alzheimer's disease, projected an aura of optimism so radiant that it seemed almost a force of nature. Many people who disagreed with his ideology still liked him for his personality, and that was a source of frustration for his political opponents who knew how much the ideology mattered. Looking back now, we can trace some of the flaws of the current Washington mindset - the tax-cut-driven deficits, the slogan-driven foreign policy - to Mr. Reagan's example. But after more than a decade of political mean-spiritedness, we have to admit that collegiality and good manners are beginning to look pretty attractive.

President Reagan was, of course, far more than some kind of chief executive turned national greeter. He will almost certainly be ranked among the most important presidents of the 20th century, forever linked with the triumph over Communism abroad and the restoration of faith in free markets at home.

He profited from good timing and good luck, coming along when the country was tired of the dour pedantry of the Carter administration, wounded by the Iranian hostage crisis, frustrated by rising unemployment and unyielding inflation. Mr. Reagan's stubborn refusal to accept the permanence of Communism helped end the cold war. He was fortunate to have as his counterpart Mikhail Gorbachev, a Soviet leader ready to acknowledge his society's failings and interested in reducing international tensions.

Mr. Reagan's decision to send marines to Lebanon was disastrous, however, and his invasion of Grenada pure melodrama. His most reckless episode involved the scheme to supply weapons to Iran as ransom for Americans who were being held hostage in Lebanon, and to use the proceeds to illegally finance contra insurgents in Nicaragua.

Mr. Reagan showed little appetite for power, even less for the messy detail of politics. He joked about his work habits. "It's true hard work never killed anybody," he said in 1987. "But I figure, why take the chance?" His
detachment from the day-to-day business of government was seductive for a nation that had tired of watching Mr. Carter micromanage the White House.

The nation's 40th president was absent from the public eye for a long time before his death, but his complicated legacy endures. Although Mr. Reagan did reverse course and approve some tax increases in the face of mounting deficits - in stark contrast to President Bush nowadays - he was
still responsible for turning the Republican Party away from its fiscally conservative roots. The flawed theory behind the Reagan tax cuts, that the ensuing jolt to the economy would bring in enough money to balance the budget, is still espoused by many of the Republican faithful, including President Bush.

One of Mr. Reagan's advisers, David Stockman, later wrote that the real aim of fiscal policy was to create a "strategic deficit" that would slam the door and reduce the size of the federal government. Such thinking is far too prevalent in Washington to this day, and helps explain why plenty of conservatives don't seem all that bothered by the government's inability to balance its books.

When Ronald Reagan was elected, the institution of the presidency and the nation itself seemed to be laboring under a large dark cloud. Into the middle of this malaise came a most improbable chief executive - a former baseball announcer, pitchman for General Electric, Hollywood bon vivant and two-term California governor with one uncomplicated message: There was no problem that could not be solved if Americans would only believe in themselves. At the time, it was something the nation needed to hear. Today, we live in an era defined by that particular kind of simplicity, which expresses itself in semi-detached leadership and a black-and-white view of the world. Gray is beginning to look a lot more attractive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/07/op...4c0be2e2f1cd12

[strandinthewind]

from http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/07/news...reut/index.htm

'Reaganomics' remembered

Former president's tax-cutting, deficit-running legacy remains hotly debated.
June 7, 2004: 7:54 AM EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Few leaders have whole movements named for them, especially one as emotionally laden as "Reaganomics" -- the late President Ronald Reagan's blend of tax cuts and massive military spending that got the economy moving again but tripled the nation's debt.

It was a policy former President Bill Clinton dubbed "reckless" as he pressed to use budget surpluses to pay down debt instead of cutting taxes.

Reagan's prescription, coupled with a drive to lighten government's regulatory hand, was denounced as "trickle-down economics" by detractors who believed tax cuts for the wealthy would mean only crumbs for the poor.

But its supporters counter that it helped snap the economy out of a lethargy that had reigned for much of the 1970s.

The U.S. economy expanded steadily from late 1982 to July 1990, creating nearly 20 million jobs and triggering a boom in stock markets that carried on until 2000.

Nonetheless, nearly a quarter-century after Reagan was first elected in 1980 to the first of his two four-year terms, his economic legacy remains deeply polarizing.

Whether Reaganomics was good or bad for America, fair or unfair to different income groups, may never be resolved.

"The disagreement over the 1980s ... will almost certainly become a prominent feature of intellectual life," wrote Reaganomics proponent Robert Bartley in his book "The Seven Fat Years."

The debate has its echoes under the administration of President Bush, who has presided over big tax cuts and a return to deficits. However, that massive fiscal stimulus seems now to be paying off with the recovery from the 2001 slump at last kicking into high gear.

Stomping out inflation
Veterans of the Reagan administrations and conservative scholars say the bold policy helped end a period of malaise in the 1970s when inflation soared and interest rates were sky high.

Critics point to massive debts of the era -- the country owed more than $3 trillion by the end of the decade -- and say Reaganomics triggered a "decade of greed" with Wall Street traders in red suspenders grown rich on bond dealing.

Officially, the Reagan doctrine was known as supply-side economics, a policy based on the expectation that big cuts in marginal tax rates would mean workers would keep -- and spend -- more of their wages, thus creating the need for more production. This would lead to more investment and more jobs.

It would also generate rapidly growing output that would ease inflationary pressures and stimulate a greater flow of revenues to keep budget deficits in check.

William Niskanen, former acting chairman of President Reagan's Council of Economic Advisers who is now chairman of Washington-based think tank the Cato Institute, said much -- but perhaps not all -- of the theory worked.

One reason is that supply-side stimulus was implemented at the same time as Reagan began a vast military buildup now credited with helping trigger the collapse of the Soviet Union by simply out-spending it.

"The two greatest accomplishments of the Reagan era were breaking the back of inflation and substantially reducing marginal tax rates," Niskanen said. "One of the major charges is that there was a big accumulation of debt and that is accurate."

"But I would contend that ending the Cold War and breaking the back of inflation made it worthwhile," he added.

In 1980 when Reagan was elected, inflation was running at 13-1/2 percent annually. It was under 5 percent when he left office in 1989.

Ending 19% interest rates
Under the guidance of cigar-chomping former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker, the federal funds rate that influences lending rates throughout the economy soared to 19 percent in 1981 -- compared with today's 1 percent -- and the economy slid deep into recession before recovering in late 1982.

"That tight money policy, first under Volcker and then under (current Fed Chairman Alan) Greenspan could not have been done without strong backing from the president," Niskanen said. "Reagan backed up Volcker throughout that politically difficult time until growth finally resumed in November 1982."

The offsetting influence against tight money, and a key part of Reaganomics, was a dramatic reduction in tax rates. From a peak of 70 percent when he took office, the top marginal rate was slashed to 28 percent for most working Americans.

Niskanen said it was "a bum rap" to claim the benefits of tax cuts went to the wealthy while the debt burden was shared by all.

"The actions taken initially in 1981 set us on a sustainable growth path and they were absolutely necessary to get on to that path," he added. Remarkably, the will to apply the stern medicine of stiff interest rates and to risk cutting taxes so dramatically came from a president who received small credit for grand thinking.

"Reagan was always too casually dismissed by intellectuals who missed the point that he has extraordinarily good convictions," Niskanen said. "I don't know where he got his convictions because he wasn't greatly interested in analysis, but they were extremely good."

[strandinthewind]

A President Who Listened

June 7, 2004
By MIKHAIL GORBACHEV

MOSCOW - I have just sent to Nancy Reagan a letter of condolence for the passing of Ronald Reagan. The 40th president of the United States was an extraordinary man who in his long life saw moments of triumph, who had his ups and downs and experienced the happiness of true love.

It so happened that his second term as president coincided with the emergence of a new Soviet leadership - a coincidence that may seem accidental but that was in effect a prologue to momentous events in world history.

Ronald Reagan's first term as president had been dedicated to restoring America's self-confidence. He appealed to the traditions and optimism of the people, to the American dream, and he regarded as his main task strengthening the economy and the military might of the United States. This was accompanied by confrontational rhetoric toward the Soviet Union, and more than rhetoric - by a number of actions that caused concern both in our country and among many people throughout the world. It seemed that the most important thing about Reagan was his anti-Communism and his reputation as a hawk who saw the Soviet Union as an "evil empire."

Yet his second term as president emphasized a different set of goals. I think he understood that it is the peacemakers, above all, who earn a place in history. This was consistent with his convictions based on experience, intuition and love of life. In this he was supported by Nancy - his wife and friend, whose role will, I am sure, be duly appreciated.

At our first meeting in Geneva in 1985 I represented a new, changing Soviet Union. Of course, the new Soviet leadership could have continued in the old ways. But we chose a different path, because we saw the critical problems of our country and the urgent need to step back from the edge of the abyss to which the nuclear arms race was pushing mankind.

The dialogue that President Reagan and I started was difficult. To reach agreement, particularly on arms control and security, we had to overcome mistrust and the barriers of numerous problems and prejudices.

I don't know whether we would have been able to agree and to insist on the implementation of our agreements with a different person at the helm of American government. True, Reagan was a man of the right. But, while adhering to his convictions, with which one could agree or disagree, he was not dogmatic; he was looking for negotiations and cooperation. And this was the most important thing to me: he had the trust of the American people.

In the final outcome, our insistence on dialogue proved fully justified. At a White House ceremony in 1987, we signed the intermediate-range nuclear forces treaty, which launched the process of real arms reduction. And, even though we saw the road to a world free of nuclear weapons differently, the very fact of setting this goal in 1986 in Reykjavik helped to break the momentum of the arms race.

While addressing these vital tasks, we changed the nature of relations between our two countries, moving step by step to build trust and to test it by concrete deeds. And in the process, we - and our views - were changing too. I believe it was not an accident that during his visit to Moscow in the summer of 1988 President Reagan said, in reply to a reporter's question, that he did not regard the perestroika-era Soviet Union as an evil empire.

I think that the main lesson of those years is the need for dialogue, which must not be broken off whatever the challenges and complications we have to face. Meeting with Ronald Reagan in subsequent years I saw that this was how he understood our legacy to the new generation of political leaders.

The personal rapport that emerged between us over the years helped me to appreciate Ronald Reagan's human qualities. A true leader, a man of his word and an optimist, he traveled the journey of his life with dignity and faced courageously the cruel disease that darkened his final years. He has earned a place in history and in people's hearts.

Mikhail Gorbachev is the former president of the Soviet Union. This article was translated by Pavel Palazhchenko from the Russian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/07/op...6641b3a2fc97cc

[gldstwmn]

Here's Greg Palast's take on it:

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=336&row=0

KILLER, COWARD, CON-MAN
GOOD RIDDANCE, GIPPER ...
MORE PROOF ONLY THE GOOD DIE YOUNG
Sunday, June 6, 2004


by Greg Palast

You're not going to like this. You shouldn't speak ill of the dead. But in this case, someone's got to.

Ronald Reagan was a conman. Reagan was a coward. Reagan was a killer.

In 1987, I found myself stuck in a crappy little town in Nicaragua named Chaguitillo. The people were kind enough, though hungry, except for one surly young man. His wife had just died of tuberculosis.

People don't die of TB if they get some antibiotics. But Ronald Reagan, big hearted guy that he was, had put a lock-down embargo on medicine to Nicaragua because he didn't like the government that the people there had elected.

Ronnie grinned and cracked jokes while the young woman's lungs filled up and she stopped breathing. Reagan flashed that B-movie grin while they buried the mother of three.

And when Hezbollah terrorists struck and murdered hundreds of American marines in their sleep in Lebanon, the TV warrior ran away like a whipped dog … then turned around and invaded Grenada. That little Club Med war was a murderous PR stunt so Ronnie could hold parades for gunning down Cubans building an airport.

I remember Nancy, a skull and crossbones prancing around in designer dresses, some of the "gifts" that flowed to the Reagans -- from hats to million-dollar homes -- from cronies well compensated with government loot. It used to be called bribery.

And all the while, Grandpa grinned, the grandfather who bleated on about "family values" but didn't bother to see his own grandchildren.

The New York Times today, in its canned obit, wrote that Reagan projected, "faith in small town America" and "old-time values." "Values" my ass. It was union busting and a declaration of war on the poor and anyone who couldn't buy designer dresses. It was the New Meanness, bringing starvation back to America so that every millionaire could get another million.

"Small town" values? From the movie star of the Pacific Palisades, the Malibu mogul? I want to throw up.

And all the while, in the White House basement, as his brain boiled away, his last conscious act was to condone a coup d'etat against our elected Congress. Reagan's Defense Secretary Casper the Ghost Weinberger with the crazed Colonel, Ollie North, plotted to give guns to the Monster of the Mideast, Ayatolla Khomeini.

Reagan's boys called Jimmy Carter a weanie and a wuss although Carter wouldn't give an inch to the Ayatolla. Reagan, with that film-fantasy tough-guy con in front of cameras, went begging like a coward cockroach to Khomeini pleading on bended knee for the release of our hostages.

Ollie North flew into Iran with a birthday cake for the maniac mullah -- no kidding --in the shape of a key. The key to Ronnie's heart.

Then the Reagan roaches mixed their cowardice with crime: taking cash from the hostage-takers to buy guns for the "contras" - the drug-runners of Nicaragua posing as freedom fighters.

I remember as a student in Berkeley the words screeching out of the bullhorn, "The Governor of the State of California, Ronald Reagan, hereby orders this demonstration to disperse" … and then came the teargas and the truncheons. And all the while, that fang-hiding grin from the Gipper.

In Chaguitillo, all night long, the farmers stayed awake to guard their kids from attack from Reagan's Contra terrorists. The farmers weren't even Sandinistas, those 'Commies' that our cracked-brained President told us were 'only a 48-hour drive from Texas.' What the hell would they want with Texas, anyway?

Nevertheless, the farmers, and their families, were Ronnie's targets.

In the deserted darkness of Chaguitillo, a TV blared. Weirdly, it was that third-rate gangster movie, "Brother Rat." Starring Ronald Reagan.

Well, my friends, you can rest easier tonight: the Rat is dead.

Killer, coward, conman. Ronald Reagan, good-bye and good riddance.

Greg Palast is author of the New York Times bestseller, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. www.GregPalast.com

[dissention]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Ronald Reagan was a conman. Reagan was a coward. Reagan was a killer.

That sums him up perfectly. Bravo.

Enough with the "aura of optimism" or "his radiant personality" bull****. Talk about what he did and what he didn't do, that's what is important. While the rest of the nation falls over and pees itself over this dog, I'll sit back and roll my eyes. Because that's what this three-ring circus is: ridiculous.

[dissention]

The real Reagan record:

1) Illegally dealt with the Iranians to have them hold the American hostages until after the elections, so as to ensure success in the elections. Sent George Bush and Mitchell to Paris to negotiate the deal that also opened exchanges of arms through Israeli shipping in exchange for cash that could be left unaccounted, and thus transferred to the Nicaraguan war. This act of treason holds a death penalty, but went underreported in spite of witness by two Iranian ex-Presidents, an Israeli ex-President, and the nation's own GAO.

2) Sent arms to both Iraq and Iran, including chemical weapons, making those two countries the two biggest US arms trading partners at precisely the time when it was illegal to trade with either due to both US and UN laws.

3) Used drug trafficers to transport illegal arms to Nicaragua, allowing a massive and immediate increase in cocain traffic into Arizona and California.

4) Illegally used the CIA to mine harbors and ferry Contra troops in Nicragua.

5) Lied about all of this activity before Congress, and had his Secretary of Defense lie as well.

6) Made George Bush his drug czar and terrorist czar, upon which Bush oversaw the entire operation of trading arms to terrorists and allowing drug cartels free airspace in exchange for illegally smuggling arms to terrorists in Nicaragua.

7) Oversaw the biggest example of state sponsored terrorism in US history, by supporting ex-Samoza National Guard thugs in Nicaragua who were totally unsupported by their own people, and thus who systematically murdered tens of thousands of border farmers.

8) Removed the Jimmy Carter mandate that all US support was based upon valid human rights records, allowing for right wing nationalist thugs to run free in Haiti, San Salvador, Hondorus and Nicaragua.

9) Took the world to a dangerous brink of nuclear war, and then used that as an excuse for claiming sole credit for the USSR breaking up, when in fact it was an economic issue in the USSR that forced the breakup.

10) Put nuclear missile into Europe, violating the very prevision that was the settlement to the Cuban missile crisis.

11) Instigated trickle-down economics. Within the first year of the policy, we were in a depression caused by the policy. The 27% cut was slewed two to one in favor of those making over $200,000 per year, in percentages, and far more in real dollars. By the end of the second year, increases in state and local taxes more than made up for the cut for the middle class. Then Reagan increased the Social Security tax, doubling effective tax on the middle income, and widening the disparity.

12) Wages throughout Reagan/Bush remained negative in real dollars for the next 12 years, the longest and worst growth performance in middle class wages in US history. Average national growth was the lowest since the early 30s. Trickle down is proven to be the worst economic idea is US history when the squeeze on savings and the drain on investment capital force another recession in 1990.

13) Lied about the HUD scandal that was a mega-billion dollar handout to Republican contributors. Said, 58 times, before the Senate in the HUD scandal, "I don't remember," including in reference to the name of his own Secretary of Defense.

14) Appointed some of the worst strict constructionists to the Supreme Court, leading us to the move whereby guys like W are appointed President, and men found innocent of murder in subsequent investigations are allowed to die on death row due to no appeal process.

15) Oversaw the law that removed an FCC restriction upon fairness on the airwaves, ensuring that big business money would make the AM stations into 24 hour per day propaganda operatives and allowing the slow erosion of news on TV to what it is today.

16) Broke labor unions by striking first at the Air Traffic Controllers, leading to massive safety shortfalls in the air industry, and more importantly, a slow erosion of US worker wages and benefits.

17) Reduced clean water and air standards. Reduced labor safety standards.

18) Increased the defense budget to 240% previous levels, bankrupting the national treasury in the face of trickle-down.

19) Deregulated Banking and Credit Bureaus, leading to the 800 billion dollar bailout of the early 90s when the results of that deregulation forced the middle class to pay off rich folk for cheating us.

20) Declared ketchup to be a vegetable, and claimed trees caused air pollution...

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

20) Declared ketchup to be a vegetable, and claimed trees caused air pollution...

http://sneakykitchen.com/Ideas/ketchup.htm

[CarneVaca]

I'd have to think about it for days to come up with something I liked about Reagan. Well, I might have to think about it forever.

But I will say this: Reagan never struck me as fundamentally evil the day Dubya and his daddy always have.

In fact, I almost miss the simplicity of those quaint "us vs. the reds" days.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

http://sneakykitchen.com/Ideas/ketchup.htm

Ketchup is not a vegetable. If anything, it's a sweet. There's so much sugar in ketchup it isn't edible.

[chiliD]

I got lost through the thread...

Has anyone brought up the theory that the Republican Party was behind the John Lennon assassination? That with Reagan coming into office and Lennon coming back into public life, the Republicans wanted Lennon out of the way due to his publicly anti-"establishment" (read: Nixon/Republican) views earlier in the '70's.

I'm sorry for the family's loss, but I'm not sad to see Reagan pass on...he was a bad actor, a bad Governor and a worse President.

I have serious doubts he was even lucid during his second term. Daddy Bush seemed to be at the control of the "puppet strings" attached to Ronnie those last four years. The Bush family is scary...VERY scary...the sooner we get them out of power, the better for all of us.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by chiliD

I got lost through the thread...

Has anyone brought up the theory that the Republican Party was behind the John Lennon assassination? That with Reagan coming into office and Lennon coming back into public life, the Republicans wanted Lennon out of the way due to his publicly anti-"establishment" (read: Nixon/Republican) views earlier in the '70's.

I'm sorry for the family's loss, but I'm not sad to see Reagan pass on...he was a bad actor, a bad Governor and a worse President.

I have serious doubts he was even lucid during his second term. Daddy Bush seemed to be at the control of the "puppet strings" attached to Ronnie those last four years. The Bush family is scary...VERY scary...the sooner we get them out of power, the better for all of us.

I never heard that Lennon theory, but I wouldn't put anything past those bastards.

As for Reagan, his doctor told him that he was showing signs of Altzheimers three years into his first, I can only imagine how it progressed the next five years. But, that's neither here nor there because all he did was read the teleprompter and sign the bills the Rethugs put in front of him.

Now, as for the Bushes, I agree. The Bushes remind me of Charles Manson and their supporters remind me of the Manson family.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

It was the New Meanness.

I think the worst thing about Reagan overall was the idea listed above.

Reagan actively wanted to snip 1956 through 1980 right out of history and just forget that the "awakening" of America ever happened. People then had carte blache to treat everyone else who didn't live up to the moral standards of the 1948 like ****- meaning gays, the poor, anyone who committed or (even more importantly) suspected of committing any kind of crime, free thinkers, those who opposed authoritarian abuse, etc. It was a really deep, dark reversal that this country has still not recovered from.

I remember being in high school during the absolute height of Reagan/Falwell salivation central. Dudes would come to school in suits, praising Reaganomics and the Moral Majority without even understanding what the policies were, who was being disenfranchised and the horrifying consequences to follow. It was pathetic.

Nixon definitely was evil- but his evil came from desiring power and devotion. Reagan didn't want anyone to love him, he didn't care. He was evil because he wanted to force his morality on the rest of the world. Forget the fact that the idiot hadn't advanced mentally since 1941- everyone else could f**k off and go straight to hell.

Reagan really WAS the beginning of true hypocrisy in politics. He was an awful man who never should have been in power. The only people he ever helped were the wealthy, all the while instilling shame in the masses to silence them from noticing the incredible shift of wealth, not to mention all the other evil things that were going on.

While I could care less whether or not Reagan is alive or dead (he already did all his damage), I would have liked him to kick the bucket after the election. You just know the republican convention is going to have a ten hour suckfest trying to manipulate the public into voting for scuzzbag Dubya.

On the other hand, at least he didn't die during October/November when it could have REALLY done some damage. Post 2000 America's short attention span can't even hold onto images for more than a week at best. Maybe Britney will get caught on tape or Paris Hilton will get married to Nick Carter .

[dissention]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Maybe Britney will get caught on tape or Paris Hilton will get married to Nick Carter .

And it will be blamed on the liberals.